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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Kunelk
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:30:00 -
[1]
I'm new to eve online and I just read that huge fleet battle with over 200 ships, lags a crapload lot and everything. How can those be even fun or entertaining? How could this be even remotly fine?
I can understand we are all on on single server and its complicated... But serioulsy? How can this be acceptable?
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:33:00 -
[2]
Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 00:33:16
Originally by: Kunelk I'm new to eve online and I just read that huge fleet battle with over 200 ships, lags a crapload lot and everything. How can those be even fun or entertaining? How could this be even remotly fine?
I can understand we are all on on single server and its complicated... But serioulsy? How can this be acceptable?
200 ships are survivable "but bearly", though i've seen with one with 400 ships that time the lag was seriously killer. "Battle for I-N". Not to mention all the fighters.
EVE handles things pretty well all things considered. In the end huge battles happen. Best you can do is work with it. ____________
Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20. |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:34:00 -
[3]
The solution is to not see a force of 100 enemies and think "HAY IF WE BRING 300 WE CAN BEAT THEM!"
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:37:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dark Shikari The solution is to not see a force of 100 enemies and think "HAY IF WE BRING 300 WE CAN BEAT THEM!"
True that, but I gather it was the other way round. That is, that TCF + friends had 300 in system doing POS warfare stuffs, and BoB cyno'd a 100 strong fleet in to fight them.
Which begs the question- if there are 300 people destroying your POS's, and you DON'T bring in the blob, what DO you do? Leave them to much on your towers? --------
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Chelone
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:38:00 -
[5]
CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Admus
Mobius Construct Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:50:00 -
[7]
If I'm not mistaken, a ton of optimizations and changes have been made in the new graphics engine, being released in Revelations 3. I will try to find the devblog for linky...
---------------------------------------------------------- "Villains always have antidotes. They're funny that way." |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:00:00 -
[8]
Everything I've seen about what people want in MMO's suggests walking in stations is CCP's best business decision ever.
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torswin
Caldari Capital Productions Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:01:00 -
[9]
Edited by: torswin on 27/06/2007 01:01:42
Originally by: Admus If I'm not mistaken, a ton of optimizations and changes have been made in the new graphics engine, being released in Revelations 3. I will try to find the devblog for linky...
But please do not mix up network lag and performance. I believe the real issue is network lag and the node is totally overloaded which makes the client halting while waiting for network data. EVE is single threaded (that desition was a bad one, CCP) so i guess thats why there's so much lag in the systems.
Yea, and of course the graphic engine being 7 years old or something and doesn't utilise graphic card at all except for anti-aliasing.
edit: Don't take me for a bessewisser though :) even though this reply might sound a bit arrogant, it wasnt my intention ---
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: torswin Edited by: torswin on 27/06/2007 01:01:42
Originally by: Admus If I'm not mistaken, a ton of optimizations and changes have been made in the new graphics engine, being released in Revelations 3. I will try to find the devblog for linky...
But please do not mix up network lag and performance. I believe the real issue is network lag and the node is totally overloaded which makes the client halting while waiting for network data. EVE is single threaded (that desition was a bad one, CCP) so i guess thats why there's so much lag in the systems.
Yea, and of course the graphic engine being 7 years old or something and doesn't utilise graphic card at all except for anti-aliasing.
edit: Don't take me for a bessewisser though :) even though this reply might sound a bit arrogant, it wasnt my intention
It's not network lag. It's server CPU "lock up" from the load. The client is just poorly written (single threading has nothing to do with it, it should never have a blocking call on the graphics rendering system).
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torswin
Caldari Capital Productions Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: James Duar
It's not network lag. It's server CPU "lock up" from the load. The client is just poorly written (single threading has nothing to do with it, it should never have a blocking call on the graphics rendering system).
To be honest I do not really know that exactly threading is except it allows several operations run simontainiously(sp?). But I did not understand what you meant with "server CPU "lock up" from the load".
You mean it kind of drives itself into a ditch and get a total stop in processing or is it just that it cannot process fast enough? ---
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Nadjer
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:30:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Nadjer on 27/06/2007 01:29:53 Forgive me if this has been said before as i'm fairly new but, wouldn't it alliviate the problem if when you got say more than 200-300 people in a system you got transferred to a dedicated server to handle the load. This would involve pause in play for anyone in the system and people comming in would get a slight delay maybe but i'd rather suffer a 30 second wait that have to play through a slideshow.
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:33:00 -
[13]
Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:33:10
Originally by: Nadjer Forgive me if this has been said before as i'm fairly new but, wouldn't it alliate the problem if when you got say more than 200-300 people in a system you got transferred to a dedicated server to handle the load. This would involve pause in play for anyone in the system and people comming in would get a slight delay maybe but i'd rather suffer a 30 second wait that have to play through a slideshow.
If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400 man situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects" that would arise. ____________
Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20. |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: torswin
Originally by: James Duar
It's not network lag. It's server CPU "lock up" from the load. The client is just poorly written (single threading has nothing to do with it, it should never have a blocking call on the graphics rendering system).
To be honest I do not really know that exactly threading is except it allows several operations run simontainiously(sp?). But I did not understand what you meant with "server CPU "lock up" from the load".
You mean it kind of drives itself into a ditch and get a total stop in processing or is it just that it cannot process fast enough?
Multi-threading is essentially a time-sharing arrangement on the CPU to allow the illusion of concurrent execution, made slightly more real by multi-core systems. But! It has all sorts of problems and can be a ***** to code for because you need to keep the threads synchronized.
However, there's no reason a single threaded game can't do multiple things at once. Modern graphics card GPUs are designed on the basis that they are a lot faster then the CPU and so when you need to render a frame you just dump triangles onto the card and go prepare for the next frame.
In addition to this though, in your graphics pipeline (a loop in the application essentially) you should never be calling into a function that may "wait" on something external like network data - if the data isn't there, it should leave it and render a new frame anyway.
The problem with the EVE client is that it appears there are numerous times when a costly (long) function executes, and the client just waits and waits and waits while it finishes rather then continuing to render frames and doing a little bit more of it each time.
re: server lock up - I picked the term from a dev, but as they describe it the server is basically overwhelmed by tasks so it's spending all its time trying to clear the backlog and eventually connections drop etc.
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Nadjer
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:45:00 -
[15]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:07
Originally by: Nadjer Forgive me if this has been said before as i'm fairly new but, wouldn't it alliate the problem if when you got say more than 200-300 people in a system you got transferred to a dedicated server to handle the load. This would involve pause in play for anyone in the system and people comming in would get a slight delay maybe but i'd rather suffer a 30 second wait that have to play through a slideshow.
If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server.
I'm sure CCP said they had done this for several large battle at one of their conventions. All it would really take is a flash of everyones position, health and munitions which is basically a stack of co-ordinates, EVERYTHING is a relatively small amount of data to transmit between servers. The recieving server would already have the system in question loaded and then you are switched to it. I can't see it being that much of a nightmare.
The problem with nodes is they have several systems to deal with at once. If there was a server for each system there would be no problem but you'd need several aircraft hangers and an army of tech support to run that lol.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:47 If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server. Even then it would go from a 2 minute lag time to maybe 45 seconds.
The server does hand offs all the time when people jump through gates, the issue is that when 300 people fight on one grid there's a good chance there's a lot more then 300 people being managed by the node on other grids.
There's no reason though that it couldn't stop the simulation for those 300 clients and then carefully move the connections to a new server. The RAMdrive has nothing to do with player actions, it's purely a CPU issue AFAIK.
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Richard Aiel
Caldari MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
Yeah but those things dont make them monmey AFTER those ftree trials run out. Cause if the lag situation isnt fixed, Those that start free trials arent gonna continue em...
Irony: Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true |
DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:52:00 -
[18]
Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:52:52
Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:47 If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server. Even then it would go from a 2 minute lag time to maybe 45 seconds.
The server does hand offs all the time when people jump through gates, the issue is that when 300 people fight on one grid there's a good chance there's a lot more then 300 people being managed by the node on other grids.
There's no reason though that it couldn't stop the simulation for those 300 clients and then carefully move the connections to a new server. The RAMdrive has nothing to do with player actions, it's purely a CPU issue AFAIK.
you've never seen 300+ people jump into a system at the same time have you? Also note that there's a huge difference between 300 people on a node and 300 people on the grid.
See 2 people on grid player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 1
3 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2
4 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 player 1 gets info on player 4 Player 2 gets info on player 1 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 4 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2 player 3 gets info on player 4 Player 4 gets info on player 1 Player 4 gets info on player 2 player 4 gets info on player 3
5 players on grid ....
it's all becomes exponential when it's all on the same grid. HUGE difference then when they're all at seperate locations. ____________
Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
Yeah but those things dont make them monmey AFTER those ftree trials run out. Cause if the lag situation isnt fixed, Those that start free trials arent gonna continue em...
Free trial people are not typically found partaking in 0.0 fleet battles. -
You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means |
Lady Natacha
Minmatar Water and Power
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:59:00 -
[20]
Most all of CCP's lag issues and poor game performance can be solved via improving their software. They already have some of the best and fastest hardware in the world, the problem is that software applications (and developers) have not been able to scale in tandem with Moore's law.
Multithreaded application design processes have been around for a long time (20 years?) but adoption has been slow because shortcomings in software performance have been more easily overcome by using faster, larger and less expensive hardware.
When CCP rewrites large sections of its code you will notice an improvement. When they just patch things, not so much..
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:01:00 -
[21]
Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 02:00:39
Originally by: Lady Natacha
When CCP rewrites large sections of its code you will notice an improvement. When they just patch things, not so much..
Yup then instead of performance everyone will be whining about paying for an beta test version of EVE, all bugs included! ____________
Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20. |
Lady Natacha
Minmatar Water and Power
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:02:00 -
[22]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 02:00:39
Originally by: Lady Natacha
When CCP rewrites large sections of its code you will notice an improvement. When they just patch things, not so much..
Yup then instead of performance everyone will be whining about paying for an beta test version of EVE, all bugs included!
Which is really where we are at now, but in beta instead of alpha.
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Nimitz Alexander
Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:03:00 -
[23]
phh we lagged out a region ealier... with 50 ships shooting at one small pos
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:52:52
Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:47 If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server. Even then it would go from a 2 minute lag time to maybe 45 seconds.
The server does hand offs all the time when people jump through gates, the issue is that when 300 people fight on one grid there's a good chance there's a lot more then 300 people being managed by the node on other grids.
There's no reason though that it couldn't stop the simulation for those 300 clients and then carefully move the connections to a new server. The RAMdrive has nothing to do with player actions, it's purely a CPU issue AFAIK.
you've never seen 300+ people jump into a system at the same time have you? Also note that there's a huge difference between 300 people on a node and 300 people on the grid.
See 2 people on grid player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 1
3 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2
4 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 player 1 gets info on player 4 Player 2 gets info on player 1 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 4 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2 player 3 gets info on player 4 Player 4 gets info on player 1 Player 4 gets info on player 2 player 4 gets info on player 3
5 players on grid ....
it's all becomes exponential when it's all on the same grid. HUGE difference then when they're all at seperate locations.
Quadratic, not exponential.
But still bad.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Zeonos
Amarr Fairtrade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:08:00 -
[25]
note, that no other ship that i know of can support 300+ people in one location without lag..
Image gallery with some of the new ship models.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:08:00 -
[26]
Note I said "carefully". There's something of a difference between the server bum rushing to get 300 people onto grid simultaneously while also running a simulation for X number of other ships.
In the case we're talking about it's some hypothetical dedicated server and no one's playing on it till it's got all the connections lined up.
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max bygraves
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Posted - 2007.06.27 04:43:00 -
[27]
Quote: How can this be acceptable?
Because its only a game, Everything is this world is not perfect u/f, even though mummy tells you so. Also nearly every other mmo lags with a 200 man battle also.
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Richard Aiel
Caldari MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.06.27 04:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
Yeah but those things dont make them monmey AFTER those ftree trials run out. Cause if the lag situation isnt fixed, Those that start free trials arent gonna continue em...
Free trial people are not typically found partaking in 0.0 fleet battles.
So its an issue of milking ppl of their money till they find out they cant do the fleet battles cause the servers are made of paper mache?
Irony: Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.27 05:00:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
Yeah but those things dont make them monmey AFTER those ftree trials run out. Cause if the lag situation isnt fixed, Those that start free trials arent gonna continue em...
Free trial people are not typically found partaking in 0.0 fleet battles.
So its an issue of milking ppl of their money till they find out they cant do the fleet battles cause the servers are made of paper mache?
You are learning, young padawan!
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.06.27 05:58:00 -
[30]
Originally by: DubanFP
it's all becomes exponential when it's all on the same grid. HUGE difference then when they're all at seperate locations. The computer would have to transfer all this information and bring EVERYONE up to date at the same time.
Yes, but this is true for every mmorpg. How come a WoW server can handle 100 people shooting at eachother (remember Tarren Mill?) without severe lag? Thats just one server, not a supercluster like Eve has.
Im not really understanding why the amount of data sent should be any different. Locations, damage, server doing calculations for hits and misses etc. The Eve cluster is hell of a lot stronger than one of those WoW servers ever was.
I think its basically just old code laying around. The new network layer might make things a lot better.
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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