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Vitrael
Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.07.26 19:37:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Vitrael on 26/07/2007 19:41:07 The Target Painter Problem
Most players would agree that the usefulness of target painters is limited, particularly in comparison to the other types of electronic warfare. Given the popularity of tracking disruptors, ECM, and to a greater extent, sensor dampeners, itÆs surprising how rarely you see target painters put to use. IÆd like to explore why for a little bit. IÆll briefly cover how target painters work first. If you already know how target painters work, skip to post #2. To avoid the wall of text and get a summary, skip to post #4.
Target Painter Basics
Target Painter I- A targeting subsystem that projects an electronic "Tag" on the target thus making it easier to target and Hit.
Signature radius bonus: 25% Optimal range: 25km Falloff range: 50km Capacitor usage: 20 per 10 second cycle
Named variations of the target painter have increased range, falloff, and signature radius bonus as well as decreased capacitor usage, with the tech2 variant having optimal + falloff at 90km. In short, the target painters are a long-range EW that increases itÆs targets sig radius.
Applications of Target Painters
Increasing the signature radius of your target makes it easier to hit with turrets. In both turrets and missiles where the ammunition radius or explosion radius is greater than the target shipÆs sig radius, increasing itÆs sig radius will increase the damage. In ratting and mission running this is particularly useful because players using torpedoes or other large sig weapons can increase their damage against smaller vessels (particularly support cruisers) greatly. See the guide to electronic warfare for a specific, mathematical example.
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Vitrael
Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.07.26 19:38:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Vitrael on 26/07/2007 19:41:47 The Target Painter Problems
1. The increase in damage from a target painter is, except in extremely specialized cases, far less useful than the effects of other EW. Coordinated use of dampeners or ECM will completely nullify a target shipÆs ability to do damage or remote assist. Just a few tracking disruptors can reduce any medium or large turret boatÆs DPS to wet paper towel level. Target painters, even when used in large numbers, increase damage against most targets only marginally. Already, the module is seeming less useful in PVP than the others, but it gets worse.
2. Nobody needs a 25% bonus to their targetÆs sig radius when all their targets have a 500% sig radius bonus from their microwarpdrives. The vast majority of PVP ships fit a microwarpdrive. Blaster boats rely on them to get in range, tacklers rely on them to stay on their targets and avoid fire, autocannon kiters use them to stay out of web range, and many support ships fit them just to get range for safety. All of these ships get a 500% increase in their sig radius while their microwarpdrives are active, the equivalent of 20 target painters. Why would fleet want to waste 20 mid slots to gain a sig radius advantage that most ships will give them anyway?
3. Target painting specialized ships are positively awful at their roles. The two ships with target painting effectiveness bonuses are the Vigil (frigate) and Bellicose (cruiser). The vigil, despite its plentiful CPU and mid slots, has terrible capacitor troubles running multiple target painters, particularly if fitting a microwarpdrive. If it doesnÆt fit a microwarpdrive, itÆs a slow frig, which means itÆs a dead frig.
The Bellicose, in many ways, is the worst ship in the game. LetÆs compare the Bellicose with the other t1 EW cruisers: Arbitrator, Celestis, Blackbird (from this point forward abbreviated Bel, Bla, Cel, Arb). Continued in post #3...
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Vitrael
Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.07.26 19:38:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Vitrael on 26/07/2007 19:47:07 EW Cruiser Comparisons
Bonuses:
Bla: 20% ECM optimal, 10% ECM effectiveness Cel: 5% medium hybrid damage, 5% sensor dampener effectiveness Arb: 10% drone hitponts/damage, 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness Bel: 5% medium projectile damage, 7.5% target painter effectiveness
Slot configs, high/medium/low:
Bla: 4/6/2, 2 turret, 3 missile Cel: 4/5/3, 3 turret, 2 missile Arb: 4/4/4, 2 turret, 1 missile Bel: 5/4/3, 3 turret, 3 missile
CPU / Grid: Bla: 400 / 525 Cel: 325 / 575 Arb: 300 / 575 Bel: 250 / 575
Targeting Range:
Bla: 75km Cel: 65km Arb: 50km Bel: 43km
Velocity (mass and sig radius correlate directly):
Bla: 190m/s Cel: 190m/s Arb: 170m/s Bel: 215m/s
The Bellicose miraculously comes in with the lowest targeting range, lowest CPU, and is tied for the fewest mid slots (in EW ships, the most important). It comes ahead only in velocity, mass, and sig radius- lovely stats to have if you are a speed tanked ship. However, the bellicose will have all sorts of trouble running two target painters and a microwarpdrive, even while burst-driving only. You can balance this using the low slots for cap recharge, but then the ship has a tank like, again, a wet paper towel.
Additionally, if you try to speed tank a Bellicose, youÆll have a ton of fun finding you canÆt get out of heavy missile range- youÆre targeting range is 43 kilometers. ThatÆs it. Despite the fact that an unnamed t1 variant of your EW with no skills at all has a 75km optimal + falloff, you are limited to 43km. Note that the Celestis, whose damps also have 75km optimal + falloff, gets 60km targeting range, a pretty healthy amount to allow it to run in while still being somewhat effective.
Making use of the turret damage bonus is difficult. You wonÆt be able to fit artillery and youÆll be operating outside the range of medium autocannons, even with barrage. Combine these facts with the general uselessness of the target painter in PVP and youÆll probably start coming to the same conclusion that I did about the bellicose- itÆs gimped. When was the last time you saw someone flying a Bellicose?
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Vitrael
Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.07.26 19:39:00 -
[4]
In Summaryà
Target painters are less effective than other EW, their target sig bonus role is already filled by microwarpdrives, and target painting specialized ships are seemingly useless. I offer no suggestions, only criticism. I ask you, does the target painter have a redeeming quality in PVP that I am missing? If not, how do we save the target painter?
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Dromidas Shadowmoon
Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.07.26 20:16:00 -
[5]
*cough Huginn cough*
PS: Don't forget signature focusing. T2 painters should have at least 36% bonus and even with only a 3 in sig focusing my huginn boosts 47.25%.. quite significant really.
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Red Harvest
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Posted - 2007.07.26 20:19:00 -
[6]
True, the t1 ships that have the TP bonus are really not worth fitting it. BUT the minmatar recons can make the TPs awesome for teams (mainly because of the TP/webber combi)!
Huginn with 2 webber/2 TP teamed up with a rage torp raven is a fearsome pair. Huginns can actually turn dreads into BS-killers with very little trouble. (you should see the hits a dread can do to a BS with a huginn webbing/painting )
TP is really the ultimate DPS booster for teams because everyone fireing on the target takes advantage of the increased sig which increases the DPS done to the target quite a bit. Compared to the other EW modules it is a bit weak but its the only support module that affects the DPS of the whole team.
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Mr Krosis
The humble Crew Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.26 20:49:00 -
[7]
Honestly I don't think painters are that bad. You just have to view them as more of an offensive EW than defensive. Try to think of it more like webbing or warp scrambling. They don't physically imobilize the target, but from a tackle perspective they fit right in making them easier to target and easier to hit. I know you don't see them used a whole lot, but it doesn't mean they're not useful, just that people in general think they're not useful. People aren't always right.
Quote: 1. The increase in damage from a target painter is, except in extremely specialized cases, far less useful than the effects of other EW.
I disagree, and I don't think directly comparing a damage increase (offensive) to a damage decrease from other EW (defensive) is fair, apples to oranges and all. That's like saying why would anyone fit a dmg mod in a low slot when they could fit the far more effective tank modules instead. They do different things. The extremely specilized cases you mention, as far as I can see, is any time you're doing less than full damage due to tracking or missile exp radius. Do your turrets hit 100% of the time all the time? Their effectivness is directly related to how well you were hitting (with turrets at least). The worse your hitrate was, the more effective they are. Going from 10% chance to hit to 35% chance to hit is actually an increase of 250%!
Quote: 2. Nobody needs a 25% bonus to their targetÆs sig radius when all their targets have a 500% sig radius bonus from their microwarpdrives.
Every bit helps. People often don't leave their mwd on all the time. You say tacklers use them to stay on their targets an avoid fire. That directly contradicts your main point number 2. The comparison of 20 mid slots = 1 mwd isn't accurate either. Painters are stacking penalized so they will never (I dont think) hit 500% total bonus. They also multiply with each other so just 3 painters with nice bonus will bump the targets sig by about 175% even with stack penalty.
Quote: 3. Target painting specialized ships are positively awful at their roles.
Well this goes to the roots of the Minmatar ship characteristics. I'm sure being a Matari freedom fighter, you're more than aware of your races naturally low targeting range so I don't think comparing them to the other races is fair. I did check however and all of the other races EW cruisers have the longest targeting range within their race, which does not hold true for the Minmatar: the rupture can target further than the bellicose. Maybe that needs to be looked at. Even so, a skilled bel' with a decent gang bonus (L4) and a sensor booster can still hit over 90km targeting range. I noticed you didn't compare targeting speed which I imagine Minmatar have the best. Remember one effect of painters is helping your slower friends target faster, so a quick lock is an advantage.
As far as cap use that you should factor in the reduction you get from skills. So if you can fit the nice modules (best named), and have L4 target painting, your painters are using less than 1.3 cap/s each. I don't think any races EW frig can keep their mods running for any reasonable amount of time MWD or not. Sensor dampeners get it the worst (well maybe ECM now that BB doesn't get cap reduction bonus anymore) as any celesits/arazu pilot can tell you. There's a reason phased muon damps cost 10x as much as T2, and its not the lower cpu requirements . I do agree the slot layout seems poor. I sure wouldn't mind if they moved one of the bel's high slots to a med slot.
Now I don't disagree that painters are sort of the odd man out as far as EW, but they do have thier uses. I personally do use them in PVP, but no I don't fly a bellicose. I also use damps, but I don't fly a celestis. I'll admit I jump into a blackbird now and then, but what can I say, I never trained caldari cruiser 5
-- Mr Krosis The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
Vitrael
Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.07.26 22:22:00 -
[8]
Okay, tests show above poster is correct about TP stacking. Good post.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.07.26 23:19:00 -
[9]
Painters are fine as a standard midslot module like sensor boosters, scrams, webs etc.
But they suck as racial EW. Imho they are not even EW. EW is screwing with enemy electronic systems, and TPs don't do that. Plus they mainly benefit Caldari (Missiles) and Gallente (Drones), while guns are usually better off with a tracking comp. Yet they are the Minmatar racial EW. That is wrong in two ways.
Best solution imho would be to relegate TPs back to being general modules (which they kinda are anyway), and split RSDs into two modules, one killing lock range and remaining gallente EW, and the other killing sig res, and becoming minmatar EW. This would kill two birds with one stone, nerf RSDs and provide Minmatar with a useful EW.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.07.26 23:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Painters are fine as a standard midslot module like sensor boosters, scrams, webs etc.
But they suck as racial EW.
Completely agree.
Quote: Best solution imho would be to relegate TPs back to being general modules (which they kinda are anyway), and split RSDs into two modules, one killing lock range and remaining gallente EW, and the other killing sig res, and becoming minmatar EW. This would kill two birds with one stone, nerf RSDs and provide Minmatar with a useful EW.
I've thought about this some. I like the idea for the reasons you mentioned. Plus it seems "in-character" as a Minni EW--taking advantage of their signature and speed, facilitating the hit and run, and the ambush. The one problem I see is that such a module would really be teetering right on the edge of uselessness or uberness, sort of like ECM, with a nice balance hard to find. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
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William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.07.27 00:23:00 -
[11]
Or you could change the ECM bonus form a % bonus to a multiplier. Becasue of the nature of bonuses then you'd have a fully skilled bellicose giving the same effect to a ship as a MWD when equipped with 3 target painters.......
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Kamen
SRBI Circle 0f Two
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Posted - 2007.07.27 01:26:00 -
[12]
I agree with the op and slightly disagree with all supporting TP comments. TP suffers from "situationness", which is the same sickness Caldari are having.
How often in PvP does some ship smaller than a BS NOT have a MWD? If you are missing something, you are missing it because it moves at mad speed and it has MWD on, which makes it 5 times bigger anyways (cruiser-size for a ceptor). If your missles are likely not doing full damage because of the explosion velocity, and not because of the eexplosion radius.
Are there situations in which ECM becomes completely useless? Extremely few! Are there situations in which Dampening becomes completely useless? A few, when target already sent drones on you. Are there situations in which tracking disruption becomes completely useless? A few, when the target is a missle boat. Are there situations in which tracking disruption becomes completely useless? Well quite a few, when target uses MWD, or big as a house due to all extenders and shield rigs, and that is most of the time!
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Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.27 02:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Best solution imho would be to relegate TPs back to being general modules (which they kinda are anyway), and split RSDs into two modules, one killing lock range and remaining gallente EW, and the other killing sig res, and becoming minmatar EW. This would kill two birds with one stone, nerf RSDs and provide Minmatar with a useful EW.
While, admittedly, I haven't really considered the impact this would cause on PvP at large, I rather like this idea. And I stand to lose a fair bit by that change, as I fly a nanorsd curse.
It'd certainly put Minmatar back on the map for e-war, and sort of force all of us nutjobs with gallente ewar on all our ships to rethink our setups a bit.
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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.07.27 03:39:00 -
[14]
I believe the t2 torp nerf struck target painters for balance wrecking damage. The torps did indeed need a nerf imho, but I think in this case CCP went too far. They were pretty much the only thing that made painters worthwhile vs battleships and, due to smaller ships being reliant on speed-tanks, worthwhile in general.
Either boost the torps back up somewhat, though not to their previous levels, or increase BS sized weapon damage and resolution, meaning that such weapons in general will benefit from painters making them less situational.
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Irish Whiskey
Caldari The Malevolent
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Posted - 2007.07.27 04:08:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Irish Whiskey on 27/07/2007 04:09:33
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Best solution imho would be to relegate TPs back to being general modules (which they kinda are anyway), and split RSDs into two modules, one killing lock range and remaining gallente EW, and the other killing sig res, and becoming minmatar EW. This would kill two birds with one stone, nerf RSDs and provide Minmatar with a useful EW.
Why do you need to come in here and say RSD's are a bird to kill? This is a target painter thread. PS that solution would still have everyone sporting gallente. ganking lock range is primary function of damps, the resolution fixxxer is a little bonus.
Oh and OP: damps do not have a 75km optimal. pull your head out.
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Aleranie
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Posted - 2007.07.27 04:48:00 -
[16]
Increasing their sig radius also means your gang mates lock them faster. If your gang includes battleships against smaller targets, this can have a rather large effect in how the battle goes.
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Tyler Lowe
DROW Org Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2007.07.27 09:16:00 -
[17]
Target painters are "ok". I think they could maybe use a bump up to 40% base effect on best named and tech II, but they're useful as is.
As far as "fixing" Matar racial EW, I would rather see stasis webifiers become the primary EW before getting a replacement as horrible as a half ***ed damp. Nerf damps if they need to be, but leave that one off as a seperate issue that needs addressing. I don't want to see my ships' boni becoming the leftover side effect of trying to kill birds, with stones or otherwise.
The Bellicose is another matter altogether. Whoever designed that thing should be forced to fly only Bellicose in game until it's fixed. It's a terrible ship. It's probably the single best example of Minmatar "versatility" gone horribly, horribly wrong.
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Sir Wofen
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Posted - 2007.07.27 09:17:00 -
[18]
One thing that i feel I must add to this, Mini are not a race I could see using alot of Ewar.
They shoot things, and they do it well (Most PvP ships happen to be Mini IMO), so if they are abit weak in the Ewar I am more then happy about that. You cant be good at everything, and all the races have there weakness's.
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Dray
Caldari Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.07.27 10:01:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Dray on 27/07/2007 10:02:47
Originally by: Sir Wofen One thing that i feel I must add to this, Mini are not a race I could see using alot of Ewar.
They shoot things, and they do it well (Most PvP ships happen to be Mini IMO), so if they are abit weak in the Ewar I am more then happy about that. You cant be good at everything, and all the races have there weakness's.
That quote is a little to general for my tastes, theres a lot wrong with minmatar, more than just painters.
Back to the OP, maybe giving the tp a secondary effect in addition to sig, damps have 2 effects, why not tp's aswell. I know sig increases damage aswell as reducing lock time but its not really felt, in small or large engagements most of it boils down to "primary xxxxx, secondary xxxxx", and unless the engagement has been planned as opposed to on the fly then your tp ship is going to be hitting the target same time as everyone else.
For myself i'll stick to using the huginn as a webbing nano ship, really cant see the point of fitting a tp atm.
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Pzyklon
Resurrection R i s e
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Posted - 2007.07.27 10:44:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Pzyklon on 27/07/2007 10:49:19 I really like the suggestion the OP posted but how bout this instead of relegating TP to a general module and giving it one component of a (possibly) nerfed RSD, why not keep the TP as Minnie racial EW (with some increased range perhaps) and add the signature resolution component from an RSD while leaving the lock range penalty on an RSD.
This works kinda well in the grand scheme of things since the target wouldnt lose a lock on you leaving Minmatar with the only proper offensive EW.Also you would have to stay at decently close range (TP range) unless you want to attempt to have the module work in falloff. This would eliminate the hordes of snipers who fit RSD in their mids for funsies yes im talking bout armor tanking ravens
On the other hand with an actual use for a TP everyone wouldnt have to fit stacks of sensor boosters
-2 cents
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OneSock
Silentia Mortalis Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.27 10:51:00 -
[21]
I think it's mainly a PvE module really. Allowing a Battleship to hit a wider range of NPCs. I use one on my mission domi to get better hits from my large rails.
Next to useless in PVP. Think it really needs a bit of a boost. Make it 50% instead of 30%.
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Anticon Chor
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Posted - 2007.07.27 12:11:00 -
[22]
Remember that your TP benefits your drones as well as your team mates - and their drones too, presumably. People tend to forget this aspect of TPs. _____________________________ Who, me? A signature? Really? |
Psorion
The Nine Gates R i s e
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Posted - 2007.07.27 12:41:00 -
[23]
Sounds like some people not using TP's right. They are fleet/small gang weapons. Very helpful if your heavy support for bship snipers. Or your sniper squad fits 1 or 2 in the squad of 6-7. Makes a difference.
Stop trying to 'fix' everything.
Cloaked and AFK at a system near you... |
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.27 12:58:00 -
[24]
The main problem of TP is the same as the problem the tracking disruptor used to have, not that it isn't effective, but that a lot of people fail to see the effectiveness of a module, and don't use it properly.
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Stakhanov
Katana's Edge
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Posted - 2007.07.27 13:14:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Stakhanov on 27/07/2007 13:22:01 TPs are tactically useful , the problem is that they just don't compete with other mid slot modules. If you have mid slots to waste , 2 damps or 1 tracking disruptor (for cruisers) or sensor boosters (for BS) are more useful. A speed tanked bellicose can also use large shield extenders like a vaga , to make cap management easier.
Right now , their bonus on minmatar EW ships are not good enough to fit them , EW ships are fragile and need to break their target's offense and have a decent backup tank to survive. A web range bonus is so much better than TP bonus , and the vigil is the most useless EW frigate. It should have a TP cap bonus at the very least.
TPs are indeed situational , most excellent for instapopping tackling AFs and run before their blob comes. A single TP can help breaking BC tanks a lot.
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Vitrael
Stormriders Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.07.27 14:18:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Irish Whiskey Oh and OP: damps do not have a 75km optimal. pull your head out.
Hi troll! I highly recommend that you read my post before posting about it!
"75km optimal + falloff" means that optimal + falloff is 75km.
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Anubis Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.07.27 22:01:00 -
[27]
Bellicose and a POS with Citadel Torps.
Hurts.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Pac SubCom
A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.07.28 02:05:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Gariuys The main problem of TP is the same as the problem the tracking disruptor used to have, not that it isn't effective, but that a lot of people fail to see the effectiveness of a module, and don't use it properly.
How about a riddle: Minmatar module for use on Minmatar ships. And now what is that single thing which Minmatar do best? And where could the TP come into play? --------------- ∞ TQFE
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KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.07.28 03:46:00 -
[29]
Quote: 3. Target painting specialized ships are positively awful at their roles. The two ships with target painting effectiveness bonuses are the Vigil (frigate) and Bellicose (cruiser). The vigil, despite its plentiful CPU and mid slots, has terrible capacitor troubles running multiple target painters, particularly if fitting a microwarpdrive. If it doesnÆt fit a microwarpdrive, itÆs a slow frig, which means itÆs a dead frig.
This is true of all ecm frigs though..
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Maeltstome
Minmatar Caldari Navy Raiders Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.28 03:56:00 -
[30]
i believe target painters where invented as a solution to the problem of the matari not doing enough damage. can't say it made the situation any better.
P.s.
Id rather fit more web's on a huginn, gang or solo, they are more effective than TP's
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