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Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.11 09:21:00 -
[1]
Find a station where there is no outstanding buy orders can be filled for an item. Let's for the sake of discussion take Tritanium.
Basically find a station (try regional low sec space) where nobody is selling Tritanium at all. Do a buy order there for a single trit at 100,000 isk pu.
If this doesn't get filled immediatly, place a trit for sale at 10 billion.
Buy that trit yourself using station only range. Well done. You have just moved the market average yourself.
Would work the best if you have cornered the market on an item and filthy loaded.
Arrrggg market piracy...
Taikun -----------------------------------
For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good. |
Jennai
The Silent Rage R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.07.11 09:27:00 -
[2]
I think there's some mechanism to prevent this. one time I looked at the trit price graph in Oursulaert and it was broken because someone bought a trit at some stupid price, but I looked at it again a while later and it was back to normal.
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Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.11 09:29:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Taikun on 11/07/2007 09:28:48
Originally by: Jennai I think there's some mechanism to prevent this. one time I looked at the trit price graph in Oursulaert and it was broken because someone bought a trit at some stupid price, but I looked at it again a while later and it was back to normal.
One would hope... however I am speculating on how it could be done if one was so inclined.
Break it I say to see how it works. Then get CCP to pick up the pieces.
Taikun -----------------------------------
For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.07.11 09:36:00 -
[4]
First of all, market average is a bit more complicated than that, and you would have to keep doing it regularly to hold the average price up by a significant margin. Meanwhile, in your example, with maximal skills and standings, you still lose about 60 mil ISK for EACH of your "manipulations", which need to happend quite often (think "at least once per hour if not more") to have a noticeable effect.
Of course, if you think you can make more than 60 mil profit per hour (compared to previous prices), and nobody else can posibly undercut you... then sure, go ahead, do it. Otherwise, don't bother. You'll just lose money in the end.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.11 09:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akita T First of all, market average is a bit more complicated than that, and you would have to keep doing it regularly to hold the average price up by a significant margin. Meanwhile, in your example, with maximal skills and standings, you still lose about 60 mil ISK for EACH of your "manipulations", which need to happend quite often (think "at least once per hour if not more") to have a noticeable effect.
Of course, if you think you can make more than 60 mil profit per hour (compared to previous prices), and nobody else can posibly undercut you... then sure, go ahead, do it. Otherwise, don't bother. You'll just lose money in the end.
How is the market average calculated? I would have assumed they aggregated it over a period of time. 5 days would hold true.
I know for a FACT that selling a single megathron or Domi for 100k from my previous market research has a signifigant impact on the regional average for that day. This effect was viable several days after on the average tracking graphs.
I'd assume that the converse would also be true. Overspending for items would have a signifigant positive effect on the market average.
Hopefully someone with a spare few billion disposable isk will give it a go and post their results.
I am curious.
Taikun -----------------------------------
For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good. |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.11 13:01:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Taikun Find a station where there is no outstanding buy orders can be filled for an item. Let's for the sake of discussion take Tritanium.
Plagiarism 4tl. Hmmmm you seem to enjoy re-posting what others have pointed out under your own name as if you are some sort of genius. I've repeatedly mentioned this as possible, and sustainable, for years now. Even in one of your own threads quite recently. Oh well. You're not the first midget to attempt standing on the shoulder's of giants. You won't be the last. Enjoy your momentary flash in the pan.
Quote: The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
FastLearner
Fury Holdings Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.11 13:58:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Taikun Find a station where there is no outstanding buy orders can be filled for an item. Let's for the sake of discussion take Tritanium.
Plagiarism 4tl. Hmmmm you seem to enjoy re-posting what others have pointed out under your own name as if you are some sort of genius. I've repeatedly mentioned this as possible, and sustainable, for years now. Even in one of your own threads quite recently. Oh well. You're not the first midget to attempt standing on the shoulder's of giants. You won't be the last. Enjoy your momentary flash in the pan.
Took him three tries to even get the facts right on this one - two attempts in another thread (where he deleted his post now) then this one. I'm expecting his next post to be "How to buy 10 of an item at once rather than buying 1 item 10 times" - or something equally amazing.
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Ulrich Sternaxe
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:08:00 -
[8]
Can someone explain to me what's the use of this? So you can change the market average, so what? Who cares?
I hardly ever look at market average (just for checking that I didn't mistype my order) and base my orders on what I see in the current market and my experiences in the past.
I don't see any useful profit-making strategy coming out of this
private investors wanted - 8% fixed return per month (30.5 days) |
Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe Can someone explain to me what's the use of this? So you can change the market average, so what? Who cares?
I hardly ever look at market average (just for checking that I didn't mistype my order) and base my orders on what I see in the current market and my experiences in the past.
I don't see any useful profit-making strategy coming out of this
Not everyone knows though. For example you want to buy something via cheap buy order, if it says 80% under regional average, even non-informed person will become cautious. Same for selling. This is aimed to people who are not familiar with value of sold/bought item so fake average will trick them into under/over-priced sale/purchase.
_________ Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, T2 Components T2 Distribution: 8 regions covered |
Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe Can someone explain to me what's the use of this? So you can change the market average, so what? Who cares?
I hardly ever look at market average (just for checking that I didn't mistype my order) and base my orders on what I see in the current market and my experiences in the past.
I don't see any useful profit-making strategy coming out of this
Same reason folks climb mountains. Because it is there.
1/2 of is fun and games you know. Go forth and play about with things. see what you can do.
Taikun -----------------------------------
For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good. |
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:18:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe I don't see any useful profit-making strategy coming out of this
It's sleight of hand tactic. Most sheople do not exercise such savvyness in their sales or purchases. By artificially adjusting the "current regional average" you change what the market pop up warning reports to people. I.e. If you make it report 10M as the regional average (inflated average) your product at 9M looks good. Even if it only sells for 4M everywhere else. And like I pointed out, this is something I've mentioned repeatedly over the years. Nothing new to see here. OP's silence is a pleasant change.
Quote: The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shar Tegral OP's silence is a pleasant change.
Darn, spoke to soon.
Quote: The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:19:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Taikun on 11/07/2007 14:19:43
Originally by: FastLearner Took him three tries to even get the facts right on this one - two attempts in another thread (where he deleted his post now) then this one.
So what? I made an effort to get it right? What is your problem with my attempt and making sure I explained it in a fashion everyone can follow?
So what if it took me a couple of revisions? What's your point?
Taikun
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For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good. |
HawkBlade
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Taikun So what if it took me a couple of revisions? What's your point?
Be careful he does not decide to report you. It seems to be his favorite threat. Petition griefing(whining) 4tl I'd say.
Where Losers Find Real Power! 2007.07.11 00:49 I have asked CCP to investigate your eve mail logs for any usage of this language in reference to me and take appropriate action.
Taikun |
Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:36:00 -
[15]
^^^
What relevence whatsoever does this post have with this thread in the slightest???
I mean really. Keep on topic gentlemen.
Taikun -----------------------------------
For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good. |
LaVista Vista
Red Army Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: HawkBlade
Originally by: Taikun So what if it took me a couple of revisions? What's your point?
Be careful he does not decide to report you. It seems to be his favorite threat. Petition griefing(whining) 4tl I'd say.
Thats pretty darn low...
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Ulrich Sternaxe
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:54:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe I don't see any useful profit-making strategy coming out of this
It's sleight of hand tactic. Most sheople do not exercise such savvyness in their sales or purchases. By artificially adjusting the "current regional average" you change what the market pop up warning reports to people. I.e. If you make it report 10M as the regional average (inflated average) your product at 9M looks good. Even if it only sells for 4M everywhere else.
Well, maybe I'm underestimating the amount of players that are stupid enough to not look at other sale prices and look at the regional average instead when buying. I've underestimated the ignorance of some people before (like selling expensive good moving/selling items directly to buy orders at a much lower price than current sell orders, not so smart, but many people are doing it).
I just figured nobody would be stupid enough to buy something for 9 million while there's a sell order nearby for 4 million for the same product. But I guess some people don't look at the entire region market details when buying.
private investors wanted - 8% fixed return per month (30.5 days) |
Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: HawkBlade's Sig Where Losers Find Real Power! 2007.07.11 00:49 I have asked CCP to investigate your eve mail logs for any usage of this language in reference to me and take appropriate action.
Taikun
| Researched BS BPOs | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.11 15:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe I just figured nobody would be stupid enough to buy something for 9 million while there's a sell order nearby for 4 million for the same product. But I guess some people don't look at the entire region market details when buying.
Well, it doesn't ideally work if the low prices are in the same region mind you. Most people do bring up the entire region's worth of orders. However there are a few instances where you might want to keep prices "reasonable" in a region (for instance low volume orders) and you have to reverse compete against someone pulling this stunt. Or you may have to do this just to ameliorate effects from your own activities. Mind you, I'm getting a bit too close to a few tactics probably quite closely held to the hearts of many so I'll stop here before I get marked for deletion.
Quote: The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.07.11 16:19:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Shadarle on 11/07/2007 16:19:49 The problem with this thread and basically every other one started by a particular poster is that they all stem from a fundamental lack of knowledge of game mechanics.
If you don't understand how something works then you really shouldn't be trying to explain how to exploit it to other people.
The market graph/average does not calculate outliers, it removes them first. In order for anyone to manipulate graphs you have to have a high enough percentage of the order that your particular order is not seen as an outlier.
A single trit sale for 2 billion has two major problems.
1. It may not register as anything but an outlier. 2. It will cost you anywhere between 4 mill and 30 million isk in broker fees PER TRY.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
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Terminus adacai
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.11 16:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: HawkBlade
Originally by: Taikun So what if it took me a couple of revisions? What's your point?
Be careful he does not decide to report you. It seems to be his favorite threat. Petition griefing(whining) 4tl I'd say.
LOL, he threatened me with a report to moderators because I dared to have a difference of opinion.
The example of a single trit for 10 bil is ludicrous. Surely with the OP's marketing genius he could have come up with a more realistic example and what he hoped to accomplish by manipulating the market...
Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance. |
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2007.07.11 16:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe I just figured nobody would be stupid enough to buy something for 9 million while there's a sell order nearby for 4 million for the same product. But I guess some people don't look at the entire region market details when buying.
Well, it doesn't ideally work if the low prices are in the same region mind you. Most people do bring up the entire region's worth of orders. However there are a few instances where you might want to keep prices "reasonable" in a region (for instance low volume orders) and you have to reverse compete against someone pulling this stunt. Or you may have to do this just to ameliorate effects from your own activities. Mind you, I'm getting a bit too close to a few tactics probably quite closely held to the hearts of many so I'll stop here before I get marked for deletion.
I'll call off the men in black suits now. |
HawkBlade
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Posted - 2007.07.11 17:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Taikun What relevence whatsoever does this post have with this thread in the slightest???
It's actually a vote of confidence from your corporation and alliance. The eve mail I sent was to your CEO and the listed alliance diplomat. I directed them to look at your current forum activities and if possible make an action to you regarding their level of consent and agreement with those actions.
Since they've decided to forward you the eve mail, not posted a "he speaks solely for himself, and/or you haven't stopped or apologized... you are obviously presenting a position that your corp and alliance agrees with.
I felt that point should be clear in all of your posts so that people will understand the finer points of your political position. Especially when any political decisions are made regarding you and your associates.
Where Losers Find Real Power! 2007.07.11 00:49 I have asked CCP to investigate your eve mail logs for any usage of this language in reference to me and take appropriate action.
Taikun |
Matalino
Gallente Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.11 17:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Ulrich Sternaxe Can someone explain to me what's the use of this? So you can change the market average, so what? Who cares?
I hardly ever look at market average (just for checking that I didn't mistype my order) and base my orders on what I see in the current market and my experiences in the past.
I don't see any useful profit-making strategy coming out of this
Same reason folks climb mountains. Because it is there.
1/2 of is fun and games you know. Go forth and play about with things. see what you can do.
Taikun
Well in this case you will need 50-100 million reasons to replace the sales tax that you would lose in the attempt.
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Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.07.11 18:32:00 -
[25]
Since everyone's so damn insistent on publishing one of my favorite tactics, I might as well explain how to do it correctly:
Here's a (complete giveaway) hint--the costs (taxes and broker fees) to manipulate the average are directly proportional to the price per unit that you're pushing the average towards.
So, who's figured it out now?
MP --
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression! |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.11 18:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet So, who's figured it out now?
My turn to say hush.
Quote: The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.12 03:24:00 -
[27]
Originally by: HawkBlade
Originally by: Taikun What relevence whatsoever does this post have with this thread in the slightest???
It's actually a vote of confidence from your corporation and alliance. The eve mail I sent was to your CEO and the listed alliance diplomat. I directed them to look at your current forum activities and if possible make an action to you regarding their level of consent and agreement with those actions.
Since they've decided to forward you the eve mail, not posted a "he speaks solely for himself, and/or you haven't stopped or apologized... you are obviously presenting a position that your corp and alliance agrees with.
I felt that point should be clear in all of your posts so that people will understand the finer points of your political position. Especially when any political decisions are made regarding you and your associates.
You are clearly a troll in this thread.
Furthermore your 'private' evemail was forwarded to me because your eve mail was a complete waste of their time.
Finally, your usage of explict sexual language in that mail deamed my reporting of you to CCP for lewd conduct to be a no-brainer. Potty mouths like yours have no place in these forums, game, or in life in general IMO.
Taikun -----------------------------------
For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good. |
Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.12 03:27:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Motivated Prophet So, who's figured it out now?
MP
Well done.
Of course I never claimed to have done it myself. Infact if I may remind you of:
Originally by: Taikun I am speculating on how it could be done if one was so inclined.
So, is this an effective tool in the market pirates bag of tricks MP?
Taikun
P.S. Watch out for the flaming flamers. They don't like it when you post HOW to do something. Heck look what happened to me and I was just speculating. -----------------------------------
For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good. |
HawkBlade
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Posted - 2007.07.12 05:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Taikun Finally, your usage of explict sexual language in that mail deamed my reporting of you to CCP for lewd conduct to be a no-brainer. Potty mouths like yours have no place in these forums, game, or in life in general IMO.
I'm sorry that I called you a loud mouth bastard or a punk *****. Not. However there is nothing sexual explicit in that so... well if you'll lie on something so small you'll lie on something big just as easily.
Originally by: Taikun Furthermore your 'private' evemail was forwarded to me because your eve mail was a complete waste of their time.
I will enjoy war decing you. Current Target: Taikun - The Forum Griefer |
HawkBlade
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Posted - 2007.07.12 06:10:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Taikun I'll warn my corp, alliance and allies to watch out for that lone solo newbie corp pilot while we live in the firey depths of 0.0.
You shouldn't have told us. You now lost that element of surprise.
Hide behind them if you will. I will know and you will know. That sitting in YA0 quivering behind your mates is the best you can do. Current Target: Taikun - The Forum Griefer |
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