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Colonel Drego
Caldari Angels of the Apocolypse
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Posted - 2007.07.03 00:38:00 -
[1]
Now, I have not put very much thought into this admittedly, and it just came up last night while talking to a friend, but would an entirely new class of ships, somewhere between battleships and capital ships, be a sound idea?
The way I saw them were essentially larger, slower, tougher battleships, much in the same way that destroyers are to frigates, and battlecruisers are to cruisers. While I'm sure it was intended to be that way, the gap between the largest "standard" ships and the capitals seems quite, vast. Cost, of course, would have to be a prohibitive factor in these ships, so they would not be nearly as common as battleships, since by nature they would end up being the most powerful "conventional" ship, serving as something of a flagship to a gang or small corporation.
While it would be good for these ships to be powerful, no one would want these to evolve into "solopwnmobiles" for obvious reasons, so they would need to be even more vulnerable to small, hard to hit ships than currnet battleships. They should lock slower, have a significantly larger signature radius, and of course, dismal agility. Also, perhaps give them below average drone bays, so if on their own, they would have little ability to defend themselves effectively against frigates and such, short of WCS and massed nos, the usual stuff. I would not want these to completely replace battleships in fleet battles either, so their range shouldn't excede your average fleet sniper.
Well, I can not think of much else to say, so any input is welcome.
___________________________________________ New pilot's typical first mission |
Namingway
Important Yet Underrated Video Game Characters
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Posted - 2007.07.03 01:04:00 -
[2]
I think if/when T2 Bs are intoduced, that will do more than even gap covering.
Especially if the Amarr get a BS version of the Curse, which will then proceed to solo-drain a titan's cap.
Originally by: CCP kieron If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
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Spenz
Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.03 04:26:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Spenz on 03/07/2007 04:27:30
There is a shipclass called a Monitor Class. Basically a light cruiser fitted with 1 turret of the largest gun they can put on it, typically a battleship turret.
Why not make a Monitor class vessel built upon a battleship hull, and give it 1-2 XL class turrets and allow it to go into siege. It would need all those relevant skills and maybe Advanced Spaceship command III. Probably not very useful other than cheap POS takedown and high-sec POS takedown, but hey we have stealth bombers in game, which is proof that CCP does not exclude useless items in their modelling decisions(although the ability to use XL guns on a ship that can use stargates and go into hi-sec would be far more useful than a stealth bomber).
And besides, advanced spaceship command needs more shipclasses in it. I mean there are only 2 levels of ASC; I and V. Lets make something inbetween.
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
Hijara
Amarr Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.03 05:18:00 -
[4]
I have to agree. I think that a middle road between the capital ships and the BS's would be a great idea. I also think that a hac like ship could be in order. Just make it prohibitally expensive, and or, skill intensive to fly. yes, a lot might get out, but i thnk a gang of good pilots could kill them. I personaly favor the idea of a bs with 2 XL gun weapon slots. This could be used as an anti-bs weapon, or a pos takedown, both of which would add a nice new facet to the game. CCP would have to look into balancing them however.
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Litus Arowar
Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.
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Posted - 2007.07.03 06:09:00 -
[5]
beautiful idea with the monitor class... I think it should be the bigass destroyer... IE slow, huge sig, XL gun (or two), but with a paper thin tank... and it should have very few slots to set up a tank... I see it as the cheap alternative to a dread for taking down POSs, but requiring logistics (carrier for example) for tanking... that way it's very specialized but still attractive for a dread alternative... obviously, my understanding of caps is nonexistent, so don't laugh at my idea of "balance", it's just a thought of a current ship to base it on...
Originally by: Warrio For some reason I can not move past the image of me sitting at my PC looking at a faction Concord BS with a raging hard-on and honestly, it disturbs me a little.
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Llerrad Gabemid
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.07.03 06:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Spenz Edited by: Spenz on 03/07/2007 04:27:30
There is a shipclass called a Monitor Class. Basically a light cruiser fitted with 1 turret of the largest gun they can put on it, typically a battleship turret.
Why not make a Monitor class vessel built upon a battleship hull, and give it 1-2 XL class turrets and allow it to go into siege. It would need all those relevant skills and maybe Advanced Spaceship command III. Probably not very useful other than cheap POS takedown and high-sec POS takedown, but hey we have stealth bombers in game, which is proof that CCP does not exclude useless items in their modelling decisions(although the ability to use XL guns on a ship that can use stargates and go into hi-sec would be far more useful than a stealth bomber).
And besides, advanced spaceship command needs more shipclasses in it. I mean there are only 2 levels of ASC; I and V. Lets make something inbetween.
I agree with the OP, but the monitor ship class thing is just ingenius. love that idea. additionally we could create a BS size ship that is in effect a massive destroyer that could protect capital ships from things like monitor ships with XL blasters or pulse lasers or something.
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Alrich
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Posted - 2007.07.03 07:31:00 -
[7]
yea, the ammount of capitals in game sertanly proves that the prizetag is a limiting factor.
the only use for a ship above BS but below capitals is a ship for killing capitals.
the problem is to make it useless against bs's and smaller, and still give it a punsh strong enough. we dont want to make a super smiper...
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Arakidias
Murky Inc. FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.03 07:46:00 -
[8]
To be honest, dreadnoughts are just that, large siege vessels, ie. monitors.
If you put two xl guns on a monitor then it's already almost as good as a dread, which usually has 3 xl weapons. If you put one, it's still basically a mini dread, useful for only pos work.
And in real life, first monitors were coastal battleships, while only later, in the 20th century, were they releagated to coastal support work. And they were never constructed on light cruiser hulls. Perhaps you are thinking of the Courageous/Furious abominations? They were intended for fleet work, not coastal support.
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Kokoshu
Caldari Militaris
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Posted - 2007.07.03 08:07:00 -
[9]
Wait a BS hull with 1-2 XL weapons that can go into siege???
isnt that well a dread???
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Litus Arowar
Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.
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Posted - 2007.07.03 08:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kokoshu Wait a BS hull with 1-2 XL weapons that can go into siege???
isnt that well a dread???
I think allowing it to go into siege would be ridiculous... I didn't actually catch that in the original post, but am against it
Originally by: Warrio For some reason I can not move past the image of me sitting at my PC looking at a faction Concord BS with a raging hard-on and honestly, it disturbs me a little.
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Hephaesteus
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.03 08:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Alrich yea, the ammount of capitals in game sertanly proves that the prizetag is a limiting factor.
the only use for a ship above BS but below capitals is a ship for killing capitals.
the problem is to make it useless against bs's and smaller, and still give it a punsh strong enough. we dont want to make a super smiper...
Cap ships are not rare in low sec or 0.0 seems every man and his dog has one out there.
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Chewan Mesa
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.03 08:44:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Chewan Mesa on 03/07/2007 08:43:46 Cap ships are very common, so there is not really this "huge gap" everyone sees.
It is certainly a gap, since a cap ship comes with unique capabilities, however that gap is in-line with the other ships and their next bigger neighbour.
Considering the "monitor class" you mentioned...if you first think of the ship-class, and then have to ponder about what puprose you can "invent" for it to do to justify introducing it its already clear that you might as well not get it in tbh.
Battleships are already suitable for killing caps, so its no desperate need there either. If you further lower the amount of people it takes to kill a carrier for example, the carrier then is not worth the investment anymore.
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Alrich
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Posted - 2007.07.03 08:45:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hephaesteus
Originally by: Alrich yea, the ammount of capitals in game sertanly proves that the prizetag is a limiting factor.
the only use for a ship above BS but below capitals is a ship for killing capitals.
the problem is to make it useless against bs's and smaller, and still give it a punsh strong enough. we dont want to make a super smiper...
Cap ships are not rare in low sec or 0.0 seems every man and his dog has one out there.
exactley my point. sorry for not makeing it clear enough
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Liam Fremen
Gallente Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2007.07.03 09:06:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Colonel Drego Edited by: Colonel Drego on 03/07/2007 00:53:24 The way I saw them were essentially larger, slower, Cost, of course, would have to be a prohibitive factor in these ships serving as something of a flagship to a gang or small corporation. no one would want these to evolve into "solopwnmobiles" for obvious reasons, they would need to be even more vulnerable to small, hard to hit ships than currnet battleships. They should lock slower, have a significantly larger signature radius, and of course, dismal agility. Also, perhaps give them below average drone bays, so if on their own, they would have little ability to defend themselves effectively against frigates and such, short of WCS and massed nos, the usual stuff. their range shouldn't excede your average fleet sniper.
I'm trying to find out what ship you just lost or what kind of duty you was not able to achieve for coming out with something like this, basically you are asking for a capital ship without the capital ship tank abilities, without the bs sniper abilities or drone bay and without any xl weapon.
Basically you are asking for something of crap just for having a ship a bit bigger inside Jita or something like that?
Check me out! I'm so badass that i scare off myself! |
Cpt Branko
Guardian Heroes
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Posted - 2007.07.03 09:27:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/07/2007 09:30:40 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/07/2007 09:30:01 I think you're being unclear. Like this:
Originally by: Hijara I also think that a hac like ship could be in order. Just make it prohibitally expensive, and or, skill intensive to fly. yes, a lot might get out, but i thnk a gang of good pilots could kill them
Is probably better translated as:
Originally by: Hijara I also think that a HAC like solo-pwn-mobile could be in order. Just make it prohibitally expensive, skill intensive to fly and utterly overpowered. Make it so it can slaughter a whole group.
There you go. Now, a anti-capital BS might make sense, but I wouldn't know as that sort of thing isn't my cup of tea anyway. If we're going to look for T2 ships based on the battleship hull, then I'm all for something which wouldn't obsolete a T1 BS, just would have a different role - i wouldn't want T1 battleships rendered obsolete.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.03 11:11:00 -
[16]
I just want BS with PG reductio nof 95% for X-Large guns.
Not very good agasint other smaller ships but devastatign againt capitals. Imagine a tempest with 6x X Large arties :P
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
000Hunter000
Gallente Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.07.03 11:18:00 -
[17]
reading all this i think people would like to see a combatship bigger then a BS that is capable of going into hi sec AND use gates
Artilleryship comes to mind. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar RONA Deepspace
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Posted - 2007.07.03 15:56:00 -
[18]
If CCP sticks to conventional ship classes the only "option" is to make a Heavy Battleship. The next step up from BS is a dread and carrier. Every ship class can be further broken down into Assault, Battle, Command, Commando, Escort, Heavy, Light, Scout, and some others that don't matter. A monitor by definition is a ship class with more weapons then it's supposed to have. So a Dread, MS, and tier 3 BC fall into this category I would think.... I think personally the gap is fine with carriers in place.
http://homepage.mac.com/cheethorne/Palladium/shipclasses.htm#combat
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: 000Hunter000 reading all this i think people would like to see a combatship bigger then a BS that is capable of going into hi sec AND use gates
Artilleryship comes to mind.
I really dotn care with High sec. High sec is uselles, and Would be very happy if it was not allowed in high sec at all.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Lars Intarestum
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:20:00 -
[20]
If we're making a bigger BS, it should be anti-BS, not anti-Cap, in my opinion. Of course, in my opinion, that idea is horrible. The reasoning though is lets look at the "one up" classes so far.
Destroyer. Designed to kill Frigs dead, get pimp slapped by Cruisers and up. Battlecruiser. Designed (though not always implemented this way) to kill Cruisers, get pimp slapped by Battleships. BigBattleship. Should be designed to kill Battleships, but get pimp slapped by capitals.
Now, I kinda like the idea of a Battleship sized ship that can fit one or two UNSEIGED XL weapons. Make it with relatively little tank so that a group of agile cruisers could easily get in and start ripping them to shreds. Against BS's, they'd hit like trucks. Give them a range penalty (maybe -25% to -50% optimal) so they don't become the uber snipers and let them have to manuver to really get thier guns to fire accurately. It would become not only a expensive, skill intensive (Capital Guns by themselves are expensive skill wise) but also require a good pilot player wise, to get the most out of them.
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DarkXenon
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:22:00 -
[21]
I have to agree there is a huge gap between battleships and capitals, I think T2 battleships may help sort this out, although it would be cool to have a sub-capital class with say 5-7 XL weapons and standard L rep/booster with no siege mode.
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LogixCraft
Gallente Insidious Existence Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:33:00 -
[22]
Everyone is looking at Capitals vs BS for the Gap in skill. As well as the fact they want a biggership for less skills/cost.
Capitals aren't PURELY there for their size/abilities.
A Capital also has the factor of intimidation.
When someone jumps in a capital(s) into a fleet or onto a hostile camp/force, you know the people on the other end are starting to get worried about their chances. A infant-capital would remove the intimidation factor, instead of "Wow a capital! Oh...Crap..." It will turn into "Haha a Capital, well guys lock on!"
It's like going from a Captian to an Admiral, it's not "hey I'll just be both!" it takes tiiiime, and that time is well worth the firepower/intimidation/suchness.
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xenodia
Gallente Shadowrun Company
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Posted - 2007.07.03 16:37:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Chewan Mesa
Considering the "monitor class" you mentioned...if you first think of the ship-class, and then have to ponder about what puprose you can "invent" for it to do to justify introducing it its already clear that you might as well not get it in tbh.
Battleships are already suitable for killing caps, so its no desperate need there either. If you further lower the amount of people it takes to kill a carrier for example, the carrier then is not worth the investment anymore.
It would be nice to have a suitable platform for taking out a high-sec pos without having to spend 9 hours with a gang of 25 battleships pounding it. Thats the only compelling reason I can find for a ship between BS and Capitals.
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Colonel Drego
Caldari Angels of the Apocolypse
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Posted - 2007.07.03 20:10:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Liam Fremen
Originally by: Colonel Drego Edited by: Colonel Drego on 03/07/2007 00:53:24 The way I saw them were essentially larger, slower, Cost, of course, would have to be a prohibitive factor in these ships serving as something of a flagship to a gang or small corporation. no one would want these to evolve into "solopwnmobiles" for obvious reasons, they would need to be even more vulnerable to small, hard to hit ships than currnet battleships. They should lock slower, have a significantly larger signature radius, and of course, dismal agility. Also, perhaps give them below average drone bays, so if on their own, they would have little ability to defend themselves effectively against frigates and such, short of WCS and massed nos, the usual stuff. their range shouldn't excede your average fleet sniper.
I'm trying to find out what ship you just lost or what kind of duty you was not able to achieve for coming out with something like this, basically you are asking for a capital ship without the capital ship tank abilities, without the bs sniper abilities or drone bay and without any xl weapon.
Basically you are asking for something of crap just for having a ship a bit bigger inside Jita or something like that?
What happened, sir, was that I was talking to a friend of mine, and we had this idea for a ship, midway between battleships and capitals, that did not outclass or make obsolete either. Since exchanging ideas is the way progress is made, I decided to post said idea here on the forums, looking for feedback. Obviously, i'm no game developer so, I put the idea out there, and hoped for others to expand upon it, such as the rather brilliant Monitor-class idea.
If you have nothing useful to add and would rather delegate your time to broad generalizations and insinuations that I must be some sort of idiot for posting thoughts, please take your dribble elsewhere.
___________________________________________ New pilot's typical first mission |
Thor Xian
EarthForce E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.07.03 20:19:00 -
[25]
I like the idea linked in my sig more. ________________________________________ ~Fleet Admiral Thor Xian, Strategic Commander
Meet the Overlord |
Spenz
Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.03 20:30:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Spenz on 03/07/2007 20:31:26 Yeah I forgot about the Furious. I was thinking about the Erebus. The Erebus sounds like a ship that is meant to bring battleship class firepower in places a battleship cant go.
Well capital ships cant go into hi-sec yet there are POS's that can be fully defended by sentry guns in 0.7 space, yet you have no proper vessel to kill it other than mass battleships, and with Starbase management it seems as if battleships are more vunerable than ever to starbase defenses if the defenders are home (which is very easy in hi-sec due to no bubbles and concord).
I have yet to hear of any hi-sec POS going down, yet they are all the rave in research and production because of their safety, even during wartime.
So from my standpoint, a monitor-class wouldnt be much use in a gang situation, but in a fleet situation and a bombardment situation it could do pretty decent. Besides XL turrets deserve more than 1 ship they can be mounted on. It seems like a waste to have all that fancy equipment but it can only be fit on 1 ship.
And then there is the stealth bomber...the epitome of uselessness.
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
Xtro 2
Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2007.07.03 20:42:00 -
[27]
there would be no suitable role for such a shipclass, other than some wet dream for a cheap capital killer.
Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder. |
Admiral Annihilation
Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.03 21:51:00 -
[28]
Have a capital Battleship for PvEing. - 10-15 hi slots (can fit up to seige launchers / Large guns) - very slow turn time. - 10 launchers for caldari, 10 hardpoints for mini/amarr, 8 hardpoints + 1000m3 drone bay for gallente. - 5,000m3 cargo hold - Cyno & stargates (but drains the cap like a cyno) - 25m/s top speed
Basicly, the ultimate ratting ship, only useful in secrue space/ missions. 750m -> 1B price tag. Not useful for fleet battles/ pvp but very good at lvl 4/5s and ratting.
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Nerogk Shorn
Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2007.07.03 23:01:00 -
[29]
pshh, there are enough large ships. I say introduce more smaller ships. We see enough battleships as it is, and they truly aren't that fun to fly.
D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S |
Spenz
Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.03 23:12:00 -
[30]
Eh hi-sec POS killing is a role. A small one but a role nonetheless. Its like saying the dread has no role because it can only do 1 thing.
Forget smaller shipclasses. There are so many smaller shipclasses right now that Advanced Spaceship Command is just some fancy skill that required you to train to lvl 5 without any reward for training the other levels unless you pilot a freighter.
Every shipclass other than the Battleship and Dreadnought have been fleshed out. Frigates to Covop/AF/inty; Destroyer to Interdictor; Cruiser to HAC/Logistic ship/Recon; Battlecruiser to Command Ship; Industrial to Transport; Barge to....uber barge; Carrier to Mothership.
Last thing I want is ANOTHER small ship. Besides since when was the last time you saw a dread pwning with XL weapons out of siege on a regular basis? I doubt balance is an issue. You know you want it
Since when was a brand new shipclass a bad thing (dont mention the titan)?
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
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