Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere

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Does Nos need work? Yes

Why do we have it in game? It adds a different dimension to warfare that goes on in Eve, beyond the "pew-pew... You're dead" routine.

So I say keep Nos, just address some of the issues with the mechanic to make it more dynamic.

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Originally by: murder one

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We have a module that attacks a ships capacitor directly: the neutralizer. There is a skill to increase the efficiency of the neutralizer, and all current bonuses that apply to Nos apply to Neuts as well.

I think that if you are able to attack a ships capacitor directly, you should at least have to endure some cost of your own, since you're bypassing their armor, speed, sig radius, resists and everything else.

With Nos not only do you do all of that, but you also increase your own cap, so fitting a Nos has zero drawback. Don't we already have a perfectly useful anti-cap weapon with the Neut? What do we need Nos for?

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Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri

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You need NoS to cancle out the effeciency of a Neut. So you have no gain but instead of hitting like 2 NoS you hit like 4-5 with NoS + Neut Combos.

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Originally by: SUPER FREAK

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And again an other NOS threat.

They work fine, don't touch them!
(I fly a NOS droneship)
Move along, nothing to read
(It makes me pwn, shut up about NOS nerf)

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri

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You need NoS to cancle out the effeciency of a Neut. So you have no gain but instead of hitting like 2 NoS you hit like 4-5 with NoS + Neut Combos.

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That. At least the specialized nos ships won't work with neuts alone.

Also, too add to this: while NOS is quite uber in solo - small gang in larger gangs it's virtually useless. Ships die before their cap is dry (capitals excluded).

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Originally by: NiiKleagh

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Edited by: NiiKleagh on 06/06/2007 11:45:31
I'm trying to look at the big picture: effects and balances in the game.

NOS are tough, yes, but they have their counter: Passive Tanking missile boats.

Don't whine just because you don't fly one. Up until the advent of the Drake, let's face it: Caldari was rarely used in pvp other than in support. Ravens at a distance worked, and some pilots choose to fly the Crow, but due to the 'nerf' they take when fitting a web and a scram, Caldari ships just weren't seen as much.

Take a Drake out, even against a Domi, and the drones will drop despite the Drake losing its capacitor. Then where does the Domi, or any NOS ship, lie? In deep kimshi, that's where.

Moreover, there is no doubt Amarr have cap problems once a true "pew-pew" ship is made. If they're going to continue to need to use that much cap just to play your 'pew-pew' type of game, they're going to need to get it from somewhere - your ship might just be the trick.

NOS's don't take much cap - not like a neutralizer - and both are a 'nerf' to fit in as far as doing damage.

People complaining because they either choose to fly the wrong ship, consistently, or chose not to train up an aspect of the game that would allow them to counter whatever it is they're complaining about is getting old.

I'm happy that Drakes can passive tank, I'm happy that NOS's exist, and I think it sucks that Gallente can't put out more drones into space anymore. (I have no clue wth Minnie ships are trying to do...)

So I argue to keep it interesting: do not nerf diversity.

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Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri

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Yes it can be pretty uber solo only because the drawback is no DPS. None the less, those who choose to run NoS/Neut combos are the best way to cripple ones cap opposed to all NoS. Being so many now run cap injectors to sustain massive tanks and or to counter NoS ships. Neuts would be the ideal way to counter cap injectors being they obviously neutralize more cap after the injection.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Originally by: NiiKleagh

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Edited by: NiiKleagh on 06/06/2007 11:45:31
I'm trying to look at the big picture: effects and balances in the game.

NOS are tough, yes, but they have their counter: Passive Tanking missile boats.

Don't whine just because you don't fly one. Up until the advent of the Drake, let's face it: Caldari was rarely used in pvp other than in support. Ravens at a distance worked, and some pilots choose to fly the Crow, but due to the 'nerf' they take when fitting a web and a scram, Caldari ships just weren't seen as much.

Take a Drake out, even against a Domi, and the drones will drop despite the Drake losing its capacitor. Then where does the Domi, or any NOS ship, lie? In deep kimshi, that's where.

Moreover, there is no doubt Amarr have cap problems once a true "pew-pew" ship is made. If they're going to continue to need to use that much cap just to play your 'pew-pew' type of game, they're going to need to get it from somewhere - your ship might just be the trick.

NOS's don't take much cap - not like a neutralizer - and both are a 'nerf' to fit in as far as doing damage.

People complaining because they either choose to fly the wrong ship, consistently, or chose not to train up an aspect of the game that would allow them to counter whatever it is they're complaining about is getting old.

I'm happy that Drakes can passive tank, I'm happy that NOS's exist, and I think it sucks that Gallente can't put out more drones into space anymore. (I have no clue wth Minnie ships are trying to do...)

So I argue to keep it interesting: do not nerf diversity.

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(a) CCP is slightly nerfing passive BC tanks, since they obviously consider that passive tanking should not outtank armour tanking which takes cap and is there suspect to NOS, to neuts, and to cap charges running out.
(b) A Drake definitely won't kill a nosdomi. A passive tanked drake is only really good at surviving, not at tackling and killing things, it ruins the tank. The nosdomi can just warp off, since the drake can't scramble him. Even if the drake had a scrambler, it takes cap to operate. Duh.
(c) Against all ships which are not a Drake, NOS+Neuts add to your effective DPS, since a ship without cap cannot repair any damage. If I do 400DPS and my opponent can tank 450, i'm getting nowhere. If I do 24 DPS (like, small AC), and my opponent can tank 0 DPS due to having 0 cap, he's dead. It doesn't "nerf" damage.
(d) If you're saying "there's one ship with one setup as a counter" (which is getting a slight nerf anyway, check test server), you're arguing against diversity ;P
(e) If NOS makes NOS+cap injectors or cap injector a must-fit, then, it kills diversity, and according to your logic, must go away.

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Originally by: Earthan

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is small fights.

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Originally by: murder one

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We have a module that attacks a ships capacitor directly: the neutralizer. There is a skill to increase the efficiency of the neutralizer, and all current bonuses that apply to Nos apply to Neuts as well.

I think that if you are able to attack a ships capacitor directly, you should at least have to endure some cost of your own, since you're bypassing their armor, speed, sig radius, resists and everything else.

With Nos not only do you do all of that, but you also increase your own cap, so fitting a Nos has zero drawback. Don't we already have a perfectly useful anti-cap weapon with the Neut? What do we need Nos for?

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Originally by: Exlegion

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I understand you wanting Nos nerfed because you don't see any benefits to it. However, there are players such as myself that do see the benefit of using Nos over Neutralizers. I use them mostly against mission NPC's. Yes, yes, I know, you don't like missions and they should be nerfed as well. That aside, using neutralizers on NPC's actually hurts the mission runner since NPC's seem to run on an unlimited supply of capacitor. While the Nos, although does not drain cap 100% does help the player survive that much more by adding a little more cap to his/her reserve.

My point is, there are many mods I don't use in-game, but I recognize the value that they add in the form of variety. But what I'll refrain from is asking to have it removed from the game because I see no benefit to me personally.

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Originally by: Vyger

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If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner?

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Originally by: Icome4u

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NOS should really have a penality... It's to much of a IWIN button...

Or give us capital NOS for carriers and MS.

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Originally by: murder one

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Exlegion: you're right. I was only considering Nos with respect to it's use in PVP, and I hadn't given PVE any thought. I agree that we shouldn't remove Nos from the game due to that. Frankly it's the only decent reason anyone has given to me for this entire thread. And it's completely valid.

I think that we should find another way to nerf Nos in PVP then, maybe a combination of stacking nerf when applied to targets (similar to how damps work) and a limit to how many can be fit on a ship by assigning utility slots.

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Originally by: Exlegion

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Originally by: murder one

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Exlegion: you're right. I was only considering Nos with respect to it's use in PVP, and I hadn't given PVE any thought. I agree that we shouldn't remove Nos from the game due to that. Frankly it's the only decent reason anyone has given to me for this entire thread. And it's completely valid.

I think that we should find another way to nerf Nos in PVP then, maybe a combination of stacking nerf when applied to targets (similar to how damps work) and a limit to how many can be fit on a ship by assigning utility slots.

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Hmmm, you got me thinking... Nos actually isn't overpowered at all when used in PVE. But it is when it comes to PVP. Why? Because NPC's somehow rely on an untouched reserve amount. So then, why not have that same "immunity" code that NPC's get be applied to players? When I nos an NPC it will only benefit me for 1 or 2 cycles max. I might as well turn Nos on a different target at that point. Make it something along the lines of Nos draining 10-30% of a player's cap and that's it. The rest is untouched no matter how many cycles a Nos goes through during a fight. If a player's cap is below the set threshold then no Nos can affect it. Just a thought.

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