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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Darpz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:30:00 -
[241]
TBH I think this is an over nerf, it makes nos next to useless except for very specific purposes, and makes the pilgrim useless, and makes the curse next to useless (its going to become a missile spammer)
Two Alternatives that still fix the issues with nos atm while still keeping them valid and useful
1. a straight Sig Radius Nerf (large nos do less to smaller ships) with a skill to adjust it somewhat (makes nos take skill!) with lvl 5 of the skill on a cruiser a heavy nos would be about the same as a medium nos, and a small nos on a frig.
or a better option imo
2. Percentage Nerf simlar to this but not based on your own ships cap. At base skill it would allow you to take a ship down to 50% then a rank 5 skill would let you take 5% more level till you could take a ship to 25% Cap at level 5 which won't kill there tank but will put them in trouble, but would require a neut to fully dry them out.
Since most will only have the skill to 4 that puts most ships at peak regen when there being nosed which means that ceptors won't lose there tackle, vagas can engage nos ships since it only needs cap for a rupter and a getaway mwd burst which being at 30% cap doesn't hurt. it really fixes 90% of the problems with nos. Gank ships with injectors can micro manage there cap below 30 and make sure the enemy ship gets now cap.
also both these options keep amarr recons as viable ships where the current nerf makes it to much of a micromanaging pain that no one will both with them, since the sach will make a better missile spamming nano ship than the curse, nos boat would be pointless and neut boat is no realistic since neuts on a curse take cap like a BS neut which even with an injector will mean it can't support more than 2 with any sort of tank/speed tank
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LordVodka
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:30:00 -
[242]
First off this nos nerf is REDICULOUS. I can name a great number of reason's why...
As far as amarr is concerned to run a dual rep geddon, with guns in the highs you need a electrochemical injecter with 800's and 2 HEAVY nos to sustain cap. No other race relies so heavily on nos then the amarr. With this nos nerf Amarr are looking at sustaining there bs's for 4-5 minutes with good skills likely. (EFT on a all lvl 5 spec sheet)
Another over looked feature to this nos nerf is MWD ships, well how do you stop inty's vaga's, phoons that are mwd'ing outa web range. You throw some nos on them and you shut there MWD's off, but oh wait. CCP just did one of the lamest nerfs in the history of this game and now we can't shut there caps off just match there cap, whip de du dah. It's called a Energy Vampire, not a equalizer.
If there needs to be a Nos nerf and in no way am I denying that nos needs a nerf, Do something more reasonable, stacking nerf the nos with the stacking system thats already in place. 1 nos is full effect, 2 nos is close to full effect, and then after that the 3rd, 4th, 5th nos's start to lose any effect to even fit. That is a nerf that could be imposed.
In clonclusion, the nos nerf hurts amarr more then any other race with there highest cap use needs. secondly the nos nerf boost MWD ships to a lvl higher then they were at before the speed nerf. And finnally a new nerf needs to be imposed and this one deleted.
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Azrael Maxim
Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:30:00 -
[243]
Excellent work ccp!
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LordVodka
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:35:00 -
[244]
Reading up i saw the nos hard point proposition, I find that acceptable. Seriously this can't actually go through, leave nos to its current effect just limit the number used or stacking penalty it PLEASE. Leave a dominix, and a geddon ships like that with 2 nos hard points, and then they will be acceptable!
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William Hamilton
Caldari THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:35:00 -
[245]
My favorite whine in this thread is
"Amarr didn't get boosted, just that Caldari got some free new ships"
which can be paraphrased into.
"Caldari got nerfed, train Amarr instead"
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Belial Tempter
Amarr Twisted Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:35:00 -
[246]
Edited by: Belial Tempter on 31/07/2007 00:36:55 NOS nerf is stupid.
I train for months to get a curse, and then it's made useless in solo PvP. Great.
I've just been testing quickly, and from what I can see the only way to kill someones cap is to kill your own, byebye MWD / tank as soon as you break their cap
Havent bothered testing Pilgrim yet, same applies really tbh.
Neuts kill your own cap as fast if not faster than theirs...maybe Neuts would work on a cap boosted setup? not for long tho, don't expect to kill much above cruiser
I can't see flying one if this goes ahead, so guess I have to spend a month or so changing recon's / training something else to fly properly. Wonderful. So much for my carefully thought out skillplan. Maybe I should just train all races cruisers to 5 so I can be sure future 'fixes' won't affect me so much.
Oh, but the passive tanked Drake Pilots are laughing their asses off as they cap you out without worrying bout theirs...guess I should have listened when someone told me it should really be called Calderi Online
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Era Mercatrix
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:39:00 -
[247]
Excellent change! Nos/drone boats were ruining pvp, and curses being able to solo almost any non-passive tanked ship was definitely unbalanced.
Great work ccp!
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LordVodka
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:40:00 -
[248]
Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:43:59 Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:42:59 Edited by: LordVodka on 31/07/2007 00:42:32
Originally by: William Hamilton My favorite whine in this thread is
"Amarr didn't get boosted, just that Caldari got some free new ships"
which can be paraphrased into.
"Caldari got nerfed, train Amarr instead"
what the heck are you talking about, he's just saying amarr got missile ships now, and they may as well be caldari (As in a caldari boost not nerf), nothing in there saying to change race...
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Callthetruth
Caldari Drunken Ratbags Inc New Eve Order
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:43:00 -
[249]
how is this going to affect missions and NPCing, will missions be adjusted to account for NOS changes
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TheDevilsLawyer
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:45:00 -
[250]
This NOS nerf doesn't make any sense.
If I understand it correctly, the proposed nerf intends to make nosferatu a tool to sustain your own cap with instead of to suck your enemy's. While that's an excellent goal, the implementation is poor. With the proposed nerf, cap management becomes counterproductive. You'll want to lower your cap in order to sustain your cap. If you use a cap booster your nos cease to function. If you set up for cap recharge your nos cease to function. Since cap boosters and cap rechargers are more reliable than nos, is there really a point to using nos to sustain your own cap? To add to this point, rarely will nos actually take energy. Cap will drain at the same rate if all things are equal, so nos will do nothing. The nos then favours whoever uses the most cap, so whoever runs their hardeners before they need to or MWDs for the longest or whoever has LESS neutralizers. This nerf also makes nos favour people who have just come out of warp and people who are tanking rats over people who are doing nothing, as they'll have less cap so their nos will work. That doesn't make much sense, these people should be at a disadvantage.
Another problem is that neuts on their own can't reliably break tanks. Tank-breaking setups relied on nos to provide the cap to run their neuts. With the changes, breaking the tank of a capital ship or another well-tanked ship is extremely difficult unless you have overwhelming firepower, since neuts cannot be sustained while cap recharging setups can.
As for specific ships, the proposed nerf completely marginalizes the Curse and Pilgrim. The point of recon ships is to make the enemy helpless then kill them. Since you can't reliably do this with tracking disruptors, you rely on your nos and neuts and other types of ECM. Since nos are now incapable of making the enemy ship helpless, the new option is to fit energy neutralizers. However, fitting either a tank + neut or a speed + neut setup on either ship is already extremely difficult and using neuts with the changes is even harder because neuts on the Curse and Pilgrim rely on your nos to provide the cap to run them. In other words, there are no new viable setups for the Curse and Pilgrim that make use of their ship bonuses. Other ships also have fitting problems with neuts.
too long didn't read summary: - Cap management issues make no sense with the new nos - Nosferatu can no longer be used to break tanks, neuts need to be used instead - Neutralizers need cap to sustain the energy drain, which until the nerf is provided by nos - Neutralizers without nos are unsustainable, making it difficult to break certain tanks (I'm concerned in particular with capital ships) - Because of the fitting requirements of neutralizers and the unsustainability of neutralizers, the pilgrim and the curse make poor use of the ship bonuses and the ship is not in the "recon ship" role of locking down a target and making it helpless.
my suggestions: *1 Nos take an ammount of cap based on signature radius (not tracking) -- It marginalizes the effect of heavy nos on smaller ships while still affecting the small ships in a way -- It allows the breaking of tanks with nos+neut combos, and it allows multiple specifically set up smaller ships to break the the tank of larger ships *2 (a compromise solution) Nos only take cap if the target has less cap than you, but this is based on ABSOLUTE value not percentage. So if the target has 5000 cap and you have 1000 and your nos takes 100 cap per cycle, your nos will hit for the full ammount, but if the target has 1050 cap and you have 1000 the nos will only hit for 1/2. -- It marginalizes the effect of heavy nos on smaller ships while still affecting the small ships in a way -- It allows for partial breaking of larger ship tanks *3 Change neuts to be more viable. Decrease fitting, change the way they use the user's cap, something.
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TheDevilsJury
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:46:00 -
[251]
Originally by: TheDevilsLawyer This NOS nerf doesn't make any sense.
whoops wrong character, that was me
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Sverre Haakonson
Gallente SecuWay Industrial inc. SECUWAY.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:57:00 -
[252]
Originally by: TheDevilsLawyer This NOS nerf doesn't make any sense.
If I understand it correctly, the proposed nerf intends to make nosferatu a tool to sustain your own cap with instead of to suck your enemy's. While that's an excellent goal, the implementation is poor. With the proposed nerf, cap management becomes counterproductive.
/signed
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Azumi Kurosawa
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Posted - 2007.07.31 00:58:00 -
[253]
In the spirit of EvE i'm just going to say stop whining and adapt I certainly will be I just sold my cerbs and bought cheap sac's because these things are going to be monsters.
And on that note ccp if the amarr keep moaning i'm pretty sure the caldari would be willing to do a straight swap the sac for the cerb think og it as a rp thing since there allies.
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Idaeus
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:05:00 -
[254]
Originally by: TheDevilsLawyer This NOS nerf doesn't make any sense.
If I understand it correctly, the proposed nerf intends to make nosferatu a tool to sustain your own cap with instead of to suck your enemy's. While that's an excellent goal, the implementation is poor. With the proposed nerf, cap management becomes counterproductive.
Agreed.
I really don't have much more to add to that. The idea that I'll be better off letting my MWD *****my cap (then nos enemy, then eat cap boosters) is.. silly at best.
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Ivan Milat
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:20:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Vanst Keal Sig radius penalties work for missiles, drones, and guns equally well, why not Nos too? I'm sure the creative guys could come up with something to explain why heavy Nos doesn't work at 100% efficiency on anything smaller than a battleship. This sort of karmic-balance cap interlinkage whateverthehell change is ten tons of BS in a five ton crate.
Not saying that this is a perfect solution, but a sig radius penalty for Nos is the best idea so far in this thread. Even if it's not a linear radius/resolution penalty, and rather something like (radius/resolution)^x [where x > 1], that way the effect of huge nos boats on smaller ships would be minimal, and they would be reasonable on bigger ships that can handle it. Obviously transfer amounts would need to be adjusted as well,
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ArcticFox
Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:29:00 -
[256]
As a Curse pilot I'm annoyed... and as a Gistii inty pilot I'm ecstatic, and both over the exact same part of the blog... I think I need to do some soul searching. -------------------------- There is no +6 sword of WTFPWN in Eve. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:31:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Era Mercatrix Excellent change! Nos/drone boats were ruining pvp, and curses being able to solo almost any non-passive tanked ship was definitely unbalanced.
Great work ccp!
As a curse pilot - I have to agree. Curse's were FAR overpowered. In a curse, you could take on any ship 1v1 without a second thought. They were basically Vagabonds with drones and 30km Nos. Or they were cerbs depending on how you set em up. You could tank almost as much dps as a pre nerf passive tanked drake so that aspect is not going to change.
They were great fun ships to have, but sadly all good things must end. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Yellow Planet
RONA Capital ShipYards RONA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:46:00 -
[258]
**** YOU FOR ******* UP THE ONLY SHIPS THAT I STILL LIKE IN THIS GAME. STUPID ICELAND*****FAGGERS ******* DIE AND BECOME ULTIMA ONLINE!
**** OFF
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Drash Kammatarr
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:50:00 -
[259]
Hi, I'm sick of nerfing things that need no nerf. Nos needs no nerf. period. I bet that at least 90% of the people who shout for "nerf this, nerf that" belong to the following groups:
a. New players b. Players who lack skills to do better c. deriving from b, Players who will only play for a short amount of time, because they simply can't get it into their itsy bitsy tiny little brains that players who trained for months (curse/pilgrim) are actually able to destroy their mighty ibis/reaper/whatever 'of doom'.
But CCP always listens to their baby-cries, and with every patch we get something dumbed down, and the gaming experience and a lot of time invested for skilltraining goes down the drain. And in the end, these nerf-crying Players leave the game for good because they notice that they need another skill for mining mercoxite when they finally arrive in 0.0 space. I have to ask my self: why do I put so much effort and time into a Game which gets destroyed piece by piece? Well...maybe I won't do so much longer ;)
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Raydn James
CAD Inc. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:50:00 -
[260]
Originally by: StarCommWraith Ok how about this. Simply remove Nosferatu because now with the change you have made it completely useless.
Couldnt agree more.
As i read the dev blog, the line that sticks out to me the most is this: "This means that the target is no worse off (energy wise) than the attacking ship." Did someone actually write that thinking it was a good idea? If the target ship is no worse off, whats the point? In the next patch, I'd also like it to be added that no ones weapons do more damage than mine so that I'm no worse off than they are. Also: tracking, # of targets locked, CPU, PG, total Cap, and number of high, medium and low slots should be the same across ship classes. What about races whose weapons take cap to fire and even more so whos AMMO also requires cap?
One of the things that needs to be looked at is this: Say im in combat and I attack someone, I'm using NOS and sucking their CAP dry. Even though Im doing so, I still have to run my mods, im loosing cap to my weapons, and Im getting hit by nos at the same time. Normally I would hit a cap booster and keep going. With the proposed change (as I understand it) the NOS I had running just completly got wiped out of the equation because now my CAP is at 50% and my target is at 48% CAP.
I've always been one to go after peoples CAP. Not just because I need it for my ship to function, but it's always been the easiest 'tank' to kill because very few pilots are willing to give up a mid slot to fit a cap booster. Shield tankers, Im sure, would start complaining about how they need the mids slots for their tank, and I would agree. Since that is the case, make cap boosters that fit in both mid and low slots.
Lots of people have been saying 'Just fit neuts'. To them I say, look at the PG reqirement difference on a Large NOS and its corosponding Large Neut. On lots of ships, PG is so cramped as it is, and some people are already fitting Reactor Control's to just get full weapon fits on their ship.
Amarr and Gallente take the biggest hits with this NOS nerf. If something must be done (and im on the fence about that) this definately shouldnt beit. I also had to agree with the post that we are constantally getting hit with nerf's to module after module instead of adding things to bolster our ships (or in this case CAP) against attack. A module to protect a ships cap against a NOS attack would be way more interesting than the proposed change.
What happened to giving us the options and letting the pilot decide the best way to fit his ship?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:05:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Yellow Planet **** YOU FOR ******* UP THE ONLY SHIPS THAT I STILL LIKE IN THIS GAME. STUPID ICELAND*****FAGGERS ******* DIE AND BECOME ULTIMA ONLINE!
**** OFF
AAHHHH there we go, I was wondering if there was anyone that hated the changes :) I was like nos change? let me read the comments frist to see how my flames there are :) now to the dev blog. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP |
Wrayeth
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:07:00 -
[262]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 31/07/2007 02:12:52 Wow...the sacrilege kicks ass. I think I'll be training Amarr cruiser 5 next, which will get me into both Amarr cruisers and command ships.
I was thinking about buying another cerberus to replace the one I lost a while back due to a piloting error, but I think I'll be buying a sacrilege instead.
P.S. Dammit, now I have to go buy faction neutralizers to replace the nos on several of my ships. Damn yooz! Damn yooz all to hell! -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Felysta Sandorn
Caldari System-Lords Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:10:00 -
[263]
Coming from a seasoned Amarr pilot, specialised in Pilgrims, Curses, and other Amarr ships... The Pilgrim and Curse are now utterly useless... Particularly the Pilgrim, as it lacks the high slots to fit an effective NEUT/NOS combi.
This nerf to NOS also promotes blobbing/ganking... When you're in a BS running away from a fleet, usual tactic is to NOS their ceptors dry, then warp off... Now the ceptor will always catch you and hold you for the blob to arrive... If you have to fit a NEUT now, it nerfs the setup for any other form of combat.
Also... Rockets only on a Ceptor? Gratz on rendering the Malediction completely useless! The point of a ceptor is to tackle outside web range... Get webbed and you die, whether you have an extra 25% resists or not! Rockets force you in to web range, which forces you to lose a ship. This now leaves Amarr with no good Ceptors as the Crusader only has 2 mids (also useless).
So after promising Amarr buffs for three years, we get another nerf... Great job, CCP, you've really excelled yourselves this time...
And no, no-one can have my stuff...
Latest Video, Click Here!
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Calderio
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:22:00 -
[264]
changes to amarr are ****, I should have stuck with traditional caldari roles from the start, now i have to train missles too.
****, ****, super ****, mega ****, and ****
listen to me on bob radio, heavy metal, random babbling, and live forum coverage. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:24:00 -
[265]
I love the ammar boost CCP! Sacrilege (Heavy Assault Ship), OMG.
also the new rocket smashing ship is fantastic. with the nos change (it's not a nerf by any means, you still get your increased cap recharge) it means this ship is able to actully tank even if webbed by the battleship. With the best cap in the game and no lasers equiped this makes the ammar danagerous as hell.
however now for the ugly, (yes unlike most people I look for both good and bad in changes)
nos change makes the cruse hard to fit because of the fitting requirements. you should increase it's bonus to nuet output by 200% but not the cap it uses. thus allowing one ship (and bloodraiders) the only ships in th game tht can use the old nos style.
err why did you make the command ship so weak? it should be weapons that you use on other BC's not cruisers. increase it's PW a little and slap torp bonus on it.
nos warfare is just a bit over nerfed but I think I'll posta thread about that in general :P ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP |
Cailais
Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:25:00 -
[266]
As a curse pilot (trained for it from day 1, absolutely my favourite ship) Im totally gutted. It might be possible to cobble together a half working ship, but tbh I think the curse is going in a hangar like an old classic car to gather dust, and I'll probably melt the pilgrim down and throw the arbi out of the airlock into space.
Yeah, I'll adapt, (I'll train minmatar I think) but it just feels such a waste of a years training.
Bitterly disappointed.
C.
- sig designer - eve mail |
Lightof God
Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:27:00 -
[267]
as a caldari
Please for the love of god dont change my nos, i need it so.
thank you.
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LordVodka
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:32:00 -
[268]
Whats with the curse this curse that, ya 1 ship is in jeopordy your saying, look at the bigger picture, go on EFT and try looking at the cap life on your bs's when you have no nos's fit. The curse is not the only ship that won't be able to work with this change...
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Arkin Longinus
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:32:00 -
[269]
CCP please dont do this....I just spent literally ages working on two ships that you now decide to nerf into the grave.
For god sake dont take this away from me please. Dont change nos atm it's one of the most useful mods ingame for amarr ships especially now that you have turned this into a capacator game with all of the add on's to hp and emphasis on tanking.
Kahnd mk 2 is pretty nice but please dont nerf nos.
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Nathrezim
Gallente Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:35:00 -
[270]
i dont get it.. why nerf NOSes to oblivion rather than adjusting them? i.e. you wtf-nerfed jammers some time ago, but at least the ECM sips had their bonuses fixed to counter that + rigs + new low slot mods = jamming on jamming-specifc ships got better than it used to be..
Why not simply reduce the NOS ammount of NOSes lets say like 33%? or what the heck..even to 50% and give a slightly better boost to NOS ships (i.e. pilgrim and cruse) so THOSE ships can NOS as good as pre-change but rest ships will kinda suck at NOSing? no... you have to take out the nerfbat and *SPLAT*.. you guys dont seem to learn from your mistakes eh? you cant see that it is different to DEAL with a problem and different to screw up whatever is causing the problem.. Its not your fault though.. its the fault of all those ''kids'' whining on the forums that ''i cant kill everything in my vaga-pownmobile cause i get nossed waaa waaa''.. So, with this change you make minmatar and caldari semi-invincible cause they DONT require cap to fire their weapons and caldari ships can make crazy passive shield tank setups anyway.. gg you managed to nerf amarr even more and slap gallente a bit with the NOS changes.. Ok for gallente, cause some of their ships are overpowered (nos-domi/myrmi/eos) but why nerf amarr into oblivion even more? and i dont even fly amarr.. I just finished training amarr cruiser to lvl5 to try out curse/pilgrim but looks like i wasted 25 days of training.. Not to mention the fact that with this move, you made capital ships even more difficult to kill which means more blobs to shoot them down which means more lag/desyncs/whatever..
Is anyone actually THINKING of these changes or are you guys over there flipping coins and laughing at the thousands of your subscribers?
And a noobish question coming up.. Whats up with these ''khanid'' ships anyway? i thought that the playable races (and main races of the game) were amarr, caldari, minmatar and gallente... wtf is up with you batpizing some ships as Khanid? Like making a distinction between gallente ships that are created by roden shipyards and the other corp, i dont even remember its name
Anyway, the NOS changes suck The missile thingy on the other amarr ships sucks aswell.. Cause imagine a damnation trying to get into range for those crappy missiles.. its funny to think of it..
ANYWAY, GG CCP in making another step towards ruining this game.. Only the isk-farmers will be left to 'play' this game within a year or two if you lot go on with stupid and rational changes like this.. But who cares eh? As long as you got enough subscribers to keep your golden goose running...
pathetic
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