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Caldorous
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.29 21:29:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Caldorous on 29/07/2007 21:29:58 Once in a while, the eve client writes in letters the amount of reward or cargo to transport in the mission briefing.
What surprises me is that sometimes it writes 4400 like forty-four hundred instead of four thousand four hundred.
Are valid both "versions" of the same number always? only in some contexts?
English is not my mother language, in fact it is my third language but i'm always prepared to learn more, that's why i ask this -----------------------------
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.07.29 21:37:00 -
[2]
As an Englishman I'd say "Four thousand, four hundred" I'd say that "Forty four hundred" is American English and you wouldn't hear many people in the UK say that.
Also, for 420 we would say "Four hundred and twenty" but Americans would say "Four hundred twenty".
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Asestorian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.07.29 22:43:00 -
[3]
For me it very much depends on the number. If it is easier to say it as "forty four hundred" then I will say that. If it is easier to say it as "four thousand four hundred" then I will say that.
Both are perfectly valid.
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Empress Aphrodite
Soar Angelic
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Posted - 2007.07.29 23:50:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Fink Angel
Also, for 420 we would say "Four hundred and twenty" but Americans would say "Four hundred twenty".
That specific number is most often said "four twenty" Empress Aphrodite
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Sakura Nihil
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.07.30 02:32:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Empress Aphrodite
Originally by: Fink Angel
Also, for 420 we would say "Four hundred and twenty" but Americans would say "Four hundred twenty".
That specific number is most often said "four twenty"
Seconded.
50m Sig Contest! |
Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.07.30 04:15:00 -
[6]
I think its a matter of formality, forty-four hundred is easier to say in one on one conversation than four thousand and four hundred. Much like the "Do Not" and "Don't". People who try and say that shortened version of certain words are not true English need to look long and hard at our languages history.
English is the bastard child of all other European languages, we take words from other languages and drop parts off just because. We take one part from one language, another from a different language, and glue them together to form a new word. Or, in the case of Latin, we take whole words and give them completely unique sets of grammatical rules (i.e. its Hour not hour, Minute not minute. If you don't capitalize it, its wrong technically...)
An incorrect use of this method of representation would be 440,000 as Forty-four Hundred Thousand, for example. But who is to say that this is wrong? It just sounds >wrong< when you say it.
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Frezik
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.07.30 04:54:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Fink Angel Also, for 420 we would say "Four hundred and twenty" but Americans would say "Four hundred twenty".
I find the American usage can go either way. Many grade-school teachers tell you that the 'and' represents the decimal point ("four hundred and twenty" = 400.20). However, my high school teachers would often say "four hundred and twenty" to mean 420.
I'd say that using the 'and' to represent the decimal is considered correct in American usage, but many people ignore this rule in common usage. I tend twards the linguistic school of thought that says common usage dictates what's correct in a language, not academic language experts.
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.07.30 09:13:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Frezik
Originally by: Fink Angel Also, for 420 we would say "Four hundred and twenty" but Americans would say "Four hundred twenty".
I find the American usage can go either way. Many grade-school teachers tell you that the 'and' represents the decimal point ("four hundred and twenty" = 400.20). However, my high school teachers would often say "four hundred and twenty" to mean 420.
I'd say that using the 'and' to represent the decimal is considered correct in American usage, but many people ignore this rule in common usage. I tend twards the linguistic school of thought that says common usage dictates what's correct in a language, not academic language experts.
How does that quote go? "England and America are two countries seperated by a common language."
There is one American term I hear on TV that sounds really odd to my English ears, with a word dropped, and that is when someone says "Write me" or "Write me back".
You'll always hear "Write to me" in the U.K.
By the way, I'm not precious about this, not moaning that we're right and Americans are wrong or anything, I just think the differences are interesting.
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Miss Anthropy
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.07.30 13:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Fink Angel
How does that quote go? "England and America are two countries seperated by a common language."
There is one American term I hear on TV that sounds really odd to my English ears, with a word dropped, and that is when someone says "Write me" or "Write me back".
Lol, this gets on my nerves. And sayings like "my bad"; this makes no grammatical sense.
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Gojyu
Gallente Ever Flow FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Miss Anthropy
Originally by: Fink Angel
How does that quote go? "England and America are two countries seperated by a common language."
There is one American term I hear on TV that sounds really odd to my English ears, with a word dropped, and that is when someone says "Write me" or "Write me back".
Lol, this gets on my nerves. And sayings like "my bad"; this makes no grammatical sense.
Is it? also irks me from the other side of the equation
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Miss Anthropy
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gojyu
Originally by: Miss Anthropy
Originally by: Fink Angel
How does that quote go? "England and America are two countries seperated by a common language."
There is one American term I hear on TV that sounds really odd to my English ears, with a word dropped, and that is when someone says "Write me" or "Write me back".
Lol, this gets on my nerves. And sayings like "my bad"; this makes no grammatical sense.
Is it? also irks me from the other side of the equation
Think about it for a second. "My bad" on it's own is a grammatically incomplete phrase that contains no intrinsic meaning. It needs a following word to complete it, such as "My bad armpits" or "My bad grammar". Either that or it should be changed to "I'm bad".
Another one that gets on my nerves is "alright already". Alright is technically a misspelling of "all right", which means "everything is right". Alright already is used in US slang to counter an argument; i.e., if someone is moaning at another person to do something, the other person might respond with "alright already". Basically, in saying this, they mean, "OK, I'm on my way", or "Calm down", or some other placatory remark.
I'm not saying the Americans have bad English. Well, actually I am kind of. On the one hand they spell things differently (and better to be honest as we Brits refuse to embrace phonetics) like armor, humor, etc. But on the other hand the Americans have a bizarre phraseology like the above I mentioned. It's a form of incomplete slang; as if they couldn't be bothered to think up the rest of a remark.
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Samuel Carthage
Caldari Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2007.07.30 14:44:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Samuel Carthage on 30/07/2007 14:44:53
Originally by: Frezik
Originally by: Fink Angel Also, for 420 we would say "Four hundred and twenty" but Americans would say "Four hundred twenty".
I find the American usage can go either way. Many grade-school teachers tell you that the 'and' represents the decimal point ("four hundred and twenty" = 400.20). However, my high school teachers would often say "four hundred and twenty" to mean 420.
I'd say that using the 'and' to represent the decimal is considered correct in American usage, but many people ignore this rule in common usage. I tend twards the linguistic school of thought that says common usage dictates what's correct in a language, not academic language experts.
I'm not quite sure what America you've been living in. Decimals are, and always have been pronounced "four hundred and two tenths" = 400.2 or 400.20; same thing
I think that the pronunciation of numbers is dictated by the person saying them, not the country.
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Caldorous
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:02:00 -
[13]
wow, the micro-lesson became a full lesson
Thank you people -----------------------------
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Wilhelm Beck
Tritanium Workers Union Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:06:00 -
[14]
Re: "My Bad"
My bad in American English falls into the same catagory as "Dreadfully Sorry Old Bean". The subject and verb are implied by conversation.
Technically the full sentence is considered to be "[That thing we are discussing][was/is/will have been] My bad." Like most languages there are numerous examples of this in English in practice. While it may not be perfectly proper English, it seems to get the job done.
As to the decimal thing I have never heard of "four hundred and twenty" meaning 400.20 instead that would imply to me at least 420. I have on occasion heard the above number referred to as four hundred and two tenths. However, were I to write "four hundred and two tenths" its would be in fractional form not as a decimal thus 400 2/10. Most people that I am aware of would say "four hundred point two zero"
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:22:00 -
[15]
I do find this all very interesting. I've read "The Mother Tongue: English And How It Got That Way" by Bill Bryson and I'd recommend it as a great, none too heavy, read.
Did you know that "fall" and "autumn" were pretty much interchangable in England at one time. Then the Pilgrim Fathers went off to America and preferred the term "fall" (Short for "fall of the leaf"), and the term "autumn" become more popular in England, ultimately completely taking over from "fall".
Also, I seriously think that given another 10 years or so, British spellings of Colour and the like will probably have died out due to the all pervading Internet, and strabgely enough misconfigured spellcheckers.
Still not sure whether I could ever get on with "Tire" instead of "Tyre" though!
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:23:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 30/07/2007 15:24:09
Originally by: Fink Angel
Originally by: Frezik
Originally by: Fink Angel Also, for 420 we would say "Four hundred and twenty" but Americans would say "Four hundred twenty".
I find the American usage can go either way. Many grade-school teachers tell you that the 'and' represents the decimal point ("four hundred and twenty" = 400.20). However, my high school teachers would often say "four hundred and twenty" to mean 420.
I'd say that using the 'and' to represent the decimal is considered correct in American usage, but many people ignore this rule in common usage. I tend twards the linguistic school of thought that says common usage dictates what's correct in a language, not academic language experts.
How does that quote go? "England and America are two countries seperated by a common language."
There is one American term I hear on TV that sounds really odd to my English ears, with a word dropped, and that is when someone says "Write me" or "Write me back".
You'll always hear "Write to me" in the U.K.
By the way, I'm not precious about this, not moaning that we're right and Americans are wrong or anything, I just think the differences are interesting.
I do not know what the U.K. uses but there should be a Style Manual that is considered gospel for the "correct" forms when writing. In the United States we have two actually, The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage and The Chicago Manual of Style (I prefer the Chicago manual but in most cases they are in agreement).
Both the New York and Chicago manuals agree when it comes to writing numbers.
So:
$15,768.13 (Fifteen thousand, seven hundred sixty-eight dollars and thirteen cents) 2468.32 (two thousand four hundred sixty-eight and thirty-two hundreths) NOTE: The comma is now commonly omitted in four-digit whole numbers
So the "and" denotes the decimal point.
Of course I am quite aware that common usage may bear no resemblance to "correct" usage but there you have it.
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:28:00 -
[17]
Actually if I were neutral I would have to say the American version makes more sense.
I'd say (1320) One thousand, three hundred and twenty.
... which when broken down sounds like I've forgotten about the twenty, and then had to say "... and twenty" to make it back up again!
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:30:00 -
[18]
Ha! Checking the Chicago manual I found the following:
Quote: Q. IÆm writing dialogue with blood pressure values. IÆm OK with my doc saying, ôYour last reading was one twenty-nine.ö But what do I do with a reading of 101? ôOne zero oneö sounds like Mr. Spock. ôOne oh oneö is the way people speak, but ôohö may be confused with the exclamation. ôOne hundred and oneö sounds like a temperature, not a blood pressure. Plus, this form would require me to use ôone hundred and twenty-nine,ö etc., for consistency. ôOne hundred oneö is probably correct, but sounds awkward, and might be confused with repetition: ôThatÆs one hundredùone.ö Should I just give up and use numerals?
A. If you want to spell these out the way people talk, consistency isnÆt an issue. Write ôone twenty-nineö and ôa hundred and one.ö Alternatively, use numerals.
So it seems if you are writing dialog they say to write it as people say it. Of course that does not mean it is the proper way to write numbers otherwise but it is a nod to different ways people talk without busting them for it. Take it FWIW.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Fink Angel Actually if I were neutral I would have to say the American version makes more sense.
I'd say (1320) One thousand, three hundred and twenty.
... which when broken down sounds like I've forgotten about the twenty, and then had to say "... and twenty" to make it back up again!
TBH I'd probably be lazy and say thirteen twenty. Quicker to say than one thousand three hundred twenty. I doubt it is considered "proper" grammar anywhere though and more just being a lazy American.
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Frezik
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.07.30 15:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Miss Anthropy Think about it for a second. "My bad" on it's own is a grammatically incomplete phrase that contains no intrinsic meaning. It needs a following word to complete it, such as "My bad armpits" or "My bad grammar". Either that or it should be changed to "I'm bad".
Another one that gets on my nerves is "alright already". Alright is technically a misspelling of "all right", which means "everything is right". Alright already is used in US slang to counter an argument; i.e., if someone is moaning at another person to do something, the other person might respond with "alright already". Basically, in saying this, they mean, "OK, I'm on my way", or "Calm down", or some other placatory remark.
I'm not saying the Americans have bad English. Well, actually I am kind of. On the one hand they spell things differently (and better to be honest as we Brits refuse to embrace phonetics) like armor, humor, etc. But on the other hand the Americans have a bizarre phraseology like the above I mentioned. It's a form of incomplete slang; as if they couldn't be bothered to think up the rest of a remark.
If you want language to make sense, you shouldn't be speaking English.
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Wilhelm Beck
Tritanium Workers Union Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.30 16:30:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Wilhelm Beck on 30/07/2007 16:31:04
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Both the New York and Chicago manuals agree when it comes to writing numbers.
So:
$15,768.13 (Fifteen thousand, seven hundred sixty-eight dollars and thirteen cents) 2468.32 (two thousand four hundred sixty-eight and thirty-two hundreths) NOTE: The comma is now commonly omitted in four-digit whole numbers
So the "and" denotes the decimal point.
I don't claim to be a grammar expert here. But, I am reasonably sure that in the examples you quote here the examples you quote the and is indicating a change of unit type. As in: "I have four apples and three oranges." The units are then noted to clarify what exactly one is talking about.
The example of "Four and twenty blackbirds" taken from the nursery rhyme indicates 24 not 4.20 because no units were specified thus one is assumed to be adding. teh rhyme
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.07.30 18:26:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Fink Angel on 30/07/2007 18:25:55
Originally by: Frezik If you want language to make sense, you shouldn't be speaking English.
Even though I'm English, I'm a big fan of the German language.
We ponce around making flouncy words. Hmm, a boat that goes under the sea. We'll call it a Submarine.
Germans? Bosh ... no mucking around. Just call it an Unterseeboot (under-sea-boat), and even then shorten it to U-Boat. Brilliant!
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.07.30 18:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Fink Angel Edited by: Fink Angel on 30/07/2007 18:25:55
Originally by: Frezik If you want language to make sense, you shouldn't be speaking English.
Even though I'm English, I'm a big fan of the German language.
We ponce around making flouncy words. Hmm, a boat that goes under the sea. We'll call it a Submarine.
Germans? Bosh ... no mucking around. Just call it an Unterseeboot (under-sea-boat), and even then shorten it to U-Boat. Brilliant!
They are actually trying to change this, their is apparently a language reform to try and make the 30 letter long nouns and such shorter because the German dictionary is huge.
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Sazkyen
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Posted - 2007.07.30 23:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Originally by: Fink Angel Edited by: Fink Angel on 30/07/2007 18:25:55
Originally by: Frezik If you want language to make sense, you shouldn't be speaking English.
Even though I'm English, I'm a big fan of the German language.
We ponce around making flouncy words. Hmm, a boat that goes under the sea. We'll call it a Submarine.
Germans? Bosh ... no mucking around. Just call it an Unterseeboot (under-sea-boat), and even then shorten it to U-Boat. Brilliant!
They are actually trying to change this, their is apparently a language reform to try and make the 30 letter long nouns and such shorter because the German dictionary is huge.
landwirtschaftausstellungstnck
Unfortunately in my country when I was a child they didn't teach English in elementary schools. One day I've decided that I want to learn English and simply picked a book and grabbed a dictionary. It proved to be quite tedious of a task as I had to look up every single word I came across. When you have to look up a word you have checked like three times already that can put you off big time (I'm not that incredibly smart). The worst is that being a non-native speaker most of the times I have no clue wether a certain form of a word is British, American, Australian or something different. Looking back I have to say that I should have went to a pro and taken lessons.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:36:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Wilhelm Beck Edited by: Wilhelm Beck on 30/07/2007 16:31:04
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Both the New York and Chicago manuals agree when it comes to writing numbers.
So:
$15,768.13 (Fifteen thousand, seven hundred sixty-eight dollars and thirteen cents) 2468.32 (two thousand four hundred sixty-eight and thirty-two hundreths) NOTE: The comma is now commonly omitted in four-digit whole numbers
So the "and" denotes the decimal point.
I don't claim to be a grammar expert here. But, I am reasonably sure that in the examples you quote here the examples you quote the and is indicating a change of unit type. As in: "I have four apples and three oranges." The units are then noted to clarify what exactly one is talking about.
The example of "Four and twenty blackbirds" taken from the nursery rhyme indicates 24 not 4.20 because no units were specified thus one is assumed to be adding. teh rhyme
You'll have to take it up with the people writing the style manuals. They are rather large books trying to list all the nuances. If they missed this I am not surprised although your usage feels a bit archaic.
One also has to remember that in rhymes or poems and such artistic license may be taken. The style manuals are meant to list guidelines for more formal writing.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden They are actually trying to change this, their is apparently a language reform to try and make the 30 letter long nouns and such shorter because the German dictionary is huge.
Once upon a time I spoke German as a second language (also studied Spanish) and while through lack of use/study since then I can barely speak a word of either language I do remember German having some absurdly long words. And I do mean absurd....just sort of went on and on and on.
Good? Bad? Indifferent? I couldn't say but they certainly were a mouthful.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sazkyen Unfortunately in my country when I was a child they didn't teach English in elementary schools. One day I've decided that I want to learn English and simply picked a book and grabbed a dictionary. It proved to be quite tedious of a task as I had to look up every single word I came across. When you have to look up a word you have checked like three times already that can put you off big time (I'm not that incredibly smart). The worst is that being a non-native speaker most of the times I have no clue wether a certain form of a word is British, American, Australian or something different. Looking back I have to say that I should have went to a pro and taken lessons.
I've been told by people learning English that it is a pain in the ass. English has borrowed heavily from all sorts of languages through the ages. While I have seen arguments that say this makes english the most precise language (you can find a word nuanced just so to best describe whatever it is you are on about) it makes for a bit of a muddled mess.
As for British vs. American vs. Australian English you just have to get used to the quirks. For example:
Britain: Boot = Trunk America: Boot = Boot (shoe) Australia: Coffee = Beer (kidding)
But that is all just vocabulary and often in context you can get the sense of it. To me it is how you construct the sentences that gets more confusing (which will be the same in all English speaking countries). Conjuagting verbs in Spanish gave me fits. Rather than, "I go, you go, we go" I'd have to remember "voy, vas, vamos". Masculine and feminine nouns also screwed me up.
Guess it is just what you are used to. everything else seems odd (not wrong, just odd).
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Miss Anthropy
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.07.31 14:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Britain: Boot = Trunk America: Boot = Boot (shoe) Australia: Coffee = Beer (kidding)
This mix-up might explain a lot of Australian behaviour.
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.07.31 14:49:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Frug on 31/07/2007 14:49:23 Here's a micro lesson in english for the internet community.
"I would of done that."
Stop writing "would of" instead of "would've" It's ****ing me off.
It's a goddamn contraction of "would have". "would've" It's not f-ing "would of" learn english.
ENGLISH MOTHAF*****, DO YOU SPEAK IT?
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Frezik
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.07.31 14:57:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Frug ENGLISH MOTHAF*****, DO YOU SPEAK IT?
No. I speak 'frezikish', a language that looks strangely like English, but isn't.
While we're on this subject, I'd like everyone to stop spelling 'knight' with a 'k'. That spelling hasn't made sense since Chaucer was writing fart jokes.
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