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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate True Reign
234
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
we will call this The Alpha Problem, i have no problem with 1000 man fleets, large fleets are cool whats not cool is the fact that the best tactic that we have is to have ever one to shoot the same guy.
Show of support for getting dev time for fixing the Alpha problem.
we all know the HP buff did nothing to curb the Alpha problem
we know there's a large part of eve that hates the Alpha problem
we know there a large part of EvE that wish for a more tactic's filled game*
we know no one in EvE can agree on a way to fix this with out someone screaming IT R COULD BE EXPLOITED
so here is my idea to get the the Alpha problem to go away
ever one has to agree its a problem and get CCP to fix it
that's the hole of my plan, so lets stop throwing poo at each other long enough to get the game we play to be fun and not the 1 trick game it is now.
i know it hurts some of you to think of a new way to do battle, but whats the motto of eve "HTFU or go back to WoW"
this is not a place to talk about how to fix it this is simply a thread to get it looked at by the only people that can fix this problem the Devs I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh. I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
Jovan Geldon
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
282
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:whats the motto of eve "HTFU or go back to WoW"
Maybe you should listen to your own advice rather than whining like a little bitch |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
801
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
your tears are salty and warm
and if you expect us to believe if you are in a 1000 ship fleet you will refuse to shoot at the single guy who just jumped into you, you have a seriously loose grip on reason The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate True Reign
234
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
clearly you have chosen to go the route of the troll and over look the point of the post because it was not in giant neon letters
i am speaking of the only tactics there are in a large scale battle, the HAY GUYS EVERYONE SHOOT X. I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh. I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
417
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Look for that thread about how the more people locking onto one target, the slower the lock times become for subsequent enemies, then bump that. Ideas & Stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -áStatus: Going phishing. |
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
25
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
ya, alpha does suck as that's the only stratgey On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton. -áWhere the dripping patchouli was more than scent. -á It was a sun |
Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate True Reign
234
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Look for that thread about how the more people locking onto one target, the slower the lock times become for subsequent enemies, then bump that.
clearly i all ready have taken my point in that thread, and it is not going any where.
I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh. I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
193
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:ever one has to agree its a problem and get CCP to fix it
It's not a problem. You have failed already.
Mirima Thurander wrote:clearly i all ready have taken my point in that thread, and it is not going any where.
Take the hint. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39006524/DumbHiseccers.jpg |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
311
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Here's and idea to "fix" the "alpha" "problem".
Increase the hit damage of weapons across the board.
Reduce the hitpoints of ships across the board.
ZOMGWTF?
You won't solve the "problem" of 100 ships being able to one-hit a ship by doubling the ship's HP. The players will just hit it with 200 ships. And the more you do this, the more the problem spirals, and the more irrelevant smaller alliances become - and by smaller I mean alliances not being able to consistently field 200-300 people on a moment's notice.
Instead, acknowledge that "bring more" is a valid strategy and there's nothing you can do to stop people from doing it. Instead, you can make it way less effective without coordination. If 50 ships can kill one in a single shot, and you bring 200 ships and do nothing but focus fire, you will be wasting 75% of your potential. Killing speed-wise, you are no better than a 50 man fleet. |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
801
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Posted - 2012.01.12 03:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:clearly you have chosen to go the route of the troll and over look the point of the post because it was not in giant neon letters
i am speaking of the only tactics there are in a large scale battle, the HAY GUYS EVERYONE SHOOT X.
what possible alternative is there when you have a 1k ship fleet? when you have overwhelming firepower the only tactic is blowing the living **** out of the enemy
and usually nobody needs to say shoot, everyone does it on their own The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
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Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate True Reign
234
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Posted - 2012.01.12 04:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Mirima Thurander wrote:ever one has to agree its a problem and get CCP to fix it It's not a problem. You have failed already. Mirima Thurander wrote:clearly i all ready have taken my point in that thread, and it is not going any where. Take the hint.
clearly attempted troll 1/10 because i have to respond
i have a strong dislike for large scale Fleet fights, only because they are simple and have no tactics in them* i see something as broken in EvE when there is only 1 answer to a problem, and right now the only answer in large scale fleets is EVERYONE SHOOT X.
EVERYONE SHOOT X should not be the only answer to fight.
*yes i know there are many more layers in a fleet but ti still comes down to The Alpha Problem. they have logies = ALPHA THEM OFF they have ECM = ALPHA THEM OFF DPS = ALPHA THEM OFF you see there FC = ALPHA THEM OFF
The Alpha Problem.
I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh. I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
801
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Posted - 2012.01.12 04:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:
they have logies = ALPHA THEM OFF they have ECM = ALPHA THEM OFF DPS = ALPHA THEM OFF you see there FC = ALPHA THEM OFF
they call that tactics I believe The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Revii Lagoon
The Foreign Legion Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
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Posted - 2012.01.12 04:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Here's and idea to "fix" the "alpha" "problem". Instead, acknowledge that "bring more" is a valid strategy and there's nothing you can do to stop people from doing it. Instead, you can make it way less effective without coordination. If 50 ships can kill one in a single shot, and you bring 200 ships and do nothing but focus fire, you will be wasting 75% of your potential. Killing speed-wise, you are no better than a 50 man fleet.
Hence why goons are now switching to 1200's instead of 1400's. Double the rate of fire, better tracking, and when you have 100+ people firing at the same target it doesn't seem to matter what type of guns you are using, **** just dies fast.
As for the alpha issue, Why is it an issue? Have you seen the ABYSMAL rate of fire on 1400's? FFS Capital guns cycle faster than those things. Their overall dps is horrid, so if something can't be alphaed, aka caps (although that is debatable), super caps, structures ect. they take much longer to kill than say....autocannon hurricanes.
Artillery has a weakness, and that is sustained DPS, and fairly poor tracking. If you take away their unique aspects of high alpha strike, what makes them different from say hybrids, lasers, or missiles?
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Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate True Reign
234
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 04:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
no that's called having 1 answer, tactics are used to out smart the person your fighting
i hate to say it but a game of COD, being the pile of crap it is has more tactics in it then a large scale null sec fight.
EDIT
post @ Morganta I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh. I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
417
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Posted - 2012.01.12 04:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
It is madness to face off a horde with just 300!
No! This. Is. Spartaaa!
There should be ways to effectively alter the situation so that a few can hold off many. Ideas & Stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -áStatus: Going phishing. |
Revii Lagoon
The Foreign Legion Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
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Posted - 2012.01.12 04:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:no that's called having 1 answer, tactics are used to out smart the person your fighting
i hate to say it but a game of COD, being the pile of crap it is has more tactics in it then a large scale null sec fight.
Says a person who obviously has never been in a null sec alliance.....Or rather, just an alt who is to scared to post on their main.
"ALPHA FLEETS ARE BAD!!!!11!!22@@!" When you have never even flown in one, or against one. |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
801
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Posted - 2012.01.12 04:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:no that's called having 1 answer, tactics are used to out smart the person your fighting
i hate to say it but a game of COD, being the pile of crap it is has more tactics in it then a large scale null sec fight.
if I'm holding a shotgun to your head and 2 seconds from pulling the trigger and introducing you to god, why the hell do I need to outsmart you? by this point I think I already did.
you must really have a screw loose if you think eve combat is about the journey its about the kills I don't need to outsmart you if I out number you 10 to 1, the end result is the same, your ship gets converted into a KM and loot/salvage
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate True Reign
234
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 04:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Morganta wrote:
if I'm holding a shotgun to your head and 2 seconds from pulling the trigger and introducing you to god, why the hell do I need to outsmart you? by this point I think I already did.
no the out come of the next 2 seconds clearly rely on, your stance, the way your holding the gun, what side of me your on, and whether i'm injured or not.
given the correct training and the correct use of disarming techniques you could be the one losing.
I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh. I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
801
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 04:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:Morganta wrote:
if I'm holding a shotgun to your head and 2 seconds from pulling the trigger and introducing you to god, why the hell do I need to outsmart you? by this point I think I already did.
no the out come of the next 2 seconds clearly rely on, your stance, the way your holding the gun, what side of me your on, and whether i'm injured or not. given the correct training and the correct use of disarming techniques you could be the one losing.
ok, there's 999 other guys too....
point is if you are all alone and facing a thousand man fleet you already failed and they already out smarted you, the dance is over, all that's left is the death blow
even if your fleet is half their size you lost, not necessarily to superior tactics on their part, but certainly to sub par tactics on the part of your fleet.
if you don't know there's a fleet 1k in size roaming around you failed on the most basic level
in eve the tactical part of blob warfare happens long before the 2 forces meet on the field if its mutual you made a bad tactical decision, if its not mutual you still made a bad tactical decision
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
499
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 04:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
The only reason "Alpha" is a problem is because people in general are lazy and go with the easiest (not the most effective) way of doing things.
All ships shoot X is very easy for FCs to order and set up.
In a equal (in ship composition) battle between 2 fleets, the one using alpha will usually lose against a squad based setup (which still uses alpha but on a smaller scale, spreading alpha around, which is not the problem as described in the OP).
Alpha as a tactic (instapopping ships) will never go away because it is the most effective way to kill the enemy. Even if its 2 v 2, its better to focus on one at a time.
As for the "problem" of overkill alpha... not easy to fix without breaking the game.
Also, CoD is a bad comparison, as us meatbags die a lot faster than EVE ships. If it took 10 shots of a sniper rifle to down a target, you can bet your life that people would use the same tactics EVE null shows. |
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mkint
618
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Posted - 2012.01.12 05:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Look for that thread about how the more people locking onto one target, the slower the lock times become for subsequent enemies, then bump that. clearly i all ready have taken my point in that thread, and it is not going any where. So, you're admitting to cross-posting? Even though it's against the forum rules? Sad, sad day. |
ASadOldGit
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
92
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Posted - 2012.01.12 06:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
There are a few good arguments in here, and I'm hardly in a position to dispute them, but this prompted me to look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_tactics, and compare it.
I would guess that "Force concentration" is what people are complaining about, but it would be interesting if some of the other tactics were more viable in this game. Obviously, things involving weather or terrain don't really apply to a space environment (and hiding behind asteroids and using "smoke-screens" of some kind would involve line-of-sight calculations which people have argued against in other threads).
"Camouflage", I guess, has transformed into cloaking, but to be consistent with that idea, if I'm "found", I can be "lost" again if I use the right tactics. So why can't I cloak if someone has target-lock on me? I'm technically harmless while cloaked, right? (I'm sure someone will come up with a gameplay reason why that would be "overpowered", but that's just an example.)
"Deception" would be interesting - what if I could disguise myself as blue temporarily and warp into the middle of an enemy fleet - surprise! Or disguise myself as an asteroid, as has been mentioned in other threads.
"ECM" you all know and love - I'm sure 200 Falcons dropping in to say "Hi" are welcomed with open arms! A variation on that though, is radio jamming - what if someone could disrupt the enemies fleet chat? (everyone would go to voice/TS3, etc, but it would certainly make things interesting. Perhaps too disruptive for a computer game, though, which is hardly a life or death situation...)
"Flanking" is something that could be interesting - is it possible to do that in EVE? It says the main goal of flanking is to restrict movement, which I suppose the bubble does now.
A futuristic equivalent of fortifications could be the projection of a force-field around whom you suspect to be the alpha-target - something projected by logis for example, that can absorb enormous amounts of firepower, perhaps blocking out-going weapons fire, and having longish cycle times, to balance it. Would that force/encourage the selection of multiple alpha-targets by the other fleet, perhaps with bluffing attacks on false-alphas so logis protect the wrong target? (Clarification: a force-field prevents damage, whereas a logi heals damage already done, therefore it's different to just having extra logis) My container is NOT imploding! It's just a bit upset that it only sees cheap crap. |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
801
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 06:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
ASadOldGit wrote:
"Flanking" is something that could be interesting - is it possible to do that in EVE? It says the main goal of flanking is to restrict movement, which I suppose the bubble does now.
well, I guess that would be one of the goals of flanking, but flanking has many uses (none of which properly apply to eve) flanking can restrict movement, but it also serves to give the attacker several other advantages such as cutting off escape (goes to movement restrictions) cutting supply lines, the ability to attack on an undefended side of the enemy thus splitting their fire.
without terrain and LOS restrictions flanking becomes somewhat ineffective in closer quarters, however it still works to a degree in EVE, say for instance if you split the fleet and set up a camp ahead of where the enemy fleet is heading, or to hide your numbers from him or to cut off his escape, it just rarely happens in the same system, so you might have to make several jumps to actually get in position a number of systems away to have an effective flanking maneuver in eve The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
63
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Posted - 2012.01.12 07:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
OP don't like big fights, don't get in to big fights. ya just warp away and go find the fight you like. It's out there go get it. there some people want huge epic ships Michel Baying every were why do they not get to have it?
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pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
288
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Posted - 2012.01.12 07:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
you will never be able to avoid something like that only thing CCP could do , and personally i think it will probably never happens is to introduce Line of sight and Line of Fire, coupled with a workable system of formation flying It will mean that fleets will become much smaller because it will be impossible to co ordinate 1000 ships and pilots by only 1 fleetcommander Instead you will have alot of smaller fleets with their own subcommander , even they take their orders from a overall fleetcommander who tries to co ordinate their movement and can use a new tool, sort of battlefield projector to co ordinate his fleets , the snap second descisions on the actual battlefield will be taken by the local subfleet commander It also means that fleet battles will be much more fluid and victory goes to the one who can move his fleets and capital assets in the right position at the right time and not to the one who brings the most ships with him
But this will not happen , server limits and probably alot of opposition from the current nulsec alliances will prevent this ever to happen I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Mal Mandrake
Procellum Militis Veneratio
10
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Posted - 2012.01.12 07:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
Seriously another person screaming about "tactics and strategy"
Strategy = Focus fire guys, if we all fire at the same guy we can down his ship fast.
Tactic = Ok we will sit at this gate and fire at what comes through.
Whine = I get killed by effective strategy and tactics.. this game sucks.
You know, I'm largely a carebear and still think you are a ***** <-- slang term for vagina
-Mal |
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
770
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Posted - 2012.01.12 07:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
Strategy should be more important than who can bring the most ships, and thus alpha the fastest. |
Ris Dnalor
Fleet of Doom Psychotic Tendencies.
156
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Posted - 2012.01.12 07:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
If the OP is trying to make it so that people are rewarded for spreading fire to more and different targets simultaneously, rather than a bland, dull, list of "player A is primary" and "Lock Player B"..... "Player A is down, all guns on Player B, Lock Player C" etc etc. ---> then I agree something should be changed.
It's not exciting, it's not requiring of much in the way of tactics, or even thought. And people often die first in fleet battles because of the name they chose, or the random whim of the opposing FC, rather than any tactical error they might've made.
There have been many suggestions over the years. I've even made some of my own ( which were later shown to me to be horribly flawed ). But the OP isn't asking to debate on HOW to change it, just whether or not you think it should be changed.
I think it should be changed --- if it can be.
I imagine a fleet of 100 folks that are required to target 5 to 10 different folks simultaneously in order to optimize their damage. Now that would be an interesting situation to FC.... byt hat I mean you'd have to have a heirarchy to the command, the fleet would have to be broken down into squads, and each squad would need to be organizing their own targets.
I like it. I'm just not sure how the best way to achieve it would be. But that's a matter for another thread.
+1 OP for content, though your delivery is costing you some support I think.
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Valei Khurelem
138
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Posted - 2012.01.12 07:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yes that's right, more people bitching about someone who plays the game differently from them.
Welcome to EVE. |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
195
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 07:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
ASadOldGit wrote:A variation on that though, is radio jamming - what if someone could disrupt the enemies fleet chat? (everyone would go to voice/TS3, etc, but it would certainly make things interesting. Perhaps too disruptive for a computer game, though, which is hardly a life or death situation...)
You have clearly never sat in a major fleet where SUDDENLY CHEETAHS and half your fleet crashes and your voice server is DDOS'ed to hell and gone, along with the 3 backup voice servers.
Pretty much what you're talking about, and damned effective.
Mirima Thurander wrote:i have a strong dislike for large scale Fleet fights, only because I have never run one and don't know what goes into them at all.
Fixed that for you. Don't blame CCP for your ignorance. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39006524/DumbHiseccers.jpg |
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