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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.01.12 16:18:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Hardin on 08/02/2005 18:52:51
I have finally got round to updating this with more recent information - including the advanced learning skills.
As it is very long and I dont want to repost it all in it entirety I have put it online as a document.
You can view it HERE
I hope people find it helpful...
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.01.12 16:19:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Hardin on 08/02/2005 18:53:58
Updated information HERE
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.01.12 16:21:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Hardin on 08/02/2005 18:53:43
Updated information HERE
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Dworak
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Posted - 2004.01.12 17:32:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Dworak on 12/01/2004 17:33:30
You got way to much sparetime Hardin 
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Ylang Star
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Posted - 2004.01.12 17:42:00 -
[5]
Wow, nice, saved on HD for futur reference, TY!
"I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it." |
Barry Bleekscheet
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Posted - 2004.01.12 18:52:00 -
[6]
Great!
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Ishkur
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Posted - 2004.01.12 19:51:00 -
[7]
Hey Hardin, this is great! Can I make a suggestion, as a newbie myself?
I can tell this is written from the perspective of a veteran player, which makes it hard for a newbie. Could you reverse the order of pretty much everything?  I was looking for SOMETHING, ANYTHING that would help me as a newbie when I started the character selection that would tell me what I should put points into!
So, I'd put the "What do the attributes do" at the very top, followed by a list of skills and what attributes they use, and THEN go into the whole thing about Learning skills, what skills to train, etc. etc. Those are things you need to know once you've started playing; the attributes are things you need to know BEFORE you play.
I hope CCP will someday implement some kind of "HELP" feature on the character creation screen that explains all this. I found it very unhelpful.
Seriously, you're a complete newbie, and you're supposed to pick these attributes? Or you click on "Miner" for example, and it is just done? Without even a confirmation? BANG! Here's your character, goodbye!
This is a great guide, too bad I missed it.
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Delc
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Posted - 2004.01.12 23:09:00 -
[8]
Great guide for those that are new to the game! Nice work Hardin!
Make this thread a sticky!
N.A.G.A Corp | NAGAmazon
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Isiana
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Posted - 2004.01.12 23:42:00 -
[9]
again  someone most have bought it during the christmas shopping
Carebear|Me
Alts |
Dzikus
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Posted - 2004.01.13 10:49:00 -
[10]
Good Work - can Anyone make it sticky. Or maybe Polaris/GMs could create more or less official "Guides" direcotry in EVE Insider and put some good Game Rules explanations? Please?
_________________
Never Give Up, Never Surrender! |
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INkog
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Posted - 2004.01.15 06:42:00 -
[11]
Good stuff thanks!
I took the liberty to put this information in a Word document which can be found HERE.
*Hardin, let me know if this is not acceptable.
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JGR Mao
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Posted - 2004.01.15 14:48:00 -
[12]
Uhm...
I actually did some calculations, and the formula seems to work....
Did anyone that has trained the learning skill itself and the attribute skills to lvl 5 notice a wierd couple of extra Atrribute points popping up ?
I did.
Heres how i figured out it works...
The Learning skill gives 2% faster learning pr level. But....heres the kicker....It gets applied to your attribute points.
(Base atrribute + implant + Atrribute skill ) x (1+(0,02 x learning skill lvl)) = Final attribute.
This means , that if your char is born with >12 points in any of the attributes, u will be able to get 2 extra bonus attribute points by training the atrribute skill and the learning skill to lvl 5 and using an implant.
Ill use myself as example.
Base mem, 13
Memory augmentation, , 3
Instant recall lvl 5, 5
Total = 21
Learning skill lvl 5, 10%
so.
(13+3+5)x(1+(0,02*5)) = 23
And, low and behold, my attribute is 23 on my charsheet... Wonderfull, gained 2 extra attribute points by training learning to lvl 5 .....
Can someone confirm this, or am i totally off base...
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.01.17 13:54:00 -
[13]
Your quite right mate!
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Siobhan
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Posted - 2004.01.21 19:46:00 -
[14]
Yep!
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PIE Inc Avenging Angel
www.pie-online.co.uk
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.01.25 20:08:00 -
[15]
Newbies read this ^^^
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Karol Kei
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Posted - 2004.01.26 09:18:00 -
[16]
Please, could this be made sticky again? I frequently instruct newbies, minutes-olds, in our newbie corp channel and during the next hours everything in this thread gets written to the corp chat. Over and over and over again.
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Wraths Dane
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Posted - 2004.01.26 11:03:00 -
[17]
Hehe.. thx for explaining Karol.. also, nice guide..
(used to playing other games, thats usually just easy to get into, then get all the specials sorted later, little harder with Eve)
(but not a typical game at all.. :))
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china doll
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Posted - 2004.01.26 11:05:00 -
[18]
Can attributes go down for any wierd reason?
I noticed my attributes are again on base level, even that I have trained learning skills.
No implants thou... never died either.
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Sable Moran
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Posted - 2004.01.26 13:50:00 -
[19]
 Quote:
Can attributes go down for any wierd reason?
I noticed my attributes are again on base level, even that I have trained learning skills.
No implants thou... never died either.
Known buglet, happens when you switch ships. But it is only a visual glitch, your real attribute values are still safe and sound in the game's database.
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Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices. |
StewDaddy
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Posted - 2004.01.26 22:10:00 -
[20]
 Man this is great for Noobs!!!!!!!
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Ishkur
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Posted - 2004.01.28 02:27:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Man this is great for Noobs!!!!!!!
Which is probably why it isn't stickied... *sigh*
*Gently urges Polaris to wake up and sticky this*
You don't think those 6000-some players are all veterans, do you? Get with it, folks...
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Ishkur
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Posted - 2004.01.28 02:30:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Man this is great for Noobs!!!!!!!
Which is probably why it isn't stickied... *sigh*
*Gently urges Polaris to wake up and sticky this*
You don't think those 6000-some players are all veterans, do you? Get with it, folks...
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Torrigan
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Posted - 2004.01.30 11:28:00 -
[23]
When I found my willpower appeared to have reverted to base level, I set to train Iron Will and it immediately corrected itself. When I stopped training IW it stayed at the correct level.
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Mos Panor
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Posted - 2004.02.04 10:04:00 -
[24]
Excellent post Hardin, very useful indeed.
Thanks! :)
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PIE Inc
Captain and Internal Communications Officer |
Darsk'hul
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Posted - 2004.02.04 17:53:00 -
[25]
We must keep it at top
BUMP 'till it's stickyed
__________
No more CEO of Placid Partners Inc.
Contact for this corp is now Yilo.
Freelancer at Lost Order |
Jerrod Syn
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Posted - 2004.02.05 16:21:00 -
[26]
This is excellent info. It needs to be sticky.
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.02.05 16:47:00 -
[27]
I'll sticky it, but iy'll probably get eaten by the big bad sticky-eater that ate Hardin's Skill thread on the new player forum 
Join the IC! |
Hardin
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Posted - 2004.02.05 17:26:00 -
[28]
Orestes - I hope not - no doubt it was some ugly Minmatar moderator
(not including Eris in that description ofc)
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Ginger Snap
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Posted - 2004.02.08 15:03:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Quote:
Can attributes go down for any wierd reason?
I noticed my attributes are again on base level, even that I have trained learning skills.
No implants thou... never died either.
Known buglet, happens when you switch ships. But it is only a visual glitch, your real attribute values are still safe and sound in the game's database.
Okay... I need some clarifaction... I know the attributes will be visually reset by relogging, and I know the attribs are safe in the game's DB. However, during the time that the stats show up this way, before relogging, do the base stats affect play, or will the real stats always affect play regardless of the visual display?
Thanks,
Ginger Snap
CEO and Pop Diva, Lolli Pop |
Ginger Snap
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Posted - 2004.02.08 15:46:00 -
[30]
By the way... Great article
Felt like I should add that...
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Ginger Snap
CEO and Pop Diva, Lolli Pop |
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Sable Moran
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Posted - 2004.02.09 14:49:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Sable Moran on 09/02/2004 14:52:33
The attributes only affect the speed of your skill training. Everytime a new skill training is started the game engine checks the database for the real values of your attributes and uses those values to calculate how fast the skill trains (skillpoints per second).
So to answer your question your real stats are what matters, always.
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Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene 5, Moon 4, Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Ammo at affordable prices. |
Ginger Snap
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Posted - 2004.02.09 21:35:00 -
[32]
Quote:
Edited by: Sable Moran on 09/02/2004 14:52:33
The attributes only affect the speed of your skill training. Everytime a new skill training is started the game engine checks the database for the real values of your attributes and uses those values to calculate how fast the skill trains (skillpoints per second).
So to answer your question your real stats are what matters, always.
Outstanding
So I can quit relogging when I change ships.
YAY!
--
Ginger Snap
CEO and Pop Diva, Lolli Pop |
Hardin
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Posted - 2004.02.09 22:18:00 -
[33]
Yes and apparently this bug was fixed in todays patch anyway!
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Staind Cold
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Posted - 2004.02.12 20:28:00 -
[34]
Great!
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Phyrexia
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Posted - 2004.02.14 16:16:00 -
[35]
Thanks alot!!
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Solaris Soze
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Posted - 2004.02.20 12:33:00 -
[36]
willpower is no longer primary in any gunnery skill. thought that you may want to change your guide...
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Xanther
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Posted - 2004.02.24 16:05:00 -
[37]
i wish i had read this when i was starting or i would have hit learning straight off. as far as starting attributes, i think it's more beneficial to go for balance over focus. i've got skills from everywhere, and you can always pump what you use most with implants and the learning skills
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Halo Jones
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Posted - 2004.02.29 10:50:00 -
[38]
Shiny, shiny, shiny disco balls.
Very good post Hardin.
Oberon Incorporated. |
Ragetti
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Posted - 2004.03.08 22:08:00 -
[39]
Thanks for the info mate, very helpful indeed!
Keep it up. 
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Forrester
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Posted - 2004.03.09 02:13:00 -
[40]
Excellent guide mate!
Thanks.
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Kreeper
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Posted - 2004.03.09 15:15:00 -
[41]
can u stack implants? like have a complete set of 5 and plug another coplete set of 5 in as well?
-----------------------------------------------
Calling Christos Hendez come back to EvE
Smother another Failur
Lay this to rest...
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.03.09 16:23:00 -
[42]
Nope
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2004.03.10 15:29:00 -
[43]
Quote:
I'll sticky it, but iy'll probably get eaten by the big bad sticky-eater that ate Hardin's Skill thread on the new player forum
The following post is one that I made TWICE and both times it got deleted...once after being stickied...
---------------------------------------------------
OK, this is a portion of a post I made a while back and has since been deleted for some reason or other. I removed all the basic crap and left the good stuff: How attributes REALLY work, specifically how they effect skill training time.
This is what most people don't seem to quite understand, so read carefully. The catch is that the 'Learning' skill does not do exactly what it claims. Instead it adds 2% more to your attribs per level.
eg.
Base intel 5 with Anayltical Mind lv 5 gives you 10.0 attrib points.
Add learning lv 5 to that and it's (5+5)+((5+5)*5*.02) = 11.0
Add an Basic Implant and it's (5+5+3)+((5+5+3)*5*.02) = 14.3
You'll note the +3.3 attrib gain for adding a +3.0 implant.
Also, you'll notice that your attributes are always displayed as whole numbers. They are rarely actually whole. The number is TRUNCATED, not rounded. For instance, my Memory, which displays as 20, is actually 20.9.
Now, you simply plug your correct attribs into the forumla:
(SPNeeded - CurrentSP) / (PriAttrib + (SecAttrib / 2))
This will yield the total number of minutes remaining.
eg.
Missile Launcher Operation training from 66,096 to 256,000 SP.
Primary attrib is Perception, Secondary is Willpower.
I have Spatial Awareness lv 5, Iron Will lv 5, Learning lv 5, and both relevent implants.
My Perception is (4+5+3)+((4+5+3)*5*.02) = 13.2
My Willpower is (7+5+3)+((7+5+3)*5*.02) = 16.5
(256000-66096)/(13.2+(16.5/2)) = 8853.33 minutes or 6 Days, 3 Hours, 33 Minutes, 20 Seconds. This EXACTLY matches what EVE is telling me is left on this skill....to the second.
To Go To Level 5, Or Not To Go To Level 5?
Constently debated is how whorthwhile is it to train any of the 6 learning skills up to level 5. Well, this is difficult to answer.
OK, using the Missile Launcher Operation skill example in the previous section, with all lv 5 skills and basic implants, the time remaining is 6 Days 3 Hours 33 Minutes 20 Seconds. If I change my skills all down to lv 4, this becomes 6 Days 18 Hours 43 Minutes 42 Seconds. This is a 10% increase in speed for having the lv 5 skills! That'll knock 3 days off of the average person's Industrial lv 5 training. If we just take Learning down to lv 4, it becomes 6 Days 6 Hours 11 Seconds, a 1.65% increase in speed.
Now, based on that, and assuming it takes you exactly 6 days to train Learning from lv 4 to lv 5, this would only be beneficial if you played EVE, after having trained it, for approximately 140 days. It should be noted that the lower you base attribute, the more beneficial higher levels of the learning skills are.
---
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.03.10 17:14:00 -
[44]
Good addition Tripoli - I knew the Learning skill worked in the way you say - I just couldn't be bothered to go into the detail you have
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Jao I
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Posted - 2004.03.10 21:29:00 -
[45]
Very useful info. Thanks!
// Future, without past! |
Forrester
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Posted - 2004.03.11 00:34:00 -
[46]
Thanks for the guide Hardin, excellent and interesting read!
Keep it up mate :)
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Saerison
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Posted - 2004.03.12 16:26:00 -
[47]
Thanks for the guide being new to the game and having a corp try and explain what you posted made all the difference in the world!
Saerison
Red Core
New Player in Training |
Cyrus la'Fuir
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Posted - 2004.03.16 19:36:00 -
[48]
I have a question. I now know the importance of your skill levels up high..but what does the rank do? On Eve-insider there is rank for all my skills. Can u increase this rank?
I apologise now if this question was answered before but I couldnt find any referrence to it.
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.03.18 15:23:00 -
[49]
5) I am sure most of you know but skills also have ranks. A rank 2 skill will take 2x as long to train as a rank 1 skill. A rank 5 skill will take 5x as long. Most of the basic skills in the game are rank 1 but there are higher rank skills (such as Drones Interfacing) that are rank 5. If you have bad attributes a skill such as this can take over 24 days to train from Level 4 to Level 5 - whereas the right attributes can knock days off this time.
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Tyrack
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Posted - 2004.03.19 16:41:00 -
[50]
Just started:
I want to be a trader/contraband runner and due to the skills I choose in character creation, I have like 12 base charm (~6 in all other skills), yet here everyone is telling me that Charm is useless. Should I reroll?
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.03.19 23:10:00 -
[51]
I suggest you do...
Charisma is only useful for a few skills - even if it is low u can give it enough of a boost with learning skills and implants to make it reasonable...
I would suggest Perception, Intel and Mem are more important as they have a much bigger impact on a wide range of skills you willr equire in your chose career such as piloting and navigation skills...
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Phaethon
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Posted - 2004.03.20 00:19:00 -
[52]
This site has guides to Race and Education
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/caelin/
not sure if anything has changed since the info was compiled.
WTB. Infifitrator I drones |
Jiere LaFortune
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Posted - 2004.03.20 15:20:00 -
[53]
Pirate Bravado |
Swaefa
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Posted - 2004.03.21 16:28:00 -
[54]
As a noob, I have a dumbass question. In the first post of this thread it suggests a training routine to get memory, intelligence, and learning to level 4 as soon as possible. I found a learning pack on the market and am in the precess of getting to lvl 4, but I have not found anything I can buy or that I already have that I can train for memory and/or intelligence. Any help would be greatly appreciated
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.03.21 23:59:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Hardin on 22/03/2004 00:00:26
Quote:
Please be aware that the Perception learning skill is called Spatial Awareness...the Willpower learning skill is called Iron Will... Charisma is call Empathy... Memory is Instant Recall and Intelligence is called Analytical Mind
Quote:
To train skills you do not already have You need to purchase 'skill' books. You can buy these in the 'starter' stations. You need to open the market screen (make sure it is set to 'This Station Only') and then you should see a 'skills' section. You can also obtain some of the new higher level research skills from agents.
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djskum
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Posted - 2004.03.22 16:54:00 -
[56]
Been playing for about 3 days. When I started I spread out my skills a little, not alot but a little. I'm interested in doing a little of everything (mostly fighting). My perception is at about 11, but should I re-roll, am I nerfed?
Or does it just mean that some of my skills will take a little longer to mature ;-)
DjSKum
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Trader Klyde
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Posted - 2004.03.22 19:21:00 -
[57]
Thanks for posting the link on EBPortal.
I sure wish I had seen the guide prior to setting up my toon. (sigh) Well, at least I can modify from here...
Thanks much, very good info. 
________________________________________________
From deep in space where nobody hears my screams...
Sometimes in fear, sometimes in anger, mostly just my singing style. |
Fjellu
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Posted - 2004.03.23 06:30:00 -
[58]
As I just started I am in no position to tell if the advice are good or not.
First advice was to train your Memory = Instant Recall and Intelligence = Analytical Mind.
I have one problem with this. I am starting with about 1000 ISK an not having either of the skills mentioned above. Buying Instant Recall is 55000 ISK and I'm already training for level 3 in learning since I didn't have the cash.
Have I done something wrong here? Pls advice
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Efeu
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Posted - 2004.03.23 12:35:00 -
[59]
Depends Fjellu,
if you follow the tutorial missions, you should have had enough cash for some level 1 agent missions. From there its mostly 3 missions cash is enough for another basic skill package without depleting your necessary cash stock.
Regards,
Efeu
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Harisdrop
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Posted - 2004.03.23 15:09:00 -
[60]
Quote:
1) Charisma is prolly the most useless attribute in the game at the moment (although it is fractional more useful since the recent Castor patch).
I would disagree. It has lots more to do with what will come. With such a statement it seems that players should not consider this a valid attribute. Scientists need this skill greatly.
The problem with this whole guide is that its a personal opion.
--------------------------
Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies |
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.03.23 16:04:00 -
[61]
I think you will find that most people agree with me mate and as someone with 22 Carisma I personally have nothing against it... apart from the fact that I am on only 10 million skill points from the launch of the game and most of my contemporaries have many more!
I have also stated that Charisma may be more useful later on - we still have to see this though.
At the moment it contributes to speeding the training of approximately 5 skills (as a primary skill). As most people in their EVE lifetime willl be training a lot more than this I think its perfectly reasonable to suggest that other attributes are much mor elikely to effect skill training than charisma!
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Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2004.03.24 18:51:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Trak Cranker on 29/10/2004 08:59:25
Edited: I have since become wiser.
Attribs are given 2% - That does not make you go 2% faster. Almost, but not quite.
Trak Cranker |
Sir Ant
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Posted - 2004.03.24 20:07:00 -
[63]
Hi, The post is real in depth, if possible place one for the industry community (miners manufactures etc etc.) so we can better serve the EvE Community.
CEO of Industrial Miners Inc.
You either ride with us, or collide with us. |
Heihatchi
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Posted - 2004.03.25 23:00:00 -
[64]
Huh
_____ (\_/)
(> <) (X.x) This is Headless Bunny. Copy Headless Bunny into your signature to help prevent his attempt at world domination. |
Itan Kirdett
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Posted - 2004.03.27 16:14:00 -
[65]
wow
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Saerison
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Posted - 2004.03.29 13:32:00 -
[66]
After being about two weeks into the game now. Once I read through this thread it was apparent that i needed to remake based on what I wanted to do.
I really appreciate all of the information on this thread. As long as a new player comes to this thread shortly after starting most of their inital questions will be answered.
Thanks.
Saerison
Red Core
New Player in Training |
Kalystia
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Posted - 2004.03.30 14:28:00 -
[67]
yeah it is a good topic; I started EVE last week-end and this guide helped me quite a lot when starting my character.
Thanks a lot guys
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Veko
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Posted - 2004.04.03 13:20:00 -
[68]
Thank you very much Hardin! It is my second day in EVE universe and you have saved A LOT of my time by sharing your wisdom with us, noobs I'm trying to concentrate on my learning skills in order to maximize the potential return on invested time. This is a bit silly though as i have to wait for intelligence/memory/learning to train while being able only to mine asteroids in the same safe zone. But hope once this is done it will pay for itself. Thank you.
Fighting for the perfection of sweets' recepies
Yesterday's fiction is today's reality |
Whitethorn
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