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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Kunelk
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:30:00 -
[1]
I'm new to eve online and I just read that huge fleet battle with over 200 ships, lags a crapload lot and everything. How can those be even fun or entertaining? How could this be even remotly fine?
I can understand we are all on on single server and its complicated... But serioulsy? How can this be acceptable?
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:33:00 -
[2]
Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 00:33:16
Originally by: Kunelk I'm new to eve online and I just read that huge fleet battle with over 200 ships, lags a crapload lot and everything. How can those be even fun or entertaining? How could this be even remotly fine?
I can understand we are all on on single server and its complicated... But serioulsy? How can this be acceptable?
200 ships are survivable "but bearly", though i've seen with one with 400 ships that time the lag was seriously killer. "Battle for I-N". Not to mention all the fighters.
EVE handles things pretty well all things considered. In the end huge battles happen. Best you can do is work with it. ____________
Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20. |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:34:00 -
[3]
The solution is to not see a force of 100 enemies and think "HAY IF WE BRING 300 WE CAN BEAT THEM!"
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:37:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dark Shikari The solution is to not see a force of 100 enemies and think "HAY IF WE BRING 300 WE CAN BEAT THEM!"
True that, but I gather it was the other way round. That is, that TCF + friends had 300 in system doing POS warfare stuffs, and BoB cyno'd a 100 strong fleet in to fight them.
Which begs the question- if there are 300 people destroying your POS's, and you DON'T bring in the blob, what DO you do? Leave them to much on your towers? --------
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Chelone
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:38:00 -
[5]
CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Admus
Mobius Construct Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:50:00 -
[7]
If I'm not mistaken, a ton of optimizations and changes have been made in the new graphics engine, being released in Revelations 3. I will try to find the devblog for linky...
---------------------------------------------------------- "Villains always have antidotes. They're funny that way." |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:00:00 -
[8]
Everything I've seen about what people want in MMO's suggests walking in stations is CCP's best business decision ever.
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torswin
Caldari Capital Productions Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:01:00 -
[9]
Edited by: torswin on 27/06/2007 01:01:42
Originally by: Admus If I'm not mistaken, a ton of optimizations and changes have been made in the new graphics engine, being released in Revelations 3. I will try to find the devblog for linky...
But please do not mix up network lag and performance. I believe the real issue is network lag and the node is totally overloaded which makes the client halting while waiting for network data. EVE is single threaded (that desition was a bad one, CCP) so i guess thats why there's so much lag in the systems.
Yea, and of course the graphic engine being 7 years old or something and doesn't utilise graphic card at all except for anti-aliasing.
edit: Don't take me for a bessewisser though :) even though this reply might sound a bit arrogant, it wasnt my intention ---
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: torswin Edited by: torswin on 27/06/2007 01:01:42
Originally by: Admus If I'm not mistaken, a ton of optimizations and changes have been made in the new graphics engine, being released in Revelations 3. I will try to find the devblog for linky...
But please do not mix up network lag and performance. I believe the real issue is network lag and the node is totally overloaded which makes the client halting while waiting for network data. EVE is single threaded (that desition was a bad one, CCP) so i guess thats why there's so much lag in the systems.
Yea, and of course the graphic engine being 7 years old or something and doesn't utilise graphic card at all except for anti-aliasing.
edit: Don't take me for a bessewisser though :) even though this reply might sound a bit arrogant, it wasnt my intention
It's not network lag. It's server CPU "lock up" from the load. The client is just poorly written (single threading has nothing to do with it, it should never have a blocking call on the graphics rendering system).
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torswin
Caldari Capital Productions Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: James Duar
It's not network lag. It's server CPU "lock up" from the load. The client is just poorly written (single threading has nothing to do with it, it should never have a blocking call on the graphics rendering system).
To be honest I do not really know that exactly threading is except it allows several operations run simontainiously(sp?). But I did not understand what you meant with "server CPU "lock up" from the load".
You mean it kind of drives itself into a ditch and get a total stop in processing or is it just that it cannot process fast enough? ---
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Nadjer
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:30:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Nadjer on 27/06/2007 01:29:53 Forgive me if this has been said before as i'm fairly new but, wouldn't it alliviate the problem if when you got say more than 200-300 people in a system you got transferred to a dedicated server to handle the load. This would involve pause in play for anyone in the system and people comming in would get a slight delay maybe but i'd rather suffer a 30 second wait that have to play through a slideshow.
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:33:00 -
[13]
Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:33:10
Originally by: Nadjer Forgive me if this has been said before as i'm fairly new but, wouldn't it alliate the problem if when you got say more than 200-300 people in a system you got transferred to a dedicated server to handle the load. This would involve pause in play for anyone in the system and people comming in would get a slight delay maybe but i'd rather suffer a 30 second wait that have to play through a slideshow.
If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400 man situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects" that would arise. ____________
Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20. |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: torswin
Originally by: James Duar
It's not network lag. It's server CPU "lock up" from the load. The client is just poorly written (single threading has nothing to do with it, it should never have a blocking call on the graphics rendering system).
To be honest I do not really know that exactly threading is except it allows several operations run simontainiously(sp?). But I did not understand what you meant with "server CPU "lock up" from the load".
You mean it kind of drives itself into a ditch and get a total stop in processing or is it just that it cannot process fast enough?
Multi-threading is essentially a time-sharing arrangement on the CPU to allow the illusion of concurrent execution, made slightly more real by multi-core systems. But! It has all sorts of problems and can be a ***** to code for because you need to keep the threads synchronized.
However, there's no reason a single threaded game can't do multiple things at once. Modern graphics card GPUs are designed on the basis that they are a lot faster then the CPU and so when you need to render a frame you just dump triangles onto the card and go prepare for the next frame.
In addition to this though, in your graphics pipeline (a loop in the application essentially) you should never be calling into a function that may "wait" on something external like network data - if the data isn't there, it should leave it and render a new frame anyway.
The problem with the EVE client is that it appears there are numerous times when a costly (long) function executes, and the client just waits and waits and waits while it finishes rather then continuing to render frames and doing a little bit more of it each time.
re: server lock up - I picked the term from a dev, but as they describe it the server is basically overwhelmed by tasks so it's spending all its time trying to clear the backlog and eventually connections drop etc.
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Nadjer
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:45:00 -
[15]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:07
Originally by: Nadjer Forgive me if this has been said before as i'm fairly new but, wouldn't it alliate the problem if when you got say more than 200-300 people in a system you got transferred to a dedicated server to handle the load. This would involve pause in play for anyone in the system and people comming in would get a slight delay maybe but i'd rather suffer a 30 second wait that have to play through a slideshow.
If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server.
I'm sure CCP said they had done this for several large battle at one of their conventions. All it would really take is a flash of everyones position, health and munitions which is basically a stack of co-ordinates, EVERYTHING is a relatively small amount of data to transmit between servers. The recieving server would already have the system in question loaded and then you are switched to it. I can't see it being that much of a nightmare.
The problem with nodes is they have several systems to deal with at once. If there was a server for each system there would be no problem but you'd need several aircraft hangers and an army of tech support to run that lol.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:47 If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server. Even then it would go from a 2 minute lag time to maybe 45 seconds.
The server does hand offs all the time when people jump through gates, the issue is that when 300 people fight on one grid there's a good chance there's a lot more then 300 people being managed by the node on other grids.
There's no reason though that it couldn't stop the simulation for those 300 clients and then carefully move the connections to a new server. The RAMdrive has nothing to do with player actions, it's purely a CPU issue AFAIK.
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Richard Aiel
Caldari MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
Yeah but those things dont make them monmey AFTER those ftree trials run out. Cause if the lag situation isnt fixed, Those that start free trials arent gonna continue em...
Irony: Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true |
DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:52:00 -
[18]
Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:52:52
Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:47 If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server. Even then it would go from a 2 minute lag time to maybe 45 seconds.
The server does hand offs all the time when people jump through gates, the issue is that when 300 people fight on one grid there's a good chance there's a lot more then 300 people being managed by the node on other grids.
There's no reason though that it couldn't stop the simulation for those 300 clients and then carefully move the connections to a new server. The RAMdrive has nothing to do with player actions, it's purely a CPU issue AFAIK.
you've never seen 300+ people jump into a system at the same time have you? Also note that there's a huge difference between 300 people on a node and 300 people on the grid.
See 2 people on grid player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 1
3 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2
4 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 player 1 gets info on player 4 Player 2 gets info on player 1 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 4 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2 player 3 gets info on player 4 Player 4 gets info on player 1 Player 4 gets info on player 2 player 4 gets info on player 3
5 players on grid ....
it's all becomes exponential when it's all on the same grid. HUGE difference then when they're all at seperate locations. ____________
Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
Yeah but those things dont make them monmey AFTER those ftree trials run out. Cause if the lag situation isnt fixed, Those that start free trials arent gonna continue em...
Free trial people are not typically found partaking in 0.0 fleet battles. -
You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means |
Lady Natacha
Minmatar Water and Power
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Posted - 2007.06.27 01:59:00 -
[20]
Most all of CCP's lag issues and poor game performance can be solved via improving their software. They already have some of the best and fastest hardware in the world, the problem is that software applications (and developers) have not been able to scale in tandem with Moore's law.
Multithreaded application design processes have been around for a long time (20 years?) but adoption has been slow because shortcomings in software performance have been more easily overcome by using faster, larger and less expensive hardware.
When CCP rewrites large sections of its code you will notice an improvement. When they just patch things, not so much..
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:01:00 -
[21]
Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 02:00:39
Originally by: Lady Natacha
When CCP rewrites large sections of its code you will notice an improvement. When they just patch things, not so much..
Yup then instead of performance everyone will be whining about paying for an beta test version of EVE, all bugs included! ____________
Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20. |
Lady Natacha
Minmatar Water and Power
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:02:00 -
[22]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 02:00:39
Originally by: Lady Natacha
When CCP rewrites large sections of its code you will notice an improvement. When they just patch things, not so much..
Yup then instead of performance everyone will be whining about paying for an beta test version of EVE, all bugs included!
Which is really where we are at now, but in beta instead of alpha.
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Nimitz Alexander
Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:03:00 -
[23]
phh we lagged out a region ealier... with 50 ships shooting at one small pos
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:52:52
Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:47 If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server. Even then it would go from a 2 minute lag time to maybe 45 seconds.
The server does hand offs all the time when people jump through gates, the issue is that when 300 people fight on one grid there's a good chance there's a lot more then 300 people being managed by the node on other grids.
There's no reason though that it couldn't stop the simulation for those 300 clients and then carefully move the connections to a new server. The RAMdrive has nothing to do with player actions, it's purely a CPU issue AFAIK.
you've never seen 300+ people jump into a system at the same time have you? Also note that there's a huge difference between 300 people on a node and 300 people on the grid.
See 2 people on grid player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 1
3 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2
4 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 player 1 gets info on player 4 Player 2 gets info on player 1 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 4 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2 player 3 gets info on player 4 Player 4 gets info on player 1 Player 4 gets info on player 2 player 4 gets info on player 3
5 players on grid ....
it's all becomes exponential when it's all on the same grid. HUGE difference then when they're all at seperate locations.
Quadratic, not exponential.
But still bad.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Zeonos
Amarr Fairtrade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:08:00 -
[25]
note, that no other ship that i know of can support 300+ people in one location without lag..
Image gallery with some of the new ship models.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 02:08:00 -
[26]
Note I said "carefully". There's something of a difference between the server bum rushing to get 300 people onto grid simultaneously while also running a simulation for X number of other ships.
In the case we're talking about it's some hypothetical dedicated server and no one's playing on it till it's got all the connections lined up.
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max bygraves
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Posted - 2007.06.27 04:43:00 -
[27]
Quote: How can this be acceptable?
Because its only a game, Everything is this world is not perfect u/f, even though mummy tells you so. Also nearly every other mmo lags with a 200 man battle also.
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Richard Aiel
Caldari MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.06.27 04:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
Yeah but those things dont make them monmey AFTER those ftree trials run out. Cause if the lag situation isnt fixed, Those that start free trials arent gonna continue em...
Free trial people are not typically found partaking in 0.0 fleet battles.
So its an issue of milking ppl of their money till they find out they cant do the fleet battles cause the servers are made of paper mache?
Irony: Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.27 05:00:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Richard Aiel
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
Yeah but those things dont make them monmey AFTER those ftree trials run out. Cause if the lag situation isnt fixed, Those that start free trials arent gonna continue em...
Free trial people are not typically found partaking in 0.0 fleet battles.
So its an issue of milking ppl of their money till they find out they cant do the fleet battles cause the servers are made of paper mache?
You are learning, young padawan!
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.06.27 05:58:00 -
[30]
Originally by: DubanFP
it's all becomes exponential when it's all on the same grid. HUGE difference then when they're all at seperate locations. The computer would have to transfer all this information and bring EVERYONE up to date at the same time.
Yes, but this is true for every mmorpg. How come a WoW server can handle 100 people shooting at eachother (remember Tarren Mill?) without severe lag? Thats just one server, not a supercluster like Eve has.
Im not really understanding why the amount of data sent should be any different. Locations, damage, server doing calculations for hits and misses etc. The Eve cluster is hell of a lot stronger than one of those WoW servers ever was.
I think its basically just old code laying around. The new network layer might make things a lot better.
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Kwint Sommer
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Posted - 2007.06.27 06:48:00 -
[31]
A fight of more than 200 players isn't fun regardless of the lag. There's absolutely no strategy or skill on the part of the individual pilot. It's just someone barking a list of targets at you until you pop.
I believe the battle that took down the BoB titan had around 200 and it had reasonable lag.
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Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 06:59:00 -
[32]
Reposted from the locked thread.
Fleet warped and engaged a smaller force. We were aware of the jump bridging and and chose to engage anyways. At first my modules responded fine and I was engaging a hostile target, but then while my attack messages continued my modules stopped responding. Gang chat was fine and things appeared normal, but something was very wrong. I changed my crystals to short range but it just gave the icons that show an in progress ammo change. Meanwhile ships were flying around and doing things but my ship would not respond to movement commands and the weapons remained in ammo change mode. On TS virtually everybody was reporting similar problems and nobody was able to target or engage successfully. It was as if our whole fleet were "turned off" for lack of a better term. Not to go all nerd on everybody but it reminded me of the Bstar galactica pilot episode where the whole fleet was just disabled and the cylons just went all happy on them.
It sat like that completely unresponsive until I started taking damage messages (and damage was appearing at a normal rate as if I were normally engaged) and eventually popped. Once I popped my pod was 100% responsive in sharp contrast with my poor lost geddon but unfortunately since my pod wasn't armed the battle for me was over
So yeah. Something was very very wrong in that fight and this is the 3rd time since rev 2 that something similar happened to me and the other two times it wasn't even a battle, just cruising around a nearly empty system so I don't know.
From what I can tell every ship that was in system before the jump bridge occured pretty much broke on the spot whereas the ships that jumped in while lagged, were responsive and they mopped up the larger force with little to no resistance.
Anybody claiming that this was somehow a cheat or an exploit is just plain stupid but anybody claiming that this was normal lag is unfortunately wrong. Something has really been broken in rev 2 and it's causing some fairly serious problems.
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jeffb
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:04:00 -
[33]
Perhaps the reason BoB didn't have the same issue as everyone else in system did is because... they weren't in system when the server went to ****. They jumpbridged in after, whether the jumpbridge was the actual cause of the issues or not, and thanks to the session change had 100% synced and fresh clients.
There are major issues with desyncing post Rev2, would be interesting to hear from a dev what if anything they changed.
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Ivan Kirilenkov
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:07:00 -
[34]
Friendly reminder to keep it on topic, that means no accusations of cheating etc - if you suspect foul play, petition it or bring it to the IA-department. Also, no trolling and "can I have your stuff" etc.
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Original Species
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:08:00 -
[35]
This is why I dont do fleet ops..I stick to small fast moving gangs and avoid any situation that may cause me to lose my ship via game mechanics...
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Jaikar Isillia
The Vinlanders Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:14:00 -
[36]
repost from other thread I've read every comment and here's what I've come away with.
TCF were having a mighty fun time killing a pos in a 270 man fleet.
Bob came in.
The 270 TCF fleet lagged and desynched not being able to do anything.
BoB did laggggg but not to the point of being unable to play.
Bob proceeded to then destroy the TCF fleet while they could relatively do nothing, some of them logged off to hopefully avoid getting killed while they could do nothing.
BoB lost 4 ships.
People can draw there own conclusions from that.
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Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:17:00 -
[37]
*snip* - removed reference to deleted post. -Ivan K
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Lady Trade
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:39:00 -
[38]
Quote: But serioulsy? How can this be acceptable?
It isn't acceptable. Lag is usually so terrible during any battles with more then say 100 ppl in local that most of the fun is lost very quickly and gets replaced by extrem frustration. Disconnects, 30 seconds to activate a module and session changes that take 2-5 minutes are absolutly normal for EVE. Thats been the case since i've been playing and obviously CCP don't really care or they would have fixed it instead of implementing wonderful things like EVE Voice and Heat.
So in a nutshell - yes, unplayable lag during battles is totally normal and (at least for me) the major funkiller in EVE. |
Myz Toyou
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:41:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Dark Shikari The solution is to not see a force of 100 enemies and think "HAY IF WE BRING 300 WE CAN BEAT THEM!"
Lies
CYVOK > All you station jockies better get out their and start killing these idiots
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Irob Urore
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:43:00 -
[40]
death to blobs! .. either utilize the blob in shifts to minimize lag or don't go in expecting 400 people to no lag out a system.
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Ceros X
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 07:52:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Irob Urore death to blobs! .. either utilize the blob in shifts to minimize lag or don't go in expecting 400 people to no lag out a system.
This has nothing to do with normal latency and/or blobs. Please re-read the thread.
People are getting desynchronized at seemingly random times flying around by ourselves, orbiting POSes by our lonesome, etc.
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Marcus Kartum
Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:03:00 -
[42]
I can see only one solution to that. Stop fighting! Yes, i know how it sounds, but think about it. CCP is encouraging everyone to build bigger ships and fight in epic battles, however they are totally unable to provide us with enough hardware resources to do such... or they just don't care, which is more likely for me after the answer of one of GM's in my petition. And that is just hypocrisy!
So c'mon, no more battles bigger than 50 vs 50, no more POS warfare and lets see what they are going to do. |
WiZZyWiGG
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:12:00 -
[43]
The de-sync problem (or whatever it really is) is becoming a common issue since Rev2 launched. I experienced it myself the other day after jumping through a gate into an enemy gang and have my screen stay static but being able to use mods/change speed/move around without my screen moving. I had to relog in the middle of the fight, luckily I didn't get killed but I would of been annoyed if it had killed me.
In the big fight last night I didnt get it, took ages to load the system after I bridged and then I missed the whole fight due to never loading the grid due to lag. Sounded fun by TS though
Whatever this de-sync issue is it needs looking into, it easy enough to deal with lag and adapt to it but something broken like this needs a fix.
___________
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Heidi Engineswat
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:17:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Marcus Kartum I can see only one solution to that. Stop fighting! Yes, i know how it sounds, but think about it. CCP is encouraging everyone to build bigger ships and fight in epic battles, however they are totally unable to provide us with enough hardware resources to do such... or they just don't care, which is more likely for me after the answer of one of GM's in my petition. And that is just hypocrisy!
So c'mon, no more battles bigger than 50 vs 50, no more POS warfare and lets see what they are going to do.
I have reprocessed my titan, and bought a navitas with t2 miners. Why fight big battles when you can macro your way to glory! I never saw an MM have lag troubles.
I know everyone and his alt has already said this:
but get your Sh*t together CCP. The 'endgame' in eve, aka omfgbigfleetbbq, is broken. therefore your product is starting to stink of inferior.
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joshua cane
Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:27:00 -
[45]
Originally by: WiZZyWiGG The de-sync problem (or whatever it really is) is becoming a common issue since Rev2 launched. I experienced it myself the other day after jumping through a gate into an enemy gang and have my screen stay static but being able to use mods/change speed/move around without my screen moving. I had to relog in the middle of the fight, luckily I didn't get killed but I would of been annoyed if it had killed me.
In the big fight last night I didnt get it, took ages to load the system after I bridged and then I missed the whole fight due to never loading the grid due to lag. Sounded fun by TS though
Whatever this de-sync issue is it needs looking into, it easy enough to deal with lag and adapt to it but something broken like this needs a fix.
same for all tcf pilot in bs in 6t3 and many times in small skirmish since 4 days need to delog and relog to fix this
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Ambre Blanche
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:27:00 -
[46]
Reposting here as my post was locked (how weird :) ).
The facts:
Yesterday at about 20h00 EVE Time, a coalition force jumped into the 6T3I-L system to do some POS cleaning in Alliance space. I was part of the support force camping a gate while the big guys were doing the real job.
About 20 minutes later, a cyno appeared in the middle of nowhere. Support were ordered to warp on it and engage the incoming BoB & pets force. Dreads were (luckily) ordered out. Lag at that time was bearable as my ship warped to the action in less than 15 seconds. When I reached the cyno, I counted about 30 TCF and 20 BoB apparently in fight. I begin confidently to target the enemy and activate my launchers. Nothing happened. After a few seconds, I realized nothing was really happening at all in the game. Both the overview and the main screen were in a loop, displaying the same frozen scenery of the same 50 guys dancing the same ballet. After 1 minute, I began to smell disaster and ordered my ship to warp out. Again, nothing happened. My fellows gang mates were experimenting the same thing and begining to really worry for their ship, while the coolest of us were preaching for some patience. This very weird situation lasted more than 12 minutes. After that, seeing that no one in our entire gang of about 90 people was able to do a single thing, the FC ordered us finally to relog. It took me maybe 2 minutes to be able to log back. During that time, people started to realize as they successfully logged back in that they were for the most part, dead. I was rather happy to see that my ship had escaped the massacre, the warp-out order I gave very early having obviously be taken into account.
The frustration:
For the patient reader, nothing new in this report. Lag happens in EVE are you about to say. The thing that puzzles me though is this: how can one side be able to fight and slaughter 80% of the other side while about all members of this other side are obviously out of synchro? Is EVE T2 available somewhere and we forgot to pick it up? I am usually rather happy to be the target of a competent BoB or Outbreak fighter in a fair fight. But this "battle" was really a fraud :(
The idea:
Since it's early begining, the Everquest client has a very precise lag-o-meter. From green to red, one can instantly have a very good reading of the quality of his client/server connexion, including packets losses and out of synchro events. It was considered vital for the Everquest community 8 years ago and since then, I can't understand why we don't have the same tool in every MMO. Dear CCP developpers, please give us this kind of reliable tool and create a kind of "Combat Advisor" which will prevent all ships in a system to activate any weapon until at least 90% of the people in local are able to fight.
Thanks, Ambre.
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necronarcosis
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:41:00 -
[47]
when are you going to learn, the game can not support a fleet fight with those number's we have seen it many times before, we will see it many times again.
Dont your Fleet commanders ever learn, Small groups multiple targets make the enemy split there forces. Help the servers cope Rather than being the problem. Alternatively keep blobing keep the 300 stong gangs/ fleets and accept what happens and shut the hell up about lag this and lag that when YOU are the problem.
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Epong
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:50:00 -
[48]
Dear CCP,
>> Keep your Nvidia, t-shirts and mug for buy hardware plz.
about battle in 6t.... Have train a lot of skills since i play on Eve, have paid a lot of Ē too. Now i take part in fleet battle, the only thing that have see is a BLACK SCREEN [10-15 min]. Funny, very funny.
I undesrstand that 200 players in empire = lag (market, missions, contracts...a lot of data) but i can't in 0.0 when the market is "empty" and when nobody run mission just standind. (players...Try Jita for understand... always 500 characters "Hey mum i'm in jita" ;)
Think about it.
If you can't give a good game play to yours Ē's cow, say it. So may be it's time for me to quit eve...because Rev-II need for speed urgently
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Icarius
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:53:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ambre Blanche
the FC ordered us finally to relog.
thank you ... you said it, your fc finally ordered to relog, while bob members are ready, ordered to stay here and die here ... and they stay.
then you relog one by one ... tir aux pigeons
Yes there is lag , for everyone, but concerning your fc orders, ccp can't do anything if they are crap.
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WiZZyWiGG
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:53:00 -
[50]
Edited by: WiZZyWiGG on 27/06/2007 08:52:28
Originally by: necronarcosis when are you going to learn, the game can not support a fleet fight with those number's we have seen it many times before, we will see it many times again.
Dont your Fleet commanders ever learn, Small groups multiple targets make the enemy split there forces. Help the servers cope Rather than being the problem. Alternatively keep blobing keep the 300 stong gangs/ fleets and accept what happens and shut the hell up about lag this and lag that when YOU are the problem.
That's just not true though, I have been in many fleet fights that have had hundreds in local and only had minimal lag and been able to fight fine. It can be done, just not consistently. ___________
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Lady Trade
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:57:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Lady Trade on 27/06/2007 08:56:16
Quote: Alternatively keep blobing keep the 300 stong gangs/ fleets and accept what happens and shut the hell up about lag this and lag that when YOU are the problem.
lol so now WE are the problem huh? Not CCP for not being capable to keep their promises to fix the damn lag for the last two years? No of course not... it's the stupid players that don't just wanna mine veld but actually would like to fight... yeah man... i really see your point. </irony> |
Vile rat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:58:00 -
[52]
Originally by: WiZZyWiGG Edited by: WiZZyWiGG on 27/06/2007 08:52:28
Originally by: necronarcosis when are you going to learn, the game can not support a fleet fight with those number's we have seen it many times before, we will see it many times again.
Dont your Fleet commanders ever learn, Small groups multiple targets make the enemy split there forces. Help the servers cope Rather than being the problem. Alternatively keep blobing keep the 300 stong gangs/ fleets and accept what happens and shut the hell up about lag this and lag that when YOU are the problem.
That's just not true though, I have been in many fleet fights that have had hundreds in local and only had minimal lag and been able to fight fine. It can be done, just not consistently.
Yeah everybody involved in this fight has at this point probably been involved in dozens of huge laggy fleet battles. We all know how to handle lag and deal with it.
This however was not normal. The only way to correct this problem was to relog as something broke bad in system causing wide scale desync. I'm not whining about losing a ship or a battle. Stuff happens sometimes and ships are replacable for a reason.
Something new and disturbing has broken and it's happening quite often. This is not normal lag, this is a new bug.
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necronarcosis
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:06:00 -
[53]
Originally by: WiZZyWiGG Edited by: WiZZyWiGG on 27/06/2007 08:52:28
Originally by: necronarcosis when are you going to learn, the game can not support a fleet fight with those number's we have seen it many times before, we will see it many times again.
Dont your Fleet commanders ever learn, Small groups multiple targets make the enemy split there forces. Help the servers cope Rather than being the problem. Alternatively keep blobing keep the 300 stong gangs/ fleets and accept what happens and shut the hell up about lag this and lag that when YOU are the problem.
That's just not true though, I have been in many fleet fights that have had hundreds in local and only had minimal lag and been able to fight fine. It can be done, just not consistently.
not 400 on a single grid
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Ambre Blanche
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:08:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Icarius
Originally by: Ambre Blanche
the FC ordered us finally to relog.
thank you ... you said it, your fc finally ordered to relog, while bob members are ready, ordered to stay here and die here ... and they stay.
then you relog one by one ... tir aux pigeons
Yes there is lag , for everyone, but concerning your fc orders, ccp can't do anything if they are crap.
You really should improve your reading skills. Do you happen to know it's even become useful to you some day in real life? Our FC ordered to log out after we became VERY anxious about our ships, being unable to do a single thing for something like TWELVE minutes after the initial engagement.
I don't care about lag. I care about lag that's choose a side. I think it's very strange. Don't you?
Ambre.
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Epong
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:08:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Icarius
Originally by: Ambre Blanche
the FC ordered us finally to relog.
thank you ... you said it, your fc finally ordered to relog, while bob members are ready, ordered to stay here and die here ... and they stay.
then you relog one by one ... tir aux pigeons
Yes there is lag , for everyone, but concerning your fc orders, ccp can't do anything if they are crap.
one by one...but we have try to joint the FEST... i'm not speaking about BOB/TCF/GOON/RA and many more power...i talking about a "space combat game". With a cool game play. A playable lag
for everyone i just remember something....about GM neutrality (and so dev neutrality)...no one can help me? i cant remeber all of story. Plz dont say that you have lag...you have in...and warp quickly. Have you really lag?
With all of that..."Magic Eve" is down for me...they must work on it or i hope a lot of players quit this "joke".
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Darcuese
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:10:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Darcuese on 27/06/2007 09:11:25 Edited by: Darcuese on 27/06/2007 09:09:37
Originally by: Vile rat
Something new and disturbing has broken and it's happening quite often. This is not normal lag, this is a new bug.
New bug.
No reloging will help to fix this. You just have to stick whit random chance you have been given for that/any fight.
Myself been involved in more then enough huge fights and expirianced situation from waking up in station before loading screen, till "normal" shooting at others while my fleet m8s didnt see targets
EDIT: Reloging will even screw things up for others in that system (my opinion, but i might be wrong here), regarding lag, then help those that try it me, myself and I ------> |
Gozmoth
Amarr Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:14:00 -
[57]
Lag is a problem, but not the massive one. Desync is.
Because desync will make the server logs perfectly clean : they will show nothing strange or faulty. Desync means that CCP cannot check for client bugs or faulty network management easily.
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R3dSh1ft
Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:14:00 -
[58]
Nobody in this thread is 'right' or 'wrong' about having won/lost the fight due to thier actions at the time or such. There is no real way to prove it, what both sides do agree on though was the lag was a real pain...
Lag won, and that is the unacceptable truth. The game can't be the epic empire domination stategy that it needs to be without servers that can support such large battles.
So stop blaming each other and start looking at the real culprits? _________________________________________________________
DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine |
Decimo
Amarr DEATH'S LEGION
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:14:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yes, but this is true for every mmorpg. How come a WoW server can handle 100 people shooting at eachother (remember Tarren Mill?) without severe lag? Thats just one server, not a supercluster like Eve has.
Im not really understanding why the amount of data sent should be any different. Locations, damage, server doing calculations for hits and misses etc. The Eve cluster is hell of a lot stronger than one of those WoW servers ever was.
I think its basically just old code laying around. The new network layer might make things a lot better.
Heck, not just Tarren Mill, I experienced a full fledged assault on IF once, the only lag I had was a drop in framerate from my own computer.
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Darcuese
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:14:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Darcuese on 27/06/2007 09:14:45
Originally by: Ambre Blanche
Originally by: Icarius
Originally by: Ambre Blanche
the FC ordered us finally to relog.
thank you ... you said it, your fc finally ordered to relog, while bob members are ready, ordered to stay here and die here ... and they stay.
then you relog one by one ... tir aux pigeons
Yes there is lag , for everyone, but concerning your fc orders, ccp can't do anything if they are crap.
You really should improve your reading skills. Do you happen to know it's even become useful to you some day in real life? Our FC ordered to log out after we became VERY anxious about our ships, being unable to do a single thing for something like TWELVE minutes after the initial engagement.
I don't care about lag. I care about lag that's choose a side. I think it's very strange. Don't you?
Ambre.
Still, it doesnt change the line in quote you took. He did order you to relog. Wrong decision. End of story. Put contract of your stuff to this char please. Lost more ships then i planned lately me, myself and I ------> |
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N'olive
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:20:00 -
[61]
Edited by: N''olive on 27/06/2007 09:21:40 Something is definately wrong when a fleet ENTERS a system.
Last night in the 6T battle between coalition and the alliance, there was 270 ships doing things in the system, and there was no lag, very playable, not problem at all. When about 140 other ships entered the local, the game just fkin' DIED. Why is that adding 50% players changed the 0.1 sec lag into a 20 MINUTES FREEZE ?
The point is not about TCF or UNL or BOB or whetever, this doesn't matter, the real deal is that fleet battles are ruining the gaming experience.
Any little corporation can test it by themselves, gather 40 ships and move in a lonely system in the deep space with noone else around, and by simply traveling you'll get problems after each jump.
This is definately not acceptable.
CCP have to fix this or make it impossible to regroup more than 50 ships at the same place.
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InAkTiV
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:20:00 -
[62]
I don't know much about server and that jazz, but would it be hard for ccp, to make like Ctrl + Alt + T/E, but taking more effect off ? like take killmails off for some time, dmg info, just all kinda things you can take off in a big fleet battle.
I am sure many people would not mind a not so beautifull eve when they are in a 200 fleet battle,and get their killmails like one hour later, or something like that.
Again i have no idea how serverside works, but i would think it would take some load off in a big fight ??
So make like a Big fleet setting option ??
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:21:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
i don't think they can 'fix' the lag.
imo they've hit a technological ceiling at present.
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necronarcosis
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:25:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lady Trade Edited by: Lady Trade on 27/06/2007 08:56:16
Quote: Alternatively keep blobing keep the 300 stong gangs/ fleets and accept what happens and shut the hell up about lag this and lag that when YOU are the problem.
lol so now WE are the problem huh? Not CCP for not being capable to keep their promises to fix the damn lag for the last two years? No of course not... it's the stupid players that don't just wanna mine veld but actually would like to fight... yeah man... i really see your point. </irony>
ofc u dont faceless alt, post with your main
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Glengrant
Minmatar TOHA Heavy Industries FROST Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:30:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Kunelk
I can understand we are all on on single server and its complicated... But serioulsy? How can this be acceptable?
Correction: Eve is *not* on a single server. It's on a single world *cluster* using many servers.
I haven't kept up-to-date with the eve cluster design (there was a nice article years ago) - the DB server might be a single machine - which is probably the biggest bottleneck.
And it's acceptable if a) things are done to improve that and b) it's not a constant and universal problem.
Lot's of people can enjoy Eve outside Jita and big fleet blob actions.
Don't assume that those who whine about the killer lag represent 100% of everything.
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B orange
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:30:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:52:52
Originally by: James Duar
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:47 If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server. Even then it would go from a 2 minute lag time to maybe 45 seconds.
The server does hand offs all the time when people jump through gates, the issue is that when 300 people fight on one grid there's a good chance there's a lot more then 300 people being managed by the node on other grids.
There's no reason though that it couldn't stop the simulation for those 300 clients and then carefully move the connections to a new server. The RAMdrive has nothing to do with player actions, it's purely a CPU issue AFAIK.
you've never seen 300+ people jump into a system at the same time have you? Also note that there's a huge difference between 300 people on a node and 300 people on the grid.
See 2 people on grid player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 1
3 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 2 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2
4 people on grid Player 1 gets info on player 2 Player 1 gets info on player 3 player 1 gets info on player 4 Player 2 gets info on player 1 Player 2 gets info on player 3 Player 2 gets info on player 4 Player 3 gets info on player 1 Player 3 gets info on player 2 player 3 gets info on player 4 Player 4 gets info on player 1 Player 4 gets info on player 2 player 4 gets info on player 3
5 players on grid ....
it's all becomes exponential when it's all on the same grid. HUGE difference then when they're all at seperate locations.
Quadratic, not exponential.
But still bad.
It's factorial, (n-1)!, "n" beeing number of players. |
necronarcosis
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:36:00 -
[67]
Originally by: N'olive Edited by: N''olive on 27/06/2007 09:23:16 Something is definately wrong when a fleet ENTERS a system.
Last night in the 6T battle between coalition and the alliance, there was 270 ships doing things in the system, and there was no lag, very playable, not problem at all. When about 140 other ships entered the local, the game just fkin' DIED. Why is that adding 50% players changed the 0.1 sec lag into a 20 MINUTES FREEZE ?
The point is not about TCF or UNL or BOB or whoever, this doesn't matter, the real deal is that fleet battles are ruining the gaming experience, and since rev II even more.
Any little corporation can test it by themselves, gather 40 ships and move in a lonely system in the deep space with noone else around, and by simply traveling you'll get problems after each jump.
This is definately not acceptable.
CCP have to fix this or make it impossible to regroup more than 50 ships at the same place.
270 ships doing nothing does not stress the server, however 270 ships loading / shooting etc does. There is no fix for the server load, theres only so much it can process. short of completly rewriting the fundamental code of eve and changing the server architecture. and thats not going to happen.
the only way that i can see fleet combat progressing is scaling down of pos warfare in a huge way.
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Trac3rt
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:38:00 -
[68]
This de-sync problem is something new, it appears to be mainly a problem with the client (since not everyone on grid gets affected), although I expect server conditions do play their part, and can only be fixed with a relog.
I was in 6T3, I warped to the cyno at 100KM in my covops and immediately locked up. My overview loaded a dozen BS before freezing, nothing changed on my screen for 20-30 minutes (could still see the cyno and first bubble) before I logged out. I did try warping out to a belt, but nothing appeared to have happened, when I logged back in later I was at the belt so obviously my command made it to the server but my client never acknowledged any more data.
I have heard of similar things happening before RevII, but since the 'upgrade' things have been 10x worse. I cannot help but be reminded of the Dragon release where the node would crash if more than 20 people attempted to fight on-grid.
I don't blame BoB for this, they rolled the dice and it came out in their favour. I do blame CCP for creating a game where 'rolling the dice' is the primary method of determining the outcome of larger battles. In the end, these fights are not determined by Skill, Tactics, SP, fittings or ships, but by which side lags out the least which is a pretty poor way to play a game I think.
___
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:39:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 27/06/2007 09:38:40
Originally by: Ambre Blanche
Originally by: Icarius
Originally by: Ambre Blanche
the FC ordered us finally to relog.
thank you ... you said it, your fc finally ordered to relog, while bob members are ready, ordered to stay here and die here ... and they stay.
then you relog one by one ... tir aux pigeons
Yes there is lag , for everyone, but concerning your fc orders, ccp can't do anything if they are crap.
You really should improve your reading skills. Do you happen to know it's even become useful to you some day in real life? Our FC ordered to log out after we became VERY anxious about our ships, being unable to do a single thing for something like TWELVE minutes after the initial engagement.
I don't care about lag. I care about lag that's choose a side. I think it's very strange. Don't you?
Ambre.
When you log off, then whatever resorces is allocated to you goes to those that stay in the field I would imagine. Lag chooses no sides. I guess you could say that their is a lot of brittish people in Bob, therefor we are more used to waiting in queues.....
And if half the queue in front decides to wander away, do you think their place will be kept? --
Billion Isk Mission |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:42:00 -
[70]
Originally by: necronarcosis when are you going to learn, the game can not support a fleet fight with those number's we have seen it many times before, we will see it many times again.
There is a new lag/desync occurring since Rev2. I've had it in a 5 vs. 1 fight, a 1 vs. 1 fight and a 15 vs. 15 fight. Numbers alone don't cause it, but bigger number might raise the odds of it occuring. Your controls seem to get unresponsive, but in reality it can take up to a minute for your instruction to execute. But even if your instruction are being executed, your own client will not be properly updated. Strangely enough your client might perfectly update shots taken at you though, and you can see your shields or armor go down fairly smoothly. Relogging helps.
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jeffb
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:44:00 -
[71]
Originally by: necronarcosis 270 ships doing nothing does not stress the server, however 270 ships loading / shooting etc does. There is no fix for the server load, theres only so much it can process. short of completly rewriting the fundamental code of eve and changing the server architecture. and thats not going to happen.
the only way that i can see fleet combat progressing is scaling down of pos warfare in a huge way.
Why do people here not understand the difference between lag and client desyncs? Since Rev2 there seems to be a major desync problem not related to warping or bumping but just being in space. It doesn't matter how long you wait the client isn't going to recover if you are desynced, as far as the server knows your just sitting in space getting blown up like a dumbass, you need to relog to force your client to get correct data from the server. The BoB pilots that jumpbridged into 6T3 had 100% fresh clients thanks to the session change from said jumpbridge. Is that so hard to understand?
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Ambre Blanche
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:47:00 -
[72]
The message behind all those threads generated by this 15 minutes deadlock we got yesterday in 6T3I-L is very simple: "CCP stop lying to us". Either you can make fleet battle (300+ ships) enjoyable in EVE or either you can't. It's not a problem if you can't, we will play differently. But stop bull****ing us and the whole world with your "constant improvements", "next engine", and "Need for Speed Initiative". EVE is 3 years old and we are still losing tons of ships to client/server issues.
Btw, locking all threads that are about one of the most important part of the game will not improve the problem at all.
Ambre.
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necronarcosis
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:49:00 -
[73]
Originally by: jeffb
Originally by: necronarcosis 270 ships doing nothing does not stress the server, however 270 ships loading / shooting etc does. There is no fix for the server load, theres only so much it can process. short of completly rewriting the fundamental code of eve and changing the server architecture. and thats not going to happen.
the only way that i can see fleet combat progressing is scaling down of pos warfare in a huge way.
Why do people here not understand the difference between lag and client desyncs? Since Rev2 there seems to be a major desync problem not related to warping or bumping but just being in space. It doesn't matter how long you wait the client isn't going to recover if you are desynced, as far as the server knows your just sitting in space getting blown up like a dumbass, you need to relog to force your client to get correct data from the server. The BoB pilots that jumpbridged into 6T3 had 100% fresh clients thanks to the session change from said jumpbridge. Is that so hard to understand?
im reading the ops post and other on lag, im not commenting on desync. but i belive it to be a part of the same problem tbh.
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The Snowman
Gallente Black Mithril Holdings
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:49:00 -
[74]
I doubt this problem would ever be resolved. No matter what optimisations they make, no matter how much hardware they throw at it.
Truth is the calculations being made are astronomical (no pun intended) and the more eve advances and the more players start playing it will only get worse! - CCP can only hope to keep up with the current level growth.
Just last night I was in a lvl4 mission, with a friend, I was tanking about 40 odd ships, we had 8 drones out and I was tractor beaming and salvaging at the same time... It was hideous. It just appears that Eve cant handle doing this many things at once! - regardless of the graphics engine.
Is it acceptable?... well you have to measure that against your own satisfaction of playing Eve because it sure isnt going to change very much any time soon.
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necronarcosis
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:52:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Merdaneth
Originally by: necronarcosis when are you going to learn, the game can not support a fleet fight with those number's we have seen it many times before, we will see it many times again.
There is a new lag/desync occurring since Rev2. I've had it in a 5 vs. 1 fight, a 1 vs. 1 fight and a 15 vs. 15 fight. Numbers alone don't cause it, but bigger number might raise the odds of it occuring. Your controls seem to get unresponsive, but in reality it can take up to a minute for your instruction to execute. But even if your instruction are being executed, your own client will not be properly updated. Strangely enough your client might perfectly update shots taken at you though, and you can see your shields or armor go down fairly smoothly. Relogging helps.
how many people were in system? just your gangs or were u in a busy area there is a huge difference
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Lady Trade
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:53:00 -
[76]
yeah and if you're not able to give us lag free gameplay with more then 100 ppl in local then pls implement a system so that not more then 100 ppl can enter a system. and limit gang size accordingly etc.
whats the sence of giving us 250 man gangs if you disconnect and de-sync as soon as there are 100 ppl in local? then rather forbid large ops al together and let us have small battles without lag (but that won't work as long as it's possible to simply bring in more and more friends to join the fray). |
Gozmoth
Amarr Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:53:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Gozmoth on 27/06/2007 09:52:10 A important thing : desyncing comes from buggy/faulty software, unlike lag. Desyncing can be prevented.
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WiZZyWiGG
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:53:00 -
[78]
New thread needed to actually discuss the de-sync issue, this seems to be hung up on discussing lag more than anything?
Or better yet send in a load of bug reports.
___________
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getmoving
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:55:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Lady Trade yeah and if you're not able to give us lag free gameplay with more then 100 ppl in local then pls implement a system so that not more then 100 ppl can enter a system. and limit gang size accordingly etc.
whats the sence of giving us 250 man gangs if you disconnect and de-sync as soon as there are 100 ppl in local? then rather forbid large ops al together and let us have small battles without lag (but that won't work as long as it's possible to simply bring in more and more friends to join the fray).
i can see the traffic jams outside jita already
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Doc Punkiller
Caldari Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:01:00 -
[80]
I suggest that ccp's investors fire the current dev team and hire people that actually know how to design, code and test.
In other time and place, seppuku would have been an option for such a miserable technical failure.
The current situation is inacceptable.
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Ivan Kirilenkov
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:05:00 -
[81]
Please keep accusations about lag choosing side on other accusations out of this thread. The forum is not the place to handle things like that, a petition to either the GM-team or the IA-department is.
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necronarcosis
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:11:00 -
[82]
Edited by: necronarcosis on 27/06/2007 10:10:15
Originally by: Doc Punkiller I suggest that ccp's investors fire the current dev team and hire people that actually know how to design, code and test.
In other time and place, seppuku would have been an option for such a miserable technical failure.
The current situation is inacceptable.
are you joking? the dev team in eve is one of the most capable and respected teams in the whole mmo world. We all here understand that lag and other problems like desync are ruining people play, but theres simply put no quick fix to it. If they did do what you say eve would likely close because not many programmers/coders would know where to start if they were thrown in at the deep end with eve's setup.
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Susan Acid
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:19:00 -
[83]
To the OP,
Yes,Eve lags.A lot.It cannot support these large scale battles and afaik it has always been that way.
I started playing this game when I read an article on Eve in PC Gamer magazine about 18 months ago.Do you know what the article was called?'The battle that broke the galaxy'.Not much has changed since then.
I shall end with the similiar reply given to people who moan about Jita:
Get out of 0.0 and stop complaining about lag.Stop trying to have fleet fights.It doesn't work.It won't ever work and you are dillusional if you think CCP or anybody else can make 300/400 man battles work.
Anybody who goes into a 400 man lagfest expecting to have any sort of 'fun' needs their heads tested.
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Bonita Ramirez
Xenobytes Stain Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:25:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Ivan Kirilenkov The forum is not the place to handle things like that, a petition to either the GM-team or the IA-department is.
To get one more answer "According our server logs there are no problem"?
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:31:00 -
[85]
Like I said *snip* - don't discuss moderation on the forums. -Ivan K until you can solve your lag issues, make an official statement indicating "THIS GAME CANNOT BE PLAYED WHILE LARGE FLEETS ENGAGE IN COMBAT, PARTICIPATE IN SUCH AT YOUR OWN RISK"
- Recruitment open again-
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Lakedaimon
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:32:00 -
[86]
I read a lot of posts from TCF/Goons complaining about massive lags and desynchs while simultaneously claiming that BoB did not suffer from lag. Here's how the battle played out for me:
When the order came to jump via the bridge, I selected the appropriate command from the right-click menu and nothing happened. I tried it a couple more times, then decided to wait. A few ships actually jumped, then suddenly a lot of ships managed to go through. I was still sitting next to the titan with nothing happening.
After a couple of minutes my ship began that cloaking animation which indicates a jump. Seconds later a traffic control countdown window appeared. After 2 minutes and 30 seconds it disappeared, yet my ship still hadn't jumped. I went to get a drink.
When I came back a few minutes later my ship had actually jumped but had not yet loaded the 6T system. It took about five more minutes for that to happen. I then tried for another four minutes to warp to the battle area. When that finally happened it took another ten minutes for the battle grid to load. All the while I could hear people on TS asking if anyone had actually loaded a grid and a few target calls.
I started locking up targets, which took between two and four minutes. When I finally had something locked it took another five or so minutes for the guns to actually activate, and in a lot of cases I got a message stating that "you are unable to lock <insert name here> because your max lock range is <whatever> and he is actually <some absurdly high number> km away."
During the battle someone did fire at me, I was taking damage and could see missile explosions on my ship but according to my overview nobody had me locked up.
The lag got a little better as TCF forces were decimated. By the time every enemy ship had either warped out or been destroyed the game became nearly lag-free again, but at that point local had dropped to under 200 pilots. I'm guessing the fact that people were recalling drones and popping enemy leftovers helped as well.
On the way back I had the weirdest thing ever happen to me, we jumped through the gate as a group, I got the traffic control thing again and after a few minutes I jumped into the neighboring system - only I didn't appear at the gate, but 900k off the gate at some random moon.
Anyhow, claims that only the coalition forces suffered from horrible lag are unfounded. The whole battle was one gigantic lagfest for both sides and not a whole lot of fun, all things considered.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:32:00 -
[87]
Originally by: necronarcosis Edited by: necronarcosis on 27/06/2007 10:10:15
Originally by: Doc Punkiller I suggest that ccp's investors fire the current dev team and hire people that actually know how to design, code and test.
In other time and place, seppuku would have been an option for such a miserable technical failure.
The current situation is inacceptable.
are you joking? the dev team in eve is one of the most capable and respected teams in the whole mmo world. We all here understand that lag and other problems like desync are ruining people play, but theres simply put no quick fix to it. If they did do what you say eve would likely close because not many programmers/coders would know where to start if they were thrown in at the deep end with eve's setup.
Lol, both your comments are a bit nonsensical. CCP is undoubtedly doing the best they can, suggesting they go kill themselves is silly. On the other hand, we don't know how good they are in terms of coding network efficiency, do we? Maybe another team could do better, how would we ever know.
About the lag, yeh its crappy when you lose ships to that, its generally extremely unpredictable and you cannot count on it happening or not happening in any way. If you desynced enmasse, I would just file reimbursement petitions and bugreports and leave it at that. Coming here to complain is fully understandable, but generally futile. Bugreports should be more productive, or maybe try to contact a developer through Kieron or on Sisi if you think there is a major new bug here.
I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you to see improvement directly, probably your best option shortterm is to try and work around the situation. As for fighting Bobbits, next time they jumpbridge their fleet in a situation like that, just disengage the hostile POS, go to a friendly POS and wait. From my experience BoB likes to open cynoes at 300 AU safespots, generally its not very smart to try and warp your fleet to it. Just disengage and wait for more favorable circumstances to engage their fleet.
------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
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Drykor
Minmatar Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:41:00 -
[88]
We had simular problems in S-E in the North a few days ago, client froze for me, after a while it worked again but I couldn't lock anything, same for half of the people on teamspeak. This was about a 100-150 vs 100-150 man battle, I'm not entirely sure 'cause of the lag/desync/whatever.
Personally I don't enjoy fights over 50 vs 50 'cause you already start noticing the delays, even before rev II. Eve's endgame is entirely broken and I already changed my subscription interval from 3 months to 1 month, it just takes slightly more frustration to actually quit I guess.
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Vyyrus
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:41:00 -
[89]
I was in the fleet battle at YA0 yesterday. The lag was awful. I could not move my ship anywhere even just in a little taranis trying to control fighters. It kept on skipping everywhere. My ship eventually got blown up by pos towers trying to warp out 5 times. This was one of my real experiences with a giant fleet battle and it was not good almost made me cancel my accounts still thinking about it.
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Gozmoth
Amarr Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:44:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Lakedaimon I read a lot of posts from TCF/Goons complaining about massive lags and desynchs while simultaneously claiming that BoB did not suffer from lag. Here's how the battle played out for me:
Thanks for your explanation.
For us, it was rather different. We will have videos soon to explain in depth how the eve connection/client was faulty, but in two words : we did not experienced lag but the game was looking frozen - in 10/20 minutes, we saw nothing, no ennemy moving, no kaboom, nothing.
In fact : * the game was frozen from the client side * the fame was NOT frozen from the server side, jut laggy
Thus all our orders was recorded by server (with lag), but we have never ever see a damn thing with the client. Unable to see what's going on.
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Cramps
Fungal Infection
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:48:00 -
[91]
Dynamic load balancing + a battery of "spare" nodes running empty until something "special" (like any sort of fleet battle, even a rather small one) comes up. I am firmly convinced that that's the solution as far as server-side lag is concerned. Regardless of that, there is still a lot of client-side lag and sluggishness because it seems the engine brings even today's best PCs to their knees.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:50:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Vyyrus I was in the fleet battle at YA0 yesterday. The lag was awful. I could not move my ship anywhere even just in a little taranis trying to control fighters. It kept on skipping everywhere. My ship eventually got blown up by pos towers trying to warp out 5 times. This was one of my real experiences with a giant fleet battle and it was not good almost made me cancel my accounts still thinking about it.
This doesn't sound like a desync though I have experienced this - your frame rate died didn't it?
We've had a number of experiences where we get on grid despite sound off/effects off/ramdrive the client gets a .1 FPS or so and you just physically can't click to warp out.
As far as I can tell that's the render path being ******** and putting a blocking call somewhere, because the server lag is bearable but the client stutter makes it unplayable.
And we have noticed it seems to disfavor the side warping in (this is also not grid loading lag - I load grid, then the FPS dies. It's also not my system - larger numbers of ships run smooth.)
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Vyyrus
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:51:00 -
[93]
All I know is ccp better quit fixing things for the noobs and start fixing real issues.
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mr bighelmet
EnTech Pax Familia
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:09:00 -
[94]
Edited by: mr bighelmet on 27/06/2007 11:09:31
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: DubanFP
it's all becomes exponential when it's all on the same grid. HUGE difference then when they're all at seperate locations. The computer would have to transfer all this information and bring EVERYONE up to date at the same time.
Yes, but this is true for every mmorpg. How come a WoW server can handle 100 people shooting at eachother (remember Tarren Mill?) without severe lag? Thats just one server, not a supercluster like Eve has.
Im not really understanding why the amount of data sent should be any different. Locations, damage, server doing calculations for hits and misses etc. The Eve cluster is hell of a lot stronger than one of those WoW servers ever was.
I think its basically just old code laying around. The new network layer might make things a lot better.
You seem to fail to understand what the diffrance between eve and the rest of the MMO is. Take Everquest (everyone is using the same idea like them except Eve), They devide there customers between worlds, Each world is running on sevrel computers (It's close to cluster but not exactly), Each computer host one or more Zones, the busy zones get a computer for themselve the less busy share the computer with one or more Zones. At no time can a player be using the resource of more then one computer and the processing/io power of that computer will limit the amount of player/activity that can happen in the zone(s) before lag start to hit you. Eve is running a single world, this world is running on a "SuperComputer" That is build up from a lot of nodes each node can host one or more systems, the busy systems get a node for themselve the less busy share the node with other systems. At no time can a player be using the resource of more then one Node and the processing/io power of that Node will limit the amount of player/activity that can happen in the zone(s) before lag start to hit you.
So the the limit in Everquest (And wow) is the single computer power the limit in Eve is the single node power.
The main difrance between eve and the rest of the MMO is that Eve have bundle of there Nodes into one supercomputer while the rest of the MMO world arange there computers into lots of clusters, so no matter how big is the Everquest server farm is and how big Eve super computer is it wont really affect the limit where lag start to hit becuse at any single moment a player (and the local he is in) is only using one Computer or one node.
That is why WoW will lag out if u bring 200 people to fight in the same local everquest will lag even more (since the code is even older) and Eve will start lag at a little bit more. If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest |
Ztrain
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:22:00 -
[95]
First of all it was laggy for both sides. We all thought we were gonna get out of there in medical clones before jumping in. We can complain and ***** about how the game is or isn't in it's current state all we want but it is what it is so until it gets fixed you ether evolve and adapt or you leave. Survial of the fittest in a way.
Suggestion to the Coalition, you know lag exists, if you don't want it don't bring so many people in to defend. Does it really take 270 people to take down a POS and lock down a system? Kinda sad if the answer to that is yes. Do more with less is always more efficient.
As far as the game lag. Having played most other MMOs and knowing a lot more about them then I should they have the same sort of lag as EVE does. The difference is ether their developers are are lot more experienced. CCP through lack of experience have not figgured out how to manage this problem. If it wasn't for the fear that they'd destroy everything that makes this game unique and fun I'd recommend that SoE buy out CCP because then at least the dev's would get replaced and game would function after 6 months.
The solution is what is commonly refered to as the Hop effect. I'll try to explain. In EVE watch when your in warp to gate with large number of friendly forces. Not in combat just say a roaving gang. You client right before loading the grid will freeze as it gets the update. EVE is coded so that if it doesn't have all the information is locks until it believes it has all the information. That is what prevents in large fleet engagements things from happening. For example in a laggy situation when you initiate a warp and get "desynced." When you log back in you find that you log back in where you warped too. Why because your client sent the warp command to the server and it was processed. So server side you had warped period. Same for locking activating guns everything that happens.
The problem is you don't see this happening. Why? Because your client isn't told the information from the server? No. The reason why is because the EVE client is designed to not display anything until it has what it percieves as, "the whole picture." And as that picture changes the client realizes ops there a new person on grid I can't do anything until I know where exactly their state is. The problem is with hundres of people all on grid it is nearly impossible for the entire picture to be known by any client at any given point in time. So everyone sits and sits while their clients wait to get all the updates.
I know of no other MMO that does does this. The problem is the same lag and massive numbers in the same vicinity but what other more experienced development teams have discovered is the hop effect. Never ever under any circumstances lock the gameplay for the player (like EVE does). Take two clients in EverQuest and put on on /follow of the other. Run in a direction and turn the character in the front a couple degress to the left or right. On the client in front your see the change imeaditly. On the character in back you will continue to run until it gets the update then the person in front will hop to where it is at the time of the update. The client will not freeze.
Same can be seen in WoW. Log in to Iron Forge. Hundres of people around kinda like jumping in to a grid fill with hostile forces. WoW like most other games does not lock the client it allows you to run around an move check mail and interact with the world. As the grid updates people pop up. It's not that they weren't there before you saw them it's that your client just hadn't gotten an update for them yet.
But the big difference that most more experienced developers have found out is never lock the client. There is nothing more irritating players then not being able to do anything. If when loading a grid players can still move and lock and start to "play" with what they can see their a lot happies and have more enjoyable experience. Z *snip* Don't use your signature to troll. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:23:00 -
[96]
It's sickening that they can get away with promoting fleet battles of 1000 participants. Anyone tried Jita on a crowdy day? Imagine if everyone in local was at the same spot?...
The pain.
- Recruitment open again-
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FarScape III
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:24:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
When are they even going to be ABLE to fix 200+ fleet lag? Forget it, people want to walk in stations because they will finally be able to do something that is not like looking at a still photo, can you blame them?
And CCP did do stuff to stop laggy battles, they are trying to make people fly in smaller groups but if you all do not want to do that then go have a lag fest for all I care.
Heck coop missions lag too much even.
People have to LISTEN to CCOP for once and understand either you learn to fight in smaller fleet or you suffer in lag. So hopefully CCP will get people to start doing that with these new pos features.
A Minmater City... Cool! My Skills |
Filatov Teg
Rebirth Inc. Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:32:00 -
[98]
That must be true Ztrain I agree with your advices to limit the number of participant of a blockade or POS killing
but...
I'm experiencing this issue often in light gang (~15 teammate)
Must relog to get a functioning UI.
-------------------------------------- Ride on Shooting staaaaaaaarrrrrrrr!!!
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:34:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Drykor We had simular problems in S-E in the North a few days ago, client froze for me, after a while it worked again but I couldn't lock anything, same for half of the people on teamspeak. This was about a 100-150 vs 100-150 man battle, I'm not entirely sure 'cause of the lag/desync/whatever.
Personally I don't enjoy fights over 50 vs 50 'cause you already start noticing the delays, even before rev II. Eve's endgame is entirely broken and I already changed my subscription interval from 3 months to 1 month, it just takes slightly more frustration to actually quit I guess.
"nice" that also your side had lagg:) allready started to believe that maybe the bob pets (not you but t i t s) got the new tactical nodecrash device:)
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:34:00 -
[100]
Originally by: FarScape III
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Chelone CCP, are you reading these threads?
Fix the fleet battle problem. Make this your priority. Not station-walking, not Eve-TV. It's a space combat game. The space combat is broken.
I agree, but fixing lag doesn't get more players to sign up innocently for your trial; station-walking and flashy outfits do.
When are they even going to be ABLE to fix 200+ fleet lag? Forget it, people want to walk in stations because they will finally be able to do something that is not like looking at a still photo, can you blame them?
And CCP did do stuff to stop laggy battles, they are trying to make people fly in smaller groups but if you all do not want to do that then go have a lag fest for all I care.
Heck coop missions lag too much even.
People have to LISTEN to CCOP for once and understand either you learn to fight in smaller fleet or you suffer in lag. So hopefully CCP will get people to start doing that with these new pos features.
So it's not a sandbox then?
If the cluster can't handle fleet fights, CCP, just say so. Tell us: "We're sorry guys, we can't figure out a way to make EVE work with big fleets".
The very game design promotes it, even with these changes, "Oh, we can't jump in dreads to take this and that out, bring on more BS... " guess what the enemies are gonna do... that's right, bring more BS, because working for a piece of territory isn't something you'll just throw away because the game can't handle it.
I dunno dude. I can accept that if you have a ****ty system, and the game lags... that's fine and dandy. And they may say that all of this is fixed whenever, with whatever patch. That's been going on for ages.
Truth is this is an awesome game, what kills it is the lag. Clean and simple.
- Recruitment open again-
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Draath
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:38:00 -
[101]
I know that I'm a noob, but haven't these problems existed for a while? CCP put mechanics in to decrease the numbers game (bombs, etc.), so shouldn't it have been anticipated that bringing the bulk of the fleet could have disasterous consequences. Aren't many of the changes in Rev. 2 an admission that lag is here to stay, at least temporarially?
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:43:00 -
[102]
Quote: so shouldn't it have been anticipated that bringing the bulk of the fleet could have disasterous consequences.
Dude the game is like that. If your opponent fields 50 bs you dont go with 5 because you get wtfbbqd. So either way is disasterous so whats you solution? if you go outgunned you die, if you field even numbers you die to lagg, if you outblobb the enemy you die to lagg..
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Ztrain
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:44:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Filatov Teg That must be true Ztrain I agree with your advices to limit the number of participant of a blockade or POS killing
but...
I'm experiencing this issue often in light gang (~15 teammate)
Must relog to get a functioning UI.
It can and will happen at any time. It will happen any time your client thinks it doesn't have the whole picture. If there's a server hickup or if there is a hickup in the internet that delay's a packet by a second you see it. That's why I said observe when your in a friendly gang. It's still there it's just less likely your going to notice while there's no imediate danger. But when in a major fleet battle with hundres of people this effect is garonteed.
They should stop the client from locking until update. Allow you to move activate mods etc. Just like in Iron Forge in WoW. Then as your client gets more ships updated the appear. But at least while you might not be able to see the entire fleet all at once at least you'd be able to start playing and fighting in the mean time.
It is one of these two options, fortunatly for most other sucessful MMOs they've chosen the more enjoyable to the player method.
Z *snip* Don't use your signature to troll. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Haks'he Lirky
8th
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:48:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Kunelk I'm new to eve online and I just read that huge fleet battle with over 200 ships, lags a crapload lot and everything. How can those be even fun or entertaining? How could this be even remotly fine?
I can understand we are all on on single server and its complicated... But serioulsy? How can this be acceptable?
What I dont understand and have never understood in this whole discussion is where do players get the idea that 200 people fighting in one place in a computer game will not be laggy?
Is there a game out there that accomodates such fighting without lag?
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Pelf Matagraph
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:51:00 -
[105]
Some technical stuff. But what follows might all be garbage because I've never had my hands on CCP's cluster.
As a reference, I have a fractional ds3 and a cluster in my *home*. So I'm commenting from a professional standpoint.
While I've not participated in fleet battles, I know quite a bit about clustering, and can extrapolate a number of issues regarding fleet battle lag. Given the experimental nature of the CCP cluster (It's never been done before!!), there are a couple of technical issues that come to mind which may or may not be escapable depending on how vigorous the veracity of the kill conditions have to be adhered to.
My suspicion is that CCP, on the server side, has a lot of code designed to make sure that battles fought are not won/lost based on network latency. Network latency is essentially the measure of how long it takes a packet to make a round trip from a one place to another, in this case from the EVE client to the EVE server.
The largest issue I see in large fleet battles is that of synchronization. When a battle starts, all clients have to be synchronized (and they are 100% synchronized during normal non-battle game play). However in a fleet battle, there is a new variable:
"The Other Guys Lag"
The problem is this:
Let's say that for 25% of the players in the battle it takes 25 milliseconds for a packet to round trip between client and server, for 50% it's 125 milliseconds, and for 25% it's 200 milliseconds.
Now the EVE server has to maintain synchronization for the battle to actually work. And since there are varying response rates from the clients, it must conduct the battle in a manner where the processing is throttled (a timing change) to suit the slowest clients.
The above scenario can be illustrated if you've ever played something like Command and Conquer and you hosted a game where one of your players comes in at 500ms latency, and the game becomes a slide show.
The second issue on the client end is hardware. In a 200 ship battle, the client machines are rendering and insane amount of graphics, processing data that goes into the scanner, and exchanging information about the state of your ship, and all the other ships in range.
Here's where the kicker comes in: Some people playing the game have slow hardware and that RAISES the latency up higher for their connection. At that point latency skyrockets, the servers are waiting for data from these clients, and everyone in the battle gets a slide show.
Given the fact that on CCPs hardware Jita essentially dies when more than 700 players are in the system, a 200 ship fleet battle should be a piece of cake for their cluster.
I think the problem is combined latency, and it's a tricky problem. If you allow clients to lag while others keep up, then the laggers get killed. If you cater to the slowest clients then everyone gets a slide show. This choice of how to handle this situation goes back to "how vigorous the veracity of the kill conditions have to be adhered to".
As an example:
Quake III, which did not synch all clients has a low kill veracity. If you have high latency you automatically lose.
Alternatively:
Command and Conquer has a high kill veracity because all clients are 100% synced at all times.
(As a note there was a cvar in the Quake III server setup that would force full sync. It resulted in a slideshow as soon as a high latency client connected)
CCP probably wants the kill veracity to be high, thus they do not desynch slower players in battles and a slideshow ensues.
Regarding cluster issues
The fact of the matter is this: You can throw faster hardware at any problem and never solve the problem. There are so many intervening factors in what CCP is doing with their cluster that more hardware, while perhaps needed, will not make the problem go away. High latency and packet loss are probably the real demons. |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:51:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
Originally by: Kunelk I'm new to eve online and I just read that huge fleet battle with over 200 ships, lags a crapload lot and everything. How can those be even fun or entertaining? How could this be even remotly fine?
I can understand we are all on on single server and its complicated... But serioulsy? How can this be acceptable?
What I dont understand and have never understood in this whole discussion is where do players get the idea that 200 people fighting in one place in a computer game will not be laggy?
Is there a game out there that accomodates such fighting without lag?
If its not possible for teh servers to handle such huge ammounts of people fighting, ccp has to implement game mechanics to inhibit forming such huge fleets and limit gang size and how many people each system can support..
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:51:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
What I dont understand and have never understood in this whole discussion is where do players get the idea that 200 people fighting in one place in a computer game will not be laggy?
There are games that advertise battles of such size and games that don't. Most of the former and some of the latter handle it well, EVE doesn't.
this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
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amarrly
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:03:00 -
[108]
Had the same problem last night our gang engaged a similar sized gang on a gate, a little lag as i warped in, screen freezed for about 3 seconds,then the grid loaded, roughly 30 ships on the grid ours and theirs, battle was going fine, targets being called, they called back up, 70 bob jumped the gate,franticly trying to hit warp, everything froze....and froze.....and froze......did'nt even see the 7 bs's that were on my killmail load into the grid, on my overview, anywere.
moral of the story, petion sent, waiting for automated reply, "we did not experience any server problems petion denied"
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SFShootme
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:04:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Pelf Matagraph
As an example:
Quake III, which did not synch all clients has a low kill veracity. If you have high latency you automatically lose.
Alternatively:
Command and Conquer has a high kill veracity because all clients are 100% synced at all times.
(As a note there was a cvar in the Quake III server setup that would force full sync. It resulted in a slideshow as soon as a high latency client connected)
CCP probably wants the kill veracity to be high, thus they do not desynch slower players in battles and a slideshow ensues.
Regarding cluster issues
The fact of the matter is this: You can throw faster hardware at any problem and never solve the problem. There are so many intervening factors in what CCP is doing with their cluster that more hardware, while perhaps needed, will not make the problem go away. High latency and packet loss are probably the real demons.
This is wrong, eve does not wait for clients to sync, it just sends data packets to all clients and does not wait for a response, if the client can not keep up with the data send by the server it is their loss.
Jita, is running on a seperate server (one of the fastest in the world) and is a case on it's own, and should not be used as a reference.
- Tho shall give Life, for Life. |
Ztrain
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:08:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Pelf Matagraph CCP probably wants the kill veracity to be high, thus they do not desynch slower players in battles and a slideshow ensues.
Bingo. The client then locks the action till all what I called the updates you refer to as synchs. All the same thing, are all on the same page. Personally when I was in the gaming industry I was of the opinion and still am that you do everything as fast as possible. If people are suffering due to bad performance of their connection or hardware it's time to upgrade. For all the ones that say well this is the best I can do.... Insert EMO Star Trek Quote, "The needs of the many out way the needs of the few or the one."
But it all comes down to CCP dev's made design can code decessions that directly create the current situation. They could if they chose to change it the methods used by most other MMO developers as they have pretty much proven that while not sync'd the playering being able to still interact with a partial world is less irritating and more enjoyable to the player. I can generally only target a couple of targets and jam or shoot at them anyways I don't NEED to know what EVERY other player on grid is doing at that EXACT moment.
Z *snip* Don't use your signature to troll. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
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Pelf Matagraph
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:09:00 -
[111]
Originally by: SFShootme
Originally by: Pelf Matagraph
As an example:
Quake III, which did not synch all clients has a low kill veracity. If you have high latency you automatically lose.
Alternatively:
Command and Conquer has a high kill veracity because all clients are 100% synced at all times.
(As a note there was a cvar in the Quake III server setup that would force full sync. It resulted in a slideshow as soon as a high latency client connected)
CCP probably wants the kill veracity to be high, thus they do not desynch slower players in battles and a slideshow ensues.
Regarding cluster issues
The fact of the matter is this: You can throw faster hardware at any problem and never solve the problem. There are so many intervening factors in what CCP is doing with their cluster that more hardware, while perhaps needed, will not make the problem go away. High latency and packet loss are probably the real demons.
This is wrong, eve does not wait for clients to sync, it just sends data packets to all clients and does not wait for a response, if the client can not keep up with the data send by the server it is their loss.
Jita, is running on a seperate server (one of the fastest in the world) and is a case on it's own, and should not be used as a reference.
-
Well if I am wrong, then EVE has a low kill veracity and fleet battles are a trip to Vegas.
Good luck. |
joshua cane
Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:11:00 -
[112]
Edited by: joshua cane on 27/06/2007 12:16:59 and it's difficult for ccp to investigate because log don't show anything because is screen desync on client side but not in server side it seem
yesterday in 46dp with my cover i see a friendly bs shooted by 10 inty for 5 min ( wtf i tank very well ) and i lunch my scanner ( abaddon wreck on scan 150 km away )
ok another desync ( locaml was only 40-50)
a video soon will confirm this
CCP NEED to investigate this issue rapidly
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Martin Mckenna
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:12:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dark Shikari The solution is to not see a force of 100 enemies and think "HAY IF WE BRING 300 WE CAN BEAT THEM!"
True that, but I gather it was the other way round. That is, that TCF + friends had 300 in system doing POS warfare stuffs, and BoB cyno'd a 100 strong fleet in to fight them.
Which begs the question- if there are 300 people destroying your POS's, and you DON'T bring in the blob, what DO you do? Leave them to much on your towers?
reduce the blob and reduce lag. tcf killed themself in a way....still not acceptable
Its about to begin.... |
fuze
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:13:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Pelf Matagraph Now the EVE server has to maintain synchronization for the battle to actually work. And since there are varying response rates from the clients, it must conduct the battle in a manner where the processing is throttled (a timing change) to suit the slowest clients.
So to fix it you would have to make EVE turn based?
A while ago I suggested that CCP should think about slowing down time in a system with that many people in local. Probably a bit hard to implement but its worth while to look into it IMHO.
As to the jumpbridge advantage. It still isn't fixed and is giving an unfair advantage. |
Dano Katiria
adeptus gattacus Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:16:00 -
[115]
little question, nodes handle groups of systems right?
could nodes handle groups of players, so if there were say 20,000 people in jita, nearly all of the nodes would be handling jita?
or is this so wrong i should leave and never come back ever again?
Being nice is for ugly people - Falazi |
Ztrain
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:17:00 -
[116]
Originally by: fuze So to fix it you would have to make EVE turn based?
Nope not at all. WoW has the solution I mentioned and it's not turn based. It works quite well mechanically in that game and would work wonders here.
Z *snip* Don't use your signature to troll. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
B orange
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:20:00 -
[117]
Main concern here is not about lag and desync (whatever that is) but from the fact that you get shot at and see nothing... most whinning come from here.
So, how about (after a warp or jump) making ships invulnerable unless 100% synchronized? After that it's up to you and your connection but at least that will solve "you load it first and i died blindly" issue.
Ofcourse, if you're first to load from your side and face 5 enemies it's still $hitty but at least you can react in a way or another.
I don't know how much code change will involve or other implications but invulnerability state is already implemented.. any other major changes are almost imposible to implement, i hope you know that slightest change in how it works right now requires imense manhours. a new, better engine may solve *some* problems but that's the future...
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Pelf Matagraph
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:22:00 -
[118]
Originally by: fuze
Originally by: Pelf Matagraph Now the EVE server has to maintain synchronization for the battle to actually work. And since there are varying response rates from the clients, it must conduct the battle in a manner where the processing is throttled (a timing change) to suit the slowest clients.
So to fix it you would have to make EVE turn based?
A while ago I suggested that CCP should think about slowing down time in a system with that many people in local. Probably a bit hard to implement but its worth while to look into it IMHO.
As to the jumpbridge advantage. It still isn't fixed and is giving an unfair advantage.
As long as you understand my comments are *theoretical* based on the fact CCP doesnt let me play with their code and cluster:
When the latency rises due to any factor, and the 200 ship fleet battle grinds to a slideshow, the slideshow is essentially turn based.
If you see what I'm getting at. |
Pelf Matagraph
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:31:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Ztrain
Originally by: fuze So to fix it you would have to make EVE turn based?
Nope not at all. WoW has the solution I mentioned and it's not turn based. It works quite well mechanically in that game and would work wonders here.
Z
Yes the WoW solution is this:
1. No more than 3000 on a shard.
2. Cruddy physics (Um no physics?).
3. Low kill veracity.
4. Less data (in the extreme) when comparing a sword strike to 5 medium turrets firing, 5 drones in flight and fighting, modules glowing, sensors data, and a partridge in a pear tree.
All those differences, and *yet* Ironforge can still be a slideshow. And NO ONE usually has a fleet battle there!
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N'olive
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:36:00 -
[120]
Edited by: N''olive on 27/06/2007 12:36:40 Edited by: N''olive on 27/06/2007 12:36:04
Quote: The lag got a little better as TCF forces were decimated.
We lost only 17 ships over 95, not that much a "decimation" :] After 15 minutes of freeze, orders were given to relog, hoping to...
Quote: This de-sync problem is something new, it appears to be mainly a problem with the client (since not everyone on grid gets affected), although I expect server conditions do play their part, and can only be fixed with a relog.
I was in 6T3, I warped to the cyno at 100KM in my covops and immediately locked up. My overview loaded a dozen BS before freezing, nothing changed on my screen for 20-30 minutes (could still see the cyno and first bubble) before I logged out. I did try warping out to a belt, but nothing appeared to have happened, when I logged back in later I was at the belt so obviously my command made it to the server but my client never acknowledged any more data.
I have heard of similar things happening before RevII, but since the 'upgrade' things have been 10x worse. I cannot help but be reminded of the Dragon release where the node would crash if more than 20 people attempted to fight on-grid.
It's EXACTLY how it happened for all the people that were already in the system when the other fleet jumped in.
Quote: how many people were in system? just your gangs or were u in a busy area there is a huge difference
We were doing nothing, just hanging around of course.... oh wait no, we were shooting a POS (ironical), if that's not some activity...
And we're trying to seriously discuss technical matters here, please all trols stay away (Yes, BoB trolls too).
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Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:40:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Pizi on 27/06/2007 12:40:12 Same can be seen in WoW. Log in to Iron Forge. Hundres of people around kinda like jumping in to a grid fill with hostile forces. WoW like most other games does not lock the client it allows you to run around an move check mail and interact with the world. As the grid updates people pop up. It's not that they weren't there before you saw them it's that your client just hadn't gotten an update for them yet. ----------------------------
thats an great example
in the beginning loggin into IF would freeze the client and if there were to many players the client desynced and the server dropped you
it took me 4 or 5 times loggin in to stay with the client frozen for minutes
Blizzard chaned it to the way described above good move from them now you log in, see only the enviroment and the client slowely catches up doesnt take long 2 min max but thats way better then what we have in EVE now
_______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
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Ciuci
FinFleet
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:45:00 -
[122]
after jump-bridge ... I was in a stars screen for like 2 minutes ... then planets appeared ... and then another 2-3 minutes for the overview to load ... after that everything was something like 5-7 sec of activation time ... looting was kinda hard ... and scanning also ... took like 10-15 seconds to load the result from the scan probes ... I warped out and in of the battle like 4 times and everything was smooth. Get a better ISP and a better computer and things will work better. And don't engage in big fleet fight with 3 accounts ffs.
my2cents
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Scavok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:48:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:51:14 Battles in wwiiol are similar in complexity and scale. Their solution was the "64 limit" where people only received updates for 64 other players. Players were never invisible to each other, if you had someone loaded, they had you loaded. As CRS (devs of wwiiol) improved their hardware and code, they increased the player limit. The downside to this in wwiiol was players randomly vanishing and appearing. There would be more downsides in eve but I think it would be a better solution than hardcoding a player limit into the game.
And yeah, this has nothing to do with the desynch that is completely gamebreaking and not related to normal lag. It needs to be fixed asap. When my gang desynched in dreadnoughts and carriers the other day we were still able to jump out of the system, despite the game acting as if I had completely lost connection.
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N'olive
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:50:00 -
[124]
Edited by: N''olive on 27/06/2007 12:51:34 What's wrong is the communication between the Eve client and it's server, last night I had 30+ FPS and still I was frozen in space. I'm running a Dual-Core 6700 with 4GB RAM and ATIx1950 PRO able to easily run most of recent 3D games at 100+ FPS high-res, my Eve is optimized with all the possible tricks, client hardware isn't the culprit.
It is something that was introduced since rev II.
HOW COME this game isn't able to put a message on screen when it gets no reply from the server after few seconds ?!? That's level zero of programming, checking that a client and a server are synched to avoid loss of datas.
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:51:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Scavok Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:48:02 Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:47:31 Battles in wwiiol are similar in complexity and scale. Their solution was the "64 limit" where people only received updates for 64 other players. Players were never invisible to each other, if you had someone loaded, they had you loaded. As CRS (devs of wwiiol) improved their hardware and code, they increased the player limit. There is obviously a downside to this, but I think it would be a better solution than hardcoding a player limit into the game.
That would NEVER work in eve. In fleets people are called primaries, now if you didn't know who had which people loaded then you would NEVER be able to keep the battle organized. ____________
Dark Shikari> If at first you don't succeed, whine about t20. |
Richard Aiel
Caldari MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:54:00 -
[126]
What are these customization tricks everyone keeps referring to to reduce lag? Irony: Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true |
ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:54:00 -
[127]
actually, i fink focused fire was something the devs were looking at.
by disabling the overview when tow or more gangs of, say 100+ ships met, ccp could probably claw back a few FPS.
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Istian Goss
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:54:00 -
[128]
<sarcasm> Can somebody please point me towards the wonderful game that allows 100s of players (on screen/shooting at each other) at once with no lag?
I get the impression from this thread that such a game is possible.... </sarcasm>
Seriously though a couple of points: 1. Can older players elaborate on how eve's lag has changed over time? I've been told it used to be much worse, when did it previously lock up?
2. Part of the problem (I think) is node balancing. I mean Jita is usually fairly stable because it gets its own node and lots of resources because it has a constant high occupancy. Most of the fleet fights occur in 0.0 where normally there are only a few ppl per system. Hence its a node per constellation or so. So when you put 400 ppl in the same system, on the same grid, trouble occurs.
Am I right in saying that node balancing only occurs at d/t?
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Scavok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:55:00 -
[129]
Originally by: DubanFP
Originally by: Scavok Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:48:02 Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:47:31 Battles in wwiiol are similar in complexity and scale. Their solution was the "64 limit" where people only received updates for 64 other players. Players were never invisible to each other, if you had someone loaded, they had you loaded. As CRS (devs of wwiiol) improved their hardware and code, they increased the player limit. There is obviously a downside to this, but I think it would be a better solution than hardcoding a player limit into the game.
That would NEVER work in eve. In fleets people are called primaries, now if you didn't know who had which people loaded then you would NEVER be able to keep the battle organized.
Yeah, it would be tough and tactics would need to change, but sometimes I think it would be better than what we have currently. Although it would have to be a lot higher than 64 as that would be a little nuts.
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N'olive
Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:59:00 -
[130]
Edited by: N''olive on 27/06/2007 12:58:07
Quote: Anyhow, claims that only the coalition forces suffered from horrible lag are unfounded. The whole battle was one gigantic lagfest for both sides and not a whole lot of fun, all things considered.
Wrong, coalition (already in the system) suffered a massive de-synch, alliance (entering via jump portal) suffered a huge lag.
I'm not discussing wich one is better, and who are the good and the bad guys, I don't care, it's just that TECHNICALLY it happened like this.
We all agree (apart the trolls maybe) that it was boring for both sides.
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Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:03:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Istian Goss
<sarcasm> Can somebody please point me towards the wonderful game that allows 100s of players (on screen/shooting at each other) at once with no lag?
I get the impression from this thread that such a game is possible.... </sarcasm>
well DAOC has quite a few 100 people at relict raids
it could handle 300 or 400 without mayor lag if more show up it had the same problems
_______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
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Richard Aiel
Caldari MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:03:00 -
[132]
Well i guess im a troll then cause according to all the kills BoB got and all the hundreds of posts of smack in the other thread they liked very much what happened and didnt seem bored at all.
Irony: Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true Dark Shikari> Keep saying it itll come true |
Antonia Nambaun
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:06:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Antonia Nambaun on 27/06/2007 13:07:30 Ignore - alt.
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Reithan
Caldari LEGI0N SOUL CARTEL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:07:00 -
[134]
I hate to make this example, but maybe CCP should contact NCSoft. NCSoft's Lineage 2 has large-scale seige battle where you have several hundred people fighting all on the same screen and the only lag I've ever heard of was client-side. Hell, i fyou've got a good enough computer (like me), there's NO lag.
So, if Lineage can handle battles with nearly a thousand people without the server lagging, how come EVE can't handle one with even a couple hundred?
CCP, please talk to NCSoft and get them to teach you their 1337 non-lagging skillz. |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:09:00 -
[135]
Edited by: James Duar on 27/06/2007 13:10:53 There's no technical reason keeping the client in sync and framerate need to be linked, the client just needs to be written to gracefully handle this situation (i.e. keep rendering frames but represent the process of syncing by reduced passage of time - this is not technically a very difficult exercise).
Anyway I have my doubts that's what's happening - the slide show is because the client is loading/waiting for things when it shouldn't, and the fact you observe "module lag" indicates it normally is supposed to keep rendering when updates aren't coming from the server.
IMO the answer really is to just slow down time when server load increases - time running slower for everyone means that their are fewer damage calculations per second, fewer collision tests (ships can only have moved so far in the slow time frame so more can be excluded from paired-tests) and it means that lag prediction works better in the client because it's unlikely the ships change their status drastically between server ticks.
EDIT: Of course I suppose it's an issue in terms of simulating the rest of the world. Still, no reason not to just do it for 1 grid I suppose - while there could be issues of being able to reinforce ridiculously fast, I would think they'd be somewhat minor.
An alternative option would simply be to reduce the granularity of combat as load increases - dial up weapon damages/rep amounts.
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Da Ram
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:16:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Da Ram on 27/06/2007 13:15:34
I ve been a while to the game. So far I have not seen or been in any battle with more than 60 people in the same grid.
However I am now advancing to the player "age" where I would like to finally participate in such fleet battles as advertised by CCP.
It is quite sad to read that this vital part of Eve, one that keeps veteran players in game, does not only not work but is wholly broken.
The result of this is twofold:
a) CCP obviously does not want to cater to veterans much b) More and more Veterans will leave due to this
Reading that this game always had issues with fleet battles and "will always have them" does not improve the situation much.
But what really is the killer is that CCP is not commenting on this in any proper way thinkable. Moreso "broken" fleet battles of 1000+ players are referred to as great successes and used to draw in more paying customers.
What to do ?
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Ambre Blanche
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:17:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Ztrain The solution is what is commonly refered to as the Hop effect. I'll try to explain. In EVE watch when your in warp to gate with large number of friendly forces. Not in combat just say a roaving gang. You client right before loading the grid will freeze as it gets the update. EVE is coded so that if it doesn't have all the information is locks until it believes it has all the information. That is what prevents in large fleet engagements things from happening. For example in a laggy situation when you initiate a warp and get "desynced." When you log back in you find that you log back in where you warped too. Why because your client sent the warp command to the server and it was processed. So server side you had warped period. Same for locking activating guns everything that happens.
The problem is you don't see this happening. Why? Because your client isn't told the information from the server? No. The reason why is because the EVE client is designed to not display anything until it has what it percieves as, "the whole picture." And as that picture changes the client realizes ops there a new person on grid I can't do anything until I know where exactly their state is. The problem is with hundres of people all on grid it is nearly impossible for the entire picture to be known by any client at any given point in time. So everyone sits and sits while their clients wait to get all the updates.
I know of no other MMO that does does this. The problem is the same lag and massive numbers in the same vicinity but what other more experienced development teams have discovered is the hop effect. Never ever under any circumstances lock the gameplay for the player (like EVE does). Take two clients in EverQuest and put on on /follow of the other. Run in a direction and turn the character in the front a couple degress to the left or right. On the client in front your see the change imeaditly. On the character in back you will continue to run until it gets the update then the person in front will hop to where it is at the time of the update. The client will not freeze.
Same can be seen in WoW. Log in to Iron Forge. Hundres of people around kinda like jumping in to a grid fill with hostile forces. WoW like most other games does not lock the client it allows you to run around an move check mail and interact with the world. As the grid updates people pop up. It's not that they weren't there before you saw them it's that your client just hadn't gotten an update for them yet.
But the big difference that most more experienced developers have found out is never lock the client. There is nothing more irritating players then not being able to do anything. If when loading a grid players can still move and lock and start to "play" with what they can see their a lot happies and have more enjoyable experience.
Couldn't say it better. Contemplating a frozen screen during 15 minutes KNOWING that my whole fleet was probably being slaughtered was a clear insult to my credit card.
Ambre.
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:17:00 -
[138]
Let me ask you guys that want this lag to be fixed one question. Just one and you just need to give me one answer.
Name one game that can hold 300 people fighting eachother where the lag is less that eve's?
Small story. I recruited a friend to the game, she had just started and was doing missions. I created a newb alt and went to do a few missions with you. Found out she was doing missions right next to jita. Not good, anyway I told her you should go somewhere else away for jita. She had no idea what jita was, so to get to this certain system we had to go through jita. I said there is 600 people in this system. She was shocked. In reply she said '600 people? On xbox live we only get 16 people playing'
Really makes you think what a special game this is.
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Zombak
Caldari Shooshpunk
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:17:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Istian Goss
<sarcasm> Can somebody please point me towards the wonderful game that allows 100s of players (on screen/shooting at each other) at once with no lag?
I get the impression from this thread that such a game is possible.... </sarcasm> d/t?
Dark age of camelot ?
Signature inappropriate and removed. All sigs must be in English as per forum rules - Valorem |
midge Mo'yb
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:19:00 -
[140]
Lag is bearable, you get used to it and you usually both suffer from it, De-sync on the other hand is a pain in the ass as you usually end up dead....
IMO sorting out this desync prolbem that has become very common since rev2 should be ccp's priority :)
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Zombak
Caldari Shooshpunk
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:20:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Depp Knight Let me ask you guys that want this lag to be fixed one question. Just one and you just need to give me one answer.
Name one game that can hold 300 people fighting eachother where the lag is less that eve's?
Small story. I recruited a friend to the game, she had just started and was doing missions. I created a newb alt and went to do a few missions with you. Found out she was doing missions right next to jita. Not good, anyway I told her you should go somewhere else away for jita. She had no idea what jita was, so to get to this certain system we had to go through jita. I said there is 600 people in this system. She was shocked. In reply she said '600 people? On xbox live we only get 16 people playing'
Really makes you think what a special game this is.
xbox as benchmark for mmorpg performance really made me smile.
Signature inappropriate and removed. All sigs must be in English as per forum rules - Valorem |
War Games
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:20:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Reithan So, if Lineage can handle battles with nearly a thousand people without the server lagging, how come EVE can't handle one with even a couple hundred?
CCP, please talk to NCSoft and get them to teach you their 1337 non-lagging skillz.
Lineage doesn't do 20k on one "virtual server" (IE the entire cluster IS the EVE server). Let's not start comparing apples to oranges... it just sounds dumb. What Gaming Dev's really think of you! |
Da Ram
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:24:00 -
[143]
Actually I just came across a different train of thought.
All of you - any participating in a fleet battle larger than 100 people breach the EULA :P
CONDUCT A. Specifically Restricted Conduct
Your continued access to the System and license to play the Game is subject to proper conduct. Without limiting CCP's rights to control the Game environment, and the conduct of the players within that environment, CCP prohibits the following practices that CCP has determined detract from the overall user experience of the users playing the Game:
1. You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System.
Sorry, but sometimes madness seems to be the only recourse.
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Gozmoth
Amarr Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:35:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Ztrain The solution is what is commonly refered to as the Hop effect. [...]
That's exactly what we have experienced, we saw no lag, only this "hop effect" !
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Laah T'Sin
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:35:00 -
[145]
Quote: Is there a game out there that accomodates such fighting without lag?
Actually yes. Take a look at SOEs PlanetSide. It's only a mindless shooter but i've had many many fights with HUNDREDS of players from many sides fighting eachother in one place at one time with an absolut minimum of lag. I mean the performance is so good that you can still snipe ppl in the head from 500 yards (so the lag can't be more then a few milliseconds).
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Big Al
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:39:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Reithan I hate to make this example, but maybe CCP should contact NCSoft. NCSoft's Lineage 2 has large-scale seige battle where you have several hundred people fighting all on the same screen and the only lag I've ever heard of was client-side. Hell, i fyou've got a good enough computer (like me), there's NO lag.
Clearly cat ears are the solution.
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mr bighelmet
EnTech Pax Familia
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:44:00 -
[147]
Originally by: War Games
Originally by: Reithan So, if Lineage can handle battles with nearly a thousand people without the server lagging, how come EVE can't handle one with even a couple hundred?
CCP, please talk to NCSoft and get them to teach you their 1337 non-lagging skillz.
Lineage doesn't do 20k on one "virtual server" (IE the entire cluster IS the EVE server). Let's not start comparing apples to oranges... it just sounds dumb.
It doesn't metter how many people are on the server only how many people are on the same node/computer. and If Lineage can handle 100s Vs 100s PvP then it's time to CCP to higher some coder from there.
If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest |
Ambre Blanche
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:49:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Depp Knight Let me ask you guys that want this lag to be fixed one question. Just one and you just need to give me one answer.
Name one game that can hold 300 people fighting eachother where the lag is less that eve's?
Small story. I recruited a friend to the game, she had just started and was doing missions. I created a newb alt and went to do a few missions with you. Found out she was doing missions right next to jita. Not good, anyway I told her you should go somewhere else away for jita. She had no idea what jita was, so to get to this certain system we had to go through jita. I said there is 600 people in this system. She was shocked. In reply she said '600 people? On xbox live we only get 16 people playing'
Really makes you think what a special game this is.
Once again you missed the whole point. The problem is not:
Is EVE able to handle 300+ fleet battle with no lag?
Personnally I don't give a damn about this, I can adapt my gameplay.
The problem is :
Is it smart to let players put themselves in a situation that the game obviously cannot handle correctly?
No it's not. Why do you thing the biggest PvP arena in the_game_one_EVE_player_should_never_say is limited BY DESIGN to 40 players maximum each side?
Ambre.
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Zerg Defiler
Zerg Hive
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:07:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Rauth Kivaro if it was lag, it would have affected both sides equally
hmmmm... not!
Originally by: Aleksey NB we know that Bob's haven't any lags in any battle
hmmmm... yes! (everyone know this)
Originally by: Ivan Kirilenkov please use this threadto discuss it in
we no need to discuss, we just want that CCP did the work for which to it pay money, its all.
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Stein Voorhees
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:16:00 -
[150]
What you are looking at is a fundamental limitation of Blade servers. Despite all of the good things about them, they are limited to a fixed amount of CPU and a fixed amount of memory. This means they have a finite amount of processing power. Put in a massive fleet fight and you will overwhelm the blade.
Modern servers these days can have a hige number of Logical servers within them. To all intents and purposes, these are individual servers held within one (or more) physical boxes. Resources can then be dynamicaly switched between them. For example, all servers are running with 0.1 of a CPU and 500mb of RAM. When the system detects these resources are not enough on a particular server it can automaticaly direct spare capacity to the server that needs it. This allows systems to dynamicaly react to demand at an OS level allowing a very versatile and reactive overall system.
If CCP ever want to look at it then drop me a line .
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Nobody 101
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:18:00 -
[151]
i BELIEVE it's python and the netcode i'm not an expert at it (python) but i don't see a way to write efficient code in such "high-level" languages
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DenoCorvinus
Blood Anarchy merc's Stella Polar
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:18:00 -
[152]
Originally by: mr bighelmet
Originally by: War Games
Originally by: Reithan So, if Lineage can handle battles with nearly a thousand people without the server lagging, how come EVE can't handle one with even a couple hundred?
CCP, please talk to NCSoft and get them to teach you their 1337 non-lagging skillz.
Lineage doesn't do 20k on one "virtual server" (IE the entire cluster IS the EVE server). Let's not start comparing apples to oranges... it just sounds dumb.
It doesn't metter how many people are on the server only how many people are on the same node/computer. and If Lineage can handle 100s Vs 100s PvP then it's time to CCP to higher some coder from there.
You missed drones, missels, wreck - Lineage havent all this stuff... Fireball cant miss. Bow cant miss... Lineage is much more simple.
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Reithan
Caldari LEGI0N SOUL CARTEL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:31:00 -
[153]
James Duar - slowdown:
Hell, if they did it right they could call it "bulletime" for fleet battles and have it be a "feature". lol
Depp Knight - name games with 100s:
DAOC WOW L2 Pretty much any modern MMO
War Games - L2 isn't one server:
SO? L2 is a PVP MMO, EVE is a PVP MMO - EVE decided to one server, if that decision is limiting them to the point that they can't reliably deliver promised content - then maybe they made a bad decision? Or maybe they just executed it badly??
Big Al - cat ears:
I lol'd
DenoCorvinus - L2 - no drones, missiles, wrecks, fireballs/arrows don't miss:
Yeah, L2 does have missiles. Every fireball, arrows or whatever that flies through the air in L2 has the same effect as a missile - a projectile that needs to be rendered.
L2 doesn't have drones, EVE doesn't have summons and soulshots.
Wrecks? Drops.
Fireballs and Arrows CAN miss in L2.
Thanks for playing, but you sadly, lose.
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Chigger Troutslayer
The Intergalactic Federation ASGARDIAN EMPIRE
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Posted - 2007.06.27 14:59:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Kwint Sommer A fight of more than 200 players isn't fun regardless of the lag. There's absolutely no strategy or skill on the part of the individual pilot. It's just someone barking a list of targets at you until you pop.
I believe the battle that took down the BoB titan had around 200 and it had reasonable lag.
But please give me the chance to decide for myself how fun it is. I was in my first fleet battle a few days ago, about 60 in our gang, similar amount defending. A few seconds after the engagement started I was staring at a frozen screen with 1/3 shields left, my ship and my wreck superimposed, and half the modules gone. It stayed that way for 5 minutes til I control-Q'd and woke in the clone bay. Sure I may die quick, but let me see it happen. I payed good money for my ship, I want to see it explode.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.27 15:03:00 -
[155]
Originally by: DubanFP Knowledgeable post about the way information is managed during fleet combat
THANK YOU. I am so tired of people not understanding how these things work, and then coming to the forums and claiming "OMY CCP YOURE SERVERS ARE TEH SUX FIX IT NOW." Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie IBTL! IBDS! IBTC! 1st in a BoB Post! And other such forum tom-foolery. |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2007.06.27 15:20:00 -
[156]
Speaking as a mathematician, there's some fairly dubious combinatorics going on here:
Originally by: DubanFP it's all becomes exponential
Originally by: Dark Shikari Quadratic, not exponential.
Originally by: B orange It's factorial, (n-1)!, "n" beeing number of players.
Dark Shikari's answer is probably the most accurate. On any one grid there are n players each interacting with approximately n other players, not counting drones, bubbles or anything like that; such things tend to appear in proportion to the number of players, so they don't affect the order of magnitude.
One further factor, however, is that when lots of players cluster together, they bump into one another much more frequently than they otherwise would, or if there weren't so many players. The same argument applies if lots of people are using large area of effect weapons that hit more people than normal.
So I'm going to go one step further and suggest that the server load experienced is of O(n^3) (using Big-O notation). Would any of the devs care to provide logs of the server load and system player count over the course of an escalating fleet battle?
Incidentally, factorials and exponentials are quite closely related, by Stirling's Formula.
------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking |
prsr
Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.06.27 15:33:00 -
[157]
Edited by: prsr on 27/06/2007 15:38:44
Originally by: Stein Voorhees What you are looking at is a fundamental limitation of Blade servers. Despite all of the good things about them, they are limited to a fixed amount of CPU and a fixed amount of memory. This means they have a finite amount of processing power. Put in a massive fleet fight and you will overwhelm the blade.
I'm not sure why this is limited to blade servers... All pc servers have the limitations you mention.
Originally by: Stein Voorhees Modern servers these days can have a hige number of Logical servers within them.
Old servers can do this as well, virtualization is a software thing, has nothing to do with hardware.
I do think virtualization is one solution to CCP's scalability problems and with some tinkering will allow them to move solar systems to better suited nodes for big fights without waiting for downtime. But, their main problem remains, the maximum number of CPU's handling a solar system is still 1, that is the bottleneck in fleetfights and CCP hasn't shown any sign of even working on the single biggest source of ZOMGWTFLAG!!! petitions.
The best result CCP can get with virtualization is moving solar systems to other CPU's without waiting for downtime. They would have to run every single system in a virtual machine and move the virtual machines around on their physical servers with some load balancing scripts.
CCP put JV1V on a dedicated node for the biggest fight that EVE has ever seen and eventually never happened. The node couldn't take it, even though JV1V was on a high-powered system like Jita is as well. No CPU in existence at the time (or now, or in 6 months) would've been able to make it happen.
If CCP wants to improve EVE they should get a team of coders to focus on nothing else but scalability of the solarsystems, find a way to introduce useful multithreading on the serverside. Then they will actually be able to boast about big fights without making themselves look like a fool in interviews when they refer to JV1V as anything but a fiasco that left hundreds of players fuming at their incompetence and broken promises.
I would REALLY REALLY REALLY like CCP to tell us what they are going to do about the biggest performance bottleneck in this game. Because the bottleneck has been there for years and has been causing issues for their playerbase just as long. -- .sig apathy ftw |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.27 15:45:00 -
[158]
Originally by: prsr
If CCP wants to improve EVE they should get a team of coders to focus on nothing else but scalability of the solarsystems, find a way to introduce useful multithreading on the serverside. Then they will actually be able to boast about big fights without making themselves look like a fool in interviews when they refer to JV1V as anything but a fiasco that left hundreds of players fuming at their incompetence and broken promises.
I would REALLY REALLY REALLY like CCP to tell us what they are going to do about the biggest performance bottleneck in this game. Because the bottleneck has been there for years and has been causing issues for their playerbase just as long.
They do already use a multithreading to a certain extent, via Stackless Python (Linkage). Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie IBTL! IBDS! IBTC! 1st in a BoB Post! And other such forum tom-foolery. |
prsr
Gallente JuBa Corp Vigilance Infinitas
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Posted - 2007.06.27 16:03:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Tarminic
They do already use a multithreading to a certain extent, via Stackless Python
Stackless python allows for it. That doesn't mean CCP uses it. If they would be using it, howcome they can't get a quad xeon box with 16GB ram to handle Jita properly? Or a similar system to handle 200 vs 200 properly?
I readily admit I don't know the specifics of the serverside code but i'd really be surprised if a system like the one i mentioned couldn't handle Jita if the servercode made use of all the cpu cores that people can cram into one pc nowadays. -- .sig apathy ftw |
Toyal Wiulaz
Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 16:18:00 -
[160]
LOL at CCP.
Saw all the flame and the troll in that topic? linky
I tell you CCP, the end in near for you if you dont fix your broken game. Keep trying to subscibe new players because you'll need it when all the older leave it. 33k player in the server you will not see anymore!
Oh I forgot, we luve you bob, keep going you gonna win Eve with your pets and hoes! ----------------------------------------- I speak QC tabarnak! QC 4tw! :) |
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ElCholo
Minmatar FarCry Inc Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 16:39:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Nadjer
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/06/2007 01:35:07
Originally by: Nadjer Forgive me if this has been said before as i'm fairly new but, wouldn't it alliate the problem if when you got say more than 200-300 people in a system you got transferred to a dedicated server to handle the load. This would involve pause in play for anyone in the system and people comming in would get a slight delay maybe but i'd rather suffer a 30 second wait that have to play through a slideshow.
If there's a 2 minute wait just just to take care of player actions in a 400-500 player situation with a RAMdrive can you imagine trying to send EVERYTHING across a network line that's signficantly slower and into another server? THAT would be rediculous.
Not to mention other difficulties "many many MANY disconnects like when everyone used to log in at once after a major patch" that would arise. And creating that can handle an immense undertaking like transfering all this info and getting everything started again in a new server.
I'm sure CCP said they had done this for several large battle at one of their conventions. All it would really take is a flash of everyones position, health and munitions which is basically a stack of co-ordinates, EVERYTHING is a relatively small amount of data to transmit between servers. The recieving server would already have the system in question loaded and then you are switched to it. I can't see it being that much of a nightmare.
The problem with nodes is they have several systems to deal with at once. If there was a server for each system there would be no problem but you'd need several aircraft hangers and an army of tech support to run that lol.
actually what CCP did is (I believe it was for the JV1V fight) they took SISI offline and configured it similar to Jita and used that as the system node for the fight in question, I believe I saw 1000+ in local that day.
The holdup on huge fleet battles is the way EVE is written. It does not have the ability to span 1 system over multiple nodes. All it can do is host 1+ systems / node.
Maybe someone wanna start work on Eve2 soon eh? Then we may see 1000 ship battles.
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Andrachim Tar'nar
The first genesis
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Posted - 2007.06.27 16:47:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Andrachim Tar''nar on 27/06/2007 16:51:56 Hmm, so you were all shooting stuff (pos?) for quite a bit of time before the engagement too place right ? If not disregard what I am saying next.
When I am shooting stuff for extended periods of time, like a pos, station etc after like... 30 minutes my client really gets problems with his caching / memory stuff. When I try to load the market then or do some other non-cached thing, it takes up to a few minutes and I am frozen.
Now it could be that this is only because my pc sucks or that this was a memory problem with the client that might be fixed by now, but I know this was effecting quite a few m8's of mine, some even crashing because of it. And thinking I'd have to warp into a fight, after shooting at a pos for say one hour, would most likely result in the same thing you have described. Helpless frozeness and desyncness, which might also explain why the enemy had lag ( server ) but you had those frozen / desync problems ( client ).
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Royaldo
Gallente KVA Noble Inc.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 16:59:00 -
[163]
this new lagg, whatever, isnt just in fleet battles. been running group lvl4 since rev 2, and its been real messy.
jumping through a gate causes me to lagg for 10-15 sec's on every single gate. clicking peoples info, clicking corp info = 10-20 sec's lagg. and by lagg i mean everything freezes. click someones icon(so face shows in local) = 5-10 sec's of lagg. drones returning = 2-5 sec's lagg. undocking = anything from 5-10 sec's up to 30 sec's.
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titanstory
FRENCH NAVY Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 17:03:00 -
[164]
Edited by: titanstory on 27/06/2007 17:04:03 how its possible to fly 6000km whith an mwd not active ? no warp possible. its not a lag its desynchro. i've doing some big battlefleet before revelation 2 and never, never i've doing 6000km.
and btw do you want vid where you see me bubble an ferox whith a 15/20 gang members and i'm desynchro again.... just whith 20 in local, WTF CCP ? what its the probleme plz ? fix it ...
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Gabriel Karade
Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.27 17:05:00 -
[165]
Bummer. I remember great fleet fights in FoE with 70+ per side, full turrets & effects, and even (shock horror), sound enabled.
Times change I suppose ----------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
StarLite
Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.27 18:12:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Bummer. I remember great fleet fights in FoE with 70+ per side, full turrets & effects, and even (shock horror), sound enabled.
Times change I suppose
70 vs 70 is doable quite well in rev II, just as long the node isn't too stressed out already. But 350 people on 1 grid shooting eachother is too much for the poor servers, it has always been tho.
The *only* solution is to find an efficient way to evenly distribute the load over all nodes in the cluster, regardless of player location or interaction. But TBH thats an almost imposible task, in big battles theres tens of GB's of data being handled per second, you cannot distribute that amount over multiple physical machines without creating some huge bottlenecks. _______________________________________________________________________
This sig is guarded by SigGuard(c) |
Toyal Wiulaz
Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.27 21:36:00 -
[167]
/bump
I'm gonna bump this till we have an answer from CCP.
I'm lucky, i'm paying 40 buck/month for a great humor show!
Keep it up CCP! ----------------------------------------- I speak QC tabarnak! QC 4tw! :) |
Zerg Defiler
Zerg Hive
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Posted - 2007.06.27 22:19:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Zerg Defiler on 27/06/2007 22:20:37
Originally by: StarLite 350 people on 1 grid shooting eachother
nah, shooting only 1 side, others looked at the frozen game, and u/all pplz know it //and also there is a difference between frozen games and lags
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La FemmeFatal
Amarr Exiled.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 22:22:00 -
[169]
CCP wake up and listen to us for once. do something about the fleet fights and the god damm lag. i am sick to death of dying time after time due to lag and then for you guys to say "Lag? what lag?" after we pettition. Its there! you know it we know it, stop playing us for fools and do somthing about it.
I pay my subscription so i can play the game as intended and advertised by yourselves. You have known about the extreme lag and for years now. why and how it happens. I and we can all can sign to the fact no other online game or player would put up with this bull. you have known about it and yet say in response to pettitions that you cant help as your own logs cant varify it. yet you know exactly what we are talking about and that 95% of the time we are correct and we have lost countless millions because you wont actually do what is needed to correct it. because of that we continue to lose out. this simply is not fair. I do not pay good money i worked hard for just so i can see a black screen and end up in foul temper. A game is supposed to calm and relax us. not do the exact oppisite.
You should worry about the legal issues, as playing the game is not as you advertise it to be and so it is false and misleading! simply because no one can play the game as intended or advertised when u have more than 50 people in system. heck when there is some fleet action with 200 ships all u do is warp somewhere and after 2-5 minutes the black screen goes you find yourself in a pod. its become part of the bloody game feature it happens so often!
this is not the EVE i wanted to join and play.
You should have prioritised and focused more on the players well being and the standered of the gamming experiance and not so much on the things that could bring you extra income.
I like the game and it could be so much better without the goddame lag.
You must understand how much this loses your player base. I myself tell others and friends not to even bother as the lag will just kill them. your not doing yourself any favours.
with all the technology we have at our fingertips and the way other online games cope and adapt surely you can do somthing about it.
now i leave it in your hands to do the right thing!! spend some freaking money and put your customer 1st!!
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Baline Aegis
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.27 23:14:00 -
[170]
Some points the number of pilots as the problem. I agree 250 pilots hammering a tower is stressy for the node server(s), and adding 100 more can crash it. But why smaller combat fleets desync SINCE rev 2 ? Even while travelling ? Rev 2 has broken something. This is the problem. AFAIK, we have already fought in massive battles. Laggy to hell, but no desync. No need to disconnect. I've read "we're mostly english, we can wait on the queue". Ok. But on each "desync" we had, the solution was to disconnect/reconnect. After having waited for dozens of minutes (in nearly empty systems), nothing happened. And after a 30 seconds disco/reco, tadaaaa, no lag !
Please, don't speak about LAG. It's not lag. I've fought in Venal, Tribute, Curse, Wicked Creek, Immensea, Feythabolis. In small gangs, big gangs, huge gangs. I've seen 100vs100 fights with 1 or 2 secs lag for both parts. I've seen 30 vs 30 with lag as hell. I KNOW what is lag. I know this phaenomena is NOT. I don't know if a jump portal is something that can provoke this event.
I hereby ask a dev to come in his Polaris and observe. It happens frequently. Take a look, gang with us if needed. Gang with bob, with goons, with Southern Coalition, with Angels. Take a look, observe, take the problem into consideration. Give us tools to monitor this and report back so that your devs can work on it.
WE WANT GOOD PEW PEW and fair victories (or defeat)
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Chelone
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Posted - 2007.06.28 00:13:00 -
[171]
The negative attitude and screaming doesn't help. The person who said the problem was geometric is correct. If you have 100 people in system, 100 people need info on 100 people (more or less), and then 100*100 = 10000 info packets flying around. 1000 people in system, 1000*1000 = 1 million info packets flying around. Oversimplified, but illustrative of the problem.
CCP COULD most likely upgrade the servers AGAIN, considering they can spend 11 million dollars on a TV studio. However, ultimately I don't think that would be enough. They also need to reduce/optimize what is being sent in those 1 Million info packets, the timing of how they are sent, or even have the possibility of some kind of simplified, "Large Fleet Combat Mode" which would be enabled when fleets get too large for the normal game mode to handle. Then irrelevant communication/graphics/etc could be suspended for the duration of the battle. Not optimal, but if it would allow things like 1000 or 5000 ship battles, I think it could be a very good thing.
Major rewrites? Undoubtedly. Necessary? I think so. What good is a space combat game with 30,000 simultaneous users, when you can't have a battle with even 1% of them at a time?
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Namingway
Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters
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Posted - 2007.06.28 01:24:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Richard Aiel So its an issue of milking ppl of their money till they find out they cant do the fleet battles cause the servers are made of paper mache?
I'm going to let you in on alittle secret:
Not everyone who plays EVE wants to take part in massive blob warfare.
Originally by: CCP kieron If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
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Toyal Wiulaz
Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.28 01:40:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Namingway
Originally by: Richard Aiel So its an issue of milking ppl of their money till they find out they cant do the fleet battles cause the servers are made of paper mache?
I'm going to let you in on alittle secret:
Not everyone who plays EVE wants to take part in massive blob warfare.
LOL get out. we are talking about blob and massive desync. You didnt read all the thread did you?
here a quote for you:
Originally by: Baline Some points the number of pilots as the problem. I agree 250 pilots hammering a tower is stressy for the node server(s), and adding 100 more can crash it. But why smaller combat fleets desync SINCE rev 2 ? Even while travelling ? Rev 2 has broken something. This is the problem. AFAIK, we have already fought in massive battles. Laggy to hell, but no desync. No need to disconnect. I've read "we're mostly english, we can wait on the queue". Ok. But on each "desync" we had, the solution was to disconnect/reconnect. After having waited for dozens of minutes (in nearly empty systems), nothing happened. And after a 30 seconds disco/reco, tadaaaa, no lag !
Please, don't speak about LAG. It's not lag. I've fought in Venal, Tribute, Curse, Wicked Creek, Immensea, Feythabolis. In small gangs, big gangs, huge gangs. I've seen 100vs100 fights with 1 or 2 secs lag for both parts. I've seen 30 vs 30 with lag as hell. I KNOW what is lag. I know this phaenomena is NOT. I don't know if a jump portal is something that can provoke this event.
I hereby ask a dev to come in his Polaris and observe. It happens frequently. Take a look, gang with us if needed. Gang with bob, with goons, with Southern Coalition, with Angels. Take a look, observe, take the problem into consideration. Give us tools to monitor this and report back so that your devs can work on it.
WE WANT GOOD PEW PEW and fair victories (or defeat)
there you go my friend ----------------------------------------- I speak QC tabarnak! QC 4tw! :) |
Stahlregen
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.28 07:14:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Toyal Wiulaz
Originally by: Namingway
Originally by: Richard Aiel So its an issue of milking ppl of their money till they find out they cant do the fleet battles cause the servers are made of paper mache?
I'm going to let you in on alittle secret:
Not everyone who plays EVE wants to take part in massive blob warfare.
LOL get out. we are talking about blob and massive desync. You didnt read all the thread did you?
here a quote for you:
Originally by: Baline Some points the number of pilots as the problem. I agree 250 pilots hammering a tower is stressy for the node server(s), and adding 100 more can crash it. But why smaller combat fleets desync SINCE rev 2 ? Even while travelling ? Rev 2 has broken something. This is the problem. AFAIK, we have already fought in massive battles. Laggy to hell, but no desync. No need to disconnect. I've read "we're mostly english, we can wait on the queue". Ok. But on each "desync" we had, the solution was to disconnect/reconnect. After having waited for dozens of minutes (in nearly empty systems), nothing happened. And after a 30 seconds disco/reco, tadaaaa, no lag !
Please, don't speak about LAG. It's not lag. I've fought in Venal, Tribute, Curse, Wicked Creek, Immensea, Feythabolis. In small gangs, big gangs, huge gangs. I've seen 100vs100 fights with 1 or 2 secs lag for both parts. I've seen 30 vs 30 with lag as hell. I KNOW what is lag. I know this phaenomena is NOT. I don't know if a jump portal is something that can provoke this event.
I hereby ask a dev to come in his Polaris and observe. It happens frequently. Take a look, gang with us if needed. Gang with bob, with goons, with Southern Coalition, with Angels. Take a look, observe, take the problem into consideration. Give us tools to monitor this and report back so that your devs can work on it.
WE WANT GOOD PEW PEW and fair victories (or defeat)
there you go my friend
He's been trolling since page 1 and the difference between lag and the desync has been explained to him numerous times. He's just trying to be annoying, ignore him/
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MotherMoon
Minmatar Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.06.28 07:18:00 -
[175]
Originally by: prsr Edited by: prsr on 27/06/2007 15:47:32 Edited by: prsr on 27/06/2007 15:38:44
Originally by: Stein Voorhees What you are looking at is a fundamental limitation of Blade servers. Despite all of the good things about them, they are limited to a fixed amount of CPU and a fixed amount of memory. This means they have a finite amount of processing power. Put in a massive fleet fight and you will overwhelm the blade.
I'm not sure why this is limited to blade servers... All pc servers have the limitations you mention.
Originally by: Stein Voorhees Modern servers these days can have a hige number of Logical servers within them.
Old servers can do this as well, virtualization is a software thing, has nothing to do with hardware.
I do think virtualization is one solution to CCP's scalability problems and with some tinkering will allow them to move solar systems to better suited nodes for big fights without waiting for downtime. They would have to run every single system in a virtual machine and move the virtual machines around on their physical servers with some load balancing scripts.
But, their main problem remains, the maximum number of CPU's handling a solar system is still 1, that is the bottleneck in fleetfights and CCP hasn't shown any sign of even working on the single biggest source of ZOMGWTFLAG!!! petitions.
If CCP wants to improve EVE they should get a team of coders to focus on nothing else but scalability of the solarsystems, have them find a way to introduce useful multithreading on the serverside or any gimmick at all that would let a server instance use more then one CPU. Then they will actually be able to boast about big fights without making themselves look like a fool in interviews when they refer to JV1V as anything but a fiasco that left hundreds of players fuming at their incompetence and broken promises.
CCP put JV1V on a dedicated node for the biggest fight that EVE has ever seen and eventually never happened. The node couldn't take it, even though JV1V was on a high-powered system like Jita is as well. No CPU in existence at the time (or now, or in 6 months) would've been able to make it happen.
I would REALLY REALLY REALLY like CCP to tell us what they are going to do about the biggest performance bottleneck in this game. Because the bottleneck has been there for years and has been causing issues for their playerbase just as long. I've never heard any of the devs mention they were working on this specific issue, just vague "need for speed" initiatives that do feck-all for lag in fleet fights. Remember how they changed gangs because gang bonus calculations were so hard to keep accurate when a fleet jumps to another system? I have worse lag then ever when everybody is uncloaking and aligning, it has seriously never been worse then it is now and they dare calling it an optimalization.
STOP OPTIMIZING CODE AND START TACKLING THE REAL ISSUES IN YOUR ARCHITECTURE PLS CCP. ktnxbye.
Can anyone tell i lost 3 dictors in one evening because of lag?
they allready said they know it's python
and they have said they are making trinity 2.0 for rev 3
meaning you'll have to download the game over again
becuase it won't be a patch
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.06.28 07:44:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Chelone The person who said the problem was geometric is correct. If you have 100 people in system, 100 people need info on 100 people (more or less), and then 100*100 = 10000 info packets flying around. 1000 people in system, 1000*1000 = 1 million info packets flying around. Oversimplified, but illustrative of the problem.
The problems exists only if you choose such basic algorithms. 100 people don't need info on 100 other people, they only need info on the grid status and actually even more, they only need info of the change in the grid status.
The grid status is for all players there the same and you don't need different data for all different players.
I don't know the algo's which Eve are using but good ones would need MUCH less time than O(n^2), my guess would be something around O(n*log n) though I cannot prove this, it is just a guess.
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Richard Aiel
Caldari MicroFunks
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Posted - 2007.06.28 07:53:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Richard Aiel on 28/06/2007 07:53:18
Originally by: Namingway
I'm going to let you in on alittle secret:
Not everyone who plays EVE wants to take part in massive blob warfare.
I'm going to let you in on alittle secret: Blob (or fleet to non trolls) is what this thread is about >.< Why are you trolling a thread about a subject you obviously dont care about??
Originally by: Stein Voorhees What you are looking at is a fundamental limitation of Blade servers. Despite all of the good things about them, they are limited to a fixed amount of CPU and a fixed amount of memory. This means they have a finite amount of processing power. Put in a massive fleet fight and you will overwhelm the blade.
Modern servers these days can have a hige number of Logical servers within them. To all intents and purposes, these are individual servers held within one (or more) physical boxes. Resources can then be dynamicaly switched between them. For example, all servers are running with 0.1 of a CPU and 500mb of RAM. When the system detects these resources are not enough on a particular server it can automaticaly direct spare capacity to the server that needs it. This allows systems to dynamicaly react to demand at an OS level allowing a very versatile and reactive overall system.
If CCP ever want to look at it then drop me a line .
Does this mean that with the current hardware / setup, fleet warfare will never work?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Engage brain before typing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
SFShootme
The Carebear Stare
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Posted - 2007.06.28 09:48:00 -
[178]
Edited by: SFShootme on 28/06/2007 09:48:40
Originally by: Pelf Matagraph
Originally by: SFShootme
Originally by: Pelf Matagraph
As an example:
Quake III, which did not synch all clients has a low kill veracity. If you have high latency you automatically lose.
Alternatively:
Command and Conquer has a high kill veracity because all clients are 100% synced at all times.
(As a note there was a cvar in the Quake III server setup that would force full sync. It resulted in a slideshow as soon as a high latency client connected)
CCP probably wants the kill veracity to be high, thus they do not desynch slower players in battles and a slideshow ensues.
Regarding cluster issues
The fact of the matter is this: You can throw faster hardware at any problem and never solve the problem. There are so many intervening factors in what CCP is doing with their cluster that more hardware, while perhaps needed, will not make the problem go away. High latency and packet loss are probably the real demons.
This is wrong, eve does not wait for clients to sync, it just sends data packets to all clients and does not wait for a response, if the client can not keep up with the data send by the server it is their loss.
Jita, is running on a seperate server (one of the fastest in the world) and is a case on it's own, and should not be used as a reference.
-
Well if I am wrong, then EVE has a low kill veracity and fleet battles are a trip to Vegas.
Good luck.
No, what i'm saying is that it is actually a server sided problem, cpu overload if you wish to call it that. The servers can simpely not keep up with the tremendoes amount of data that is has to generate, i think there has been a dev blog about this somewhere. The only logical reason for ccp is to upgrade their coding or trow more hardware at the problem.
- Tho shall give Life, for Life. |
Ambre Blanche
ICE is Coming to EVE Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.28 09:59:00 -
[179]
Originally by: SFShootme
No, what i'm saying is that it is actually a server sided problem, cpu overload if you wish to call it that. The servers can simpely not keep up with the tremendoes amount of data that is has to generate, i think there has been a dev blog about this somewhere. The only logical reason for ccp is to upgrade their coding or trow more hardware at the problem.
If I started to count the number of times CCP told us in the past they just "upgraded" their hardware to make the game run faster you will be amazed. We are still no seeing any improvement and as a matter of facts, since the last patch is worse than ever. Time for less lies maybe ?
Ambre.
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Nomore Telindus
Gallente Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
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Posted - 2007.06.28 10:28:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Stein Voorhees What you are looking at is a fundamental limitation of Blade servers. Despite all of the good things about them, they are limited to a fixed amount of CPU and a fixed amount of memory. This means they have a finite amount of processing power. Put in a massive fleet fight and you will overwhelm the blade.
Modern servers these days can have a hige number of Logical servers within them. To all intents and purposes, these are individual servers held within one (or more) physical boxes. Resources can then be dynamicaly switched between them. For example, all servers are running with 0.1 of a CPU and 500mb of RAM. When the system detects these resources are not enough on a particular server it can automaticaly direct spare capacity to the server that needs it. This allows systems to dynamicaly react to demand at an OS level allowing a very versatile and reactive overall system.
If CCP ever want to look at it then drop me a line .
Please keep in mind, that EVE uses stackless python and it's green (micro) threads. These threads are all runs in one CPU (by design limitation), therefore a solarsystem cannot use more than one CPU. And the real problem is: even the most advanced virtual server technology are unable to bound two CPU to one (from a python program's view), hence a virtual server is almost unusable to solve the CPU limitation problem. To utilize the power of the multiple CPUs of today's computers, EVE needs a COMPLETE rewrite from SCRATCH. (I'm afraid this will never happen)
More info: An article about game programming in stackless python
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:00:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Nomore Telindus
Originally by: Stein Voorhees What you are looking at is a fundamental limitation of Blade servers. Despite all of the good things about them, they are limited to a fixed amount of CPU and a fixed amount of memory. This means they have a finite amount of processing power. Put in a massive fleet fight and you will overwhelm the blade.
Modern servers these days can have a hige number of Logical servers within them. To all intents and purposes, these are individual servers held within one (or more) physical boxes. Resources can then be dynamicaly switched between them. For example, all servers are running with 0.1 of a CPU and 500mb of RAM. When the system detects these resources are not enough on a particular server it can automaticaly direct spare capacity to the server that needs it. This allows systems to dynamicaly react to demand at an OS level allowing a very versatile and reactive overall system.
If CCP ever want to look at it then drop me a line .
Please keep in mind, that EVE uses stackless python and it's green (micro) threads. These threads are all runs in one CPU (by design limitation), therefore a solarsystem cannot use more than one CPU. And the real problem is: even the most advanced virtual server technology are unable to bound two CPU to one (from a python program's view), hence a virtual server is almost unusable to solve the CPU limitation problem. To utilize the power of the multiple CPUs of today's computers, EVE needs a COMPLETE rewrite from SCRATCH. (I'm afraid this will never happen)
More info: An article about game programming in stackless python
True. Unless each server handles x numbers of players rather than x number of nodes, there will always be bottlenecks. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:04:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Scavok
Originally by: DubanFP
Originally by: Scavok Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:48:02 Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:47:31 Battles in wwiiol are similar in complexity and scale. Their solution was the "64 limit" where people only received updates for 64 other players. Players were never invisible to each other, if you had someone loaded, they had you loaded. As CRS (devs of wwiiol) improved their hardware and code, they increased the player limit. There is obviously a downside to this, but I think it would be a better solution than hardcoding a player limit into the game.
That would NEVER work in eve. In fleets people are called primaries, now if you didn't know who had which people loaded then you would NEVER be able to keep the battle organized.
Yeah, it would be tough and tactics would need to change, but sometimes I think it would be better than what we have currently. Although it would have to be a lot higher than 64 as that would be a little nuts.
It seems that properly implemented this idea is made of win. -
You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:06:00 -
[183]
So limit it to hawt squad on squad action only?
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:34:00 -
[184]
got to love it how so many people in the thread thing ccp can click there fingers and fix the lag problem in 300 man fleet battles.....
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Gabriel Karade
Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:37:00 -
[185]
Originally by: StarLite
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Bummer. I remember great fleet fights in FoE with 70+ per side, full turrets & effects, and even (shock horror), sound enabled.
Times change I suppose
70 vs 70 is doable quite well in rev II, just as long the node isn't too stressed out already.
Yeah but is that with everything on the client switched off - stripped to bare essentials? Because the 70 vs 70's at the turn of Exodus were fine with everything on, sounds, turret fire, the works... ----------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Bosjathfort
Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:49:00 -
[186]
I guess:
It seems that EVE is programmed on a static system. For example I assume there is a server group which consists of 64 CPU cores for hosting the entire EVE universe, and the EVE universe is divided into 8 divisions. So I assume CCP assigns 8 CPU cores for each division at the beginning.
After every downtime, the EVE hosting server might produce a statistic sheet with the average amount of pilots per division during the passed 23 hours. Based on that statistic sheet, CCP will re-organize the process power ōmanuallyö a bit, e.g. reduce 1 CPU from division1 and add it to division2 etc.
However, we (players) move almost all the time, jumping around from one system to another. When you gather up a fleet of 300 players and entering anther division which has 500 players already, the process power assigned to that division is obviously not enough to handle 800 players, therefore you have this ōlagö issue.
Currently, it seems that there is only one way to relocate the process power, and it requires to shutdown the server first (DT / node crash). CCP employees will have to relocate the process power manually, which is why I said EVE is programmed on a static system.
There are two possible solutions that I can imagine:
1: Re-program EVE base on a dynamic system, which means that the process power will be relocated automatically without reboot / shutdown the server up on needs.
2: We as customers will have to donate a lot of RL money to CCP, so they will be able to buy another 10000000 hamsters and cages. \\(^O^ )// o/ \o !!null |
Cpt Branko
Guardian Heroes
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:51:00 -
[187]
You guess and assume wrong ;)
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:53:00 -
[188]
encourage ISK farmers to shift to the GTC system ( extra funds can be used and its legal)
***** down on ISK farmers running missions etc
ongoing technology CCP uses pretty quickly they are adding more hardware atm so its an ongoing process we can at least have 500 withiout a node crash ( 2 years ago 200 would have cuased it) so yes imrpovements are being made
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O'Ran
BloodStorm Elite Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:54:00 -
[189]
you know if CCP dont have a immediate fix or answer - they should still reply with things they are going to try and do. Honestly this isnt very good customer relations. They should atleast say SOMETHING on a fix - or how they are going to tackle it. I bet alot of people feel they dont care.... which i know isnt the case.
-----
My views do not represent the views of my Corporation or Alliance.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:58:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Scavok
Originally by: DubanFP
Originally by: Scavok Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:48:02 Edited by: Scavok on 27/06/2007 12:47:31 Battles in wwiiol are similar in complexity and scale. Their solution was the "64 limit" where people only received updates for 64 other players. Players were never invisible to each other, if you had someone loaded, they had you loaded. As CRS (devs of wwiiol) improved their hardware and code, they increased the player limit. There is obviously a downside to this, but I think it would be a better solution than hardcoding a player limit into the game.
That would NEVER work in eve. In fleets people are called primaries, now if you didn't know who had which people loaded then you would NEVER be able to keep the battle organized.
Yeah, it would be tough and tactics would need to change, but sometimes I think it would be better than what we have currently. Although it would have to be a lot higher than 64 as that would be a little nuts.
It seems that properly implemented this idea is made of win.
You could vastly reduce the size of grids to achieve a similar effect, though this would have the character of nerfing snipers.
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.06.28 12:00:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Chelone The person who said the problem was geometric is correct. If you have 100 people in system, 100 people need info on 100 people (more or less), and then 100*100 = 10000 info packets flying around. 1000 people in system, 1000*1000 = 1 million info packets flying around. Oversimplified, but illustrative of the problem.
The problems exists only if you choose such basic algorithms. 100 people don't need info on 100 other people, they only need info on the grid status and actually even more, they only need info of the change in the grid status.
The grid status is for all players there the same and you don't need different data for all different players.
I don't know the algo's which Eve are using but good ones would need MUCH less time than O(n^2), my guess would be something around O(n*log n) though I cannot prove this, it is just a guess.
Think about it, there has to be information about all other people available to you: - if you have effects on, you need to see them shield boosting etc. - if you have effects off, you still need to see stuff like them deploying drones, turning around, emitting smoke due to hull damage etc.
This can't be solved properly if the above functionality is kept as it is now. Perhaps there should be a "fleet" display mode where all graphics are off except those little icons and boxes on the screen (and perhaps just the ship hulls, no drones) and the server should not need to send so much data around.
this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
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Cpt Branko
Guardian Heroes
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Posted - 2007.06.28 12:01:00 -
[192]
Originally by: O'Ran They should atleast say SOMETHING on a fix - or how they are going to tackle it.
When you're asked to do stuff that you don't exactly know how to do, because you can't find it in a textbook, and it was never done before on that scale, you then, erm, don't know how you're going to tackle it. Because, if you knew how exactly to tackle it, it would've been easy.
"We're drinking beer and trying to figure out a solution" would be completely fine for me.
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James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.06.28 12:04:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: O'Ran They should atleast say SOMETHING on a fix - or how they are going to tackle it.
When you're asked to do stuff that you don't exactly know how to do, because you can't find it in a textbook, and it was never done before on that scale, you then, erm, don't know how you're going to tackle it. Because, if you knew how exactly to tackle it, it would've been easy.
"We're drinking beer and trying to figure out a solution" would be completely fine for me.
Open Source Client. Use Multiplicity and declare an open source client program where we get a version we can only use with Multiplicity to tool around with. I for one am extremely curious to rip apart some of that code since I want to know how right or wrong I am about where a lot of client side lag comes from.
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Theladder
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Posted - 2007.06.28 12:10:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Theladder on 28/06/2007 12:10:37 ...
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Bosjathfort
Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.06.28 12:16:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Cpt Branko You guess and assume wrong ;)
Wanna share yours :D? Kinda interested in eve's architecture \\(^O^ )// o/ \o !!null |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.06.28 12:21:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Nomore Telindus
Originally by: Stein Voorhees What you are looking at is a fundamental limitation of Blade servers. Despite all of the good things about them, they are limited to a fixed amount of CPU and a fixed amount of memory. This means they have a finite amount of processing power. Put in a massive fleet fight and you will overwhelm the blade.
Modern servers these days can have a hige number of Logical servers within them. To all intents and purposes, these are individual servers held within one (or more) physical boxes. Resources can then be dynamicaly switched between them. For example, all servers are running with 0.1 of a CPU and 500mb of RAM. When the system detects these resources are not enough on a particular server it can automaticaly direct spare capacity to the server that needs it. This allows systems to dynamicaly react to demand at an OS level allowing a very versatile and reactive overall system.
If CCP ever want to look at it then drop me a line .
Please keep in mind, that EVE uses stackless python and it's green (micro) threads. These threads are all runs in one CPU (by design limitation), therefore a solarsystem cannot use more than one CPU. And the real problem is: even the most advanced virtual server technology are unable to bound two CPU to one (from a python program's view), hence a virtual server is almost unusable to solve the CPU limitation problem. To utilize the power of the multiple CPUs of today's computers, EVE needs a COMPLETE rewrite from SCRATCH. (I'm afraid this will never happen)
More info: An article about game programming in stackless python
aahhh python!! ahhhh Me runs in circles screaming (experience of developing an MMO server with python caused some psicological damage)
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.06.28 12:24:00 -
[197]
Well problem coudl be aleviated with a game feature.
Make that ships sensors can only load up one target per second. So the server tries only to send one ship each time to every one. Then it will be easier to escalate and distribute the load among all players equaly. That on the "load" target .. because the feel is that the lag happens moslty when loadign something "new to overview."
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
The Proff
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Posted - 2007.06.28 12:36:00 -
[198]
CCP claim they want to make this the best game they can
Yet they are spending 7 million dollars on marketing to get MORE !!! subscribers. They want to reach 300k subscribers by the end of the year ..... things are going to get ALOT worse
If eve ever wants to evolve, the client needs a recode, its old and its just not performing. A new client will mean they can get their 300k subscribers whilst keeping them all happy and lag free hopefully.
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Gavin Darklighter
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Posted - 2007.06.28 12:46:00 -
[199]
An extra 50-100k subscribers in empire shouldnt really add much to fleet warfare lag. I'd hate to be running missions with 200 or more other people in local though.
If they can hit 300k players then they will have that much more money to spend on overhauling the code or upgrading the cluster.
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Eskalin
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.28 14:29:00 -
[200]
i'm a sad panda ccp wont answer it's customers and give us answers on what is being done to fix the broken fleet warfare.... i pay for fun and this isnt it the lack of a responce it just the cleveland steamer to top it off
If babies were not meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be hibachi sized.
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Cornucopian
Gallente Dutch Omega
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Posted - 2007.06.28 14:50:00 -
[201]
Originally by: The Proff CCP claim they want to make this the best game they can
Yet they are spending 7 million dollars on marketing to get MORE !!! subscribers. They want to reach 300k subscribers by the end of the year ..... things are going to get ALOT worse
If eve ever wants to evolve, the client needs a recode, its old and its just not performing. A new client will mean they can get their 300k subscribers whilst keeping them all happy and lag free hopefully.
Here's what went down when EVE TV was pitched to CCP by their contracted marketing firm, as an excellent proposition for a marketing avenue:
Marketing: "I know, lets have some news show with HAWT CHIX!!!! YEAH!!! HAWT CHIXXX!!!!! that should get us into the 15 y/o demographic: I mean everyone knows that gamers are 15, at BEST. HAWT CHIXXXXX. Here's your business case for HAWT CHIX CCP, now give me my 100k consultancy fee, you morons!!"
CCP: "uhm, can we charge them for it, so we get more PHAT LOOT?"
Marketing: "SUUUREEE, everyone will buy the program, every week, for $1.50, to watch people talk about a game they know nothing about. you know why? because we got HAWWWWWWT CHIXXXXX!!! woohoo!"
CCP: "okeydokey"
Markteing: "OMFGSCAMNOOB, lol....uhm....ahem... thank you for taking this obviously valuable additive to your worldwide marketing scheme. Do give us a call when you want throw away, uhm, ahem, when you want another valuable plan. You take care of those HAAWWWT CHIXX y'hear?!"
CCP: "Awesome! (yells over his shoulder) guys, enough already with coding the new client and getting the hardware working properly, we got a party tonight with our newest employees: TEH HAWWWT CHIXXX!!!"
Rest of the staff: "OMFG WOMEN!!!!"
<sigh> FFS..... REAL companies spend millions just to get to KNOW what their customers want from them.... yet CCP, who has boards filled with the most dedicated community clamoring for Less Lag, seems unable to even ANSWER them.
Is there a raspberry for business policy? Can we nominate CCP?
I seriously love eve, and all it has to offer, which is why this reply is so d*mn negative: because it KILLS me that CCP is dropping the ball...down a very deep well.....with alligators at the bottom.
(starts weeping)
as Hunter kressel once said about mac: "mac KILLS my inner child"
as to the current issues I would say: "CCP KILLS my inner child, but the game is so damn good, my grown up self keeps on playing it."
you win CCP..... don't reply, be the corporation you always aspired to be and give us the finger. you've earned it
----------------------------------------------- "CCP can't reply to Lag issues; our offices are currently experienceing desynch/lag issues. we are working on the problem." |
Arrs Grazznic
FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.28 14:51:00 -
[202]
Wrangler has posted here that this is a known issue and CCP are investigating it. Here is his short post:
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I know we're aware of it, but please submit petitions on it so we can get as much info as possible. And as always, make sure you read Easy steps to bugreporting.
Cheers, Arrs
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.06.28 14:53:00 -
[203]
Originally by: The Proff CCP claim they want to make this the best game they can
Yet they are spending 7 million dollars on marketing to get MORE !!! subscribers. They want to reach 300k subscribers by the end of the year ..... things are going to get ALOT worse
If eve ever wants to evolve, the client needs a recode, its old and its just not performing. A new client will mean they can get their 300k subscribers whilst keeping them all happy and lag free hopefully.
Having much more money pouring in to throw at the servers wouldn't help?
And all the lag problems are caused by the client? -
You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means |
Cornucopian
Gallente Dutch Omega
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Posted - 2007.06.28 15:03:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Arrs Grazznic Wrangler has posted here that this is a known issue and CCP are investigating it. Here is his short post:
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I know we're aware of it, but please submit petitions on it so we can get as much info as possible. And as always, make sure you read Easy steps to bugreporting.
Cheers, Arrs
Yes, very true.
I could give the same response after comitting a murder:
"Yes, I am aware of the current situation, please submit any information you have to me, so I can evaluate."
Such posts are a complete NON-argument, and are basically a stopgap to keep the community from whining about a very legitimate problem. which, I might add, is failing miserably. ----------------------------------------------- "CCP can't reply to Lag issues; our offices are currently experienceing desynch/lag issues. we are working on the problem." |
Zenst
Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.28 17:24:00 -
[205]
Issue is that side A will form up and side B will form up and eventualy meet. Usualy when A and B are at critical mass.
Its like getting a overloaded nuclear reactor and another and putting them together.
What can be done to reduce this system blobbing and thats the issue.
CCP have come up with some anti blob features but they only address grid based blobs, which is ironic as to get those you by default have a sytem blob and THAT is the crux of it as they all run on the same node.
Once you get this type of blob any crig based blob actions of introduced anti-blob factors are limited.
Remote ecm bursts and bombs are great if your having a capital fun fest but atm `delays` make for the ability to use them to remote rep people unreliable as they suffer from the same module delays as you. This reduces response times to the stage that the remote repair is no use and all you show is another big target.
Now I've been in many large fleet fights and had horrendoucs lag and the classic ew whole BS>POD before I even saw anything, which logs show was no lag (not that logs show there wasn't lag -= but hey - lets not go there).
HOW can you address this, well its hard but here are a few idea's that will help - if you think them thru.
1) ability to tempry disable jump gates - would add tactical manovering.
2) increase your sig radius a small percentage for every person that locks you - there fore if 100 peopel want to shoot you the last person will have a long long lock time due to interferance from all the other locks (help reduce the alpha effect and prolong battles).
3) A force session change button - akin to a force resync/refresh of client with setrver without havibng to relog or having to dock or jump out of the system to get the same effect. This needs to be limeted though to avoid silly people spamming said button to lag the node (same types that go ew lets load up with lots of usless bookmarks in my hold).
4) double HP's of HULL on all ships - why not - also helps balance sheild regen balance a lickle.
5) have a ingame channel were FC's of respective fleets can ask a GM to come watch - we know before when battles kick of, or atleast very close to and this will help as somebody who is independant from both sides can cut thru the mustard, see the facts and avoid all this luck-spin blame pointing when its effecting BOTH sides.
All that said I can apprecieate that unlike myself there seems to be alot of new people getting involved in fleet battles or large scale that for them is there first T2 ship and for all effect there first big battle were they experience the `Jita` effect. I can understand how they feel as we have all been there. Just most of BOB have been there and done that and worn out the Tee-Shirt so we deal with it better.
Personaly I'd like the whole concept of smaller gangs thesedays as big fleet battles realy rarely lean to realtime and more akin to postal-chess :(.
Of course there is the case were the two FC's can go - well were goona lag - fancy a match-up between the two fleets and everybody will get a fair fight.
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Nevada Tan
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Posted - 2007.06.28 18:21:00 -
[206]
Originally by: MotherMoon they allready said they know it's python
and they have said they are making trinity 2.0 for rev 3
meaning you'll have to download the game over again
becuase it won't be a patch
That is about the only thing which will fix this - a complete rewrite of the server & DB code into something more suitable to what EVE has become nowadays.
♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I have done a bad thing. |
Garek
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.06.28 18:25:00 -
[207]
Hey,
first of all I have to agree with the actual problems of Eve. Combat Tactics are impossible to do if you are not able to move fast and do the things right. This is for every player in any alliance the same problem. I can tell you I have lost many ships due to lag, desynch and abuse of the game. I think I lost few in real combat.
Devs should be talking with other MMO organisations to try to make the best of it. I have played WoW, Planetside and other MMO's. WOW cannot be compared to EVE as wow is instance based except for the large PVP battles infront of Ironforge and Orgrimar. When this happend on WoW the server lagged too, and battles where 300 against 300 so no worries.
I think Planetside would be a better source of information. There are battles than can run from 250 against 250 against 250 in the same grid without any lag or desync and guns firing from eveyside with all kind of aircav, tanks, infantry, cloacked etc etc.
Sharing information is good. Call SOE for some help; admitting you can't solve it on your own is not a defeat, doing nothing about it it your loss and ours too... Because I love this game. And for the rest you are doing fantastic work CCP ----------------------------------------------
Nothing... |
BCE 3AHRTO
Free Space Pilots aka Banderlogs Red Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.28 22:20:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Garek admitting you can't solve it on your own is not a defeat...
CCP? Admitting they have a problem? What's next, peace in the middle east? :)
But seriously, DESYNCH/lag is killing the game. I'm sticking to ratting until it's fixed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Robin Sherwood
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Posted - 2007.06.29 10:08:00 -
[209]
Huge fleet battles? WTF?!!!
Last night we started experiencing severe lag in a 30-ish man gang, almost alone in the system (1-2 hostiles) doing NOTHING, besides travelling. After several minutes we logged off and in 5 minutes more started logging back in.
I spent probably half in hour in "Entering game ..." message. When I finally loggied in, there were initially no chat windows, no local, no overview. In few minutes local appeared, showing 7 pilots. In few more minutes overview appeared.
I was 15km from a gate, attempted to approach gate and jump. It took three minutes for the ship to react to the approach command. Still seven people in local.
Then I decided to dock (NPC station). It took three minutes to initiate warp. I warped to the station. It took eleven (OMG!!11eleven) minutes from tow-in message tо actualy docking.
Local was at five.
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Nobues
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.29 10:14:00 -
[210]
god I remember a time were we had 900 people in local, there was lag, but wasnt enought to stop us from fighting it out, I think I made a few billion in loot along that day. But we are talking 2 or 3 years ago.. Try to pop 1/2 that money in local and you crash everything, I'm not talking about a node, I mean you crash eve all together.
I mean for real CCP do something other then remove somethings and add more powerful things in its place.
Stop looking at the how much is in the game and start looking at how much information is past, way to much of it, you cut 5% of the information sent to the client from the server and your cut 25% of the lag in eve.
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Zenst
Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.30 08:24:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Zenst on 30/06/2007 08:24:09 Opps missed the easiest fix to the equation:
remove local peeps from 0.0 -= if they talk - they show, else they dont show.
This would add alot more fun to 0.0 and will help avoid blobs and yeild top a more tactical game and force more combat se of scanning to not only track people but also find out how many hostiles are there. True scouting then beyond - glance at local.
Also when your lagging - typing in corp of gang - OMG LAG realy dosn;t help you. Actualy if you think about it it hinders you and the rest of your gang as thats more server/client communications into the equation.
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Gabriel Karade
Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.06.30 09:05:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Zenst Edited by: Zenst on 30/06/2007 08:24:09 Opps missed the easiest fix to the equation:
remove local peeps from 0.0 -= if they talk - they show, else they dont show.
This would add alot more fun to 0.0 and will help avoid blobs and yeild top a more tactical game and force more combat se of scanning to not only track people but also find out how many hostiles are there. True scouting then beyond - glance at local.
I agree, personally I don't see the fun in blobbing up to the point were you have two, 200 man ępowerballsĘ nuking one target at a time, just because 'scouting' involved counting the number portraits in local then calling in more pilots...
(Though the 'powerball' itself is more an issue of the ease at which you can group ships together on a grid courtesy of the gang warp function... perhaps CCP will realise that one day and do something about it)
----------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.02 14:26:00 -
[213]
You know I have been in big big battles before and yeah it was laggy and yeah sometimes I died because of it. I also have been in big big battles where it was laggy and I could cope with it. However this desynch **** is terrible. I have desynch twice in a 30 on 30ish battle. Desynch is so bad because you dont know you are desynching at the start and you have no idea what to do. Do I hit my armor rep? do I hit warp? I have no idea whats happening around me. Its beyond terrible, its shocking to the max.
CCP should put all future contents on hold and fix this. Make it playable again. Get the server right and everything else will fall into place.
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords
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Posted - 2007.07.02 14:34:00 -
[214]
Thing is, people just need to realise they don't need massive numbers to win battles... Just a carefully planned tactical advantage.
Take yesterday's battle for example, the battle started with 15 friendlies and 44 hostiles. Final count (KM wise) was 21 friendlies and 44 hostiles. The friendly fleet was split in to two gangs, each having their own set of primaries, and through advanced scouting and advanced fleet command by the two FCs, the friendly fleet only lost 8 ships total, while the hostile fleet lost 35 or so.
Yes, there was lag, but at least we didn't turn round and say 'they have 44, we need 50'... We carefully planned what we were going to do, scouted the hostile fleet, got positions and pilots names for targets, and coordinated a victory.
So next time your enemy has 150 ships, don't say 'we need 200', say 'we need 100 and good intel'. Makes it less laggy and way more fun!
Props to everyone that was involved in that battle last night anyway, it was a great fight!
Latest Video, Click Here!
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Xplained
Caldari Ticon Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.03 11:14:00 -
[215]
So many Expansions have passed and CCP still cant fix the fragging lag
Lag will kill this game, c'mon CCP get your finger out!
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kbullet
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.07.03 11:37:00 -
[216]
I can understand the lag issue isnt a simple problem to have a quick and painless solution. If it was such threads as this wouldnt exist. Though CCP did try to add more optimization on the REV 2.0 patch, there was a few fixes and improvement but i havent seen any better perfromance, if not it is getting worse, just recently, we tried to have a 140man fight, and the lag was unplayble! Nothing was happening for 10min, and alot of had to relog to get back client response.
I don't want to whine, ccp are good at what they do but cm'on you can do better! Aja Aja Fighting!
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Davos Breemer
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Posted - 2007.07.03 14:20:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Andrachim Tar'nar Edited by: Andrachim Tar''nar on 27/06/2007 17:12:46 Edited by: Andrachim Tar''nar on 27/06/2007 16:51:56 Hmm, so you were all shooting stuff (pos?) for quite a bit of time before the engagement too place right ? If not disregard what I am saying next.
When I am shooting stuff for extended periods of time, like a pos, station etc after like... 30 minutes my client really gets problems with his caching / memory stuff. When I try to load the market then or do some other non-cached thing, it takes up to a few minutes and I am frozen.
Now it could be that this is only because my pc sucks or that this was a memory problem with the client that might be fixed by now, but I know this was effecting quite a few m8's of mine, some even crashing because of it. And thinking I'd have to warp into a fight, after shooting at a pos for say one hour, would most likely result in the same thing you have described. Helpless frozeness and desyncness, which might also explain why the enemy had lag ( server ) but you had those frozen / desync problems ( client ).
Edit: Just was told that this is mainly a issue with pc's that have not enough memory, so it's not really applicable to 270 people *g* But prolly for a few of them besides the strange desynching ;)
(Reply to edit: It's got nothing to do with not having enough memory but having less will bring about the effect sooner)
This is basically what I've been thinking about why the de-synch that is happening. Both from what I've read on the boards here and my own experience in game. Basically the client has a memory leak somewhere. From the sounds of it the leak is in the communications subroutines.
It's not effecting normal single player much because, as in any memory/data leak, it builds up over time and solo play just doesn't generate enough data. If you're only playing for a few hours (2 to 4) you won't notice it much. If you do you'll probably associate it with a latency spike and ignore it. I've been on holiday for the last couple of weeks and have been playing way too much EVE - sometimes up to 15 hours a day and I have noticed it. Solo play that is unplayable for all the same reasons stated as to why fleet battles are unplayable. Restarting the client always fixes it.
With the exponential increase in data during group play the data loss is also exponentially increased. With the client waiting for data it's not going to get before it updates the screen then all you will get is a frozen scene but, as some have noticed, your commands will still go through - they just won't be rendered.
If you go into a fleet battle and your client locks up - shut down your client immediately and re-log. You'll probably find that you have a battle on your hands.
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SasRipper
DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2007.07.03 14:32:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Davos Breemer shut down your client immediately and re-log.
ohh great he who gets lucky / spams login wins the fight that makes sense
*snip* Sas has spoken this tread shall be locked. |
Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.03 14:47:00 -
[219]
Originally by: SFShootme stuff
No, what i'm saying is that it is actually a server sided problem, cpu overload if you wish to call it that. The servers can simpely not keep up with the tremendoes amount of data that is has to generate, i think there has been a dev blog about this somewhere. The only logical reason for ccp is to upgrade their coding or trow more hardware at the problem.
-
If Tranquility is so overloaded, why do the fifteen-hundred poor sods in X-ABC experience crippling performance issues while I get absolutely no frame rate loss, network latency, or other negative impacts in the system next door? Get a clue.
The staggering performance problems that stem from too many people in one spot will remain as long as players and developers view them as acceptable. When I was new to EVE, I asked the same questions as the OP (all be it not as diplomatically?), and was answered by an army of angry EVE Vets, whom stated I know nothing about server architecture, and whatever else. In a short, they made a long list of excuses for CCP why it's OK or understandable for EVE to be unplayable in said conditions.
Stop making excuses for EVE and CCP, and start demanding that CCP show us they haven't forgotten the fans in favor of capitalist nonsense.
Say NO to walking in stations. Say NO to heat. Say NO to tech 3.
Go back to basics. Gut EVE and bring it back to life.
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solbright altaltalt
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Posted - 2007.07.03 23:19:00 -
[220]
Edited by: solbright altaltalt on 03/07/2007 23:19:39
Originally by: Davos Breemer If you go into a fleet battle and your client locks up - shut down your client immediately and re-log. You'll probably find that you have a battle on your hands.
If that's where the concern is then it's not a lag problem at all.
That problem is purely the client bogging down on itself. The cause of this stutter is quite fixable. It could be classed as a type of bug that doesn't crash but instead fails to do the job required. Which is to provide a consistent framerate for playability.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
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Posted - 2007.07.03 23:37:00 -
[221]
Did TCF ever get reimbursed for this fight or did the OP quit? RISE Recruitment Thread
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