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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:40:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Pizi on 27/06/2007 12:40:12 Same can be seen in WoW. Log in to Iron Forge. Hundres of people around kinda like jumping in to a grid fill with hostile forces. WoW like most other games does not lock the client it allows you to run around an move check mail and interact with the world. As the grid updates people pop up. It's not that they weren't there before you saw them it's that your client just hadn't gotten an update for them yet. ----------------------------
thats an great example
in the beginning loggin into IF would freeze the client and if there were to many players the client desynced and the server dropped you
it took me 4 or 5 times loggin in to stay with the client frozen for minutes
Blizzard chaned it to the way described above good move from them now you log in, see only the enviroment and the client slowely catches up doesnt take long 2 min max but thats way better then what we have in EVE now
_______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
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Ciuci
FinFleet
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:45:00 -
[122]
after jump-bridge ... I was in a stars screen for like 2 minutes ... then planets appeared ... and then another 2-3 minutes for the overview to load ... after that everything was something like 5-7 sec of activation time ... looting was kinda hard ... and scanning also ... took like 10-15 seconds to load the result from the scan probes ... I warped out and in of the battle like 4 times and everything was smooth. Get a better ISP and a better computer and things will work better. And don't engage in big fleet fight with 3 accounts ffs.
my2cents
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Scavok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:48:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:51:14 Battles in wwiiol are similar in complexity and scale. Their solution was the "64 limit" where people only received updates for 64 other players. Players were never invisible to each other, if you had someone loaded, they had you loaded. As CRS (devs of wwiiol) improved their hardware and code, they increased the player limit. The downside to this in wwiiol was players randomly vanishing and appearing. There would be more downsides in eve but I think it would be a better solution than hardcoding a player limit into the game.
And yeah, this has nothing to do with the desynch that is completely gamebreaking and not related to normal lag. It needs to be fixed asap. When my gang desynched in dreadnoughts and carriers the other day we were still able to jump out of the system, despite the game acting as if I had completely lost connection.
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N'olive
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:50:00 -
[124]
Edited by: N''olive on 27/06/2007 12:51:34 What's wrong is the communication between the Eve client and it's server, last night I had 30+ FPS and still I was frozen in space. I'm running a Dual-Core 6700 with 4GB RAM and ATIx1950 PRO able to easily run most of recent 3D games at 100+ FPS high-res, my Eve is optimized with all the possible tricks, client hardware isn't the culprit.
It is something that was introduced since rev II.
HOW COME this game isn't able to put a message on screen when it gets no reply from the server after few seconds ?!? That's level zero of programming, checking that a client and a server are synched to avoid loss of datas.
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:51:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Scavok Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:48:02 Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:47:31 Battles in wwiiol are similar in complexity and scale. Their solution was the "64 limit" where people only received updates for 64 other players. Players were never invisible to each other, if you had someone loaded, they had you loaded. As CRS (devs of wwiiol) improved their hardware and code, they increased the player limit. There is obviously a downside to this, but I think it would be a better solution than hardcoding a player limit into the game.
That would NEVER work in eve. In fleets people are called primaries, now if you didn't know who had which people loaded then you would NEVER be able to keep the battle organized. ____________
Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20. |
Richard Aiel
Caldari MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:54:00 -
[126]
What are these customization tricks everyone keeps referring to to reduce lag? Irony: Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true |
ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:54:00 -
[127]
actually, i fink focused fire was something the devs were looking at.
by disabling the overview when tow or more gangs of, say 100+ ships met, ccp could probably claw back a few FPS.
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Istian Goss
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:54:00 -
[128]
<sarcasm> Can somebody please point me towards the wonderful game that allows 100s of players (on screen/shooting at each other) at once with no lag?
I get the impression from this thread that such a game is possible.... </sarcasm>
Seriously though a couple of points: 1. Can older players elaborate on how eve's lag has changed over time? I've been told it used to be much worse, when did it previously lock up?
2. Part of the problem (I think) is node balancing. I mean Jita is usually fairly stable because it gets its own node and lots of resources because it has a constant high occupancy. Most of the fleet fights occur in 0.0 where normally there are only a few ppl per system. Hence its a node per constellation or so. So when you put 400 ppl in the same system, on the same grid, trouble occurs.
Am I right in saying that node balancing only occurs at d/t?
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Scavok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:55:00 -
[129]
Originally by: DubanFP
Originally by: Scavok Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:48:02 Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:47:31 Battles in wwiiol are similar in complexity and scale. Their solution was the "64 limit" where people only received updates for 64 other players. Players were never invisible to each other, if you had someone loaded, they had you loaded. As CRS (devs of wwiiol) improved their hardware and code, they increased the player limit. There is obviously a downside to this, but I think it would be a better solution than hardcoding a player limit into the game.
That would NEVER work in eve. In fleets people are called primaries, now if you didn't know who had which people loaded then you would NEVER be able to keep the battle organized.
Yeah, it would be tough and tactics would need to change, but sometimes I think it would be better than what we have currently. Although it would have to be a lot higher than 64 as that would be a little nuts.
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N'olive
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:59:00 -
[130]
Edited by: N''olive on 27/06/2007 12:58:07
Quote: Anyhow, claims that only the coalition forces suffered from horrible lag are unfounded. The whole battle was one gigantic lagfest for both sides and not a whole lot of fun, all things considered.
Wrong, coalition (already in the system) suffered a massive de-synch, alliance (entering via jump portal) suffered a huge lag.
I'm not discussing wich one is better, and who are the good and the bad guys, I don't care, it's just that TECHNICALLY it happened like this.
We all agree (apart the trolls maybe) that it was boring for both sides.
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Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:03:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Istian Goss
<sarcasm> Can somebody please point me towards the wonderful game that allows 100s of players (on screen/shooting at each other) at once with no lag?
I get the impression from this thread that such a game is possible.... </sarcasm>
well DAOC has quite a few 100 people at relict raids
it could handle 300 or 400 without mayor lag if more show up it had the same problems
_______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
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Richard Aiel
Caldari MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:03:00 -
[132]
Well i guess im a troll then cause according to all the kills BoB got and all the hundreds of posts of smack in the other thread they liked very much what happened and didnt seem bored at all.
Irony: Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true |
Antonia Nambaun
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:06:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Antonia Nambaun on 27/06/2007 13:07:30 Ignore - alt.
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Reithan
Caldari LEGI0N SOUL CARTEL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:07:00 -
[134]
I hate to make this example, but maybe CCP should contact NCSoft. NCSoft's Lineage 2 has large-scale seige battle where you have several hundred people fighting all on the same screen and the only lag I've ever heard of was client-side. Hell, i fyou've got a good enough computer (like me), there's NO lag.
So, if Lineage can handle battles with nearly a thousand people without the server lagging, how come EVE can't handle one with even a couple hundred?
CCP, please talk to NCSoft and get them to teach you their 1337 non-lagging skillz. |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:09:00 -
[135]
Edited by: James Duar on 27/06/2007 13:10:53 There's no technical reason keeping the client in sync and framerate need to be linked, the client just needs to be written to gracefully handle this situation (i.e. keep rendering frames but represent the process of syncing by reduced passage of time - this is not technically a very difficult exercise).
Anyway I have my doubts that's what's happening - the slide show is because the client is loading/waiting for things when it shouldn't, and the fact you observe "module lag" indicates it normally is supposed to keep rendering when updates aren't coming from the server.
IMO the answer really is to just slow down time when server load increases - time running slower for everyone means that their are fewer damage calculations per second, fewer collision tests (ships can only have moved so far in the slow time frame so more can be excluded from paired-tests) and it means that lag prediction works better in the client because it's unlikely the ships change their status drastically between server ticks.
EDIT: Of course I suppose it's an issue in terms of simulating the rest of the world. Still, no reason not to just do it for 1 grid I suppose - while there could be issues of being able to reinforce ridiculously fast, I would think they'd be somewhat minor.
An alternative option would simply be to reduce the granularity of combat as load increases - dial up weapon damages/rep amounts.
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Da Ram
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:16:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Da Ram on 27/06/2007 13:15:34
I ve been a while to the game. So far I have not seen or been in any battle with more than 60 people in the same grid.
However I am now advancing to the player "age" where I would like to finally participate in such fleet battles as advertised by CCP.
It is quite sad to read that this vital part of Eve, one that keeps veteran players in game, does not only not work but is wholly broken.
The result of this is twofold:
a) CCP obviously does not want to cater to veterans much b) More and more Veterans will leave due to this
Reading that this game always had issues with fleet battles and "will always have them" does not improve the situation much.
But what really is the killer is that CCP is not commenting on this in any proper way thinkable. Moreso "broken" fleet battles of 1000+ players are referred to as great successes and used to draw in more paying customers.
What to do ?
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Ambre Blanche
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:17:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Ztrain The solution is what is commonly refered to as the Hop effect. I'll try to explain. In EVE watch when your in warp to gate with large number of friendly forces. Not in combat just say a roaving gang. You client right before loading the grid will freeze as it gets the update. EVE is coded so that if it doesn't have all the information is locks until it believes it has all the information. That is what prevents in large fleet engagements things from happening. For example in a laggy situation when you initiate a warp and get "desynced." When you log back in you find that you log back in where you warped too. Why because your client sent the warp command to the server and it was processed. So server side you had warped period. Same for locking activating guns everything that happens.
The problem is you don't see this happening. Why? Because your client isn't told the information from the server? No. The reason why is because the EVE client is designed to not display anything until it has what it percieves as, "the whole picture." And as that picture changes the client realizes ops there a new person on grid I can't do anything until I know where exactly their state is. The problem is with hundres of people all on grid it is nearly impossible for the entire picture to be known by any client at any given point in time. So everyone sits and sits while their clients wait to get all the updates.
I know of no other MMO that does does this. The problem is the same lag and massive numbers in the same vicinity but what other more experienced development teams have discovered is the hop effect. Never ever under any circumstances lock the gameplay for the player (like EVE does). Take two clients in EverQuest and put on on /follow of the other. Run in a direction and turn the character in the front a couple degress to the left or right. On the client in front your see the change imeaditly. On the character in back you will continue to run until it gets the update then the person in front will hop to where it is at the time of the update. The client will not freeze.
Same can be seen in WoW. Log in to Iron Forge. Hundres of people around kinda like jumping in to a grid fill with hostile forces. WoW like most other games does not lock the client it allows you to run around an move check mail and interact with the world. As the grid updates people pop up. It's not that they weren't there before you saw them it's that your client just hadn't gotten an update for them yet.
But the big difference that most more experienced developers have found out is never lock the client. There is nothing more irritating players then not being able to do anything. If when loading a grid players can still move and lock and start to "play" with what they can see their a lot happies and have more enjoyable experience.
Couldn't say it better. Contemplating a frozen screen during 15 minutes KNOWING that my whole fleet was probably being slaughtered was a clear insult to my credit card.
Ambre.
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:17:00 -
[138]
Let me ask you guys that want this lag to be fixed one question. Just one and you just need to give me one answer.
Name one game that can hold 300 people fighting eachother where the lag is less that eve's?
Small story. I recruited a friend to the game, she had just started and was doing missions. I created a newb alt and went to do a few missions with you. Found out she was doing missions right next to jita. Not good, anyway I told her you should go somewhere else away for jita. She had no idea what jita was, so to get to this certain system we had to go through jita. I said there is 600 people in this system. She was shocked. In reply she said '600 people? On xbox live we only get 16 people playing'
Really makes you think what a special game this is.
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Zombak
Caldari Shooshpunk
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:17:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Istian Goss
<sarcasm> Can somebody please point me towards the wonderful game that allows 100s of players (on screen/shooting at each other) at once with no lag?
I get the impression from this thread that such a game is possible.... </sarcasm> d/t?
Dark age of camelot ?
Signature inappropriate and removed. All sigs must be in English as per forum rules - Valorem |
midge Mo'yb
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:19:00 -
[140]
Lag is bearable, you get used to it and you usually both suffer from it, De-sync on the other hand is a pain in the ass as you usually end up dead....
IMO sorting out this desync prolbem that has become very common since rev2 should be ccp's priority :)
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Zombak
Caldari Shooshpunk
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:20:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Depp Knight Let me ask you guys that want this lag to be fixed one question. Just one and you just need to give me one answer.
Name one game that can hold 300 people fighting eachother where the lag is less that eve's?
Small story. I recruited a friend to the game, she had just started and was doing missions. I created a newb alt and went to do a few missions with you. Found out she was doing missions right next to jita. Not good, anyway I told her you should go somewhere else away for jita. She had no idea what jita was, so to get to this certain system we had to go through jita. I said there is 600 people in this system. She was shocked. In reply she said '600 people? On xbox live we only get 16 people playing'
Really makes you think what a special game this is.
xbox as benchmark for mmorpg performance really made me smile.
Signature inappropriate and removed. All sigs must be in English as per forum rules - Valorem |
War Games
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:20:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Reithan So, if Lineage can handle battles with nearly a thousand people without the server lagging, how come EVE can't handle one with even a couple hundred?
CCP, please talk to NCSoft and get them to teach you their 1337 non-lagging skillz.
Lineage doesn't do 20k on one "virtual server" (IE the entire cluster IS the EVE server). Let's not start comparing apples to oranges... it just sounds dumb. What Gaming Dev's really think of you! |
Da Ram
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:24:00 -
[143]
Actually I just came across a different train of thought.
All of you - any participating in a fleet battle larger than 100 people breach the EULA :P
CONDUCT A. Specifically Restricted Conduct
Your continued access to the System and license to play the Game is subject to proper conduct. Without limiting CCP's rights to control the Game environment, and the conduct of the players within that environment, CCP prohibits the following practices that CCP has determined detract from the overall user experience of the users playing the Game:
1. You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System.
Sorry, but sometimes madness seems to be the only recourse.
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Gozmoth
Amarr Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:35:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Ztrain The solution is what is commonly refered to as the Hop effect. [...]
That's exactly what we have experienced, we saw no lag, only this "hop effect" !
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Laah T'Sin
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:35:00 -
[145]
Quote: Is there a game out there that accomodates such fighting without lag?
Actually yes. Take a look at SOEs PlanetSide. It's only a mindless shooter but i've had many many fights with HUNDREDS of players from many sides fighting eachother in one place at one time with an absolut minimum of lag. I mean the performance is so good that you can still snipe ppl in the head from 500 yards (so the lag can't be more then a few milliseconds).
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Big Al
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:39:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Reithan I hate to make this example, but maybe CCP should contact NCSoft. NCSoft's Lineage 2 has large-scale seige battle where you have several hundred people fighting all on the same screen and the only lag I've ever heard of was client-side. Hell, i fyou've got a good enough computer (like me), there's NO lag.
Clearly cat ears are the solution.
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mr bighelmet
EnTech Pax Familia
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:44:00 -
[147]
Originally by: War Games
Originally by: Reithan So, if Lineage can handle battles with nearly a thousand people without the server lagging, how come EVE can't handle one with even a couple hundred?
CCP, please talk to NCSoft and get them to teach you their 1337 non-lagging skillz.
Lineage doesn't do 20k on one "virtual server" (IE the entire cluster IS the EVE server). Let's not start comparing apples to oranges... it just sounds dumb.
It doesn't metter how many people are on the server only how many people are on the same node/computer. and If Lineage can handle 100s Vs 100s PvP then it's time to CCP to higher some coder from there.
If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest |
Ambre Blanche
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:49:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Depp Knight Let me ask you guys that want this lag to be fixed one question. Just one and you just need to give me one answer.
Name one game that can hold 300 people fighting eachother where the lag is less that eve's?
Small story. I recruited a friend to the game, she had just started and was doing missions. I created a newb alt and went to do a few missions with you. Found out she was doing missions right next to jita. Not good, anyway I told her you should go somewhere else away for jita. She had no idea what jita was, so to get to this certain system we had to go through jita. I said there is 600 people in this system. She was shocked. In reply she said '600 people? On xbox live we only get 16 people playing'
Really makes you think what a special game this is.
Once again you missed the whole point. The problem is not:
Is EVE able to handle 300+ fleet battle with no lag?
Personnally I don't give a damn about this, I can adapt my gameplay.
The problem is :
Is it smart to let players put themselves in a situation that the game obviously cannot handle correctly?
No it's not. Why do you thing the biggest PvP arena in the_game_one_EVE_player_should_never_say is limited BY DESIGN to 40 players maximum each side?
Ambre.
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Zerg Defiler
Zerg Hive
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:07:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Rauth Kivaro if it was lag, it would have affected both sides equally
hmmmm... not!
Originally by: Aleksey NB we know that Bob's haven't any lags in any battle
hmmmm... yes! (everyone know this)
Originally by: Ivan Kirilenkov please use this threadto discuss it in
we no need to discuss, we just want that CCP did the work for which to it pay money, its all.
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Stein Voorhees
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:16:00 -
[150]
What you are looking at is a fundamental limitation of Blade servers. Despite all of the good things about them, they are limited to a fixed amount of CPU and a fixed amount of memory. This means they have a finite amount of processing power. Put in a massive fleet fight and you will overwhelm the blade.
Modern servers these days can have a hige number of Logical servers within them. To all intents and purposes, these are individual servers held within one (or more) physical boxes. Resources can then be dynamicaly switched between them. For example, all servers are running with 0.1 of a CPU and 500mb of RAM. When the system detects these resources are not enough on a particular server it can automaticaly direct spare capacity to the server that needs it. This allows systems to dynamicaly react to demand at an OS level allowing a very versatile and reactive overall system.
If CCP ever want to look at it then drop me a line .
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