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Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:44:00 -
[31]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 30/07/2007 18:52:05
Quote: The "main" weapon system of the Pilgrim and the Curse is neutralizing the enemies capacitor
So, given that you understand how a curse works.. why not fit.. oh.. NEUTRALIZERS? hehe.. Just when people find the 'i win' button ccp turns it off and everyone who can't pvp without it whines all over the forums..
Curse was a bit too powerful as it was anyway, its main weapon bonuses (at the time) being the most powerful module you can fit on a ship :P
because turning off a I-win button makes the game... more... dull? lol, oh ma I'm ust waiting for someone to say CCP is making eve dull by changing this :P
more dull? WHY! because your safe in your nos battleship? I'm sorry but if CCP turns up the heat get the F out!
and on topic o the curse :P I think it should get to ignore the new nos rule, as the main reason for nos was it killed frigates tackling a battleship.
the curse should be able to wipe out those frigs for th battleship now.
but that's in lag-free eve-online :P
sigh.
Curse is not a battleship that has been converted to a nosser. Curse is a ship that kills it's opponent primarily by nos. There is no alternative to this. Feel free to train a Curse and put all turrets or all missiles on it.
Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ. |
Zolofine
M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:31:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Zolofine on 31/07/2007 03:32:13 So why not simply apply a stacking nerf to nos? The idea is to stop people filling their high slots with them isn't it?
Who gives a crap about stuf like rups and pests fitting 1-2 nos?
As far as the amarr recons go; Change their bonus to give them a boost to neutz. Problem solved, they can still perform their cap draining leetness, but they will be dispensing cap to do so instead of feeding their tank with the cap they're sucking out of you...
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Narishema
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:33:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Narishema on 31/07/2007 03:34:11 people seem to be misunderstanding the changes...
if you have 80% cap and you opponent has 40% and you turn on a NOS.. you get zilch. Nothing happens.
Now if you have 40%, and your target has 80% you'll start draining UNTIL the point you equal their cap. Assuming they stop use on cap, then the NOS will stop draining when both ships get equal. If I was going to use rounded off numbers this would be when each ship reaches 60%.
Which means NOS only drains when you have less cap than your target. If you have the same or more then activating NOS does nothing. Think of the new NOSSers as a balancer.
As for how this affects the curse/pilgrim they aren't all powerful anymore. Yes, they still get their bonus to nos draining and it will be worth it to equip a single nos still, but a full rack? nope. Use the rest of your rack for NRG turrents. This way, with the bigger drone bay + turrents you do more DPS in a curse/pilgrim than any other recon ship AND when you start running low on cap from the turrents, you can drain faster than any other ship to get back up.
THAT was the intended design of NOS's and those recon boats. People just got used to the IWIN ability of the all out nossing and using drones to pop the target afterward.
Now, is this the best implementation for a nerf that brings NOS and those boats back into intended design? That is debatable, but I think it will work.
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Promithius
Amarr Subach-Tech FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:36:00 -
[34]
frankly i think this is THE WORSE thought out nerf yet , all your doing is killing the whole game dynamic think about if for just a moment , honestly you will break pvp i cant be bothered to go into length about it
nos only work if your cap low so burn your cap logic= dont have high recharge wtf you will kill it all
also why neft the ONLY thing that makes nos role boats any good , stooped idea Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Zolofine
M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:58:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Narishema As for how this affects the curse/pilgrim they aren't all powerful anymore. Yes, they still get their bonus to nos draining and it will be worth it to equip a single nos still, but a full rack? nope. Use the rest of your rack for NRG turrents. This way, with the bigger drone bay + turrents you do more DPS in a curse/pilgrim than any other recon ship AND when you start running low on cap from the turrents, you can drain faster than any other ship to get back up.
Yeah the only issues is that you capsource isn't going to work on anything smaller than you, hehe. Since 30 cap drained out of a frig is what? 30% of it's total cap?? You'll drain it in one go... no wait you wont cause that isn't allowed.
Bigger targets? Not really, you'll get pwned... hard. Cruisers? Yeah, maybe it'll be a challenge though. So you fly around in a 100 mil ship that takes ages to train for only be a 'match' for T1 cruisers. Forget about hacs, you'll get pwned... hard.
The way i see it, recons are a support ship. Great to have in your gang, but not much good on their own. Which doesn't mean they can't handle themselves, it just means they are vulnerable.
All recons have a good support role. They attack one system very efficiently. Sensors, warp drives, targeting range/resolution, tracking, and the pilgrim attacks the cap... However it'll now have to do so with neutz though because i don't see nos as being feasonable in any way anymore. Your suggestion of a single nos turns the pilgrim into a weak T1 cruiser with crap all firepower and a ****ty tank.
Pilgrim users are just going to have to get used to generating their own cap, and dispensing cap to use their most effective weapon...
If that's going to be feasonable is another question though. Pilgrim is a pretty tight fit and if you're going to fit highish end lasers + neutz + speed mods + active tank you're gonna end up with a caphungry monster. On the other hand, you opponent will also be pretty cap hungry with you neutralizing his cap...
Cap neut drones anyone?
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 11:06:00 -
[36]
Originally by: doctorstupid2 It's also worth pointint out that with combat drone op 5, interfacing 5, and drone spec 4, a pilgrim/curse does 233 DPS from 5 Hammerhead II's, in contrast a 200mm rail arazu slinging antimatter around does 220 (with 3 hammers and 2 hobbies) and doesn't get to nos things down. The damage output of amarr recons is already on par with the other recons, but it's the only one that also gets to turn your tank off. It's not like it's being rendered useless here.
You are comparing a force recon against a force & combat recon here. Do I need to explain why this is a flawed comparsion?
For force recons the pilgrim does indeed deal the most damage - however it has also the worst operational range due to having no range bonus for his secondary EW, but only a strength bonus.
For combat recons the curse is the 3rd weakest dps dealer though. Both lach and huginn deal due to 3 HML around 100 dps more.
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Kirov VIII
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Posted - 2007.07.31 11:42:00 -
[37]
Please ... Wait & Try the new system before whine on the forums !
The idea on nos is really great. There are 2 ships concerned by that is the curse and the pilgrim. All other ship aren't designed for NOS ! The best solution IF curse/pilgrim have problem, it's reduce the power consumption of energy neutralizer and remove the bonus of nos. Ishtar/dom and other gallente/minmatar ship have another MAIN weapon. Yes, it's not the ultimate pwned machine : nos, 5 heavy drone & ECM. ECM => nerfl (if not designed for that), NOS => nerfl (if not designed for that). You have drone, your main weapon. STOP whine thx
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Johnster
Caldari Resistance is Futile
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Posted - 2007.07.31 12:58:00 -
[38]
Nos needed to be nerfed... but why not base the drain ammount on the ship's sig radius?
eg: heavy nos has much less effect (say 5->10%) on a frig, but has say 50% effect on a cruiser and 100% effect on a battleship.
Mediums would have 25% effect on a frig and 100% effect on a cruiser or larger.
Smalls would always have 100% effect.
..just my thoughts..
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Tahmee Bhakeur
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Posted - 2007.07.31 14:15:00 -
[39]
Curse should not be a solo-pwnmobile that just mwd's around the target at 3000m/s with 2 damps/track-dis scrambling the target until the enemy is drained/ganked. Losing a fully T2 fitted raven or other BS for no other reason that "yeah guys, SOB just zipped around nossing me to death for 15 minutes. After 2 minutes, I just walked away, sat in the corner and cried as 500 million worth of ship/gear died."
Change Curse/Pilgrim to the "Khanid/Caldarified" versions. Curse could end up with 5 high, 4 mid, 5 low and the Pilgrim with 4 high, 4 mid, 5 low, and both having HAM's.
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Vaedian GER
Excidium.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 15:24:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Nikol Kidman NO. Curse and Pilgrim still be a good ships, because they also have launcher hardpoints. Just drop 1 NOS for HAM launcher.
That's the best thing I heard in years, you do fit Lasers on them as well don't you?
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Zinrix
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:18:00 -
[41]
To everyone who is continuously saying something along the lines of "Oh, this ship was designed for that role, so it shouldn't be able to do it", what you might as well be advocating is the removal of modules entirely and the dumbing down of the game to your level. In Eve, your ability to think creatively and adapt to your environment gives you an edge over even the opponent that has been playing the game for 2 years longer than you. Please stop telling me what a ship was or was not designed to do. I don't care. I only care what it can do with some decent thought.
That being said, as a pilgrim pilot in a ship that is already overshadowed by both the Rapier and Arazu, I'm really hurt by this. I understand its necessity though. It seems to me that a NOS should leach off your capacitor recharge rate rather than neutralizing your existing capacitor. I would like to see a NOS add a percentage to your cap recharge rate while removing that same percentage from your opponent. It won't kill someone's cap, but if they use cap intensive modules, they'll have no way to support them and their cap will naturally die over a longer time. This can be augmented by a stacking penalty and of course this is just a little speculation, but I think it makes more sense than the present course of action.
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MECTO
Xenobytes Stain Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:03:00 -
[42]
well, all i can say Amarr & Recons - RIP
hail new caldari boats!
It's Great Being Carebear in Kali - aint it?
Originally by: Tuxford In this picture you might think that Gallente totally pwn. Well they're alright
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Wyliee
Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.07.31 19:29:00 -
[43]
if you have rubbish cap skills noz's are gonna work better for you.
your target has good cap skills he wil always have a better cap than you, then you can noz him and drag his cap down to your level.
if you have rubbish neut skills you wil use more cap to run your neuts therefore your noz's will pull down your targets cap to your level.
i see it wil benefit people with rubbish skills and nerf those with better skills
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Baugoti
Amarr Middle Finger Technology Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.07.31 20:09:00 -
[44]
yay for another
lets see how we can screw over amarr today!
ooo yay our pulses track better now... now that we did one thing for amarr.. lets ruin everything they had going for em.
im sorry but it is really getting annoying reading patches that give caldari this, gallente this, minmatar this, amarr "i knew we were forgetting someone".
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Mr Smooth
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Posted - 2007.07.31 20:54:00 -
[45]
Will the whiners not be happy until you can start playing this game, climb into any ship, take on and beat any player solo regardless of experience? This game is being destroyed by whiners and apparently with CCPs blessing. It will soon be "Arcade Mode" Eve, with no need to specialise or train at all for that matter.
We could stop huginns webbing at 50km+, stop lachesis scramming at 40km+ and stop rooks being able to jam at all. That would make it well worth while training for recons do you think? While we're at it, we could stop interceptors going so fast and those damn interdictors are just a pain with their sphere launchers.
This nerf is not well thought out and simply plays into the hands of the people who apparently spend more time whining about the game than actually playing it. "boohoo i lost my ship and it was nothing at all to do with the fact that i picked the wrong fight or was an inferior pilot. It must have been 'cos my opponent had a ship that was unfairly advantaged in some way. nerf it nerf it!!". Maybe if you spent more time actually playing the game and less time whining you might figure out a way of winning next time.
Sorry if this seems like a rant, but i have real worries that this downhill trend wont stop 'til everyone is flying exactly the same ship. Before anyone asks, no you cant have my stuff cos i intend to stick around for a little while longer.
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WhiteDiamonds
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Posted - 2007.07.31 21:09:00 -
[46]
My sentiments exactly Mr Smooth. Very well put.
Everytime I train a long skill to get into a certain ship. By the time I get all the skills trained in order to fly the ship- the ship gets nerfed. How fair is that?
It is annoying and quite disturbing that this game is not considering the "OLDER PLAYERS" any longer.
I really wish ccp would consider those of us that have been in game for years and really play the game everyday versus the weekend players.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.31 21:38:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Mr Smooth Will the whiners not be happy until you can start playing this game, climb into any ship, take on and beat any player solo regardless of experience?
This very sentance is so much rubbish. A NEW, as in FIRST DAY character could fit a Heavy NOS if the ship he was flying had the grid. FIRST DAY. As compared to how many days to put T2 weapons on a "battleship" sized ship? 70? 80? If it took 70 days to put heavy NOS on your ship we wouldn't be having this conversation because very few people would actually be able to fit it. NOS was too easy and too powerful.
But I agree that the Amarr recons need to be redone to not lose their power due to this change. Maybe a 7.5% decrease in Cap use per cycle of Neut per level or such. Make them feared, but no "I Win" buttons. <-----------> Factional Warfare:
The LowSec wars which never happened. |
Mobyr Rutthelm
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Posted - 2007.07.31 22:41:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Johnster Nos needed to be nerfed... but why not base the drain amount on the ship's sig radius?
Best post here, simple and elegant solution, and encourages a variety of possible setups. Are you listening CCP?...
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Rugs
Dragon Highlords
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Posted - 2007.07.31 22:52:00 -
[49]
So much whine about the whine. Anyway people don't realize that this kills the amarr recons completely. They live on the target's cap, and when it's gone or you can't get anymore of it you usually die vs most ships. Let's compare with a Lachesis/Arazu which can dampen pretty much ANY ship below 30km locking range, sensor booster fitted or not AND they can scramble them beyond that range and eventually kill them even if it takes a while as it does with a curse/pilgrim too. So let's nerf the gallente recons as well, say that you can't dampen them to lower than your own targeting range, that would be awesome!! But hey you still got guns and drones right, live with it... Oh and the discussion has been mostly about the Curse, the pilgrim is definitely useless once this nerf is done it has no use whatsoever anymore except an expensive cyno ship. And this discussion wasn't really focused on the NOS nerf but what it does to the Amarr recons. Caldari/Minmatar recons are fine, no need to compare all of them, just used Gallente ones as someone tried to point out how bad they were comapared to Amarr ones.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.08.01 02:28:00 -
[50]
You know what 'Recon' means, don't you?
_________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. - |
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Anaal Nathrakh
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Posted - 2007.08.01 04:02:00 -
[51]
run a MWD on your Curse, get your cap lower and the Nos should work better. or am I misunderstanding the mechanics?
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Herculite
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.01 06:13:00 -
[52]
These ships most definitely (as well as the blood raider faction ships) need a new bonus as this is a massive nerf to them, far more than any other ship class.
This would be like removing 50% of a vagabonds max speed and expecting the ship to still be used.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie |
Jadon Calbert
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Posted - 2007.08.01 08:41:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Tahmee Bhakeur Curse should not be a solo-pwnmobile that just mwd's around the target at 3000m/s with 2 damps/track-dis scrambling the target until the enemy is drained/ganked. Losing a fully T2 fitted raven or other BS for no other reason that "yeah guys, SOB just zipped around nossing me to death for 15 minutes. After 2 minutes, I just walked away, sat in the corner and cried as 500 million worth of ship/gear died."
Change Curse/Pilgrim to the "Khanid/Caldarified" versions. Curse could end up with 5 high, 4 mid, 5 low and the Pilgrim with 4 high, 4 mid, 5 low, and both having HAM's.
"Sensor Booster".
I agree the curse is a little over powered as it is. The curse is not a solo pwnmoble just because of the nos alone. Its a pwnmoble because its damps you below lock range, noses you to make up for its low dps, and speed tanks your drones. If you negate any one of these things the curse is actualy kind of weak.
The Pilgram on the other hand got hit hard when they did the jamming nerf. Before it could jam you and nos you till you died. Now you can only damp certian ships below 12 and only with perfect damp skills. Every time you fight someone in a pilgram its a "holy crap im gonna die" situation because you have no idea weather or not you will be able to damp them below 12k or if your tank will hold out.
Now people saying the curse will be fine just throw some neuts on are wrong. you can't run the other mods you need and the neuts for long. If you think you will nosing to replinish your lost cap your wrong because you already neuted them below you with the first volley of neuts. It will be a capless standstill that the curse will lose because belive it or not its acutaly quite fragile.
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Zonemann
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Posted - 2007.08.01 10:32:00 -
[54]
Another useless nerf implement for the crying masses, to all who shouts NERF, go play WoW...
All this nerf this , nerf that makes me wanna puke in space, wait maybe i'll do that in Jita4-4
Bunch of crybabies !!!!!!
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Raal Throx
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.08.01 11:07:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Raal Throx on 01/08/2007 11:11:27
Originally by: Rugs So much whine about the whine. Anyway people don't realize that this kills the amarr recons completely. They live on the target's cap, and when it's gone or you can't get anymore of it you usually die vs most ships. Let's compare with a Lachesis/Arazu which can dampen pretty much ANY ship below 30km locking range, sensor booster fitted or not AND they can scramble them beyond that range and eventually kill them even if it takes a while as it does with a curse/pilgrim too. So let's nerf the gallente recons as well, say that you can't dampen them to lower than your own targeting range, that would be awesome!! But hey you still got guns and drones right, live with it... Oh and the discussion has been mostly about the Curse, the pilgrim is definitely useless once this nerf is done it has no use whatsoever anymore except an expensive cyno ship. And this discussion wasn't really focused on the NOS nerf but what it does to the Amarr recons. Caldari/Minmatar recons are fine, no need to compare all of them, just used Gallente ones as someone tried to point out how bad they were comapared to Amarr ones.
Aye quoted for truth problem is you are on the eve-o forums which is pretty much filled with noobs that have no idea on game mechanics.
Btw for yah nubs that suggest neuts to use NOS... I hate to break it to all you rocket scientists out there but it wont work. Fact of the matter is a neut will drain alot more cap from the target then yourself. Seeing CCP already stated the whole process is percentage based you will only hurt yourself doing so in that you won't be able to nos for very long if at all.
Another funny fact having lower lvl in Energy emision systems is in this case actually better since it drains more of your own cap. Anyway learn2play and heres to hoping CCP think about current game mechanics and change th intended nerf to either be sig radius, trakign or stacking nerfed.
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tikinish
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Posted - 2007.08.01 11:52:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Hmm sacrifice 2 ships and gain, what, 20? Now that sounds like a fair trade to me.
Just combine nos with neuts and you get the same effect. Perhaps even improved.
but don't you understand?! they nerfed something EXSTREMELY OVERPOWERED THAT I!!!! USED!!! did i point out the reason for this to be so lame is that I!! ME !!! ONLY US!! that have gotten an unfair advantage for so long, got nerfed to match the point of the system from the start!?
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Angelus Xenotov
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Posted - 2007.08.01 12:46:00 -
[57]
CCP Nerf style: Fix it by breaking it!
No doubt there are afew people who are jumping for joy, but completely breaking a method of combat (Cap warfare/ECM/Straight damage) because some people can't hack it is just pathetic, nos was fine, now it sucks.
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F90OEX
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:08:00 -
[58]
Spent a few hrs yesterday on the test server, went 1 on 1 with few curse/pilgrim pilots... cut a long story short, the 2 ships are now useless under the current changes, there is also PG issues too with certain fits. Several setups where tried, none of them anywhere near usable.
Nope, I don't fly Amarr ships, wanted to, but was curious before I invested the time to see how the changes effect these ships.
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Inflexible
InNova Tech Inc
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Posted - 2007.08.01 15:10:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Setana Manoro
Originally by: Edania change one of there bonii to somthing like -10% effective cap for nos calculations which means if your full you can take them to 50% if your at 50% you can take them to 25% with max skills
think that wouldwork
This is a bloody awesome ideea. :)
It will completely wreck entire nerf idea - make impossible keep someone dry without any effort. (it is same for every other "nerf" idea anyway) But nice try
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