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seany1212
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
67
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Posted - 2012.01.13 09:34:00 -
[151] - Quote
Hecatonis wrote:DarkAegix wrote:Focus firing really should be changed so it is not the only viable tactic for viable fleet fights.
Whether that's a logistics nerf in addition to restricted targeting, a form of space 'terrain' to stop ships sitting in huge blobs where every ship can readily fire at every other ship, fortress shield thing to defend your fleet or split another, or any other number of crazy schemes, fleet combat needs to have strategic depth similar to an RTS, and less like whack-a-mole. focus firing isn't the only viable tactic though. just because its widely used doesnt make it good. lets have a fake fleet fight a nice 500vs500, for simplicity sake lets say they are all the same on both sides they can lock instantly and follow orders without problem fleet 1 lazy FC only call one primary at a time, fleet 2 splits fire between 2 primaries first round fleet 1 losses 2 ships, fleet 2 loses one second round fleet 1 has lost 4 ships fleet 2 has lost 2 third round fleet 1 has lost 6 ships fleet 2 has lost 3 see the problem? fleet one is focusing fire and is loosing very fast. Now if you want to get really efficient then take a fight like this same fleet but this time fleet two splits their ships into 10 different wings each with their own commanders directing fire (it would be silly to expect one person to direct 10 different wings at the same time) and one FC commanding movement of the fleet as a whole and special "priority" targets. first round fleet 1 looses 10 ships fleet 2 loose 1 second round fleet 1 has lost 20 ships fleet 2 has lost 2 third round fleet 1 has lost 30 ships fleet 2 has lost three 50 ships firing on one target will make short work of that target you are then not wasting so much damage on over kill. this will be the third time i say this but i really needs to be said again, focus firing is bad and should be stopped.....at a player level.
I question your mathematical intelligence , in that terrible scenario you used as an example assuming no external factors, exact same dps and tank, it would take fleet 1 twice as long to lose those 2 ships as fleet 2 losing its single ship, and this is where the problem lies, length of time taken to take down that ship, it matters because the longer you take, the faster logistics can get a lock on and try to cut out the incoming dps and rep it back up again, this is everyone shoots X, then Y, because the entire fleet can practically insta-pop it before logistics even get a look in, the only way you'd change that would be to remove reps as a cycle and make it a continuous stream/time.
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March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
110
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Posted - 2012.01.13 09:52:00 -
[152] - Quote
Hecatonis wrote: Now if you want to get really efficient then take a fight like this same fleet but this time fleet two splits their ships into 10 different wings each with their own commanders directing fire (it would be silly to expect one person to direct 10 different wings at the same time) and one FC commanding movement of the fleet as a whole and special "priority" targets.
if only alpha from 1 wing can instakill target. Let's say you have 10 ships in wing. Not sure they will blow target. Then logistics can work and next alpha will need to kill almost helthy target.
this is the main problem with splitting fire. Distance, tracking speed, resistances.... Many things do matter here.
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DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
775
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Posted - 2012.01.13 10:00:00 -
[153] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:DarkAegix wrote:Focus firing really should be changed so it is not the only viable tactic for viable fleet fights. Let me introduce you to the concept of the bomb. Let's hope TiDi makes them useful! |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
510
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Posted - 2012.01.13 10:02:00 -
[154] - Quote
I see them working just fine rather often. |
Smendrik Von'Smendle
Xun Armaments Corporation
0
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Posted - 2012.01.13 12:16:00 -
[155] - Quote
I have thought about this issue for awhile.
1 thing I would like to see is a concept I call "Negative feedback".
If a reppers target happens to explode the module(s) that were repping the destroyed target take damage not unlike a T2 mining crystal, or worse.
If a reinforced/triage mode reppers target gets destroyed I would say that the module should go pop.
The other idea I have been thinking about is sorta like a temp invulnerbility module. You turn it on and for 1 cycle you absorb all damage after the cycle all associated slots (mid for shield, low for armor) are destroyed and your shield/armour count is 0.
To me this gives more options for repping/dps ratios and of course with anything number related can certain be tweaked.
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Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
261
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Posted - 2012.01.13 12:58:00 -
[156] - Quote
Basically the socalled "alpha problem" is the result of a concious game design descison thet limits offensive output of any given ship (excluding doomsdays) to a level far below the effective hitpoints of said ship. If you were to revert that descision, EVE would be a totally different game.
This is also known as attrition mechanics in contemporary operational research that the worlds militarys conduct on a daily basis. The principle is rather simple:
- If the attacker - on average - kills less than one opponent (multiple hits required to take down the target), it will always pay off to concentrate force on each target to take it down as quick as possible, resulting in the "alpha problem", aka blobbing.
- If the attacker - on average - kills equal or more than one opponent(a single hit will kill one or more targets (precision strike, area of effect weapons)), concentration of force will not enhance combat effectivenes, but may lead to taking heavier losses, which is not desirable, leading to dispersion and decentralization of forces.
To counter the "alpha problem" aka blobbing, you need to reduce the effective hitpoints or increase damage output to a level found in modern naval battles (a single misslie or torpedo sinks the ship), so that if you hit a target you will kill it.
Now this would ofc open up a whole new can of worms, rendering buffer and active hard tanking and remote repair obsolete, and increasing the necessity of speed, sig and ewar tanking. A whole new set of tactics would also need to evolve. in 1 v 1 engagements for example, the one who shoots first would always win, rendering missile systems and drones at a serious disadvantage compared to guns with current mechanics.
In conclusion, solving the "alpha problem" to a level where concentration of force would no longer pay off, would neccessitate a total rewrite of the eve combat system, and rebalancing every ship in the game. In short, a mammut task. |
Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate True Reign
247
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Posted - 2012.01.13 16:06:00 -
[157] - Quote
so there's 4 main trains of thought going in this thread so far
1 - agrees its broken
2 - dose not think its broken
3 - is STILL suggesting ways to fix it even tho its been stated not to
4 - trolls, meh...
so yea, i wonder if i could get a forum mod to come in and clean up the thread. I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh. I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
Hecatonis
Ascension Manufacturing
49
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Posted - 2012.01.13 16:43:00 -
[158] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Hecatonis wrote: Now if you want to get really efficient then take a fight like this same fleet but this time fleet two splits their ships into 10 different wings each with their own commanders directing fire (it would be silly to expect one person to direct 10 different wings at the same time) and one FC commanding movement of the fleet as a whole and special "priority" targets.
if only alpha from 1 wing can instakill target. Let's say you have 10 ships in wing. Not sure they will blow target. Then logistics can work and next alpha will need to kill almost helthy target. this is the main problem with splitting fire. Distance, tracking speed, resistances.... Many things do matter here.
it was 10 wings of 50 ships. the example was a hyper simplified one to show that focused fire with a limited set of primaries is a very inefficient way of doing it.
the goal is to not instapop a ship but to take them out in one to three shots. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
512
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Posted - 2012.01.13 16:51:00 -
[159] - Quote
One shot sounds like "instapop". Three shots sounds like "oh dear, their logis outrep your damage, so sad". |
WuMaTih
League of Gentlemen Controlled Chaos
7
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Posted - 2012.01.13 16:54:00 -
[160] - Quote
remove logistics from game only way to fix it. |
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supersexysucker
Uber Awesome Fantastico Awesomeness Group
32
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:12:00 -
[161] - Quote
You want to know how you "fix it"... line of sight.
Once everyone can't just target and shoot one guy with out hitting others... well, now it is target whoever is near you, or you have a line of sight on, blobs are also harder to use as you just have 10000 of your ships hitting eachother...
Fixed it all!
Blobs now need skill to use Players now need skill to shoot Hard to alpha as again line of sight in large fights will cause most shots to hit someone else. No need to reduce HP or change guns.
Now give logis line of sight... O man, now you have fun and lolz, if a RR hit's an enemy ship and reps him, lol.
O crap forgot, brings a hole new aspect to the game, "meat" shields!
Also makes formations (if they ever get in the game) very useful. Small gang pvp changes, as you can take hits for another ship if it is going down...
Yes lowsec and HS this would cause some issues with current aggression mechanics but...
I can't give the perfect idea =p |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
237
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:37:00 -
[162] - Quote
supersexysucker wrote:line of sight.
If we abstract ships to spheres 1 km in diameter (a gross over-estimation of how big shps are), and assume a distance of 70 km (common engagement range for alpha fleets), you get an effective 0.81-¦ angle of field of view that that ship occupies. In a 45-¦ field of view (something like half your screen), you can fit 2172 of those ships (unless my math serves me wrong).
Of course, 2000 ships wouldn't be able to cram themselves that way in a perfect firing line (or surface), but a few hundred would -- and your "fix" would be rendered pointless.
Line of sight is just impractical for a space game since space is so friggin empty you can see everything. Not to mention the line of sight calculations are not trivial at all, especially because the ship models are not simple spheres like what I reduced them to. The calculations to see whether a shot passed between the two panels underneath a Maelstrom would be very difficult -- and doing thousands of these (8 per Maelstrom, of which there can be hundreds) would create the ultimate lagfest of doom.
So, no. Line of sight combat does not work as a mechanic in Eve.
Edit: and regarding "meat shields":
How easy do you really think it is to position yourself in that few degrees wide angle in just the right position to block shots when you are piloting a ship that moves 2000 mph (894 m/s) and masses more than 11 million kg (250,00,000 lbs on Earth)? Very. Hard. What about when both the ship you are protecting and its attacker are both moving at similar speeds, and your ship has a weird irregular shape? Nigh impossible.
Those numbers are for a meat shield Maller, by the way. |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
198
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:43:00 -
[163] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:so yea, i wonder if i could get a forum mod to come in and clean up the thread. Removing posts you don't agree with isn't cleaning. Next time, don't open idiotic threads and this won't happen. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39006524/DumbHiseccers.jpg |
Jan'tor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
21
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:44:00 -
[164] - Quote
hi I'm from wow, just here to tell you wow pvp is often all about alpha too
well, bye |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
512
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:47:00 -
[165] - Quote
Mirima Thurander wrote:so yea, i wonder if i could get a forum mod to come in and clean up the thread. It could be cleaned up by removing it in its entirety. |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
238
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:48:00 -
[166] - Quote
Jan'tor wrote:hi I'm from wow, just here to tell you wow pvp is often all about alpha too
well, bye
It's a tactic used in Guild Wars (called "spiking" there) and doubtlessly other MMOs as well. Call it remote rep, healing, or whatever you want, it makes spikes/alpha necessary. However, sometimes hitting their whole team at once is the right strategy.
What the issue in Eve is is that, in the absence of remote rep, it is far easier to coordinate a "primary X; primary Y; primary Z" fleet, and no real advantage to tactically spreading fire. |
supersexysucker
Uber Awesome Fantastico Awesomeness Group
32
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Posted - 2012.01.13 17:59:00 -
[167] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Dumb Stuffz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcA5g59Zsg
Won't work. LOS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WERqUb0G6vQ
LOL WUT.
Ya, LoS never would work ever, cause, everyone had a 100% clear shot in all those correct?
Sub caps were all cool ya?
Also maller? lolwut. I was more in the carrier level here (at least BS) taking like DD hits rather than the super cap...
Not some maller covering a ceptor rofl or something dumb.
Also I never said that was the hole idea behind it, I said it opened it up.
I mean really, you think the fleets in those vids would have taken 0 FF damage with LOS? You really think you could alpha one cane if everyone did not fire at the sametime?
Idk.... looks like to me you would have FF damage, as well as, how are you gona hit one on the back side or in the middle with 0 shots hitting any other ship? lol come on.
Talking about a maller just shows us you have to think a blob is 10 people lol. |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
199
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Posted - 2012.01.13 18:06:00 -
[168] - Quote
supersexysucker wrote:Sperg. And here I thought the level of intelligence in this thread couldn't go any lower. Bravo. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39006524/DumbHiseccers.jpg |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
513
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Posted - 2012.01.13 18:06:00 -
[169] - Quote
So, uh, "supersexysucker", have you ever done any programming whatsoever? |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
238
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Posted - 2012.01.13 18:09:00 -
[170] - Quote
supersexysucker wrote:Petrus Blackshell wrote:Dumb Stuffz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcA5g59ZsgWon't work. LOS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WERqUb0G6vQLOL WUT. Ya, LoS never would work ever, cause, everyone had a 100% clear shot in all those correct? Sub caps were all cool ya? Also maller? lolwut. I was more in the carrier level here (at least BS) taking like DD hits rather than the super cap... Not some maller covering a ceptor rofl or something dumb. Also I never said that was the hole idea behind it, I said it opened it up. I mean really, you think the fleets in those vids would have taken 0 FF damage with LOS? You really think you could alpha one cane if everyone did not fire at the sametime? Idk.... looks like to me you would have FF damage, as well as, how are you gona hit one on the back side or in the middle with 0 shots hitting any other ship? lol come on. Talking about a maller just shows us you have to think a blob is 10 people lol.
In those videos you showed there may have been a few (less than 10) shots that would have hit friendly fire because of LoS. Ships are tiny compared to the distances between them. Get in one of those battles and use the "Look At" function on any ship to see just how wide of an open window it actually has to fire. Looking at battles from far away doesn't tell you anything.
I picked the Maller because it is a reasonably brick-ish ship that can actually move. If you want a bigger example, I could talk about the Tempest or something, but it's the same issue with a much larger mass. Please explain to me how a carrier moving at 70-80 m/s is ever going to block anything on purpose to save an ally.
No, 10 people is a small gang. I have been in hundreds vs hundreds fleet fights, been blobbed by 30-40 Hurricanes all shooting me at once, and other assorted fun large fleet things. You are in a hisec training corp. Please shut up before you make yourself sound even dumber. |
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Jan'tor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
21
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Posted - 2012.01.13 18:19:00 -
[171] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Jan'tor wrote:hi I'm from wow, just here to tell you wow pvp is often all about alpha too
well, bye It's a tactic used in Guild Wars (called "spiking" there) and doubtlessly other MMOs as well. Call it remote rep, healing, or whatever you want, it makes spikes/alpha necessary. However, sometimes hitting their whole team at once is the right strategy. What the issue in Eve is is that, in the absence of remote rep, it is far easier to coordinate a "primary X; primary Y; primary Z" fleet, and no real advantage to tactically spreading fire.
there is literally no difference between "jam the zealot, primary the guardian" and "hex the mage, sit on the priest"
none |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
238
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Posted - 2012.01.13 18:24:00 -
[172] - Quote
Jan'tor wrote: there is literally no difference between "jam the zealot, primary the guardian" and "hex the mage, sit on the priest"
none
I never played WoW, so that beats me, but it sounds about right. I was drawing a parallel to Guild Wars, where there are some "spread fire" tactics that are useful, and sometimes spreading fire is the best way to prevent the enemy from doing useful things. Ignoring everyone else to focus on one guy could let them do some long casting-time stuff that could wreck you (not going into details because it's not worth it). |
Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate True Reign
248
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Posted - 2012.01.14 07:55:00 -
[173] - Quote
large fleets are cool whats not cool is the fact that the best tactic that we have is to have ever one to shoot the same guy. I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh. I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
515
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Posted - 2012.01.14 10:10:00 -
[174] - Quote
And your "pipedream" won't happen until CCP removes logistics entirely from the game, and even then the fleet concentrating on taking down the other fleet one by one instead of trying to take out everyone at the same time by having everyone shoot their own target, will win.
Give up. Or fly bombers, and realize that you're using alpha here as well. |
Gripen
478
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Posted - 2012.01.14 15:24:00 -
[175] - Quote
To Lord Zim
OP talks about problem. Other people make suggestions about logistics and bombers while they have nothing to do with it. You correctly state that they are wrong and then say that problem is thus unsolvable. Makes sense... not.
There are dozens of different methods that would solve focus fire problem ("Alpha problem" is quite misleading name imho). |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
830
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Posted - 2012.01.14 15:40:00 -
[176] - Quote
easiest solution, though not always practical, is to avoid blobs a thousand people are going to get bored really quick if everyone but the criminally stupid blue-balls them
smaller gangs with obvious logi & falcons suffer the same issue, if you are OP people just wont play with you, and you are reduced to either shedding the advanced ships or picking off loners at gates and belts or the occasional dumb gang that doesn't bother to scout
sure you still get KMs but its nowhere near as interesting
also you might consider moving to a place where blob warfare is not the norm Where I live we never see fleets bigger than 50 unless someone is on a field trip NPC null is severely under-rated The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
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