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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
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CCP kieron
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Posted - 2007.06.08 12:24:00 -
[1]
Revelations II is looming on the horizon and a number of improvements are being made in addition to the new content. There have been a number of community discussions concerning the Amarrians, Titans, Logistics, passive shield tank of certain ships and others, we have listened and the following Dev Blog details the results.
Graphs for the boost to Pulse Lasers (there *is* a difference in d/s), no more remote DDD via Cyno Fields, some updates to Logistics cruisers, that's just a portion of the information in Balancing Changes for Revelations Two.
kieron Community Manager, EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang [i][size=1]Look Ma, I'm in |
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Justin Mathers
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Posted - 2007.06.08 12:30:00 -
[2]
Quote: Supercaps
We have also looked into the problems regarding Motherships and Titans. One of the main complaints is they are virtually indestructible if the pilot knows what he is doing. Even though they are costly to produce, their capabilities far exceed their expense and is something we need to address. Warp Disruption Probes (launched by Interdictors) and Mobile Warp Disruptors will prevent capital ships from jumping or warping respectively. While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmĘs way with careful placement.
Doomsday devices have been revisited. The remote detonation capability through Cynosural Fields has been removed, now Titans must be present in the same area as their targets. Additionally, firing the doomsday devices prevents the Titan from using its jump drive for 10 minutes. This means the Titan must expose itself to enemy retribution after detonation.
Ok, that's great for 0.0, but what about low-sec. A low-sec mothership is still indestructible as you cannot prevent it from jumping out of system. Unless I am mistaken, You can't drop dictor bubbles in low sec right?
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QwaarJet
Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.08 12:34:00 -
[3]
I'm glad about the logistic changes, i've always been a fan of logistics ships and I have a few. Although from what i='ve heard in testing the Scimitar is much better than other 3 due to sig radius and speed. Any plans to fix that before patch release? Anyway, logistics should also be a good bet for the tournament
On sisi, there is a bonus on bombers that allows them to basically hit frigs for maximum damage, is that staying in?
"Hobbes, she stepped into the Perimeter Of Wisdom.Run!" |
Lisa More
Caldari Parental Advisory Event-Horizon
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Posted - 2007.06.08 12:53:00 -
[4]
ok the drake nerf is right but why you nerf the caldari command ships? the nighthawk is command ship with high skill require ments and you nerf it its now crap not better than a drake you cannot tank and tackle.
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Xeen DuWang
Hell's Horsemen Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.08 12:55:00 -
[5]
I was hoping to get into a nighthawk too... Will have to see how it is now.
Most of this is right on, but agreed with the first poster, Super Capitols have no change in low sec. Hell's Horsemen Phalanx Alliance |
Callistus
Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:03:00 -
[6]
I'm confused, how will making active hardeners and EANs use the same cpu make people choose active specific hardeners over omni-tanks?
For example if you have 3 slots in which to fit hardeners I will still choose 3 EANs over 3 actives as, with good compensation skills, the EANs still give better normalized resists. I could understand it if you make actives use less cpu that EANs thus making people fit them on blasterboats like the mega which are notoriously tight on cpu, but having them use the same cpu just makes no sense --------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:09:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 08/06/2007 13:08:36 Ok, this blog is a recap of what we already knew.
No where's the real dev blog about boosting amarrs? Or are you telling us that 6 more CPU on EANM II is the only thing you'll do about the EM damage on armor issue?
------------------------------------------ A big nuke may be nice in a strategy game, but something like this in a game where every unit is a player, and each death costly, is insane. |
Magunus
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:15:00 -
[8]
Wait a second. Did I read that right? You're nerfing hull tanking? WTF?!
(Sorry, couldn't resist.) ---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:16:00 -
[9]
You guys dont have a clue why omni-tanks persist do you? Its because 2x eanm+1dc uses less CPU[and still does after the changes!] than 3x active hardeners and is better in about every way. 1x anp, 1x eanm, 1x DC still uses less CPU. The change doesnt modify the persistance of omni tanks it simply makes them 6% less strong. Amarr still end up doing terrible damage to shields. In order to change this, active hardners need to get a drastic reduction in CPU, down to 20 apiece, or even 15. Otherwise all you are doing is nerfing omni-tanks, not modifying the fitting considerations. not to mention, that because amarr ships have the least CPU in the game, and the least CPU after fitting their weapons in the game, they are hit worse by any increase in the CPU use of eanms
You also dont seem to have a clue regarding shield tanking and the prevelence of invuln fields[a hint, about the ONLY specific shield hardeners that are ever fit are EM and that is only after inv fields have been fitted]
The tracking boost is a move in the wrong direction. Yes it will make amarr a bit better close in. But the balance issue should not move towards homogenizing the tracking of the ships, but to move towards making the ships not require obscene training to be usefull in their intended roles. Kill the cap use bonus, cut the cap use of lasers, and then give the ships a real bonus.
You also havent addressed that low teir lasers suffer the absolute worst penalties in the game regarding downfitting.
Your graph is laughable, something is terribly wrong with it. Ingoring the fact that you are using 3 ships that are not gunboats to compare gun damage. You have the Apoc, with 8 guns, cant outdamage a typhoon with 4? It doesnt even get close to the 6 gun domi? And none of these graphs have drones figued in, or missiles? The Domi which also has a drone damage bonus? How about comparing the damages of the Megathron, Tempest/Maelstrom, and Armageddon? Then looking at the damage after an omni tank. THEN you might understand why a nerf to omni tanks wont help the issue.
The apoc does only 14% less damage than an Geddon with its guns in full gank mode. And it barely outdamages the 4 gun typhoon according to you. What are you guys doing in the balance department?
Other things wrong with your graph. DPS difference between the neutron and electron domi seems to be greater in percentage than the difference between the MP and DPH apoc. This absolutly and completly impossible since.
1. DPS difference between Electrons and Neutrons is: 14.2% in favor of the neutrons While the DPS difference between MP and DHP is: 15.7% in favor of the megapulse.
2. The tracking difference between electrons and neutrons is: 15% in favor of the electrons While the tracking difference between megapulse and dual heavy pulse is 11% in favor of the DHP
3. Tracking has more of an effect on DPS as a percentage the closer it reduces hit chance towards zero.
4. Pulse lasers have better relative tracking at optimal, making any tracking boost on blasters at their optimal even more relevent.
So the electron domi, which loses less pure DPS, and gains MORE tracking cannot ever have a worse ratio in damage compared to neutron domi than a Megapulse apoc to a DHP apoc, which loses more pure DPS and gains LESS back in tracking. When they are both compared at each others optimal. It is impossible that the ship that loses less and gains more, can end up losing more than the ship that loses more and gains less.
Go back to the drawing board. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
B Glorious
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:16:00 -
[10]
Just one thing:
Quote: While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmĘs way with careful placement.
You haven't said anything about the bounding spheres affecting smartbomb range.
If you still don't know what we're talking about, try this:
1) Get an Avatar, Ragnarok, whatever 2) Fit a Chelm's or Draclira's Modified Large EMP smartbomb (or two) 3) Sit a few ships at varying ranges from the titan, such as 7km, 11km, 14km, 17km, and 21km 4) activate the smartbombs and see which ships get hit. You will be amazed.
If you don't fix the bounding spheres, then titans will still be virtually invincible. And so far, it seems that they'll still be invincible in lowsec, where you can't launch bubbles.
Further, you haven't mentioned the extra gang bonuses that titans give with effects comparable to pirate implant sets worth billions of ISK, or anything about jump-bridging freighters, or even cloaking. Its good to get an update, but you still aren't addressing real issues that players are concerned about. |
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Lord Matrix
PBA Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:23:00 -
[11]
I fail to see a practical difference between the two graphs. Also, why have you put Apocalypse as an Amarr reference? It's kinda wrong since it doesn't get any DPS bonus like the Dominix or Typhoon which are also both tier 1 battleships. IMO, Armageddon would be a better comparison.
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Darpz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:28:00 -
[12]
Few things:
first:
MAKING BUBBLES AFFECT MOTHERSHIPS AND TITANS IS A GOOD STEP FORWARDS, BUT WITHOUT MAKING THEM BREAK A WARP THAT HAS ALREADY STARTED, IT'S NOT REALLY ENOUGH. THIS HAS BEEN ON KNOWN ISSUES FOR MORE THAN A YEAR ALREADY.
Second: your missing the problem on amarr, pulse were never the issue they are fine. the issue is the ships overall are just meh and need some rebalancing tweaking to make them viable in pvp. (khanid mk2) one good example is the apoc what is that ship for? geddon is a cheaper gank platform and if you need tank abbadon outtanks and out ganks the apoc. the apoc has no role.
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maarud
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:35:00 -
[13]
Once again, you've completely ignored your subscriber base about the ENAM nerf. You haven't even bother to reply with replys to the numerous points being brought about this very VERY hot topic.
Well done guys, well done.
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:36:00 -
[14]
Jepp, I wanted to comment this as well.
Quote: While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmĘs way with careful placement.
The whole problem is that you CANNOT do this due to smartbombs having bigger ranges than "on paper" for capitals.
And there are 2 additional details which limit the efficiency of this change:
- a bubble does nothing to stop a warp which has already started (meaning where the ship has the "warping" text, but is still alligning and has not reached 80% sped yet) unlike warp disruptors/scramblers, which do.
- you cannot use bubbles in low sec. And the use of motherships there is, while not exactly common also not realyl rare there anymore. Which makes them unkillable solopownmobiles there.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: B Glorious Just one thing:
Quote: While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmĘs way with careful placement.
You haven't said anything about the bounding spheres affecting smartbomb range.
If you still don't know what we're talking about, try this:
1) Get an Avatar, Ragnarok, whatever 2) Fit a Chelm's or Draclira's Modified Large EMP smartbomb (or two) 3) Sit a few ships at varying ranges from the titan, such as 7km, 11km, 14km, 17km, and 21km 4) activate the smartbombs and see which ships get hit. You will be amazed.
If you don't fix the bounding spheres, then titans will still be virtually invincible. And so far, it seems that they'll still be invincible in lowsec, where you can't launch bubbles.
Further, you haven't mentioned the extra gang bonuses that titans give with effects comparable to pirate implant sets worth billions of ISK, or anything about jump-bridging freighters, or even cloaking. Its good to get an update, but you still aren't addressing real issues that players are concerned about.
Exactly, you are ignoring the effect of officer smartbombs and the weird range calculations for warp disruptors vs smartbomb range.
This is not a viable solution.
------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
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Maghnus
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:40:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: B Glorious Just one thing:
Quote: While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmĘs way with careful placement.
You haven't said anything about the bounding spheres affecting smartbomb range.
If you still don't know what we're talking about, try this:
1) Get an Avatar, Ragnarok, whatever 2) Fit a Chelm's or Draclira's Modified Large EMP smartbomb (or two) 3) Sit a few ships at varying ranges from the titan, such as 7km, 11km, 14km, 17km, and 21km 4) activate the smartbombs and see which ships get hit. You will be amazed.
If you don't fix the bounding spheres, then titans will still be virtually invincible. And so far, it seems that they'll still be invincible in lowsec, where you can't launch bubbles.
Further, you haven't mentioned the extra gang bonuses that titans give with effects comparable to pirate implant sets worth billions of ISK, or anything about jump-bridging freighters, or even cloaking. Its good to get an update, but you still aren't addressing real issues that players are concerned about.
Exactly, you are ignoring the effect of officer smartbombs and the weird range calculations for warp disruptors vs smartbomb range.
This is not a viable solution.
Not to mention that supercapitals operating in lowsec will continue to be untacklable solowpwnmobiles.
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Darpz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:47:00 -
[17]
another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.
Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat Raven can fit 6 siege no problem mael can fit 8 1400s pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods
try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods
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maarud
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:53:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Darpz another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.
Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat Raven can fit 6 siege no problem mael can fit 8 1400s pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods
try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods
Pest needs PG Rigs to fit it
Maarud.
Proudly a Ex-BYDI member |
Mashie Saldana
Hooligans Of War
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Goumindong Your graph is laughable, something is terribly wrong with it. Ingoring the fact that you are using 3 ships that are not gunboats to compare gun damage. You have the Apoc, with 8 guns, cant outdamage a typhoon with 4? It doesnt even get close to the 6 gun domi?
Lol, you do realise it is damage per gun in that graph right?
We're sorry, something happened.
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Darpz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: maarud
Originally by: Darpz another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.
Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat Raven can fit 6 siege no problem mael can fit 8 1400s pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods
try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods
Pest needs PG Rigs to fit it
yeah wasn't sure on that one I don't fly mimn.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:58:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Goumindong on 08/06/2007 13:57:39
Originally by: maarud
Originally by: Darpz another problem with amarr. no other race has a problem fitting a full rack of its biggest guns like amarr do.
Mega can fit 7 425s no sweat Raven can fit 6 siege no problem mael can fit 8 1400s pretty sure a pest can fit 6 1400s without fitting mods
try fitting 8 tachs on a apoc or even a abbadon? yeah gl on that without fitting mods
Pest needs PG Rigs to fit it
It needs an RCU to fit an MWD, but it actualy fits 6x 1400 IIs with AWU 5. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Belenkas
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Posted - 2007.06.08 13:59:00 -
[22]
I am a bit worried about the 10 min no-jump timer for Titan after doomsday. Some timer sure needed to be applied, but 10 minutes... Several dreads could kill the titan during the time. Looks like you will need HUGE support of capitals if you are willing to fire off the doomsday so that enemy doesn't jump a fleet of dreads and melt the titan in a matter of few minutes.
Looks like our titan pilots will have to be careful these days, but it does seem to be just that slightly too big nerf.
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Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
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Posted - 2007.06.08 14:01:00 -
[23]
Quote: Doomsday devices have been revisited. The remote detonation capability through Cynosural Fields has been removed, now Titans must be present in the same area as their targets. Additionally, firing the doomsday devices prevents the Titan from using its jump drive for 10 minutes. This means the Titan must expose itself to enemy retribution after detonation
Does this mean you gusy are going to change the revelations trailer. As you can clearly see titans fire tru portals.
->My Vids<- |
murder one
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.06.08 14:02:00 -
[24]
Edited by: murder one on 08/06/2007 14:04:23 I'm wondering if Tux is in charge of the EANM changes, and is making Fendahl post, just so Fen can suck up the flames and not him.
Fen: don't use the Domi as the example for Gallente. Rarely does anyone use a blaster Domi, and I've literally never seen a Neutron Domi in PVP, unless it was on the test server, because they're 100% impractal to use in actual combat.
Do something real. Pick a Mega or maybe a Hype. Put the Geddon and Abaddon on the graph, not the Apoc. WTF is wrong with you people? That's the equivilant of Chevy making a commercial and putting it's Geo Metro (some small crap car) in the lineup for comparison with a Ford Mustang and a Dodge Viper, just to complain that Chevy needs more horsepower.
I think the Devs must have a very low opinion of the player base. You're treating us like we're stupid.
As was already iterated by Goumindong in his EXCELLENT post (GJ Goum), the EANM changes will solve nothing. The increase to CPU won't hurt 99% of setups. Only a few, and the people who's setups have been ruined will either A) buy faction items to make it fit/work or B) just not fly that setup anymore and fly something else that still works.
All you have accomplished by the EANM nerf is ******* up one or two really fun ships, while the rest of the 'problem' ships continue on their merry way, the same as always.
I'm increadulous as to how a team of four people can sit around, discuss all the possible options for balancing this game, and come up with the horribly malformed ideas that are your game changes. I've never seen any single group of people more incompetent in my life.
Because I said so...
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.08 14:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Belenkas Some timer sure needed to be applied, but 10 minutes... Several dreads could kill the titan during the time. Looks like you will need HUGE support of capitals if you are willing to fire off the doomsday so that enemy doesn't jump a fleet of dreads and melt the titan in a matter of few minutes.
Nope. You need some support, but not a HUGE number. With triage carriers can easily *sustainable* outrep more than their number in dreads on a titan.
1.5 times their numbers in the worst case. If you go for an unsustainable amount of reps a carrier can cancel the dps of 4 dreads for around 75 seconds.
Numbers are here if you want to check them.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.08 14:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Goumindong Your graph is laughable, something is terribly wrong with it. Ingoring the fact that you are using 3 ships that are not gunboats to compare gun damage. You have the Apoc, with 8 guns, cant outdamage a typhoon with 4? It doesnt even get close to the 6 gun domi?
Lol, you do realise it is damage per gun in that graph right?
It cant be, or their numbers are wrong. But then again, if their numbers are wrong[and must are for other reasons as explained in my post]
3.234/7.88/.75 = .547028
3.6/7.88 = .4568
800mm on a phoon does 19.7% more damage than a megapulse on an Apoc.
ed; Of course they seem to be using t1 ammo and not factoring in resistances.
Which basically means that they have constructed a graph that means absolutly nothing. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
clone 1
Caldari The Short Bus Squad The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2007.06.08 14:11:00 -
[27]
I am sorry, but these ideas of Amarr (Thats the correct spelling, Kieron ) 'boosts' seem to me to be ideas born out of time constraints rather than actually thinking and solving the whole Amarr issue.
Nerftastic 4, I love it.
Always Moaning About Race Retardations |
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CCP Abathur
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Posted - 2007.06.08 14:12:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2007 13:45:15 I wanted to comment this as well.
Quote: While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmĘs way with careful placement.
The whole problem is that you CANNOT do this due to smartbombs having bigger ranges than "on paper" for capitals.
We did look into this. We ran an Avatar with seven 10km smartbombs on our test server and set an Interdictor orbiting it at 15km constantly dropping bubbles. The smartbombs had no effect.
"Tux did it!" |
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Darpz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.08 14:16:00 -
[29]
Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2007 13:45:15 I wanted to comment this as well.
Quote: While many capital ships fit smartbombs specifically to counter Warp Disruption Probes, it is possible to keep them out of harmĘs way with careful placement.
The whole problem is that you CANNOT do this due to smartbombs having bigger ranges than "on paper" for capitals.
We did look into this. We ran an Avatar with seven 10km smartbombs on our test server and set an Interdictor orbiting it at 15km constantly dropping bubbles. The smartbombs had no effect.
now take that avatar and change its orientation. I beleave you'll find if the dictors is in the sweetspot it no longer will be and its bubble is blown
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Darpz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.08 14:19:00 -
[30]
Originally by: clone 1 I am sorry, but these ideas of Amarr (Thats the correct spelling, Kieron ) 'boosts' seem to me to be ideas born out of time constraints rather than actually thinking and solving the whole Amarr issue.
Nerftastic 4, I love it.
yah its rather comical how the amarr boost nerfs amarr ships the hardest
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