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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
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Posted - 2012.01.13 01:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I've already taken both of you morons on... Whoa! What did I ever say to deserve this? I was trying to stay out of all this! And you had just liked one of my posts, too.
I'm not talking to you. Cambarus and Mfume went on a 20 page retardo post streak where they felt compelled to interject ******** baseless opinions that flew not only in the face of actual experience but also EFT. ******* morons.
Those two fuckwits are half the reason I'm so angry at the eve forums these days - the entire god damn thing is so centric around EFT and the ******* status quo that someone who actually ******* flies the ships and plays the ******* game is ridiculed for noticing that the masses have their collective heads up their ******* asses.
-Liang
Ed: And **** man, it has nothing at all to do with low sec but I don't expect a fuckwit that's afraid to fly a solo logi to ******* understand that. Its simply the way the god damn fights work you ******* moron. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
137
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Posted - 2012.01.13 01:34:00 -
[32] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:King Rothgar wrote:Minmatar have the best triage carrier imho but I am in a minority on that opinion. It is 25% squishier than an archon but it RR's 25% better in exchange. And a triage carrier's survival is based almost exclusively on the survival of the subcaps it is repping. It has basically the same tank as a thanny given it has the same slot layout. Not...exactly. A 25% resist bonus actually corresponds to a 33% increase in anything related to your hit points. EHP, local tank, remote tank all benefit from this 1/3 improvement. By contrast, a 25% remote repair bonus gives exactly 25% more. This is essentially the reason the Nidhoggur's RR-bonus was increased to 7.5% per level. I mention this mostly because you cited the Nidhoggur's old ship bonus. The recent buff mostly addressed this concern, and as you stated it comes down to whether you're prioritizing the survival of the capital or the subcaps. However, I would like to point out that most subcaps will have better resists than the Nidhoggur repping them, if only because they'll have more slots to fit resist modules. Amarrian ships may even have a resist bonus on top of it. Local reps are also less capacitor efficient than remote, and the triage carrier isn't exactly going to be getting any damage reduction from speed or signature radius... The next difference is slot configuration. An Archon has an extra low slot at the cost of a midslot. For triage, this basically means trading a Capacitor Power Relay for a Cap Recharger. The former gives a 24% bonus, while the latter gives only a 20% bonus. This ultimately means that an Archon will have 5.3% more capacitor per second. Not a huge gain, but certainly worth noting when people shell out 130 million isk to get the same effect from an implant. Next, there's the matter of fitting constraints. If you want to bring an armor tanked carrier to assist armor-fitted subcaps, the Archon can bring two local reps and three remote reps. While you're certainly not going to be running all of them full out, the additional rep lets you more quickly respond to target switches -- you can throw a rep on a target who needs it even while your other two are finishing their cycle. If a Nidhoggur tried to do this, it would need almost 6.5% more powergrid, even before fitting the last high slot. Speaking of high slots, the Archon fits an energy transfer. That energy transfer lets triage pairs and triads exchange capacitor to prepare for a triage cycle. It lets them assist subcaps when they're being neuted or need to neut (Bhaalgorns). And they get a range bonus to it, allowing those subcaps a degree of mobility to do their job that the Nidhoggur simply can't, even if it did have the powergrid to fit it. Capacitor warfare is a huge part of capital warfare. The energy transfer gives the Archon and Chimera a measure of defense. And on the subject of capacitor, the Archon is king. While all carriers possess identical base capacitor regen (leaving aside the CPR2 vs. CR2 issue), the Archon possesses a larger capacitor reservoir by almost 12500 GJ. Over a 5 minute period, that accounts for an additional 41 GJ/s the Archon gets to play with -- whether that be in repair, energy transfer, or sucked away by neutralizers. And finally, we get to EHP. The Archon gets more armor, so it gets more benefit from its hardeners. With two faction EANMs fitted, the Archon gets 230k more EHP. Swapping one of those for a damage control, that increases to 244k. That may not seem like a lot in the scale of capital warfare, but it's another 800 DPS the enemy has to deal over that 5 minute period.
A few things, first of all, you are right that I used the old bonuses. I actually haven't dropped the damn thing since the changes nor did I check the bonuses. I only noticed the extra PG and promptly fitted a third RR to it. With that third RR, the archon's burst advantage is gone.
The archon does have a slightly better capacitor due to slot layout as you noted, there is no denying this. However the greater rep amount from the nidhoggur more than compensates. You get a much better sustained RR amount than on the archon. I have often found myself only needing 1 RR sustained to keep people alive when flying the niddy due to this. So as a whole, the niddy ends up with more cap to play with since it is more cap efficient when RRing than the archon is.
You are correct that pretty much all the subcaps will have better resists than the nidhoggur (and possibly an archon too) and thus a better repped tank. The archon also has substantially more EHP. But this doesn't change the fact that in 30-50 man fleets where you would drop a triage carrier, there is a good chance you can tank the enemy fleet for the 5 minute cycle should they decide to call you primary instead of the subcaps. At which point a second triage carrier takes your place and reps you up. This alternating dual triage carriers setup is pretty standard I think and it makes those carriers tough to take down without SC's, even with the weaker tank on the niddy.
But you are correct that it this ultimately comes down to priority. You either put your own tank first or your fleet's. |
Aamrr
213
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Posted - 2012.01.13 01:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Hrm. Is my fitting tool out of date? I could have sworn you couldn't fit two local repairers and three remote repairers to a Nidhoggur. I lack the skills to fly it, so I'm afraid I can't make that judgment in game. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
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Posted - 2012.01.13 01:43:00 -
[34] - Quote
Rothgar, did you fit a shield transporter? I remember trying to fit a third armor RR to my niddy and it not fitting... maybe I did something wrong? Can you post your Nid fit?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
57
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:10:00 -
[35] - Quote
Rothgar, yes you can fit 3 remote reppers but no the pretty standard energy transfer on the niddy.. aaallmost with a 5% PG implant.. hmm wonder if you cant with a 6% though that of course takes the place of one of the cap implants.. dammit... nope 6% wont make it either. juuuust to much.
So.. how do you fit it? linky please?
[Nidhoggur, test]
Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I Capital Remote Armor Repair System I [Empty High slot] Triage Module I
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Capital Armor Repairer I Capital Armor Repairer I Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
is what i was looking at.. and that cant fit the energy transfer that the archon fits with ease. |
Aamrr
213
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
Those power diagnostics don't provide anywhere near enough capacitor. The Archon would gain a 19% capacitor regen for each CPR you swapped out. |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
57
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Those power diagnostics don't provide anywhere near enough capacitor. The Archon would gain a 19% capacitor regen for each CPR you swapped out.
I know, but was the only way those reppers would fit ^^ I did say i didnt like the nid, which is why i also is interested in his fit. |
Aamrr
213
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Take a look at an ancillary current router instead. You'll get better capacitor numbers. Still not a good idea, though. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
574
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
The ACR on a Nid gets competitive capacitor? I... am missing something I fear?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Aamrr
213
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Posted - 2012.01.13 02:36:00 -
[40] - Quote
Competitive? Absolutely not. Better than swapping out two CPRs for PDUs? Yes. |
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Mumtaz Khan
Nagrom Security Syndicate Flatline.
27
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Posted - 2012.01.13 05:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
snake03 wrote:Mumtaz Khan wrote:Amarr. Always Amarr. Unless you plan on using the carrier for WHs, the Archon is always the preferred capital. The Redeemer is also the best Black Ops because its bonuses are actually useful (should you actually decide to engage with it). Gallente would be my second choice, as people are usually pretty satisfied with having a Thanatos if there's not an Archon available. The obvious benefit of going Gallente is that you get the most use out of your drone skills with both the Thanatos and the Sin.
The Nidhoggur is an underestimated and versatile carrier, but I don't have enough good things to say about the Minmatar or Caldari carriers or black ops to make an argument about. Golem and Vargur have their merits if carebearing's your thing. Your saying that the 30% ECM jammer strength per level of the Widow is'nt useful?
No. It's not. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
265
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Posted - 2012.01.13 06:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Fuckwit.
-Liang
That's quite possibly the angriest I've ever seen someone become to a non-troll post. |
Aamrr
216
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Posted - 2012.01.13 11:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mumtaz Khan wrote:snake03 wrote:Your saying that the 30% ECM jammer strength per level of the Widow is'nt useful? No. It's not.
I must really be missing something, then. Care to explain? |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
58
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:54:00 -
[44] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Take a look at an ancillary current router instead. You'll get better capacitor numbers. Still not a good idea, though.
Didnt even think of that. yupp but still.. crap compared to the archon.. *sighs* damn you niddy! *laughs* |
Aamrr
220
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Posted - 2012.01.13 18:23:00 -
[45] - Quote
In the interests of fairness, I would like to clarify a point I made in my earlier analysis. I pointed out (correctly) that the Archon's larger capacitor buffer gave it an advantage over other carriers. This is true, but perhaps not to the degree I mentioned earlier since the larger capacitor buffer means that you'll spend a larger (absolute) amount of capacitor to activate your jump drive.
If the carriers enter combat at full capacitor my argument stands as written, but that's hardly the case when you're jumping to a combat cyno. The Archon still gets a larger capacitor buffer than any other carrier would -- but as it's been reduced to 30%, you're largely running on regen anyway.
Better to point out my own error than have someone else do it, I suppose. Fly smart, everyone. |
Mumtaz Khan
Nagrom Security Syndicate Flatline.
27
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Posted - 2012.01.13 18:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
If you want ECM in your black ops gang, put in a falcon. You don't want to drop in your billion isk paper-tanked BS to do it. You're not going to be engaging in fleet on fleet PVP, so more DPS is more useful than more EWAR. The only time you should bridge your black ops in with the gang is when you want to speed up killing things, and you're sure you're not going to get the **** smacked out of it. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
266
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Posted - 2012.01.13 20:54:00 -
[47] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:I must really be missing something, then. Care to explain?
It's a really expensive Scorpion. And if you're using it for jamming on bridging in, you have no opportunity to pull range. |
Aamrr
221
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Posted - 2012.01.13 21:29:00 -
[48] - Quote
More like a really expensive Falcon, but point taken. |
Adam Lees
BCBS Blue Crew Beef Stew
0
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Posted - 2012.01.14 06:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
In terms of super carriers, which one is the best dps wise? |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
267
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Posted - 2012.01.14 07:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
Adam Lees wrote:In terms of super carriers, which one is the best dps wise?
Nyx. |
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Kagan Storm
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
42
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Posted - 2012.01.14 12:37:00 -
[51] - Quote
Blake Walan wrote:I have decided to train for a carrier, and doing so will pick up blops and possibly maraude
whats a blop? My ego is the the size of my carriers jump range. |
Aamrr
223
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Posted - 2012.01.14 12:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
A recently declassified government project to create a Biologically Luminous Orbital Ptarmigan.
Or Black Ops. It depends on context. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
141
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Posted - 2012.01.14 16:51:00 -
[53] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Rothgar, did you fit a shield transporter? I remember trying to fit a third armor RR to my niddy and it not fitting... maybe I did something wrong? Can you post your Nid fit?
-Liang
It is indeed a shield transporter. You wouldn't believe how many guys I've kept alive by having one of those things on hand to cover that 1.6 seconds till the armor kicks in. And now it fits without having to do interesting things to the rest of the fit. You are correct that a third armor RR doesn't readily fit, I actually never checked before just now tbh. I've always favored that shield xfer to cover the delay between activating the armor RR and it actually taking effect. Still, it isn't terribly short. I think you could squeeze one on with some minor modifications to the cookie cutter fit. Something to tinker with I suppose. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
141
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Posted - 2012.01.14 17:02:00 -
[54] - Quote
I was right, it fits with a PG10. The meta/faction **** is not required. You can't fit a heavy neut in the last high slot but you do have some grid and loads of CPU left.
[Nidhoggur, hmm...] Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
[empty high slot] Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Triage Module I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
577
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Posted - 2012.01.14 19:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
Yeah but then you give up slot 6. It wouldn't be the end of the world to get just that extra oomph on some grid IMO. :P
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Limvala Adur
Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
1
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Posted - 2012.01.15 07:55:00 -
[56] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:I was right, it fits with a PG10. The meta/faction **** is not required. You can't fit a heavy neut in the last high slot but you do have some grid and loads of CPU left.
[Nidhoggur, hmm...] Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
[empty high slot] Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector Triage Module I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
I'm quite unexperienced when it comes to capitals atm, but I'd like to know (besides the already mentioned difference in capacitor capacity) is there any other meaningful difference between this and an Archon. I'm pretty much close to the point I have to make a choice, it's going to be either Min. caps (I like their looks a lot more) or Amarr ones. I know all there's to know about the cookie cutter advices, what I don't know is actual gaming experience. Plus, RND seem to only make Archon/Thanny videos so I can't even draw conclusions from good videos. |
Aamrr
225
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Posted - 2012.01.15 10:28:00 -
[57] - Quote
I already answered that question in great detail on page one. You can find it here.
As for RnK leaving the Nidhoggur out of their videos: There's probably a reason for it. See if you can find one in my post (I put several). |
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