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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:24:00 -
[211]
Drones - not really. If your ship is slow enough to be catched by heavies it is anything but a nanoship. Meds.. max speed that is 3200 of valks - most nanoships are faster than that.
Remaining..small drones. Which do not do much dps vs anything but a frigatesized target and have low HP.
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Sun Paktu
Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:30:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Celedris Guns are overpowered and need to be balanced. A non-specialized ship can fit guns (e.g. a ship without a gun bonus) and kill someone else's ship to the point of it being useless. Guns work 100% of the time. I should not have to setup my ship specifically to counter other people's gun damage because guns are overpowered.
Guns are fitted on the VAST majority of ships in this game, and almost all player kills can be directly attributed to guns. Guns have no effective counter; sure I could fit a tank on my ship but then I have to give up at least TWO or THREE slots on my ship in order to fit any semblance of a tank. THREE slots, and that still won't counter guns very well. Realistically I'd need to sacrifice 5-6 slots in order to make my tank immune to damage from the guns of one enemy ship, but even then when I am attacked by guns from two or more enemy ships I STILL DIE! WTF?!
Anyone else agree?
If personally would like the ability to snipe somebodies shinie t2 guns off their gunboats because they can shoot down my drones. If you can influence the dps of my ship I should be able to do the same but can't. Maybe we can make drones immune to missiles and guns. That would balance things out I think.
I'm gallente nerf me again plz thank you
See you in space.
-Sun Paktu, Paktu Kiith'Sa and co-founder
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Hannobaal
Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:31:00 -
[213]
Originally by: General Coochie I think whines about damps to 90% come from ppl who got ownd by a recon with damps fitted. Yes damps are very good on these ships
Actually, the Gallente Recons get the exact same bonus to sensor dampeners that the Celestis has. That is, of course, provided you have Gallente Cruiser skill at 5. They do have more mid slots so they could fit more dampeners, but with stacking penalties that isn't such a big thing anyway. At least not in 1v1. ------------------
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ITTigerClawIK
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 17:12:00 -
[214]
you may take my ECM but you are NOT going to take the last thing i have to defend myself from Caldari missile ships ...
If ya want soemthing to Nerf why dont you Nerf all races natural resistences to EM and Thermal dmg... you would finaly give Amarr a decent "OOMPH!" like we so desperately need
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.08.03 17:44:00 -
[215]
If people use damps while killing you, you die twiddling your thumbs and watching health bars go down. If you die from too much dps, you go down with guns blazing and at least trying to maybe take something with you.
Now start thinking about why people who play for fun complain about too powerful Ewar but don't complain about too powerful guns/tanks. Not that I expect the play for epeen people to be able to understand this, having someone else at their mercy totally unable to do anything is probably giving them the best kick they can get
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Hannobaal
Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.03 17:56:00 -
[216]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/08/2007 18:00:00
Originally by: Leandro Salazar If people use damps while killing you, you die twiddling your thumbs and watching health bars go down.
Or, more often the case in my experience when I've fought ships like that, you run up close, lock them and melt their paper-thin ship away like a hot knife through butter.
Quote: If you die from too much dps, you go down with guns blazing and at least trying to maybe take something with you.
This is not an FPS!!! You don't aim and fire your weapons. You target a ship, turn them on and that's it.
If you take all other tactical elements other than simple firepower versus ship defense out of the game, what's left? Combat would be as boring as a spreadsheet. And why? Because you don't like being forced to actually think and be tactically creative? ------------------
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Pheonix Kanan
Caldari Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:31:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Hannobaal
This is not an FPS!!!
Finally, someone gets it.
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Suicide ganks leads to anger, anger leads to forum whining, forum whining leads to game changes.
The dark side of the force is strong in here.
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MrRookie
Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:52:00 -
[218]
The Gallente recons are ok since they are otherwise defenceless and weak and supposed to specialized in ewar. Fast ships dictating range while using damps is a silly overpowered combination. I'll sign the idea of nerfing them and giving the specialized ships bether bonuses to damps. Sig removed. Please email us at [email protected] if you would like to know why. -Conuion Meow
May I have pink next time plz? |
Sun Paktu
Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:53:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/08/2007 18:07:16
Originally by: Leandro Salazar If people use damps while killing you, you die twiddling your thumbs and watching health bars go down.
Or, more often the case in my experience when I've fought ships like that, you simply run up close, lock them and melt their paper-thin ship away like a hot knife through butter.
Quote: If you die from too much dps, you go down with guns blazing and at least trying to maybe take something with you.
This is not an FPS!!! You don't aim and fire your weapons. You target a ship, turn them on and that's it.
If you take all other tactical elements other than simple firepower versus ship defense out of the game, what's left? Combat would be as boring as a spreadsheet. And why? Because you don't like being forced to actually think and be tactically creative?
Well put this isn't halo, doom or quake.
Its a space game with enough plausibility to make it an enjoyable escape from reality if they completely waste ew with this nerf I can't begin to tell you how ****ed ill be.
See you in space.
-Sun Paktu, Paktu Kiith'Sa and co-founder
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Faydelm
Caldari The Burning Orphans Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:56:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Faydelm on 03/08/2007 18:56:59
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ChimeraRouge
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:57:00 -
[221]
I agree with the OP as it stands Remote Sensor Dampeners have been considered overpowered since 2004. Look at this thread http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=51816
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Lady Aevis
Leela's Lamas
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Posted - 2007.08.03 19:10:00 -
[222]
Edited by: Lady Aevis on 03/08/2007 19:12:47 Nos Nerf , Sensor dampener nerf ... curse ... heck might as well nano fit an arbitrator and use tracking disruptors , not much difference anyway. Way to go whiners !
p.s. Not to mention that you'll take away the only way to evade the omgwtfinstapop for any recon ship.
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Rhuu
Gallente Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.08.03 19:14:00 -
[223]
Originally by: ChimeraRouge I agree with the OP as it stands Remote Sensor Dampeners have been considered overpowered since 2004. Look at this thread http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=51816
Irrelevant. IIRC, damps got a nerf shortly thereafter, cutting their effectiveness down to somewhat more sane levels.
Later still, they were given optimal ranges and falloff.
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Toku Katayama
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.03 19:25:00 -
[224]
It's going to be a sad day a few months from now after the damp nerf, then then weapon disrupter nerf, that the same complainers are all going to be here crying about how target painters are totally overpowered.
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Harmon Illuminati
Caldari EVE Empowerment League Navy Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.03 19:35:00 -
[225]
ECM Nerf- Wasnt needed, people just needed to fit ECCM's, NOS Doesnt need to be nerfed, people just need to learn how to NOS back, Cap inject, do there Engineering skills, or live with it, OR EW them with (what should be unnerfed mods to get away from NOS)
DAMPS!!! Definetly Do not need to be nerfed, cos there is multiple ways of countering, MWDing, Sensor Boosting, locking faster and dampening first.
NERFing EW is stupid as for most to be effective, as in Optimal range on damps and effective ness, and increaseing strength on ECM Takes a while to train and if you use them, or its your roll in PVP you dont want them been changed because some carebear become Wanna BE PVPer cant handle it.
on the otherside, Running Damps and ECM on the wrong ship tends to end in a lack of cap, and if they are BS size and CAP isnt a big a drain for them, it doesnt matter becuase you can EW them first, Shut the hell up with the NERF bat becuase you fail to PVP our Counter other peoples modules.
One of these days it would be nice to see a come back, and after a whine/nerf thread the Subject gets overpowered.
Dampeners FTW, ECM's FTW. Nos FTW. Whineing Carebears FTL. so learn to fly, or STFU 7 GTFO.
ETC ETC.
ECM nerf still makes me cry, dont do it to me again :( LOL! |
William DeMeo
Gallente Dark and Light inc. D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.03 19:38:00 -
[226]
Edited by: William DeMeo on 03/08/2007 19:39:40 stfu
Edit:
Read past the first post and I'd like to say to everyone who are starting to get ****ed off by these nerfs, I totally agree. Coming up with good setups that are hard to beat should be rewarded, NOT ******* NERFED. Yarr |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.08.03 19:39:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Hannobaal If you take all other tactical elements other than simple firepower versus ship defense out of the game, what's left? Combat would be as boring as a spreadsheet. And why? Because you don't like being forced to actually think and be tactically creative?
Geez. I do not want EW to be taken out. I want it to be rebalanced. To make it a viable support weapon, not the main feature of ships that have no bonus for it. The gallente recons can remain as is for all I care, but the effect of 3 damps fitted on Recons, Ravens, Domis, BCs etc. needs to be nerfed. And only slightly so, -25% efficiency on unbonused ships would probably be enough to bring it in line.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Lady Aevis
Leela's Lamas
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Posted - 2007.08.03 19:52:00 -
[228]
And i suppose you want people to use a dual rep tank on the non-gallente recons, or 1600mm plates ?
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General Coochie
New Justice Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.03 19:55:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Aramendel Drones - not really. If your ship is slow enough to be catched by heavies it is anything but a nanoship. Meds.. max speed that is 3200 of valks - most nanoships are faster than that.
Remaining..small drones. Which do not do much dps vs anything but a frigatesized target and have low HP.
What I mean is that a dampning ship both have to be nanoed and fit for damp. You cant have 2-3 dampners on a non dedicated dampning ship and not be faster then your target with success.. If the other target is faster then you it can simply run away or approach and kill you. You have two choises; Dampning below 10km, wich requires atleast 3 dampners (un rigged max skills) and it will give you very little room to play with even against cruisers. A thorax with long range targeting V will be damped to 9km as an example. Or you run 2 dampners along with MWD and then you gotta be faster then your opponent wich requires atleast a nano in low, preferably an intertia stab and maybe an overdrive aswell or smth, cause otherwise they will manage to get out of scram range.
There arent that many ships in this game that can reach 3200ms and damp below scram range at the same time. As an example lachesis with T2 MWD and 3 overdrive IIs in lows will be reaching 2128ms. But we shouldnt forget the cap troubles a lachesis The few that can are obviously in that case overpowered together with damps and not because of damps alone.
I dont think you have to reach 3200ms with damps, I think you meant jsut nanoed ships.
But not having a speed advantage when using damps makes you loose. Signature removed - please reduce your signature graphic height to less than 120 pixels - Jacques([email protected]) |
Stelteck
Minmatar Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.03 20:05:00 -
[230]
i have a friend which is a very skilled arazu pilots, specialist in damp.
Two weeks ago we did a little test.
He got its arazu with 3 damps. I took my tempest and, trying to counter the damp effect, i put 4 sensors boosters T2.
Once damped by the ARAZU, my tempest with 4 sensors boosters T2 have a lock range of...... 21km ^^ Far to short to be effective.
The problem is not really that the dampeners are too powerfull, the problem is that the dampeners' counters are TOO WEAK.
There is no way currently to counter the damp effect.
Sensor boosters are not strong enough (And they stacked !! even with 6 SB T2 you will not counter an arazu damp), and there is no ECCM module for damp.
Perhaps its is the solution, make dampeners also dependant of sensor strengh.
Stelteck.
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Trojanman190
Caldari Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 20:27:00 -
[231]
ECCM is AWFUL. Please don't argue that it was useful, it wasn't. You are fitting a module that will ONLY be effective against a single type of enemy. If you don't meet that enemy it is a wasted slot. Many ships just don't have spare mids to toss out to mods like that. For a short range ship, you generally need 4 mids: Scram, Web, Cap Booster, Mwd. Drop one for an ECCM that will only help you if you meet a rook? What do you drop? What if you've only got freaking 3 mids? Its awful. The fix for ECM should have been to just make the counter more useful. What if an ECCM also acted like a more powerful sensor booster that didnt give a lock range bonus, 3x faster targetting. Ships fitting this module are protected to a degree from ECM and get a useful bonus.
It is a different situation with damps. The sensor booster exists and has effects that are useful when nobody is damping you, but it is a miserable counter to damps. Sensor boosters could bestow a resistance to damps upon the user, or provide an increase the absolute minimum range the user's range can be reduced to. There are plenty of ways to fix damps by not touching them and boosting something else. The exact same is true with nos.
ECM got completely trashed by ccp when the real problem rested in the worthless counter to ECM: ECCM. Add a useless module that only hardens against damps isn't the way to go, uber nerfing damps is not the way to go. CCP needs to add content before removing it.
And here is another thought... why cant they release multiple test variants on sisi for us to play with? Why cant we have a Damp MK I that take +50 cap to run in addition to the standard ones? Why can't at the same time we have sensor boosters that have a resists to damps, right along with the regular ones? CCP if you give us more to play with, we will play with it, and I think you will get better feedback. If you just bring some of these people's ideas to life, together, on the test server, for EVERYONE to play with you might have some shocking results. People who said "That will never work you stinking tard..." might be amazed when they are actually trying these [and im not refering to just my own]ideas. I don't see how it could possibly hurt.
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Kruel
Blunt Force Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.03 20:37:00 -
[232]
The problem isn't damps... Sensor boosters just need to be able to counter them better.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.03 20:44:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar I want it to be rebalanced. To make it a viable support weapon, not the main feature of ships that have no bonus for it. The gallente recons can remain as is for all I care, but the effect of 3 damps fitted on Recons, Ravens, Domis, BCs etc. needs to be nerfed. And only slightly so, -25% efficiency on unbonused ships would probably be enough to bring it in line.
If people weren't supposed to be able to fit modules on ships that have no bonuses for them, we wouldn't have the fitting system that we have now. Not to mention, we'd be complaining of how a very, very large number of ships other than Brutix, Myrmidon and Hyperion fit armor repairers.
And how much can you dampen with three dampeners without high skills and ship bonuses anyway?
Even if you're using tech 2 or best named (the best named cost something like 14 mil cause they are as good as tech 2 only with less cap use) you'd only get a total of 78% reduction of targeting range. That's for 3 mid slots used up. On battleships you'd only need 1 (on cruisers probably 2) sensor boosters to still be guaranteed to able to lock out to normal warp disruptor range. And as long as you can do that they have to get into your range or you can just warp away. ------------------
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Zubakis
Bambooule TALIONIS ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2007.08.03 21:07:00 -
[234]
People dont want dampners to be nerfed. Ok, then make so, that one sensor booster makes me completely immune to sensor dampnening. How about that? -- Zuba |
Hannobaal
Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.03 21:20:00 -
[235]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/08/2007 21:20:37
Originally by: Zubakis People dont want dampners to be nerfed. Ok, then make so, that one sensor booster makes me completely immune to sensor dampnening. How about that?
Great!
And whfle we're at it let's also make it so that 1 warp core stabilizer makes you completely immune to all warp disruption, 1 ECCM makes you completely immune to all jamming, and one armor plate or shield extender makes you completely immune to all damage. ------------------
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Zubakis
Bambooule TALIONIS ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2007.08.03 21:24:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/08/2007 21:20:37
Originally by: Zubakis People dont want dampners to be nerfed. Ok, then make so, that one sensor booster makes me completely immune to sensor dampnening. How about that?
Great!
And whfle we're at it let's also make it so that 1 warp core stabilizer makes you completely immune to all warp disruption, 1 ECCM makes you completely immune to all jamming, and one armor plate or shield extender makes you completely immune to all damage.
Well, i exaggerated a bit. But if 1 sensor booster completely negate 2-3 dampners, it would be fine. You can still damp the unprepared to hell, but not more the one who is prepared for it.
-- Zuba |
General Coochie
New Justice Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.03 22:18:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Zubakis
Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/08/2007 21:20:37
Originally by: Zubakis People dont want dampners to be nerfed. Ok, then make so, that one sensor booster makes me completely immune to sensor dampnening. How about that?
Great!
And whfle we're at it let's also make it so that 1 warp core stabilizer makes you completely immune to all warp disruption, 1 ECCM makes you completely immune to all jamming, and one armor plate or shield extender makes you completely immune to all damage.
Well, i exaggerated a bit. But if 1 sensor booster completely negate 2-3 dampners, it would be fine. You can still damp the unprepared to hell, but not more the one who is prepared for it.
I agree. A sensor booster should negate dampners, say 1 sensor booster negates 2 dampners on a non dedicated ship. Signature removed - please reduce your signature graphic height to less than 120 pixels - Jacques([email protected]) |
Fager
Thunderstruck.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 22:36:00 -
[238]
Edited by:****er on 03/08/2007 22:38:05
Originally by: Zubakis
Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 03/08/2007 21:20:37
Originally by: Zubakis People dont want dampners to be nerfed. Ok, then make so, that one sensor booster makes me completely immune to sensor dampnening. How about that?
Great!
And whfle we're at it let's also make it so that 1 warp core stabilizer makes you completely immune to all warp disruption, 1 ECCM makes you completely immune to all jamming, and one armor plate or shield extender makes you completely immune to all damage.
Well, i exaggerated a bit. But if 1 sensor booster completely negate 2-3 dampners, it would be fine. You can still damp the unprepared to hell, but not more the one who is prepared for it.
Yeah its not like Dampeners job is to totally make a ship useless. just shorten his range. Its ECMs job to totally screw the lock. I think ppl get mad over the easy time some ships have of using Damps on one ship and get a ECM effect.
Dampeners should force ship to closecombat, not unable to combat. If a ship has a booster you should require 2-3 damps to keep his lock down but 1 booster should still make you able to target over 25km to be able to fight in the closerange... heck even in close range youd still have gimp targeting time.
How about boosting sensor boosters range only. Making sure you can damp a boosted ship to closerange lvls 1-30km with a few damps and when in there youd still have the targeting speed advantage but would have to go outside scram to use it.
I mean the countermeasure should atleast give that lvl of defense.
Also Both damps and boost get a stacking penalty. This doesnt balance them!. 1ECCM protects you from all ECM put on you. 1Boost doesnt even negatate the effect of 1 Damp let alone protect you from being scramed and killed outside lock. I know there are still setups that DOESNT GET EFFECTED by having a short targeting range. But the countermeasure doesnt give a good enough protection.
I believe most ppl dont even want to see a boost to Sens booster becouse then they cant use 3-4 damps and speed to get the effect of ECM.
Ofcourse specialised ship should have a greater power in these modules and require more boosters to defend against. But these specialised ship doesnt have the Tank and Gank as many other ships still using this module VERY effectivly have.
Its a touchy subject. Killing Damps on standard ships will just be as boring as it was with ECM. However the Native countermeasure should ffs protect you atleast from the standard ships Dampeners...
Ah well, im flying some of those standard ships myself.. i rather see them abot more balanced but if not then GG me for using them on some of my missile boats (pretty much the only module making them effective heh).
all in all its kinde like stacking damps gives you the ECM effect (close to) just like stacking NOS gives you the neutralizer effect (close to)
"I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
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Reileen Kawahara
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Posted - 2007.08.03 23:01:00 -
[239]
Nerf this, nerf that...
Let's just all fly around in civilian fitted ibises, it will be balanced then.
Annoying little whiners...
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Hannobaal
Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.03 23:07:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Fager
Yeah its not like Dampeners job is to totally make a ship useless. just shorten his range.
If I'm planning on fighting someone from 20 km, why would I fit a module that simply reduces his locking range to 30?
Obviously the purpose IS to take the enemy's sensors out. Just like with ECM, only it's done in a different way. Why in the world would you fit them if you couldn't achieve that? ------------------
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