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Pang Grohl
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.27 16:59:00 -
[1]
Dev Blog response thread
If you haven't had a looksee, go meet Dr.EyjoG.
Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
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Posted - 2007.06.27 17:41:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Marodi Julita on 27/06/2007 17:39:34 Monthly inflation readings.
Get buisness side of corporations overhauled even more.
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Shin Ra
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.06.27 20:25:00 -
[3]
1) Some kind of transaction log for shares.
2) Variable station/state taxes, IE jita has higher tax.
3) NPC orders responding to buying and selling, eventually becoming not worth it, but at the same time having unused sell orders decrease in price etc like a real market.
4) Getting rid of NPC shuttle orders (also also undocking in pods) and other npc orders that help fix market prices of things like trit. This should make low-sec mining more appealing and mining in general more appealing.
5) Re-design of super-compressed minerals (IE in doomday devices) so they are harder to transport.
6) Re-design of contracts skills to allow a greater number of contracts.
7) Creation of a shop/bazaar system where corporations can sell hundreds of different BPCs at the same time all viewable in the same window. This would also allow form dedicated BPC corps to gain an advantage through marketing.
8) Creating some kind of salvage materials that can only be gained from PVP that can do something other than building rigs.
9) Do something with insurance, its based on old and outdated values.
10) Greater disclosure IE some kind of manual for invention. How much % does x affect the outcome by etc.
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.06.27 21:13:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Marodi Julita Monthly inflation readings.
Originally by: Shin Ra
2) Variable station/state taxes, IE jita has higher tax. To what end?
3) NPC orders responding to [regional?] buying and selling, eventually becoming not worth it, but at the same time having unused sell orders decrease in price etc like a real market.
4) Getting rid of NPC shuttle orders (also also undocking in pods) and other npc orders that help fix market prices of things like trit. This should make low-sec mining more appealing and mining in general more appealing. I think the controlled vs. bounded vs. free market discussion deserves to be had all on its own.
5) Re-design of super-compressed minerals (IE in doomday devices) so they are harder to transport. Again, for what purpose?
6) Re-design of contracts skills to allow a greater number of contracts.
7) Creation of a shop/bazaar system where corporations can sell hundreds of different BPCs at the same time all viewable in the same window. This would also allow form dedicated BPC corps to gain an advantage through marketing. Agreed, stronger branding and differentiation possibilities for non-commodity goods would be nice.
8) Creating some kind of salvage materials that can only be gained from PVP that can do something other than building rigs. I'd go so far as to say redesign the entire rig market - to be dependant on ship class (preferably production-side, i.e. build requirements).
9) Do something with insurance, its based on old and outdated values. Very much agreed. The whole "corp pays for insurance, you buy ship from corp" policy that most larger entities have, which in essence creates a fair amount of money for them is damned close to an exploit.
10) Greater disclosure IE some kind of manual for invention. How much % does x affect the outcome by etc. Agreed. Invention is a major part of the market now, and it needs to be less secretive than "let's let the players figure it out eventually" if it's eventually going to become the cornerstone of T2 production.
i) Some strong hints on long-term T2 BPO plans in an effort to bring some sanity to the market.
ii) Please vet the patch list for economic consequences and provide some sort of guidance to the playerbase so it's not quite so bumpy immediately post-patch.
iii) Long term: Get share trading implemented on an in-game market. iv) Long term: Implement binding futures contracts.
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Balogh
Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
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Posted - 2007.06.27 21:56:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ramblin Man iii) Long term: Get share trading implemented on an in-game market.
Seconded!
On the short term, a share transfer log would be really great. ______________________________ Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
Kasumi Kreig
Caldari United Systems Navy
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Posted - 2007.06.28 01:30:00 -
[6]
I wouldn't mind seeing a graph of how much value was lost every day from ship deaths (both pvp and against rats) & pod kills.
The EVE stock market seems to have some problems. Beyond the need for trust in brokers, there's too little activity on it, and too much risk of some corporation's CEO getting bored & not logging in for months. Some risk mitigation, or perhaps simply more buyers in the stock market, would probably help.
The game seems to have three non-overlapping segments of the economy. There's the economy for the newbies, who are mistakenly led to think that activities like ice mining will make them rich. Then, there's the manufacturers and L3-L4 mission runners, who can make money selling loot, salvaged parts, or manufactured items. Then, there's the section of the economy for people that live in low-sec space and somehow have billions of ISK for capital ships. It seems hard to move from the bottom rung of the economy to the second rung, and to someone like me who avoids low sec space, it's not clear how to move from the second rung to the third.
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Weakmind
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Posted - 2007.06.28 04:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kasumi Kreig , and to someone like me who avoids low sec space, it's not clear how to move from the second rung to the third.
It is quite easy. Easy way is activity. IMO low sec isnt "2nd rung" tho, as it currently is a bit "booched".
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Block Ukx
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ramblin Man
iii) Long term: Get share trading implemented on an in-game market.
Definitely a MUST!
IÆm extremely pleased with the addition of the wallet export. It now takes me less than 30 seconds to do a sales inventory. To finish it up, please add and export button to the assets window. This will allowed fast and accurate calculation of the corporation NAV.
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Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:51:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Block Ukx To finish it up, please add and export button to the assets window. This will allowed fast and accurate calculation of the corporation NAV.
Yes, I would love to see this along with a share transfer log.
/Eefrit
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.06.28 11:51:00 -
[10]
I think there are two seperate issues here.
One being more in-game tools for running a corporation (such as share trading, asset exports, etc).
And the other being the pure academics of the EVE financial model. These being ISK sinks and ISK injects (?). A study of these two factors (with pretty flow charts and diagrams) would be amazingly interesting, and could/would/should lead to some gameplay changes (for eg. Outposts and POS parts being completely player-made).
A clear definition of the current economic model, as well as an outline of an ideal (or goal) model would be appreciated.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | BMBE ISK Loans | |
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2007.06.28 13:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ramblin Man
iii) Long term: Get share trading implemented on an in-game market. iv) Long term: Implement binding futures contracts.
These two items right here would do more for the game than anything else right now period.
A real futures market with very real margin calls (talking seizures of assets, wallet, etc...) would do more for the economy than just about any other change right now.
Likewise with contracts, contract calls with game enforced seizures, etc... |
Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.06.28 18:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ray McCormack I think there are two seperate issues here.
One being more in-game tools for running a corporation (such as share trading, asset exports, etc).
And the other being the pure academics of the EVE financial model. These being ISK sinks and ISK injects (?). A study of these two factors (with pretty flow charts and diagrams) would be amazingly interesting, and could/would/should lead to some gameplay changes (for eg. Outposts and POS parts being completely player-made).
A clear definition of the current economic model, as well as an outline of an ideal (or goal) model would be appreciated.
Tbh, I think that's a great appraisal of the situation. Personally, I'd be just fine with Dr. Econosaur pushing to get "corporate/alliance easy button" type changes implemented immediately. (the asset export, etc. etc.)
That said, I'd have no problem if he wants to work up your "clear definition of the current economic model" before pushing for any changes that fundamentally alter the EVE economy. If they can produce pages and pages of game design text, then doesn't it stand to reason that there should be an economic analog? Where are things right now, and then where do we want to go?
As an aside, I'm guessing that he's going to trend towards more conservative/stabilizing changes on the whole for the macroeconomy in an effort to prepare it for more useful data-gather from any experimental changes.
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Moha Mend
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Posted - 2007.06.28 20:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
Originally by: Ramblin Man
iii) Long term: Get share trading implemented on an in-game market. iv) Long term: Implement binding futures contracts.
These two items right here would do more for the game than anything else right now period.
A real futures market with very real margin calls (talking seizures of assets, wallet, etc...) would do more for the economy than just about any other change right now.
/signed
Would like to see also a plan to launch IPO for npc corps, based on their long term buy/sell orders margins, the rewards spent on accomplished missions and isk received from offers.
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.06.28 23:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Moha Mend Would like to see also a plan to launch IPO for npc corps, based on their long term buy/sell orders margins, the rewards spent on accomplished missions and isk received from offers.
I'd personally like to see that dismissed entirely from the economy. You should invest in players, real people, not imaginary ones and zeros.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Ionia
Advanced Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.06.28 23:55:00 -
[15]
For those that suggested an in game share market I think this is a terrible idea.
There should be in game mechanisms for buying and selling shares such as a 'trade' type feature, and a share transaction log, but an actual in game market would be wrought with scam and silly companies without any regulation. It is unreasonable to expect CCP to regulate the market so leave it to the players like we do currently.
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Cenzo
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Posted - 2007.06.29 01:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ionia For those that suggested an in game share market I think this is a terrible idea.
There should be in game mechanisms for buying and selling shares such as a 'trade' type feature, and a share transaction log, but an actual in game market would be wrought with scam and silly companies without any regulation. It is unreasonable to expect CCP to regulate the market so leave it to the players like we do currently.
I'm no expert on shares, but how would having a market mechanism INCREASE scams? Player could use (or choose not to) the same level of skepticism that they do now when investing in shares. Having a market would increase price transparency as well as make it easier to find buyers/sellers. Can you point to specific examples of how having a market would be detrimental to the game and economy?
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.06.29 08:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Cenzo I'm no expert on shares, but how would having a market mechanism INCREASE scams? Player could use (or choose not to) the same level of skepticism that they do now when investing in shares. Having a market would increase price transparency as well as make it easier to find buyers/sellers. Can you point to specific examples of how having a market would be detrimental to the game and economy?
Currently, to be listed on the two exchanges, you have to show a business plan or public offering proposal. And if you scam, you get de-listed. They have some form of regulation.
It's highly doubtful that an in-game exchange would have any regulation (just look at the escrow/contract scams that have plagued us for years), so it would be easy for someone to sell their shares without any vetting, and continue to sell them after being exposed as a scam.
People will fall for it, they will show no scepticism and do no investigating (just look at the escrow/contract scams that have plagued us for years).
As an example of how to scam using an in-game market, and for this I presume it will show the dividend history as well as a dividend percentage according to initial price and/or market price.
1) Form corporation, issue x shares. Keep x shares to self/alts. 2) Dividend y ISK to self/alts for z months, where y is a high percentage and z is enough to foment some interest. 3) Sell x shares on in-game market for lots of ISK. 4) Discontinue dividends, wallow in ISK.
Granted the above is achievable using the current systems, however the regulations imposed and the very brutal vetting conducted on these forums is enough to throw up warning signs at the slightest indication of a potential scam.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Inevitability
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.06.29 13:29:00 -
[18]
I want an in-game bank, where you can take out a loan and each month it draws your promisorry (sp) note plus interest until you pay it back. Give people a way to get started in the game other than having to grind missions, and start off small...some of us don't enjoy that. Maybe he can get this pushed through as an idea to boost the economy in Eve.
***Please Contact In-Game For Winning Bids*** |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2007.06.29 16:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Cenzo I'm no expert on shares, but how would having a market mechanism INCREASE scams? Player could use (or choose not to) the same level of skepticism that they do now when investing in shares. Having a market would increase price transparency as well as make it easier to find buyers/sellers. Can you point to specific examples of how having a market would be detrimental to the game and economy?
Currently, to be listed on the two exchanges, you have to show a business plan or public offering proposal. And if you scam, you get de-listed. They have some form of regulation.
It's highly doubtful that an in-game exchange would have any regulation (just look at the escrow/contract scams that have plagued us for years), so it would be easy for someone to sell their shares without any vetting, and continue to sell them after being exposed as a scam.
People will fall for it, they will show no scepticism and do no investigating (just look at the escrow/contract scams that have plagued us for years).
As an example of how to scam using an in-game market, and for this I presume it will show the dividend history as well as a dividend percentage according to initial price and/or market price.
1) Form corporation, issue x shares. Keep x shares to self/alts. 2) Dividend y ISK to self/alts for z months, where y is a high percentage and z is enough to foment some interest. 3) Sell x shares on in-game market for lots of ISK. 4) Discontinue dividends, wallow in ISK.
Granted the above is achievable using the current systems, however the regulations imposed and the very brutal vetting conducted on these forums is enough to throw up warning signs at the slightest indication of a potential scam.
And this would be any different from how things operate now... how again?
The way I see it, the potential loss from scams offsets the benefit of having a corporation have the ability to issues bonds and shares to raise funding capital for expansion projects.
The ability to purchase shares on the open market would open up a plethora of good things for the EVE economy which would more than offset the occasional negatives.
And again, add in the same requirements the real world markets have. Enforced contracts and margin calls on characters and the corporations they are linked too. |
Cpt Fina
Insult to Injury
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Posted - 2007.06.29 16:38:00 -
[20]
I'd like to see how much isk i currently have in my sellorders. And a feature which lets you highlight items in your hangar and then "show market value".
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.06.29 16:42:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria And this would be any different from how things operate now... how again?
I'm sorry, I was sure I'd explained it. The current exchanges are regulated, it is highly doubtful an in-game one would be, so it would allow anyone to list their shares on it with zero vetting. It will simply become another way to scam using an in-game tool.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Moha Mend
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Posted - 2007.06.29 20:09:00 -
[22]
* About the in-game market for shares:
The in-game stock exchange doesn't need to regulate anything more than a Show Info on the share bringing the Corp info.
All the services that the current stock exchanges we have (run by actual players) will have even more importance with a in-game stock. Analysis, auditing, graphs, etc, etc, will be crucial before hitting the buy/sell button of in-game tool.
The only thing that would change will be to have a simple, safe way to handle money/share exchanging.
* About the NPC stocks
I don't thing a NPC corp would make more profit than a player corp; this is more a mechanisms to balance the isk flow of NPCs and regulate buy/sell orders, as way missions rewards and offers cost.
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MaerD
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Posted - 2007.06.30 08:30:00 -
[23]
1) a stock exchange is a good idea. Please include NPC corps. They'd be rather more stable then PC corps anyway. Also, possibly npcs (or npc corps) that buy other corp's stock, ala holding corporations.
2)More NPC traders for horribly broken markets. For instance, the trade of any kind of passengers (tourists, homeless, exotic dancers) seems to always have buy prices that are far out of line with the sell prices. While this may indicate an unpopular item for players to trade, there still should be supply and demand from npcs. For instance, there are missions that involve taking homeless to a "research station", which while funny represents a supply and demand that should be going on outside of the missions. The same goes for trade goods, they should *ALL* have supply and demand from the npc corps that responds to price changes to avoid (mid to long term) horribly broken market situations.
3) now that we have a scanner, black market stations in areas of empire space (up to say, 0.6?) where neutral characters can buy/sell less then legal items for a region. I may just be missing it because I don't do much 0.0 trading at this point, but I have yet to see a station that lets me sell anything it considers illegal, despite running it past customs on the way in to the system. (or alternatively, allow illegal items to be bought and sold, with a higher broker %s)
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Jennai
The Silent Rage R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.30 09:34:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Shin Ra 4) Getting rid of NPC shuttle orders (also also undocking in pods) and other npc orders that help fix market prices of things like trit. This should make low-sec mining more appealing and mining in general more appealing.
that one's easy, just raise the price of shuttles to like 4/trit, or make npc orders auto-adjust to always be considerably above player production cost. removing npc shuttle orders would do bad things to the factory queues because they're used in vast amounts and take a stupidly long time to build.
I think they've already fixed that POS module that reprocessed into lots of cheap trit.
low-sec mining would still suck because I'm not aware of any NPC items that create a price ceiling on high-end minerals, and low-sec mins don't produce many low-end minerals anyway. it's going to keep sucking unless low-end minerals go down a lot and mid to high-end minerals go up a lot, or low-sec mineral yields are substantially altered.
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Cudaya Ebsldes
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Posted - 2007.06.30 19:43:00 -
[25]
An EVE economic model or is ISK an actual measure of anything?(a post I decided not to make)
I am a solo player, not a member of any corps and have only one account. I started the game when 4000 people would break the server and a CNR was worth 1.6 bill. There were less skills to train and less modules to worry about. 0.0 only contained NPCs. IÆve tried my hand at NPC trades, some manufacturing and mission running. PVP doesnÆt really excite me. Am not involved in 0.0, but I think that they are only a parasite of Empire, economically speaking, if as advertised it is total war and anarchy; then without law there is no market; CCP indulges with game mechanics without which the conclusion below would become immediately obvious.
I became disillusioned with t-1 empire manufacture as a result of the seemingly wacky price swings of minerals and the almost constant drum beat in the trade channels about ISK sinks and ISK faucets. I began to wonder if ISK has any value in the game at all; if you look in the EVE folder you find items with the ending .stuff. So I reasoned that the devs considered everything as .stuff irrespective of how it was used. It then seemed to me logical to assume that the real question was one of the æbalanceÆ of æstuffÆ and not its value in ISK. Obviously as the game has developed more æstuffÆ has become available causing æstuff inflationÆ. The question to me then was is this a true inflation and how would this be measured. If ISK is merely æstuffÆ then the ôGods of Thorö can create it at will (thru seeding æroids, mission bounties, etc)
Given -- one player can have several accounts, and it is not easy to afk for any long period of time (macro isk farmers excepted) there would seem to be a direct correlation between the time that a player expends to accomplish a certain task
Given -- the goals of EVE have expanded. You now have POS and player territorial warfare that didnÆt exist 3 years ago. As a Caldari player I would say the getting of the coveted CNR was the goal of all mission runners and in NPC trades or manufacture it would be just the amassing of ISK. Today the complexities force group action, the goal being the ôgloryö of map coloration and kills with the consequent excitement of battle.
I have come to the conclusion that EVE is not an economic game in any true sense but merely a logistics game, that is, moving A between two points, the rewards being the psychological satisfaction of either group support in accomplishing a goal or in ôbeating the system.ö To my way of thinking in RL ôbeating the systemö is more of an economic or political game and does not involve war at all.
At this point I face a problem in my approach if ISK has no true value other than the time players use to accumulate stuff. ISK will never inflate, but only deflate û present example the CNR which now sells for 700 mill, and if you check the market stats has gone down in price even before the advent of the LP store(so if you saved your iskies you now could have several CNRs). To me the reason seems simple. There always has to be content inflation to generate player interest and as content inflates goals must also inflate. But conversely it seems anecdotally true that this content inflation is TRUE inflation in the sense that as in RL, you have to work harder to achieve goals which are ever receding( i.e. my quality of life is going down) as I believe that the ônoobö question ôHow do I win EVEö is a real basic psychological component affecting gameplay.
If the rule is player time expended then. the economic model here is pure æbarterÆ(time for time) and there is no monetary system at all. (unless ISK is tied down to something or something is given as an absolute)
If I am right then there would have to be a massive change in game mechanics which I think is beyond the goals of present EVE gameplay. Keyboard error or no keyboard present. Press F1 to continue. |
Ma Hensu
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Posted - 2007.06.30 22:03:00 -
[26]
unfortunately the primary thing that might deter some of the great advancements listed here for the Eve economy....is that richer players will = less income for the ccp. Like any society, many of us want to be able to attain wealth in easier faster ways.
If the majority of players were able to afford GTC cards every month the CCP would lose real dollars. There are some complex issues regarding the Eve economy and I am certain CCPs picking up an economist is a sure indication of it.
Eve is a great game...I am hopeful they are working on making improvements that resolve some of the kinks with these great suggestions.
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Banni Vinda
EnfuRia Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.06.30 22:39:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ma Hensu If the majority of players were able to afford GTC cards every month the CCP would lose real dollars.
I'd just like to point something out that I think may be relevant here: Every GTC that someone sells for isk only exists because they (or someone further back in the chain) paid real dollars to CCP. GTC trade does not produce/consume isk, it merely moves it around. Similarly GTC trade does not mean there are accounts that are costing CCP 'missing' dollars. Someone's RL money is paying for every account in the game, even if those dollars haven't come directly from the person playing on that account.
...unless something has changed about GTCs that I don't know about.
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Macon Squaredealer
Squaredeal Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.01 13:26:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Macon Squaredealer on 01/07/2007 13:26:25
Originally by: Ma Hensu unfortunately the primary thing that might deter some of the great advancements listed here for the Eve economy....is that richer players will = less income for the ccp. Like any society, many of us want to be able to attain wealth in easier faster ways.
If the majority of players were able to afford GTC cards every month the CCP would lose real dollars. There are some complex issues regarding the Eve economy and I am certain CCPs picking up an economist is a sure indication of it.
Totally false.
The amount of isk demanded by the people spending real money for timecards would go up to the level nedded that the amount of people able and willing to purchase the timecards would equal the supply. ___________________________________________ Watch for the Squaredeal Enterprises IPO in the coming months. |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.07.01 21:00:00 -
[29]
- the inflexible LP store - well, it's too late for the drone alloys now, unless you want to screw the other half of the player base aswell. - it's just a matter of time before moon minerals blow up in our face - "static" sources for growing demand? see previous T2 BPO system... -
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Pang Grohl
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.02 03:50:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cudaya Ebsldes An EVE economic model or is ISK an actual measure of anything?(a post I decided not to make)
You ask a question here that is very dangerous to how wealth is perceived around this board.
In my opinion you've got the right of it though. ISK has very little or no intrinsic value. Why? There are very few things that absolutely cannot be traded for goods in kind. Barring the few exceptions ISK is just a convenient exchange medium in the barter economy.
Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) |
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