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Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2012.01.05 22:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Luh Windan wrote:it can be very detrimental assuming you can predict the evolution of a complex system (which Eve undoubtedly is) and solving problems before they occur. Actually, the macro economics of closed virtual economies like eves are pretty well understood. Even CCP stated multiple times that they are unhappy about the imbalance between sinks and faucets (and still, they introduce more faucets, derp). Also see mudflation. |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
198
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Posted - 2012.01.05 22:42:00 -
[32] - Quote
Frankly I'm not bothered how much isk other people have, my thread regarding isk wasn't a compaint about other people being rich. Rather it was an observation how things had changed and how this change had fundamentaly altered the progression dynamic, it used be be the limting factor on ship development was isk and you needed to grind for it if you wanted to achieve something, now adays isk is so easy to come by you could rush through the ship classes as soon as you can train for it.
Though to be fair and give a balnced point of view there are now more things to do ingame when you reach BS's, it used to be you could just do lvl 4's or mine a bit quicker. Now theres a distinct level of playstyle beyond that even if your main direction is not pure PVP (ie low/null in the old days) like incursions or WH's (though there is a Pvp aspect). The game has certainly changed and the amount of isk in peoples wallets is only one aspect of that.
/edit thank god for copy/paste would have hated to have had to type all that again ..
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Macks Artilius
Definitive Exploration and Excavations
0
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Posted - 2012.01.05 22:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
Scortched Merc wrote:I still want to know what is considered rich in this game...
1bil? 5bil? 10bil? 25bil? How ever much Chirbba has?
The same answer as to any other question in EVE. "It depends". Usually it depends on your point-of-view compared with the people around you.
When I found a 1-jump trade route that earned me 1 million isk in my first week, I thought that was a lot of money.
When I found a highsec radar with 12 million of loot inside in my third week, I thought that was a lot of money.
When I took up wormhole diving and made 120M isk in one go I thought that was a lot of money... and I still do actually, but I have faster ways to make that kind of isk now.
When I made my first billion, I thought that was a lot of money.
Now I fly around in a ship worth hundreds of times what I once considered "a lot" of money. The longer you play EVE, the more your perception of the value of isk is skewed. |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
308
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Posted - 2012.01.05 23:52:00 -
[34] - Quote
Luh Windan wrote:DelBoy Trades wrote:OP doesn't understand inflation. I do understand inflation but I'm yet to be convinced that what is going on is as clear cut as that. Secondly, while inflation is a very bad thing in a real world economy (because we use our money to stay alive) it is less clear what the impact would be in Eve (in fact the social issues that can be caused by a seemingly out of control system, which is where inflation eventually leads, might be quite interesting in Eve given we are all armed to the teeth) but hey. received wisdom :- t's inflation stupid. Inflation is bad. End of argument - let's not try and understand anything shall we?
Actually pure inflation is harmless - prices rise, but so too do wages/salaries. And in fact, a small amount of inflation is good for the economy, because it encourages people with money to spend it - due to the fact that their money loses value if they hold on to it.
What is bad for the economy is impure inflation - because prices can rise in one area of the economy, but fall in another area. This uneven change in prices causes some entities to benefit and others to lose.
And of course, hyperinflation is bad, too. |
Luh Windan
S T R A T C O M
50
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Posted - 2012.01.05 23:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:Frankly I'm not bothered how much isk other people have, my thread regarding isk wasn't a compaint about other people being rich. ]
And I wasn't having a go.
It seems that there is a huge amount of received wisdom - essentially "it's inflation stupid don't you know anything"
But beyond that we find that it isn't black and white that there is economy wide inflation but there are some indicators which may show inflation. Secondly the reason inflation is bad in a game like Eve is not for 90% of the rubbish people talk about but because it damages the game for new players and threatens therefore the existence of the game. |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
308
|
Posted - 2012.01.05 23:56:00 -
[36] - Quote
Scortched Merc wrote:I still want to know what is considered rich in this game...
1bil? 5bil? 10bil? 25bil? How ever much Chirbba has?
Linkage
Of course, as others have mentioned, everything is entirely dependent upon your point of view, and more especially on how you spend your money. For many characters, it makes more sense to consider your Net Asset Value (NAV) than how much ISK you have in your wallet. |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
198
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Posted - 2012.01.06 00:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
What has happened in EVE isn't infaltion though. To quote Wiki
Quote:inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.
Now the goods in EVE stay at pretty much the same level (because of the way industry works) our earnings however have increased so everyone has more disposable income.
An example of ingame inflation is a 'purple drop' as it's rare the more people want it and will pay more for it pricing newer players out the market. The more gold people have the more they will pay the bigger the gap gets.
Eve's market doesn't revolve around drops though it revolves around a complex 'crafting' system for want of a better word, where the price of an item is relative to the value of the minerals it can be broken down to (as a baseline at least).
This is essentially a good thing for a new player as they can now buy more stuff given what they earn than players used to be able to.
TLDR
Richer players != Inflation
EVE's market isn't comprable to other MMO's as it mostly 'crafting' based.
More money in your wallet = more fun for noobs
/edit I understand you weren't having a go, I just kinda carried on where I left off in this discussion of a slightly diffrent aspect of the subject, but thanks for pointing it out anyhow
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Surge Roth
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
28
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Posted - 2012.01.06 02:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Because the stupids think things get more expensive or isk loses its value or something dumb like that, when it never does. And if it did, everything affected by it would change along with it to normalize it. |
Rellik B00n
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
118
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 02:37:00 -
[39] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote:easy isk doesn't result in people being any richer, it only results in prices being higher.
kerching there it is. my war dec solution |
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1819
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 03:19:00 -
[40] - Quote
I have a point to make.
1) If the average ISK in a players wallet was 100M, 100M wouldn't be too much, it would be just kind of average ISK that is pretty easy to attain. But now lets say the average ISK in a players wallet was 100B, would 100B mean everybody is rich? No, 100B mean you have an average amount of ISK. So if it's easier to get ISK then everybody gets it, then the people who were previously space rich now become less "rich" in comparison to how they used to be forcing them to grind for more ISK if they want to be rich again. It's this endless cycle that if CCP keeps decreasing the difficulty to get ISK then 100B might eventually mean your wallet is just average, people don't seem to like that. 5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!-á If You Like My Sig, Like Me!-áRemember EVE is EVErything! |
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Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
522
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Posted - 2012.01.06 03:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Any kind of Isk inflation in EVE is a far far less effect on noobs than the fact that few corps will take them due to the way POS and corp permissions work. EVE is hard as hell to solo at first for good reason of which to encourage grouping.
So other issues besides people being isk rich are the problem. Making a new modular corp and POS permission system should help empty hisec quite nicely. |
Nikodiemus
Perkone Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2012.01.06 04:02:00 -
[42] - Quote
The biggest problem with Eve and the Isk market is not people being too easily able to make isk - isk can be a ***** to make by normal or casual or even hobbyist players. The people that make Isk such a pain are those that drain money from the Eve economy and sink it into PLEX.
The argument that PLEX is a xfer of game time from one to another is well and dandy, but if I bought my nyx and fund its upkeep through plex while maintaining a holding character, or at best using my other acct to pay for it, this transfer of time and resources from one player to another is just a sink.
There are many ways where this fella can use isk that doesn't effect the economy byt trading, buying, etc. from that fella, but the point remains.
PLEX creates and extremely complex and difficult to predict economic force in a game where player created actions, especially economies, are central. |
Skydell
Space Mermaids
89
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 04:58:00 -
[43] - Quote
Isk Wealthy is optical.
China server Plex go for 2 billion ISk. That's massive ISK.
Our server also doesn't look at distribution. The people saying there is more ISK in EVE have no way of determining who has that ISK. It's very much at the structural level the same as real world capitalism. Most of it is held by the 1% and I assure you, any of the people reading this is NOT in the 1% group. (Exception might be Chribba)
We all might "think" we are rich and that's reflective of real world too. The truth being, most of us sit on very little in percentage of what is in the game. 99% of the money is in 1% of the wallets.
There is also the issue of asset perspective. That ISK is liquid ships in alliances that won't ever use it. So it's not even really in the game. They keep it in the even they get wiped out and that never happens. Mostly because we see decimations months in advance and can avoid them.
Branch is a good example. Goons did nothing there and won't. They displaced players but Branch residence were in evac as soon as it became clear the unbeatable Goon NAP train was coming. Add to that any ships that are lost don't really require that much ISK to replace because the people who have all the ISK also control the Ship industries. So they keep thier ISK and just stop selling thier minerals, using it to make thier ships. That was the original purpose of it, to replace ships but when no ships need replacement, it becomes surplus and the ISK distribution system kicks in.
The only thing we need to look at is PLEX. When PLEX are at 2 billion a pop, then EVE has hyper inflation because everyone is sitting on 50 billion ISK. |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 07:03:00 -
[44] - Quote
Skydell wrote:The only thing we need to look at is PLEX. When PLEX are at 2 billion a pop, then EVE has hyper inflation because everyone is sitting on 50 billion ISK. That's only one side of the equation. The other is how willing people are to shell out RL cash for a virtual currency. And between china and the western countries that populate most of TQ that parameter is not the same. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids
36
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 07:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote:Skydell wrote:The only thing we need to look at is PLEX. When PLEX are at 2 billion a pop, then EVE has hyper inflation because everyone is sitting on 50 billion ISK. That's only one side of the equation. The other is how willing people are to shell out RL cash for a virtual currency. And between china and the western countries that populate most of TQ that parameter is not the same.
That's real world economics though and while it of course impacts EVE as a business, I would say the RMT value of EVE has far deeper impacts on the virtual economy of EVE.
EVE China has 30K subs. The ability to grind is much higher. The need to PvP off that grind time isn't there. They have null sec NAP that makes goon NAP look like dollarama compared to Wal-mart. I understand you are saying there might be less Plex in the China server. I just don't think that's the reason. I suspect the available plex for the pop is similar to the number here. They just have way more ISK.
That all said, Plex is still the marker for ISK available in game because Plex is the hardest asset in the game, on both servers. |
Selinate
553
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 07:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
shiny faction fit ship > ****** T1 fit ship. |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 07:59:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ocih wrote:That's real world economics though and while it of course impacts EVE as a business, I would say the RMT value of EVE has far deeper impacts on the virtual economy of EVE.
EVE China has 30K subs. The ability to grind is much higher. The need to PvP off that grind time isn't there. They have null sec NAP that makes goon NAP look like dollarama compared to Wal-mart. I understand you are saying there might be less Plex in the China server. I just don't think that's the reason. I suspect the available plex for the pop is similar to the number here. They just have way more ISK.
That all said, Plex is still the marker for ISK available in game because Plex is the hardest asset in the game, on both servers. I agree, I was just pointing out another influencing factor. To confirm PLEX price is strongly correlated with player wealth there we'd have to have some CEVE stats, though. Also do note they are still running Tyrannis, meaning no Incursions, so no 100mil+ isk/h grinding. |
Thredd Necro
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 08:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
Scortched Merc wrote:I still want to know what is considered rich in this game...
1bil? 5bil? 10bil? 25bil? How ever much Chirbba has?
Chribba bought himself CCP for Christmas...using nothing but PLEX.
CCP now stands for Chribba Control Productions...true story...
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams |
Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
63
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 08:16:00 -
[49] - Quote
What I tend to find interesting and notice about the call to nerf varous isk generating activities but largely high sec incursion is that the people shouting about it tend to fall into two catergories:
1) Null seccers who obviously wish to see their area of space given the perks and prestige largely to enthuse interest in their areas and activity.
2) People who have already made billions of isk in various isk generating activities and now want to see them nerfed so as to disadvantage those who havent had the similar opportunity, meanwhile conveniantly hanging onto their own assests.
If this wasnt the case why are people tending to be concerned about where the grass seems greener?
I have seen very little in terms of inflation due to what people like to point out as problematic isk generators, and claim every possible cause under the sun to label them as such as a result, when likley other factors are contrinutaory to the changes.
E.g. Plex price spike was claimed as being an incursion issue, and yet unsuprisingly the spike occured around the advent of the crucible expansion. Largely making the spike attributable to people extending their accounts and/or people returning to the game. Had it been a problem due to other issues it would have largley been seen to effect it gradually over a longer term whilst those activities where occuring.
Also very little detail has fallen out of economic understanding as a study to identify where the isk is flowing and wether more isk sinks or other needs are required. I'd prefer to see this understanding to be able to make "informed" decisions. But am hoping CCP have this awareness as I expect due to their dedicated economic staff. And largely I doubt it is a real problem else they would have changed things or not introduced them as is originally.
In conclusion and the point I want to make is I wish there was a proper study to understand these issues and not to be misslead by people using propoganda for their own particular interests. |
Keat0n
The Pakk Syndicate Capax Infinitus
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 08:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:1000 people out of 50k can get rich and then can get even richer with no effort whatsoever
Rest doing all the work to scrap by month to month..
Seems it works as intended, considering EVE is an capitalistic world. Whining about high sec missioners, incursion runners is pathetic.. Incursion 100 people can get rich ... high sec missioner non can get rich unless they are 23/7 100 ppl vs 1k vs 48900 .. seems like good ratio for wealth distribution .. those 1k are far more richer than those 100 ppl can even dream of.
Last time I checked incursions were open to everyone. |
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Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 09:06:00 -
[51] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:I'd prefer to see this understanding to be able to make "informed" decisions. But am hoping CCP have this awareness as I expect due to their dedicated economic staff. As one of the 30-ish people at last fanfests economy round table with Dr. EyoG I confirm that CCP is aware and unhappy about the imbalance of isk entering and leaving the economy. At that moment, they wanted to introduce more sinks, but were unsure how to do it. And by judging the current situation, they still are.
Quote:If this wasnt the case why are people tending to be concerned about where the grass seems greener? ... In conclusion and the point I want to make is I wish there was a proper study to understand these issues and not to be misslead by people using propoganda for their own particular interests. I find it small-minded that people assume there must always be an ulterior motive for an interest in balancing, or in this case, macro-economics. But this being eve, I can't really blame ya... |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1249
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 09:10:00 -
[52] - Quote
Keat0n wrote:Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:1000 people out of 50k can get rich and then can get even richer with no effort whatsoever
Rest doing all the work to scrap by month to month..
Seems it works as intended, considering EVE is an capitalistic world. Whining about high sec missioners, incursion runners is pathetic.. Incursion 100 people can get rich ... high sec missioner non can get rich unless they are 23/7 100 ppl vs 1k vs 48900 .. seems like good ratio for wealth distribution .. those 1k are far more richer than those 100 ppl can even dream of. Last time I checked incursions were open to everyone.
last time i checked 20 ppl in uber ships takes all .. competing crap takes non.. go figure.. If you move 50k ppl to high sec incursion .. than there will be more those 20 ppl uber fleets, but still only one of them will get payed. |
Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
63
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 09:17:00 -
[53] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:I'd prefer to see this understanding to be able to make "informed" decisions. But am hoping CCP have this awareness as I expect due to their dedicated economic staff. As one of the 30-ish people at last fanfests economy round table with Dr. EyoG I confirm that CCP is aware and unhappy about the imbalance of isk entering and leaving the economy. At that moment, they wanted to introduce more sinks, but were unsure how to do it. And by judging the current situation, they still are. Quote:If this wasnt the case why are people tending to be concerned about where the grass seems greener? ... In conclusion and the point I want to make is I wish there was a proper study to understand these issues and not to be misslead by people using propoganda for their own particular interests. I find it small-minded that people assume there must always be an ulterior motive for an interest in balancing, or in this case, macro-economics. But this being eve, I can't really blame ya...
I was aware of the conclusions of the need for isk sinks. But it still doesnt make a full study of all the isk generating activities. I'd expect income generation from NPC missions will largley generate more isk overall in the player base than some activities and yet this isk generation isnt equally challenged. So irrespective of wether isk sinks are required it doesnt identify which activities may be most causing the issues. So people naturally jump to possible obvious conclusions because it suits their selfish interests.
And its not an assumption, my conclusions are derived from actual experince of talking to various people within eve who have admitted to such aswell as simply revealing there interests so nothing to blame. I'd say look to yourself hypocrit about projecting upon me your own assumptions.
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Ocih
Space Mermaids
36
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Posted - 2012.01.06 09:32:00 -
[54] - Quote
This is all symptomatic though. Making ISK be it in Incursions, WH, low sec or where ever. That's not the problem.
Over 8 years, CCP have nerfed, nerfed and nerfed again. They do this based on the amount of ISK in the game. None of that nerfing has worked though because it isn't removing the ISK from the game. We see EVE as a spreadsheet in Space, so do CCP. They need to figure out how to pry those trillions of ISK out of the alliance wallets. They need to make those alliances want to spend that money though. Nerfs won't work. They need more content that will matter to those alliances.
The reason it needs to be done is to allow CCP to see with thier spreadsheets how much ISK is needed. They can't do that with static ISK clouding the spreadsheets.
Why did we get handed L3 battle cruisers?
Want an Idea, CCP? Real player R&D. Allow Goons to make a Goon supercap. Through R&D that takes alot of money to research. Allow them to make thier own player agents (us) and allow them to create prototype BPC's that can then be either used or copied say 5 copies per prototype with more material added?
Make it a sink, not an ISK trade, make it realistic to get it done. Make it worth it. Real crafting in EVE anyone? |
Luh Windan
S T R A T C O M
51
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 09:44:00 -
[55] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote: As one of the 30-ish people at last fanfests economy round table with Dr. EyoG I confirm that CCP is aware and unhappy about the imbalance of isk entering and leaving the economy. At that moment, they wanted to introduce more sinks, but were unsure how to do it. And by judging the current situation, they still are.
Given their new enthusiasm for Eve and the lessons learned perhaps they could be encouraged to release recent economy figures (there were reports years ago but I haven't seen one for a while).
There are clearly some very smart players (not me obv. ) and it would be nice to have some real insight instead of the idle speculation which, as I think this thread has brought out, contains some nuggets of wisdom mixed with an awful lot of noise.
Aineko - you mentioned there is research into virtual world economies - do you have any good links or references? |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
180
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 11:27:00 -
[56] - Quote
Luh Windan wrote:IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Because it makes the game mostly pointless if losses don't hurt.
In 2004 BS were a big deal and losing one hurt, now most people shrug off capital and faction BS losses like they don't matter. I don't buy this at all. I don't PvP because it's going to hurt me - I PvP because it's unpredictable and thrilling, because it's pitting your wits against another human being (and I enjoy fighting smarter people even when I loose than I do the dumb kills). When I lose a ship it's a lesson to be learned. A challenge to rise to. I couldn't care less about the isk - that's just an annoyance. (and I agree that there should be some inertia - ie. some cost because otherwise it does have less meaning. but that cost doesn't need to be painful)
When i started eve somewhere 2003ish it took me 3 months to get a battleship together as the isk gains was a LOT less then now and also the ships available a LOT less.So when i finally had my raven i dived into nullsec to loose it only a few minutes later.I can ensure you that it HURTS to see months of work vanish in a second.
Now i just dive into low-sec every few months or so in 1.5 to 2 B faction tengu's and loose them left and right without giving a **** wich in the end makes pvp -at least for me - a LOT less thrilling to do.Sometimes i wish back for the days when it gave a big rush to see your shields get melted. |
Dyner
Midgard Protectorate
74
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 11:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:Because it makes the game mostly pointless if losses don't hurt.
In 2004 BS were a big deal and losing one hurt, now most people shrug off capital and faction BS losses like they don't matter.
That's cause we're honey badgers |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
327
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 11:33:00 -
[58] - Quote
IM RICH BIATCH! |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
181
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 15:48:00 -
[59] - Quote
Dbars Grinding wrote:IM RICH BIATCH!
Me too but you don't see me calling people names |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
295
|
Posted - 2012.01.06 16:32:00 -
[60] - Quote
Thredd Necro wrote:Scortched Merc wrote:I still want to know what is considered rich in this game...
1bil? 5bil? 10bil? 25bil? How ever much Chirbba has? Chribba bought himself CCP for Christmas...using nothing but PLEX. CCP now stands for Chribba Control Productions...true story...
and here i thought it meant Chribba's Carebear Policy Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs. |
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