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Yasuki Orie
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.06 06:02:00 -
[1]
Shouldn't this be the other way around? Mission invaders can break into your mission within a minute of coming into a system but if you are looking for exploration sites it takes hours. What is up with that?
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Countess NotFarOut2
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Posted - 2007.07.06 06:12:00 -
[2]
So how supereasy is it, then? Last time I read about this topic it was very difficult to probe missionrunners; if they use drones it was somewhat easier, but all-in-all it was basically luck to find 1 in a deadspace. Has that chenged recently?
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Yasuki Orie
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.06 06:35:00 -
[3]
I said you could get probed out in under a minute. Almost no one runs missions in low sec because you will be probed out and killed. There are gangs of mission breakers having around the few lvl 5 agents which stop anyone from doing lvl 5 missions even if they fixed the rewards on lvl 5 missions. Dealing with fleets of mission breakers on top of npc capital ships would require mission rewards of 100,000 lps or more to compensate for the risk.
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Gaden Amoen
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Posted - 2007.07.06 06:41:00 -
[4]
with a bit practice and a covert ops + rigs you can track ships down in no time... . Even with standart exploration probes there is no problem to find mission runners in under 2 minutes...how long will it take to fly the most lvl 4 missions? a bit more then 2 minutes i think.
I for myself found several Mission runners while exploring... Missions in low sec? No thanks!
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.07.06 07:49:00 -
[5]
If only Exploration sites, showed up in Local, gathered all together in the same predictable systems, popped in and out of stations and gates constantly, deployed combat drones despite all the warnings not to do so, had signatures the size of fat-assed CNRs, and generally behaved in as foolish a manner as possible, they'd be easy to find too. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Earl Black
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Posted - 2007.07.06 08:57:00 -
[6]
There is one avid poster who tells it like it is, just look in C&P he is not hard to find, It is not hard at all to find the gates to missions. If the rest told the truth then it would be fixed but the changes to scanning have made finding gates/drones real easy, I had trouble finding a grav site got very close but still not able to get there, in comparison i found loads of drones which made up for the probes used.
12 T2 ogres 7 T2 hammerheads, 14 goblins T2 but only 3 T2 praetor and 3 webber drones. 5 mission gates I found and 1 player at the gate waiting to enter. In truth its not hard at all but no one is realy going to say finding mission runners and jumping in the mission is easy, sort of defeats the object after telling everyone just how hard it is and how they are realy safe and just be watch scanner/local, stop being a wuss and get out of empire.
Just try it in a mission system and see for yourself, with skill you can be a lot quicker.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.06 09:18:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske If only Exploration sites, showed up in Local, gathered all together in the same predictable systems, popped in and out of stations and gates constantly, deployed combat drones despite all the warnings not to do so, had signatures the size of fat-assed CNRs, and generally behaved in as foolish a manner as possible, they'd be easy to find too.
Right, so to avoid being scanned we only need to do the logic thing: do missions in frigates, not using drones, change agent and corporation every mission, delete our presence from local.
Waith, I already have all the standing I need with level 1 agents and no need to do missions for them in low sec. Maybe level 4 or 5 missions require something larger than a frigate.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.07.06 09:27:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 06/07/2007 09:27:38 Oh its pretty simple. The mission gankers like to gank missioners and don't want it to be made any harder, so they cry that it is too hard now.
The mission runners don't want to be ganked and don't want it to be made any easier, so they cry that it is too easy.
The truth lies somewhere inbetween. My personal experience though is that it is indeed a bit too easy (this is from finding them, not from being found), and especially the mere chance that it can happen within 20 sec (however low that chance it does not matter when you fly an expensive ship) discourages me and probably many others from running lowsec anymore.
The perfect fix would be to bring back some meaningful minimum scan deviations for the 10+ AU probes, so people would be forced to scan at least twice to find someone unless they start with 5AU probes. This would give the mission runner roughly 1 minute between the first 10AU probe being dropped and him being found, which might get the attentive ones back to lowsec (scanning for probes every 10 secs is not attentive, its crazy).
And along with this, please for the love of god make probes their own category in the overview so we don't have to have EVERYTHING display in order to scan for probes.
Thanks SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in turret |
Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Venkul Mul to avoid being scanned we only need
From one extreme to other, and you feel it helps the discussions somehow?
I reckon the OP hinted at possible solutions, like: - Instead of using the best (and hence the most populated) agent system, settle on 4th best - Instead of standard CNR + drones, consider some pimped non-drone HAC for those lv4s
There are bunch of other precautions for missioners as well, all needing some extra work/caution.
One would suppose it's kind of self-balancing system : the more missioners some system has, the more dedicated missioner hunters it will attract -> greater risk for careless missioners, tweeding them out eventually.
-Lasse
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:46:00 -
[10]
Quote: Instead of standard CNR + drones, consider some pimped non-drone HAC for those lv4s
if you dont fly a pimpe cnr you can as well fly lvl4's in highsec... earns you more than slowly grinding trough lowsec lvl 4's in a cerb...
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:58:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 06/07/2007 12:03:02
Originally by: d026
Quote: Instead of standard CNR + drones, consider some pimped non-drone HAC for those lv4s
if you dont fly a pimpe cnr you can as well fly lvl4's in highsec... earns you more than slowly grinding trough lowsec lvl 4's in a cerb...
Not only that, but once you have flown a pimped ship for missions, going back to a lesser one destroys any fun that remains in missions, at least for me. Even if the rewards for running a non-pimped ship in lowsec were higher than for running a pimped one in highsec, I would not go back due to this. Only if I can keep myself 99% safe using a pimped ship by being attentive/paranoid will I go back to lowsec missioning. PvP intrusions on PvE are as well received by mission runners are PvE intrusions on PvP are by pirates. And I am sure all you balls-of-steel owner-of-the-galaxy pirates greatly enjoy and willingly subject yourselves to Concord on a regular basis... oh wait...
Thanks SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in turret |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.07.06 14:04:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 06/07/2007 14:03:43
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske If only Exploration sites, showed up in Local, gathered all together in the same predictable systems, popped in and out of stations and gates constantly, deployed combat drones despite all the warnings not to do so, had signatures the size of fat-assed CNRs, and generally behaved in as foolish a manner as possible, they'd be easy to find too.
Right, so to avoid being scanned we only need to do the logic thing: do missions in frigates, not using drones, change agent and corporation every mission, delete our presence from local.
It wasn't so much a "political comment" as a comedic one about how odd I think the comparison is. But yes, you should make yourself invisible in Local whenever you can. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Yasuki Orie
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.06 14:18:00 -
[13]
Mission gankers are the anti-concord. As long as every time you try to do a mission in low sec they automatically warp in and destroy you then mission running in low sec will be as common as pvp in high sec.
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.06 14:26:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske If only Exploration sites, showed up in Local, gathered all together in the same predictable systems, popped in and out of stations and gates constantly, deployed combat drones despite all the warnings not to do so, had signatures the size of fat-assed CNRs, and generally behaved in as foolish a manner as possible, they'd be easy to find too.
Also, to add to this, exploration sites also tend not to be able to see you in local or your ship or probes on the scanner and "respawn" somewhere else if they notice you.
Also, as was said you can get your scantime with exploration probes to under 2 minutes. What works vs missionrunners (although do not confuse this with 1 probing attempt = getting a result) also works for exploration sides. Maxxed skilled/rigged/implanted scanner pilots do not need "hours" to find exploration sites either.
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Pakalolo
Tha Shiznit
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Posted - 2007.07.06 16:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar please for the love of god make probes their own category in the overview so we don't have to have EVERYTHING display in order to scan for probes.
yes, please.
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.06 17:27:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Aramendel on 06/07/2007 17:27:34
Originally by: Leandro Salazar please for the love of god make probes their own category in the overview so we don't have to have EVERYTHING display in order to scan for probes.
How would you then *ever* catch someone with probes unless he is AFK? And I do not mean only missionrunners.
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slip66
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.06 18:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Yasuki Orie Mission gankers are the anti-concord. As long as every time you try to do a mission in low sec they automatically warp in and destroy you then mission running in low sec will be as common as pvp in high sec.
lol this was very funny to read :)
Originally by: StOrM ViPeR Theres a skill called surgical strike in game I've learned that it actually stands for Band of Brothers |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.06 18:51:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske If only Exploration sites, showed up in Local, gathered all together in the same predictable systems, popped in and out of stations and gates constantly, deployed combat drones despite all the warnings not to do so, had signatures the size of fat-assed CNRs, and generally behaved in as foolish a manner as possible, they'd be easy to find too.
Also, to add to this, exploration sites also tend not to be able to see you in local or your ship or probes on the scanner and "respawn" somewhere else if they notice you.
Also, as was said you can get your scantime with exploration probes to under 2 minutes. What works vs missionrunners (although do not confuse this with 1 probing attempt = getting a result) also works for exploration sides. Maxxed skilled/rigged/implanted scanner pilots do not need "hours" to find exploration sites either.
Pleas make your phrases a bit more clear, I can't get what you mean with this Quote: Also, to add to this, exploration sites also tend not to be able to see you in local or your ship or probes on the scanner and "respawn" somewhere else if they notice you.
Exploration sites dont see me in local? mayby you mean that I can't bee seen in local if I am in an exploration site, but that isn't true.
"respawn" somewhere else if they notice you
BTW here we are speaking of missions, not exploration sites.
A bit of truth about mission scanning by Kerfira:
Quote: It's actually really easy.
What you need is eyes on the ship you're hunting for, and a cov-ops with probes out (10au's most likely, but you can use the mission agent yourself a few times to see where he sends people).
When your prey warps off from the station to begin his mission, the time it'll take him to appear at the gate to the mission is more or less constant (within 5-15 seconds). You then need to time your cov-ops scan so the result of it appears just after your prey has arrived at the accel gate, but before he has used it to warp to the next stage..
If you time it right (takes a bit of practice), you can more or less gank mission runners at will
it is there, post 10.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.07.06 19:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 06/07/2007 17:27:34
Originally by: Leandro Salazar please for the love of god make probes their own category in the overview so we don't have to have EVERYTHING display in order to scan for probes.
How would you then *ever* catch someone with probes unless he is AFK? And I do not mean only missionrunners.
Inattentive people? There are tons of those around... And it worked before Rev2 as well, and back then besides needing to probe multiple times, you also had to do the triangulation thing...
Thanks SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in turret |
Yasuki Orie
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.07 06:11:00 -
[20]
Originally by: slip66} lol this was very funny to read :)[/quote
Funny but true, this thread should be sticky and someone from CCP should explain what the deal is.
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Kainite M'alachi
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Posted - 2007.07.07 09:36:00 -
[21]
i think it is rubish that you can be tracked down so easy! now if someone comes on here saying Carebear this and that and risk vs reward! they can shove it up there rear end due to being hypocrites as the risk is all on the mission runner and the gankers have no risk what so ever! (due to ship insurance and being able to turn up in far more econmical ships) and lets face it spend hours chasing a ded space? or spend a few mins scaning mission runners, gank, loot, sell rinse and repeat for quicker and very profitable rewards with a chance to randsom.
now ccp making it harder could be one thing yes ... but then again i would be in favour of having to train up for a module that makes it harder to be probed, something that in low level skill would be more like a jammer and be intimitent on success where as a lvl5 in the skill would make it more like trying to find a ded space... so not impossible but there would still be a chance. anyway enough of my rambling until its changed i wont be runing missions in low sec.
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.07 11:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Pleas make your phrases a bit more clear, I can't get what you mean with this Quote: Also, to add to this, exploration sites also tend not to be able to see you in local or your ship or probes on the scanner and "respawn" somewhere else if they notice you.
Exploration sites dont see me in local? mayby you mean that I can't bee seen in local if I am in an exploration site..
I was meaning it literary. The OP complained that it is easier to scan out players in missions than scanning out exploration sites.
With exploration sites you are dealing with a static, nonintelligent content which does not react on you.
With probing people you are not. Your target can see you (local, probes in scanner) and will flee if it is are attentive enough and is using the tools is has.
If exploration sites would act similary with a random despawn timer which increases the closer you get to them and which might still happen 1 sec before you open that hacking can the OP might have a point. Since they don't (and shouldn't) however...
Quote: BTW here we are speaking of missions, not exploration sites.
We are speaking of both, read the OP.
Quote: A bit of truth about mission scanning by Kerfira:..
Good point, can be countered by experienced runners by warping to a SS first though. Might be a good idea for CCP to fix that though by making the entry gate deadspaces as well.
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Inattentive people? There are tons of those around... And it worked before Rev2 as well, and back then besides needing to probe multiple times, you also had to do the triangulation thing...
AFK pleople. Not seeing a probe on your overview (and you can bet that *all* my overview settings would have them added) would require an "Inattentive" lvl which I would set equal to afk.
And before rev (not rev2) with the old probing mechanics you couldn't see probes on your overview either. Also, you did not need to probe multiple times, it was not randomly based.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.07.07 14:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Aramendel AFK pleople. Not seeing a probe on your overview (and you can bet that *all* my overview settings would have them added) would require an "Inattentive" lvl which I would set equal to afk.
Oh... I didnt even think about the implication that they would appear on overview. THAT they should not do. But it should be somehow possible to scan for probes without having to sort through everything in your scanner range...
Originally by: Aramendel And before rev (not rev2) with the old probing mechanics you couldn't see probes on your overview either. Also, you did not need to probe multiple times, it was not randomly based.
Uhm... Yes you did have to probe multiple times, as all probes had meaningful minimum scan deviations and you had to work you way down from long range probe to pinpoint probe. While now just need the faintest result with like a 20AU probe and can warp directly to the deadspace gate. Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) Thanks SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in turret |
Kulmid
Nubs. D-L
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Posted - 2007.07.07 20:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Uhm... Yes you did have to probe multiple times, as all probes had meaningful minimum scan deviations and you had to work you way down from long range probe to pinpoint probe. While now just need the faintest result with like a 20AU probe and can warp directly to the deadspace gate.
that's because of the way deadspaces work, not probes
I probe missioners on a regular basis. yes, it is easy. no, its not fun nor very pro*****ble. no one has expensive omgh4x fittings in low sec, I get an occasional ransom for 50-100m and othertimes its just tempestes fitted with t1 arty. and they lose next to nothing after insurance.
probing missioners is not the lucrative business its *****ed up to be. oh and try probing the same missioner twice, it will rarely happen. once they are blown up, they don't really like comming back
~~~~~~~~~~~ Success is the happy feeling you get between the time you do something and the time you tell a woman what you did.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's no greater honor than winning.[/q |
Cythrawl
Caldari Central Defiance
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Posted - 2007.07.07 22:21:00 -
[25]
Well, you could always do what our corp does...
Run missions and if someone is stupid enough to try probe one of us out, surprise them with a reverse gank.
Got a drake 2 days ago like that. Fully t2 fitted, which was nice. Most of the time they run like little girls before you can get points and webs on them.
=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Originally by: Black Torment OH GOD, DROWNING IN TINFOIL
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Tinian Singh
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Posted - 2007.07.07 23:15:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kulmid
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Uhm... Yes you did have to probe multiple times, as all probes had meaningful minimum scan deviations and you had to work you way down from long range probe to pinpoint probe. While now just need the faintest result with like a 20AU probe and can warp directly to the deadspace gate.
that's because of the way deadspaces work, not probes
Not true. Deadspaces ALWAYS worked like that. If the longer range probes still had MINIMUM scan deviations like they used to (1 AU+), it would be fine. Instead they now have a MAXIMUM of only a few tousand km. So every result puts you into the deadspace and such directly onto the gate. This is broken probes, not broken deadspace.
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.07 23:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Oh... I didnt even think about the implication that they would appear on overview. THAT they should not do. But it should be somehow possible to scan for probes without having to sort through everything in your scanner range...
Only way to limit what appears on the scanner is using overview settings. And what is selected for your overview appears on the overview.
And anyway, it's no real problem to look for probes on it currently. No need to go through every entry, just sort alphabetically and look for the scan probe names.
Quote: Uhm... Yes you did have to probe multiple times, as all probes had meaningful minimum scan deviations and you had to work you way down from long range probe to pinpoint probe. While now just need the faintest result with like a 20AU probe and can warp directly to the deadspace gate.
Was usually easier to warp around till were close enough for the most accurate probes. And a (rev) 20 au probe has next to no chance to get any result for a target in a deadspace. "Professional" lowsec missionrunner probers get an extensive bookmark net to get within 5 AU fast for a reason.
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Khutulu IV
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Posted - 2007.07.08 04:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Aramendel I was meaning it literary. The OP complained that it is easier to scan out players in missions than scanning out exploration sites.
With exploration sites you are dealing with a static, nonintelligent content which does not react on you.
With probing people you are not. Your target can see you (local, probes in scanner) and will flee if it is are attentive enough and is using the tools is has.
If exploration sites would act similary with a random despawn timer which increases the closer you get to them and which might still happen 1 sec before you open that hacking can the OP might have a point. Since they don't (and shouldn't) however...
So, just so I get it, a gigantic gate / plex that is just sitting in space is difficult to find...but a tiny ship that is moving around is easy to find? It all makes sense to me.
The bottom line is that exploration is relatively easy, it just takes a few minutes is all. However, probing out people on said missions is WAY TOO EASY.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.08 06:26:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Khutulu IV
The bottom line is that exploration is relatively easy, it just takes a few minutes is all. However, probing out people on said missions is WAY TOO EASY.
If you have the magic trick to find an exploration site in "a few minutes" I am curious to know, with all skill at 4, included cov ops and a rigged for speed cov opr locating a exploration site (not an encouter) require more time than "a few minutes".
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Tinian Singh
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Posted - 2007.07.08 08:52:00 -
[30]
Actually I found all three (yes I know thats a small sample size but meh I cba to do more) exploration sites I hunted so far in under 30 minutes. And that was using a scan-speed rigged recon, not even a covops. Of course, maybe it was just luck that all of them were near the inner planets of the systems, where they ended up in the overlap area between multiple quests.
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