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Earthan
Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.06.05 18:46:00 -
[1]
I think a lot of problems are accossiated with PVE being what it is these days. IT feels very fast like griniding and boring.I think the risk is much to low, and therefore its boring, i think there are very wrong "tricks" that ruin all the risk/excitment.
1-Make npcs battlehips and cruisers warp disrupt and often.Its vital for risk.I remember in old times npcing was much more fun and risky cause most npcs were warp scrmbling.
2-Make npcs more random, make some spawns that ar eimpossible to defeat alone so you gotta escape or call friends.Make some other npcs sometimes liek for example angel expedition in serpernts space, so your 2 types tank cant tank it so well...
3- Get rid of all the "one person tanking tricks" in belts and in complexes.I think its a huge ruining factor, it makes everything risk less and boring very fast.Make it npcs change targets and in belts call for reinforcements if battle lasts to long.In plexes make it npc change targets. a 10/10 plex should be hard requiring many experienced, well equiped player, remote repairing each other etc. Atm its a joke , in belt you can nearly mine afk if one person is tanking. In 10/10 plexes one small ships can tank it all , so you can do the whole plex with 2-3 dmg delaers, 1 tanking ship. This all results in pure boredom, in a hellish grind.
I remmber in old times when those tricks werent known even mining in 0.0 was fun cause you had to kill spawns, you never knew where it could respawn, who it would target, escort and miners alike had to be all time carefull...
Apart from fun problem imho we can solve at least partially other problems:
1-It would be ahuge hit to isk farmers.They woudlnt be able to do it on multiple accounts + it woudl get risky.
2-Inflation/isk sink.Poeple would again die to pve also, like it was in old past.You had to be good to make isk in 0.0 , not only be good in pvp... -
Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.05 19:41:00 -
[2]
More people losing ships == more people grinding to get ISK to purchase ships. Make it too likely to lose ships and they just do less difficult missions/complexes/rats. Then they get bored and quit
You are advocating FORCING people to grind to recover losses, not stopping grind. If someone has to replace ships by running less profitable ventures they just won't play or grind lower stuff.
What is it exactly you are trying to do? It won't hurt farmers at all, since they don't care if they grind 10/10s or 1/10s. It will hurt and drive off more casual players. <-----------> Factional Warfare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.05 19:45:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby More people losing ships == more people grinding to get ISK to purchase ships. Make it too likely to lose ships and they just do less difficult missions/complexes/rats. Then they get bored and quit
You are advocating FORCING people to grind to recover losses, not stopping grind. If someone has to replace ships by running less profitable ventures they just won't play or grind lower stuff.
What is it exactly you are trying to do? It won't hurt farmers at all, since they don't care if they grind 10/10s or 1/10s. It will hurt and drive off more casual players.
Anaalys hits you perfectly wrecking for complete...errrrm,
damn, but yeah, she sank the argument for it that I had... I agree with her now.. haha -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.06.05 19:45:00 -
[4]
PvP missions is the cure to the boredom.
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Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.05 20:00:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
PvP missions is the cure to the boredom.
Roll on Factional Warfare, I hope... --------
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Gong
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Posted - 2007.06.05 20:11:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Gong on 05/06/2007 20:11:33 Everything that is repetitive feels boring after some time. Most people rat to make isk. They'll grind, do something else like pvp, grind ... and so on. I don't think they can remove the repetiveness. If the encounter stays the same, but it's like throwing dice, if you win or die, then it's only annoying. Would feel still repetive, but annoying and useless.
Imagine killing Onyxia in WoW. It's a rather complex encounter, but once you have learned it, your team can do it in sleep. You go in, kill her, get the loot, a few days later the same.
Now if the wow devs would make her engagement totally random, she'd just kill people a lot, learning how to do it wouldn't work and people would get also annoyed. I just wouldn't do it anymore, after I had seen her freaking out 10-times and it had turned out to be uncontrollable.
I think writing a good npc encounter, that stays challenging, doesn't get repetitive and doesn't become so random that it depends on luck, if you survive or not and becomes totally annoying, is difficult. I rather prefer a few hours grind that give me the isk I need over fighting an AI that reacts totally random and throws the dice, if it kills me or not.
To keep it interesting, you need a human-like AI. That's why many people prefer pvp.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.06.05 20:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Jim McGregor
PvP missions is the cure to the boredom.
Roll on Factional Warfare, I hope...
Yeah, but im still not sure exactly what FW will be. It could be just npc missions... guess we'll wait and see.
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Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Chelone
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Posted - 2007.06.05 20:32:00 -
[8]
Impossible spawns that scramble you. Now that sounds like fun!
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Rulaigh NicMorrigan
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Posted - 2007.06.05 20:38:00 -
[9]
I think its important to be able to "grind" for isk, because otherwise there is no supporting pvp habits for those of us who can't stand industry.
HOWEVER, the guy has a point that it could be made more fun. If its more expensive and more people die, all you have to do is increase the bounties and value of loot and it can be balanced out.
I think instead of endless droves of poorly equipped pirates in every single belt even unto the most remote of boony-land system, you should be able to get "bounty" missions from pretty much any station, including conquerable and outposts in 0.0... THEN, you have to go find the target, who the agent you got the mission for narrowed down to a region, constelation or maybe a system based on your "agent whoring" skill... once you find the target (aranged in such a way that no one can find him before you) you have to kill a ship which at least can mimic the abilities of a real ship: hunting down a dangerous npc in a blasterthron, you should get nosed, tackled and T2 droned, and maybe he'll have a couple frigs or cruisers backing him up.
Make his bounty and his loot measure up to the time it takes to find and kill him. Right now if I'm casually ratting a good 0.0 system with a t2 fitted phoon and looting and salvaging I probably make 15 mil an hour as an average (I'm not as hard core as some people are). So if it takes an hour to find this guy and kill him, you should get about 15-20 mil.
You have an *active* role to play to make your money, and you keep the same basic hourly income.
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Miriyana
Gallente Galactic Savings and Investments
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Posted - 2007.06.05 21:52:00 -
[10]
mission would be much cooler if you in your bs encountered say, 5 npc cruisers that did differing damage types and acted in more of a way that real battles are.
I hope this is what factional warfare is going to be like.
Killing 100 npcs in your BS at 100 km range is no fun, and grossly unrealistic.
- - - - - - Change just leads to more problems |
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000Hunter000
Gallente Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.06.05 22:01:00 -
[11]
Edited by: 000Hunter000 on 05/06/2007 22:00:30
Originally by: Miriyana Killing 100 npcs in your BS at 100 km range is no fun, and grossly unrealistic.
and getting omgwtfpwnbbqed by a blob at a gate, not even having a chance of firing off a single shot cuz they got u webbed, scrammed, jammed and damped is fun and realistic?
EDIT: yeah i just realized it prolly is if ur the blob CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
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Earthan
Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.06.06 04:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby More people losing ships == more people grinding to get ISK to purchase ships. Make it too likely to lose ships and they just do less difficult missions/complexes/rats. Then they get bored and quit
You are advocating FORCING people to grind to recover losses, not stopping grind. If someone has to replace ships by running less profitable ventures they just won't play or grind lower stuff.
What is it exactly you are trying to do? It won't hurt farmers at all, since they don't care if they grind 10/10s or 1/10s. It will hurt and drive off more casual players.
No no no.
If pve is more fun less grind , you cant grind right???You understand right? That pve feels liek grind is WRONG in first place, and should not be the place.The changes i described will remedy it imho in a big way.
Believe me if i say more risk is more fun. It was more risky in older times and its true, pve was much mre fun.
The additianl gain i posted is just it additiaonal.
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Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories |
Earthan
Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.06.06 04:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Earthan on 06/06/2007 04:47:17 Come on pve atm is ridiculuosly easy, you cant get killed.
In last ~-1-2 years i lost one ship to npcs, because i was reading a book while npcing and book got interesting and i forgot i was playing eve.Honest
It wont scare off imho casual gamers.Casual gamers are here to pve, they dont nearly ever pvp.So pve must be fun and risky.They will do less dangeruos missions or group.
But poeple, at the end of the day , leave because something is boring not because something is risky an ddemanding( in a smart reasonable way)
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Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.06 04:49:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Earthan
No no no.
If pve is more fun less grind , you cant grind right???You understand right? That pve feels liek grind is WRONG in first place, and should not be the place.The changes i described will remedy it imho in a big way.
Believe me if i say more risk is more fun. It was more risky in older times and its true, pve was much mre fun.
The additianl gain i posted is just it additiaonal.
Yes yes yes
Anything you have to do over and over is going to be a "grind" eventually. What you are advocating is changes in the ways of doing things that WILL cause people to lose noticeably more numbers of ships in PvE content. If you lose ships you have to "grind" to get them back. In addition, that will adversely effect the PvPers that use PvE content to aquire funding for more PvP.
In addition, CCP is determined to REDUCE the rewards for NPC-related things as evidenced by the blogs on the new factional missions. Reduced rewards + greater danger does not equal "more fun" for most players, it equals wasted time and moving on to different games.
I submit to you the concept that PvE was not more fun way back then because of the lack of grind, it was more fun because you hadn't been doing it for 3+ years..... <-----------> Factional Warfare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.06 04:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Earthan Edited by: Earthan on 06/06/2007 04:47:17 Come on pve atm is ridiculuosly easy, you cant get killed.
Then what are all the threads about blown up ships in missions about? Believe it or not, most mission runners are not in faction fitted ships, or even T2 fitted ones. Most barely have enough to buy the battleship they just scraped together.
Quote:
In last ~-1-2 years i lost one ship to npcs, because i was reading a book while npcing and book got interesting and i forgot i was playing eve.Honest
I'm happy for you I'm sure the pilot of the Domi we lost a couple of weeks ago will be impressed. Of course we were pretty impressed too, since we had a dual-repped Domi with 85% resists tanking the mission with 2 ships running remote reppers and it STILL popped. And couldn't get out because of some 8 scrambling frigates. Sure caught us off-guard Not sure what happened, but it did.
Quote:
It wont scare off imho casual gamers.Casual gamers are here to pve, they dont nearly ever pvp.So pve must be fun and risky.They will do less dangeruos missions or group.
But poeple, at the end of the day , leave because something is boring not because something is risky an ddemanding( in a smart reasonable way)
People will leave if they are bored. People will leave if they don't get enough for their effort. People will leave if they get ganked. People will leave if the rules change so they can't gank someone. People will always leave, the intention is to retain as many as possible and casual players WILL leave faster if they find things too hard as compared to a comfortable grind.
They are USED to grind <-----------> Factional Warfare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
Pia Zawa
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Posted - 2007.06.06 04:58:00 -
[16]
Get rid of the stupid insurance system would be a good place to start.
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Earthan
Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.06.06 05:02:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Earthan
No no no.
If pve is more fun less grind , you cant grind right???You understand right? That pve feels liek grind is WRONG in first place, and should not be the place.The changes i described will remedy it imho in a big way.
Believe me if i say more risk is more fun. It was more risky in older times and its true, pve was much mre fun.
The additianl gain i posted is just it additiaonal.
Yes yes yes
Anything you have to do over and over is going to be a "grind" eventually. What you are advocating is changes in the ways of doing things that WILL cause people to lose noticeably more numbers of ships in PvE content. If you lose ships you have to "grind" to get them back. In addition, that will adversely effect the PvPers that use PvE content to aquire funding for more PvP.
In addition, CCP is determined to REDUCE the rewards for NPC-related things as evidenced by the blogs on the new factional missions. Reduced rewards + greater danger does not equal "more fun" for most players, it equals wasted time and moving on to different games.
I submit to you the concept that PvE was not more fun way back then because of the lack of grind, it was more fun because you hadn't been doing it for 3+ years.....
NO i dont agree.
IF something is interesting and risky enough , it wont feel like grind for along time.
Pvpers for example pvp for hours daily and if enemy is good, it never feels like grind cause its fun and risky.
You cant match comupter AI with human and there is no need, but imho pve should be rebalanced
Now Im lost with your arguments.. You say casual gamers wont like it.Casual gamers do 99% of time pve.Now oyu say " Reduced rewards + greater danger does not equal "more fun" for most players, it equals wasted time and moving on to different games." So what is exactly fun for you???If you dont enjoy risky more demanding PVE and you dont do pvp? Printing isk and watching your wallet grow with not thinking or playing?? To me you speak like isk farmer.Remmber you play this game for FUN.If you do PVE it should be FUN.Im alwys aiming for pvp but i still like my PVE to be FUN.
" submit to you the concept that PvE was not more fun way back then because of the lack of grind, it was more fun because you hadn't been doing it for 3+ years....."
LOL? How do you know what i have been doing last 3 years?? Actually i have alwys been doing a part of PVE because i need alot fo isk to pvp, and i dont have any t2 bpos( im not really interesting in production part of the game) and my timezone isnt allowing me 10/10 complexes, even when i had access.
You just dont know after castor was introduced, how fun it was to go npcing or minign with friends, all on toes and nervuos, because it was risky.Sure it was abit to much then but still the memory is great. -
Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories |
Earthan
Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.06.06 05:08:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Pia Zawa Get rid of the stupid insurance system would be a good place to start.
the lack of insurance really wont make pve more fun. -
Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories |
Rhaegor Stormborn
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2007.06.06 05:09:00 -
[19]
Make PvE more difficult, up ISK payout since risk went up, and I would be very happy. Ratting puts me to sleep. Seriously, I can rat for like an hour and a half max before my eyes get heavy and I go take a nap. PvP is blood-pumping awesome excitement and if PvE could somehow emulate it this game would be so much better for it. RISE Recruitment Thread
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Earthan
Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.06.06 05:12:00 -
[20]
On side note come to thikn of it, im not suprrised isk farmers are popping like mushrooms after rain.
The whole PVE system atm seems to be perfect for them.
It isnt risky, it is hellish boring.So every real player is really tempted to buy isk instead of earning it ingame , because its really not fun for most part.And they can do it day long, its not risky and its their work fun doesnt matter. -
Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories |
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Earthan
Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.06.06 05:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Make PvE more difficult, up ISK payout since risk went up, and I would be very happy. Ratting puts me to sleep. Seriously, I can rat for like an hour and a half max before my eyes get heavy and I go take a nap. PvP is blood-pumping awesome excitement and if PvE could somehow emulate it this game would be so much better for it.
exactly:) -
Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.06 06:45:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
PvP missions is the cure to the boredom.
But not to isk grinding as PvP = someone lose more than the other party gain.
The only reliable system to get isk (outise market) is through PvE.
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Sm0kE
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Posted - 2007.06.06 06:51:00 -
[23]
Well after I got 117m bounty the other night I though hmmm maybe this PVP thing will finally pay off. Well ya... No.
I'm sorry, but a game so focused on PVP should have more incentive to PVP. Phat Lewt is tough to come by not to mention half the time you're sharing it with 5 other people.
In simple terms: I should be able to make a living blowing people up. I mean hell, they take a billion times longer to find/trackdown/probeout/etc than a darn 1.8m NPC. ------------------------------------------------
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Earthan
Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.06.08 18:45:00 -
[24]
Coem on poeple, its obvious PVE is to boring and easy, lets make this thread few pages long so maybe somebody from CCP notices it:) -
Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories |
Janu Hull
Caldari Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.08 19:06:00 -
[25]
I would love an improvement in NPC AI. Something more than just higher numbers or more damage. That's not challenging, its lazy.
If CCP would research some of the more efficient PvP player ship set ups and gear the AI to use set ups like that, then you'd have something.
Amarr/Sansha's that would tackle and NOS, Gallente/Blood Raiders that would unleash a horde of drones, Minmatar/Thukker that would move like a cat on a wire and level you at close range, Caldari/Guristas ships that would ECM and suppress your targeting ability and bury you in an ungodly barrage of missile fire.
I do see some hints of that kind of ability in some NPCs. I've been webbed and warp scrambled by Sanshas. I've been NOS'd by Blood Raiders, and God knows the Guristas love their ECM, but its not consistent, its gimmicky at best, novelty at most.
And they need to operate on similar rules to players. The unholy tanks for the sake of drawing out battles has to go. The AI's have to work like players. Frigate tacklers, cruiser close support, battlecruiser/battleship damage dealers.
PvE now is nothing but damage versus tank. It doesn't have half the nasty tricks and nonsense that make PvP unpredictable and fluid. Instead of bottomless cap driven tanks, why aren't they NOSing players to battery death (forcing us to carry injectors), or jamming our targeting systems (forcing us to pack ECCM or active sensors). Why aren't we being swarmed by drones (which might make carrying a smartbomb more vital).
It seems to me all NPCs have are these hellish tanks, and ridiculous damage modifiers to increase their difficulty.
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Admiral Pelleon
Caldari The Dystopian Concept Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.06.08 20:42:00 -
[26]
/signed for making PvE more interesting. Ratting for ISK to support PvP is mindless as it stands now, please mix it up! _______________________________________________
* TDC * |
Earthan
Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik
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Posted - 2007.06.08 20:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Janu Hull I would love an improvement in NPC AI. Something more than just higher numbers or more damage. That's not challenging, its lazy.
If CCP would research some of the more efficient PvP player ship set ups and gear the AI to use set ups like that, then you'd have something.
Amarr/Sansha's that would tackle and NOS, Gallente/Blood Raiders that would unleash a horde of drones, Minmatar/Thukker that would move like a cat on a wire and level you at close range, Caldari/Guristas ships that would ECM and suppress your targeting ability and bury you in an ungodly barrage of missile fire.
I do see some hints of that kind of ability in some NPCs. I've been webbed and warp scrambled by Sanshas. I've been NOS'd by Blood Raiders, and God knows the Guristas love their ECM, but its not consistent, its gimmicky at best, novelty at most.
And they need to operate on similar rules to players. The unholy tanks for the sake of drawing out battles has to go. The AI's have to work like players. Frigate tacklers, cruiser close support, battlecruiser/battleship damage dealers.
PvE now is nothing but damage versus tank. It doesn't have half the nasty tricks and nonsense that make PvP unpredictable and fluid. Instead of bottomless cap driven tanks, why aren't they NOSing players to battery death (forcing us to carry injectors), or jamming our targeting systems (forcing us to pack ECCM or active sensors). Why aren't we being swarmed by drones (which might make carrying a smartbomb more vital).
It seems to me all NPCs have are these hellish tanks, and ridiculous damage modifiers to increase their difficulty.
Nice ideas. -
Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories |
Zixxa
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Posted - 2007.06.08 22:44:00 -
[28]
Especially for people flying around Jita. Try to hunt in Stain, for example. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
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