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Lisento Slaven
Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.10 04:16:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Siakel Mmmm.... I'm not sure how often Minmatar actually use missiles. They love to tack it on as an entire tree they have to train, but, Naglfar aside (I know, their caps definitely are the most SP-intensive) I don't actually see Minmatar using missiles on anything but the Typhoon, and occasionally a rocket stuck on an AF or Rifter. P'raps this will change with the nos nerf, p'raps not. Just something that bugs me.
As for your missile request:
All numbers with max skills, no shipbonus, no hardwires:
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, T1 Missiles- 29.8 DPS. Heavy Missile Launcher II, T1 Missiles- 24.2 DPS. Assault Missile Launcher II, T1 Missiles- 15.3 DPS.
I use missiles on a good chunk of the minmatar ships I fly myself. On a side note can you factor in lvl 4 HAC to the numbers for the sacrilege with the 5% damage and 5% ROF? I would do it myself but you didn't list ROF/Damage with skills, just the flat out answer. I'm just curious how much damage I'm going to be able to pump out of the Sac if I uber it up. ---
Put in space whales!
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Siakel
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Posted - 2007.08.10 05:26:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven
Originally by: Siakel Mmmm.... I'm not sure how often Minmatar actually use missiles. They love to tack it on as an entire tree they have to train, but, Naglfar aside (I know, their caps definitely are the most SP-intensive) I don't actually see Minmatar using missiles on anything but the Typhoon, and occasionally a rocket stuck on an AF or Rifter. P'raps this will change with the nos nerf, p'raps not. Just something that bugs me.
As for your missile request:
All numbers with max skills, no shipbonus, no hardwires:
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, T1 Missiles- 29.8 DPS. Heavy Missile Launcher II, T1 Missiles- 24.2 DPS. Assault Missile Launcher II, T1 Missiles- 15.3 DPS.
I use missiles on a good chunk of the minmatar ships I fly myself. On a side note can you factor in lvl 4 HAC to the numbers for the sacrilege with the 5% damage and 5% ROF? I would do it myself but you didn't list ROF/Damage with skills, just the flat out answer. I'm just curious how much damage I'm going to be able to pump out of the Sac if I uber it up.
With level 4 HAC, it'd be 29.8*1.25(Damage bonus)*1.25(20% RoF bonus)= 46.56 DPS per launcher, 232.81 DPS for the Sac, 267.73 DPS with Faction missiles, 284.87 DPS with HAC 5, And 45.6(Warrior II) to 59.4(Hobgoblin II) more DPS from Drones.
Hmm... numbers seem like tehy might be a bit low, but not by much. Last I did this, I calced a Khanid Mk2 Sac with HAC5 and Hobgoblin IIs around 360 DPS... eh, oh well. It's somewhere in that area.
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Cutie Chaser
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.10 05:42:00 -
[123]
Drones are not optional for ANY race. Ships are balanced with the drone bay in mind. If you fly a ship with a drone bay you screw yourself if you don't have drone skills. You CAN get by without them, but its idiotic to pass up a drone bay just because you're lazy.
Hell, even lvl 4 mission runners are smart enough to pack their ravens with 5x lights to deal with scrambling frigates and ceptors. And no one in their right mind flies a typhoon with an empty drone bay.
Thus they are not fair to include in any calculation of skill training. Every race needs drones.
*** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers. |
Haros
Redemption Inc
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Posted - 2007.08.10 11:41:00 -
[124]
Change is crap ihmo. Thank god im not flying ammar :) I feel for u m8. Some ships might get boosted (malediction? Heretic?) by this some might get nerfed (Sacrilege), but imagine the Khanid change going up long term. Which Ammar BS is Khanid btw? Torps coming out of an Apoc or Arma? Since this change is about Khanid as CCP puts it then y not change the BS as well or even the capital ships? Capital Assault Missiles anyone?
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Trind2222
Amarr Celestial Pillagers
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Posted - 2007.08.10 13:05:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Haros Change is crap ihmo. Thank god im not flying ammar :) I feel for u m8. Some ships might get boosted (malediction? Heretic?) by this some might get nerfed (Sacrilege), but imagine the Khanid change going up long term. Which Ammar BS is Khanid btw? Torps coming out of an Apoc or Arma? Since this change is about Khanid as CCP puts it then y not change the BS as well or even the capital ships? Capital Assault Missiles anyone?
How do know if crap if you not have tested the change on sisi?
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Cpt Branko
Guardian Heroes
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Posted - 2007.08.10 15:23:00 -
[126]
Funny, i'm going to train Amarr frig V post-patch just to be able to fly the khanid MK II ships (minmatar interceptors, for one, are too ugly to really fly).
I think the changes will be a very wellcome boost to ships I've really considered utterly useless in the past.
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously |
Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.10 15:42:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Haros Change is crap ihmo. Thank god im not flying ammar :) I feel for u m8. Some ships might get boosted (malediction? Heretic?) by this some might get nerfed (Sacrilege), but imagine the Khanid change going up long term. Which Ammar BS is Khanid btw? Torps coming out of an Apoc or Arma? Since this change is about Khanid as CCP puts it then y not change the BS as well or even the capital ships? Capital Assault Missiles anyone?
Other than the Khanid Mk II Sacrilege having more DPS, more speed, less weight, and more tank than the existing version (same for the Vengence), I'm not sure how you see it as a nerf (other than by someone refusing to train missiles).
I believe that folks say that the Apocalypse is the Khanid Amarr Battleship.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.10 16:16:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Haros
Which Ammar BS is Khanid btw? Torps coming out of an Apoc or Arma?
Neither.
They're both T1 ships while the Khanid ships are all T2.
Of course, a T2 Khanid battleship with bonuses to torpedoes will have a lot of people salivating (me included).
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Kunming
The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services
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Posted - 2007.08.14 18:41:00 -
[129]
3 Viziam 5 Carthum 8 Khanid
This is the make up of the T2 ships for Amarr, dont come telling me the majority of ships are still laser ships cause they are not! The majority of the T2 ships are Khanid and now missile boats.. This mean after the change, there will be 16-20 Missile spamming T2 ships and only 8 Laser ships with 3 having dmg bonus!!
CCP its still not too late, pls I beg you dont **** up laser users. I hope you do realize that this will make missiles the most lucrative skill by opening up around 20 T2 ships while heavily punishing those that specialized in lasers who will be limited to 8 T2 ships.
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Julius Romanus
Free Space Development Cartel
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Posted - 2007.08.14 18:51:00 -
[130]
Can I have your stuff?
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Kunming
The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:25:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Julius Romanus Can I have your stuff?
No but you can troll else where
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Wufong Wei
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:32:00 -
[132]
Got a Amarran alt who is training as fast as possible to use the 6 Vengeances I bought for him, and hopefully not blow them all up. :)
Will be interesting to skill up an Amarran character without touching the Gunnery tree for a while...:)
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:33:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Kunming 3 Viziam 5 Carthum 8 Khanid
This is the make up of the T2 ships for Amarr, dont come telling me the majority of ships are still laser ships cause they are not! The majority of the T2 ships are Khanid and now missile boats.. This mean after the change, there will be 16-20 Missile spamming T2 ships and only 8 Laser ships with 3 having dmg bonus!!
If all the Khanid are converted to missiles... wouldn't that be 8, not 16-20? And, if it is 8, and the 5+3=8 of the non-Khanid are laser ships, wouldn't that be 8/16 = 0.5, or half, not the majority?
Also, the Crusader, Retribution, Zealot, and Absolution all have laser damage bonuses (in addition to either range, tracking, or rate of fire bonuses) so there are at least four.
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CrimsonSky
Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:42:00 -
[134]
Not quite sure where all this negativity towards the Mk2 changes is coming from. I can kind of see why people would be upset that they need to train missiles should they want to fly the Khanid ships now, I'd say it's well worth the extra training time to finally get some versatility.
I'm an Amarr pilot, with 35m SP in Amarr ships and lasers, and 500k in missiles. I was extremely happy when this change was announced, and immediately went to training missiles. I see this change as a much-needed change to Amarr, finally offering Amarrian pilots new options for combat-ships.
And honestly, I'd happily train millions of SP into missiles to have the Khanid ships stay unique, instead of just being weaker versions of the Laserboats.
"But again, EVE is much less focused on combat and dangerous encounters than other online RPGs"-Gamespot.com |
Kunming
The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:44:00 -
[135]
Thats counting in the caldari T2 missile boats (crow, flycatcher, cerberus, nighthawk, +4), all bombers (+4), gallente T2 ships with missile bonus (ares, lachesis, +2), and the minmatar ships makes up already 20 ships together with Khanid.
Missiles Online 4TW.. not!
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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Azuse
The Brotherhood Of The Blade The Makhai
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Posted - 2007.08.14 20:53:00 -
[136]
Personally, i find it most amusing that someone is so insenced with a change they fell the need to create and spam a thread for two weeks constantly .
At a point in your eve life, generally around the 12-18 month mark, you learn that in order to really progress you'll end up with a verity of skills, and that you don't actually need to train all of them for each race. While i am having difficulty understanding where your negativity/mild mannered derangement is coming from, i find it strange that someone who remember flying the original malediction has not learned this.
Further, if you have indeed be in eve that long you should know two things by now.
Firstly, if ccp has released comprehensive notes and a sisi patch it is for fine tuning, it is happening whether you enjoy it or not. It is their game, built to their design, if you do not like what they do code your own.
Secondly. You should know by now that if you genuinely wish to influence a change in eve then you should be presenting your argument clearly, with correct math, in the games development forum. However this one i believe you know, or at least suspect seeing as the sum total of your argument is "Khanid Abominations with missiles"
On a side note... A four year old player should have very, very few skills available for them to train that could advance their play, assuming of course, that they had focused entiarly on ammar, armour, turrets (did you never train missels skills for them in the past?).
There is no substitute for pilot experience.
Support the Space Whales! |
Lord Loom
Loom Service Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.08.14 21:29:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Kunming Thats counting in the caldari T2 missile boats (crow, flycatcher, cerberus, nighthawk, +4), all bombers (+4), gallente T2 ships with missile bonus (ares, lachesis, +2), and the minmatar ships makes up already 20 ships together with Khanid.
Missiles Online 4TW.. not!
my you're bitter... ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
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Disco Flint
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.14 23:01:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Disco Flint on 14/08/2007 23:02:31 Edited by: Disco Flint on 14/08/2007 23:01:39 Huh... people still complaining about Khanid mkII? Get this: every race has to deal with skilling for multiple forms of warfare, turrets, missiles, drones, ewar, whatever. Amarr was lacking in variability also because they didn't have anything except for the odd drone boat and their recons.
Now they get some ships changed to incorporate a new form of warfare. Ships which as of now are barely worth flying. And even better, these new Khanid ships don't follow the pretty boring Caldari mission runner doctrine, but instead focus entirely on short range rockets and HAMs. Something relatively new, since sluggish Caldari ships can rarely make use of these short ranged missiles.
~20 T2 ships? I'm counting more like 15, amonst those the 4 stealth bombers, and you'd kinda expect them to use missiles amongst all races. So 11 missile ships, where missiles are a primary/secondary weapon system to three races. Versus 8 laser boats which only one race favours. Big deal. And as for not following the predecessors' line of ship design: You should double check the Hawk, the Crow, the Flycatcher and the Nighthawk. Also, again the stealth bombers which all but the Manticore don't fall in the same category as the ships their based on. Or the Eos, from a pure blaster ganker to a .. well, drone ganker. Oh and only 3 of your turret ships have a damage bonus? My, care to check the Caldari rail ships?
So, summary? Don't know. I'm looking forward to Khanid MkII.
edited for spelling mistakes :|
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Aya Otosaki
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.08.14 23:07:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Lord Loom Edited by: Lord Loom on 04/08/2007 22:12:09
Originally by: Aya Otosaki I wont say that these new changes are bad because i have no clue about that. what kinda bugs me is that this change isnt rewarding the amarr players that stuck with amarr even though they sucked a bit, their are more rewarding for caldari players because they can easily cross train to amarr and by amarr i mean that khanid stuff.
you realize that for the "lulz Caldari missile spammer" to crosstrain to the few Khanid ships they're looking at cruiser training to 5 (about a month with some learning skills and implants) and a whole new type of tanks, while you bullheaded laser fanboys only need to invest a week or two into missiles to be effective, or about a month to be specialized in HAMs?
it rewards the open-minded Amarr players who've been waiting ages for some of their T2 ships to stop sucking, it rewards the Amarr players who've been waiting for properly tanked ships that aren't heavily cap-challenged. It does not reward the people who refused to train anything outside of the "classical" armor tank + laser gank skill tree, and rightly so.
?
why should the khanid changes not reward armour/lazer, plz do tell. Am i being close minded when i say that these changes reward caldari more than amarr, i just think im telling the truth. I know you feel you need to protect your shc buddy but get real. ----- Ignorance is my strength. |
Clear Knight
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Posted - 2007.08.14 23:54:00 -
[140]
my problem with khanid mkII is not about the missiles skills, it's about the fact that the bonus to only close range missiles takes away our choise of range. with standards or heavys we can choose to engage at range.
Khanid mkII is a mix of caldari and amarr. neither caldari or amarr are close range fighters so where did that idea came from? |
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.15 03:51:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Clear Knight my problem with khanid mkII is not about the missiles skills, it's about the fact that the bonus to only close range missiles takes away our choise of range. with standards or heavys we can choose to engage at range.
Khanid mkII is a mix of caldari and amarr. neither caldari or amarr are close range fighters so where did that idea came from?
If the bonus was applied to heavy's along with the HAM's then I don't think anyone would ever use the HAM's. A big problem with HAM's is that there weren't any ships that were fast enough or close range oriented in order to use them effectively. Now we have some ships that can use them effectively (not the speed increase and mass reduction for the sacrilege...which is pretty sweet if you already know how it handles).
Close range missile spamming super tank ship. Something new...and interesting...and fun for gate camping in low sec. ---
Put in space whales!
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boogaboob
Caldari Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.08.15 05:15:00 -
[142]
Goddamn whiners.
Dear god people, rocket 5 is FIVE DAYS of training. Heavy Assault 5 is another couple weeks.
Now, compare that to me, a caldari training armor tanking and Amarr Cruiser 5 up just so i can fly these new ships. MUCH more training. You have it easy.
Armor tanking missile ships ftw. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you whiners get these changes pulled I am going to effing kill* all of you.
*ingame
Signatures done by me! Evemail me! Anyone? No? Aww...
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Lord Loom
Loom Service Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.08.15 09:42:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Aya Otosaki ?
why should the khanid changes not reward armour/lazer, plz do tell. Am i being close minded when i say that these changes reward caldari more than amarr, i just think im telling the truth. I know you feel you need to protect your shc buddy but get real.
ad hominem, I like it
why should it reward laser users? Khanid ships have never really been about the lasers, although you could fit them. So far Amarr was the only race without a proper secondary weapon system, now there's short range missiles. All races have their T2 boats (and the T1 ships - which remain a pure matter of armor+laser for you) split in half (eg. hybrids-drones; hybrids-missiles and, well, speed-versatility or however you wanna classify minmatar specs), you were able to focus on training a single weapon system and use all your ships "effciently" (although the Khanid ships sucked), now you need to specialize or expand your skill plan to another weapon system like everyone else. Big deal.
you're wrong if you claim this change suits Caldari pilots more because of their SP in missiles - it's easier to get short range missile spec and a few missile support skills than to train up for T2 armor tanks and cross-racial ships. The only way they reward "them" more is if you refuse to train a few SP in missiles, which would indeed make you close-minded
so much about "get real" ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
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Kunming
The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services
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Posted - 2007.08.15 10:24:00 -
[144]
Oh right complaining about a most radical change is "whining" when it doesnt suit you and its "making arguements" when it suits you.
If I wanted to use missiles I would have trained caldari from the begining, I dont like missiles, its not even about the skills, I got launcher op 5 and some other high skills in there, MISSILES ARE NOT FUN FOR ME.. after all its FUN what we playing this game for.
You start the game and have a look at the races, then choose what you like to use and what you have fun with. Years later when you specialized they change the concept and add the thing you hated with a passion.. missiles.
When talking to most missile lovers, I tell them "look blasters, they pwn at close range" and the answer I get "Nah I like missiles, the vestile range and dmg type is what I prefer above uber DPS", which is perfectly fine, everyone uses what he likes using, what fits their style, apparently this change FORCES you to use a different weapon and style which you didnt wanted from the begining.
Its also amazing how u missile/caldari fanbois try to hide the fact that Amarr secondary weapon is and was drones since 2003! Minmatar, just like Amarr have both their T2 ships equiped with the same weapon system, projectiles; now I dont see anyone complaining about arty boats.. since they are not broken like the Beam boats, so instead of fixing the beam boats they turn them into missile boats. IF you look at it this way minmatar dont have a secondary weapon system either, lets turn some of their arty boats into missile boats since that seems to be the trend these days.
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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ry ry
StateCorp The State
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Posted - 2007.08.15 10:27:00 -
[145]
Edited by: ry ry on 15/08/2007 10:28:55
Quote: his change FORCES you to use a different weapon and style which you didnt wanted from the begining.
you can still put lasers on the khanid ships if you like.
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Jernau Gurgeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.15 10:30:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Kunming
Its also amazing how u missile/caldari fanbois try to hide the fact that Amarr secondary weapon is and was drones since 2003!
Number of Amarrian specialised T1 drone boats - 1 Number of Amarrian specialised T1 missile boats - 1
Conclusion - missiles are as much a secondary weapon for Amarrians as drones
There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not. |
Kunming
The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services
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Posted - 2007.08.15 10:44:00 -
[147]
Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 15/08/2007 10:28:55
Quote: his change FORCES you to use a different weapon and style which you didnt wanted from the begining.
you can still put lasers on the khanid ships if you like.
No you cant. And they dont get any bonus either.
And about missiles/drones on Amarr ships, Amarr ship have more drone bay than the measly missle hard point count. Basically compare max missle DPS on any Amarr ship with max drone DPS on any other Amarr ship, drones will beat it by a large margin. Hence why ppl took the missle hard points on Amarr ships as serious as the missle hardpoints on a gallente blasterboat...
Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
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ry ry
StateCorp The State
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Posted - 2007.08.15 10:55:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Kunming
Quote: his change FORCES you to use a different weapon and style which you didnt wanted from the begining.
you can still put lasers on the khanid ships if you like.
No you cant. And they dont get any bonus either.
yes you can. everything except the sacri has one or two turret hardpoints.
fill the rest with nos or something if you're that desperate to avoid using missiles.
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lyrenna
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.15 11:01:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Haros
Capital Assault Missiles anyone?
citadel torpedos are already "assault missiles" they are unguided, they are torpedos.
=== when you armor tank a raven god kills a kitten. === |
Lord Loom
Loom Service Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.08.15 13:37:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Lord Loom on 15/08/2007 13:39:16
Originally by: Kunming more pointless ranting
Minmatar need to train even more (missiles, projectiles and drones)
again, if you're that butthurt about having to use missiles, stick to the Viziam and Carthum ships? ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
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