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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:21:00 -
[1]
You've read about it. People have posted about it. Ex-wow junkies have complained about it. Why isn't there a battleground style arena combat in Eve?
To which the community flames in response: "Rawr rawr rawr sandbox risk unconsensual blah." Well, its long past time to evaluate the utility of this kind of combat.
***************Arena Combat is already here on Tranquility!***************
-Ever look in the events forum? There are a mix of permanent and one-time tournaments already in place for people to PvP in. Tetra Games, Battleship Championship,
-The Alliance Championship? Enough said.
-The Eve Olympics - these kick off in what...two months? The alliances will be back to compete on a grander scale in far more events than they did in the championships. And its arena style combat.
-Profusion of 1v1 requests - how many times have you read a thread that started and ended with "Person X didn't honor our 1v1 and killed me, how lame."
*****Its GOING to happen*****
Folks, people want it. The player community is already making it happen on their own terms. People WANT to have organized PvP. Now...BEFORE you break out whining about the value of non-consensual PvP, understand this: Gankage isn't going away. Space is vast, cold, and dark. But there is no reason not to increase the methods of PvP available by letting folks get their first taste of it in a controlled environment.
In fact, they already are. Its not going to stop. While CCP sponsorship of these kind of things, and implementation of a server capability of hosting/organizing them via a simple "arena ring" would be great, the simple truth is that its already here. Players WANT it, and players are MAKING it happen.
****Why Object?*****
There is no reason to object. There is such a thing has having your cake and eating it too. That's what this is called. Scream "Omg, PvP is turning into carebear mode!!"
I beg you to evaluate it in another fashion: There are a class of players in Eve who are SO afraid of losing their pixelated assets that they get together in massive blobs in order to hunt down other players. Safety in numbers!! Such extensive risk-aversion is the true nature of the aforementioned "carebearism." These are the objectionable people to arena combat. A fair fight, or a true 1v1, or 2v2, or 5v5 is an incomprehensible thought to them. They've never flown where the odds weren't numerically superior in their favor.
Well kiddies, here's news! Your PvP isn't getting decreased because of arena. Instead, there is some additional PvP! Arena combat gives Empire types the opportunity to experience PvP without running into one of your massive blobs/gatecamps/ epeen fests. And people don't jump into lowsec / 0.0 looking for a fight before they've figured out how to fight. At least, the IQ>50 folks don't.
So, here's my advice to you.
1. Stop whining about arena combat. It exists already because players MAKE it exist.
2. CCP endorsing such a thing would simply make it more prevalent.
3. Stop whining about your inability to find targets. They're there. All you need to do is leave your carebear blob/gatecamp to find them. I'm here...come fight me.
4. Arena combat is an ADDITIONAL form of PvP, not a replacement for existing PvP.
I really can't think of any reason why people whine about "Go back to WoW" when enhancements are offered that would bring more pew-pew to Eve. Buncha whiney carebears.
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Jennai
The Silent Rage R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:23:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Curzon Dax I really can't think of any reason why people whine about "Go back to WoW" when enhancements are offered that would bring more pew-pew to Eve. Buncha whiney carebears.
cos I'd rather have them use coder time to fix the drone bugs and the overview bugs etc instead of adding unnecessary crap (walking in stations anyone?)
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Ares Lightfeather
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:26:00 -
[3]
What else to say but I agree ?
I don't understand either why adding those in addition to the current pvp mechanics would be a bad thing.
-- Siggie ! Come back here ! --
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job
Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:27:00 -
[4]
The only thing Im a bit worried about is that it would take people away from low sec and 0.0, and turn Eve into some kind of generally safe zone grinding game.
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Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:28:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jennai
Originally by: Curzon Dax I really can't think of any reason why people whine about "Go back to WoW" when enhancements are offered that would bring more pew-pew to Eve. Buncha whiney carebears.
cos I'd rather have them use coder time to fix the drone bugs and the overview bugs etc instead of adding unnecessary crap (walking in stations anyone?)
You don't understand. We ALREADY have arena combat. Players are making it happen left and right through organized and corp/alliance sponsored Events. It exists on Sisi as an arena event that doesn't require player sponsorship, it would just as easily transfer to Tranquility. Not a global implementation, but a little arena, somewhere in the middle of Empire where you could go and duke it out for kicks with someone else.
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Larg Kellein
Caldari GTE Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:28:00 -
[6]
The thing is, since players who want it already make it happen, there's really no need for CCP to do so. And regardless of not lessening the opportunity for attacking people in open space, there is the risk that the players who would normally decide to give pvp a try by heading into low/no-sec would gravitate towards this "softer" pvp. That, imo, would be against the best interest of the game's community.
Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:30:00 -
[7]
I agree with the sentiment that it's here already, but I don't think that CCP needs to implement a hard-coded arena combat system - The players are perfectly capable of managing themselves in that manner. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION | Forum Whiners - Unite! |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Larg Kellein The thing is, since players who want it already make it happen, there's really no need for CCP to do so.
If ccp were to make it a official part of the game, the popularity of those things would go through the roof. Think pvp missions with objectives - from your agent.
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Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:30:00 -
[9]
No. It will ruin the market.
Caldari and proud |
DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:31:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Curzon Dax
Originally by: Jennai
Originally by: Curzon Dax I really can't think of any reason why people whine about "Go back to WoW" when enhancements are offered that would bring more pew-pew to Eve. Buncha whiney carebears.
cos I'd rather have them use coder time to fix the drone bugs and the overview bugs etc instead of adding unnecessary crap (walking in stations anyone?)
You don't understand. We ALREADY have arena combat. Players are making it happen left and right through organized and corp/alliance sponsored Events. It exists on Sisi as an arena event that doesn't require player sponsorship, it would just as easily transfer to Tranquility. Not a global implementation, but a little arena, somewhere in the middle of Empire where you could go and duke it out for kicks with someone else.
I've been wanting this for a long time, but the PK'ers don't like the idea. They are afraid it will take targets away from them... And they can't handle fair fights, they want to gank... Less sheep for them is their fear...
My Infinity Ship Designs: T-Y9, Hauler |
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:31:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
The only thing Im a bit worried about is that it would take people away from low sec and 0.0, and turn Eve into some kind of generally safe zone grinding game.
Eve is ALREADY a safe-zone grinding game. Half the people are in highsec doing missions / mining / industry.
30% of the remaining are in 0.0 in such vast blobs that their presence is difficult to contest.
15% of the remainder are in 0.0 and are being shown that they shouldn't be.
The other 5% are in lowsec, roaming in blobs / motherships / ridiculous going "Yarrr!" and thinking that they've discovered PvP.
If people want lowsec, they'll be there. The folks who would show up for an arena fight are the kind that already don't go to lowsec, or 0.0, and already stay in Empire, and ALREADY participate in arena combat on their own terms.
CCP has given us the tools to make it happen, and so we have.
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Ares Lightfeather
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:32:00 -
[12]
To the people that say it exists already, the same could have been said of the current trade system, that evolved from the escrow...
I have to see people whine for the old escrow system to come back. Same would be true of a arena pvp system.
-- Siggie ! Come back here ! --
Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job
Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract |
Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:35:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Larg Kellein The thing is, since players who want it already make it happen, there's really no need for CCP to do so. And regardless of not lessening the opportunity for attacking people in open space, there is the risk that the players who would normally decide to give pvp a try by heading into low/no-sec would gravitate towards this "softer" pvp. That, imo, would be against the best interest of the game's community.
Like I said...
I beg you to evaluate it in another fashion: There are a class of players in Eve who are SO afraid of losing their pixelated assets that they get together in massive blobs in order to hunt down other players. Safety in numbers!! Such extensive risk-aversion is the true nature of the aforementioned "carebearism." These are the objectionable people to arena combat. A fair fight, or a true 1v1, or 2v2, or 5v5 is an incomprehensible thought to them. They've never flown where the odds weren't numerically superior in their favor.
Gankers will never leave the safety of their ganksquad / gankblob for a fair fight. That's a given. Their targets will always consist of noobies who flew out to lowsec / wherever because they didn't know better.
Take me for example:
-I've been around for a long time. -I don't go to lowsec. -When I want PvP, I get it in highsec, arena style.
How many other people are there out there just like me? I bet there's lots.
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jennai
Originally by: Curzon Dax I really can't think of any reason why people whine about "Go back to WoW" when enhancements are offered that would bring more pew-pew to Eve. Buncha whiney carebears.
cos I'd rather have them use coder time to fix the drone bugs and the overview bugs etc instead of adding unnecessary crap (walking in stations anyone?)
Well, they can use the subscription money from my 47 accounts and my 102 friends to create the unnecessary crap that is walking in stations.
And Curzon Dax ftw!!!
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DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:38:00 -
[15]
Quote: Take me for example:
-I've been around for a long time. -I don't go to lowsec. -When I want PvP, I get it in highsec, arena style.
How many other people are there out there just like me? I bet there's lots.
The problem is, there would be too many. I think that's why CCP will never do it...
It's not viewed as real PvP to the PK'er mindset (Which CCP has) Real PvP is ruining someones day when they don't expect it, that's what the EVE PK'ers & UO PK'ing CCP DEV's want...
My Infinity Ship Designs: T-Y9, Hauler |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:46:00 -
[16]
Originally by: DarkMatter
The problem is, there would be too many. I think that's why CCP will never do it...
It's not viewed as real PvP to the PK'er mindset (Which CCP has) Real PvP is ruining someones day when they don't expect it, that's what the EVE PK'ers & UO PK'ing CCP DEV's want...
Interesting how a pvp game would steer away from something that would bring more people to pvp, isnt it...
Because I believe it would become very, very popular. Maybe too popular, like you say.
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:49:00 -
[17]
I'm not a pirate, but arenas would kill piracy.
Caldari and proud |
Jennai
The Silent Rage R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:52:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: DarkMatter
The problem is, there would be too many. I think that's why CCP will never do it...
It's not viewed as real PvP to the PK'er mindset (Which CCP has) Real PvP is ruining someones day when they don't expect it, that's what the EVE PK'ers & UO PK'ing CCP DEV's want...
Interesting how a pvp game would steer away from something that would bring more people to pvp, isnt it...
Because I believe it would become very, very popular. Maybe too popular, like you say.
if you had to use an actual ship and it would die for real, empire carebears wouldn't use it for the same reasons they don't join pvp corps or move to 0.0.
if it was a "holographic simulation" or whatever and you didn't lose anything, either no one would use it because it's completely pointless, or the market would go to hell because all the mission runners would rather pretend to pvp than do missions.
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DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Death Kill I'm not a pirate, but arenas would kill piracy.
It would kill ganking, not piracy.
The real pirates who fly around would still be doing ok, making a profit. As the players currently in low sec would still need to go there for the same resources.
In fact, if you have more Carebears getting used to PvP in arenas, more of them might go to low sec for resource acquisition thinking they are better able to handle themselves...
My Infinity Ship Designs: T-Y9, Hauler |
Jennai
The Silent Rage R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: DarkMatter In fact, if you have more Carebears getting used to PvP in arenas, more of them might go to low sec for resource acquisition thinking they are better able to handle themselves...
why risk a real ship when they can just sit in the arena all day and pretend they have skills?
actually if the arena charged an entrance fee that'd be a pretty awesome isk sink and would keep it from screwing up empire dynamics
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DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jennai
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: DarkMatter
The problem is, there would be too many. I think that's why CCP will never do it...
It's not viewed as real PvP to the PK'er mindset (Which CCP has) Real PvP is ruining someones day when they don't expect it, that's what the EVE PK'ers & UO PK'ing CCP DEV's want...
Interesting how a pvp game would steer away from something that would bring more people to pvp, isnt it...
Because I believe it would become very, very popular. Maybe too popular, like you say.
if you had to use an actual ship and it would die for real, empire carebears wouldn't use it for the same reasons they don't join pvp corps or move to 0.0.
if it was a "holographic simulation" or whatever and you didn't lose anything, either no one would use it because it's completely pointless, or the market would go to hell because all the mission runners would rather pretend to pvp than do missions.
I actually don't believe that.
Dying in a fair fight is more appealing to everyone (Including carebears) than getting ganked in a few seconds by a blob...
I'm sick of 0.0 PvP. I'd love arenas...
My Infinity Ship Designs: T-Y9, Hauler |
DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:57:00 -
[22]
Edited by: DarkMatter on 03/08/2007 14:57:25
Originally by: Jennai
Originally by: DarkMatter In fact, if you have more Carebears getting used to PvP in arenas, more of them might go to low sec for resource acquisition thinking they are better able to handle themselves...
why risk a real ship when they can just sit in the arena all day and pretend they have skills?
actually if the arena charged an entrance fee that'd be a pretty awesome isk sink and would keep it from screwing up empire dynamics
No one ever said it would be fake ships (nor should it be), at least I never said that.
You could lose everything except your clone... You could even have ones where you could pod kill...
My Infinity Ship Designs: T-Y9, Hauler |
Blacktail
Caldari Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.08.03 15:00:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Blacktail on 03/08/2007 15:00:38 That was a pretty terrible read, man. For deciding that this merited a 6TH thread, you didn't add much to the discussion other than a few exclamation points.
It WILL give people less incentive to go to low and zero security. You didn't even give a basis to claim otherwise, you just refuted that without a backup.
Saying that "players are making arena combat happen left and right" is a vast overexaggeration of the truth.
"3. Stop whining about your inability to find targets. They're there. All you need to do is leave your carebear blob/gatecamp to find them. I'm here...come fight me." -It's widely accepted that low and zero security need to be populated more. I don't even understand your argument against that.
"4. Arena combat is an ADDITIONAL form of PvP, not a replacement for existing PvP." -So says you, eh? It must be true then.
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.03 15:00:00 -
[24]
Edited by: cal nereus on 03/08/2007 15:00:22 If you can implement arena-style PvP without taking away from the existing PvP system at all... ya, I'd get behind that.
Problem is, I don't think it can be done successfully. ---
Grismar.net |
Jennai
The Silent Rage R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.03 15:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: DarkMatter No one ever said it would be fake ships (nor should it be), at least I never said that.
You could lose everything except your clone... You could even have ones where you could pod kill...
in that case it would be an unused waste of time, because the potential audience (empire dwellers) would either refuse to participate because it would involve them losing ships, or they'd go in with some godawful setup like this and cry on the forums after they get owned by a pirate's month-old empire alt in a tech 1 cruiser.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.03 15:03:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/08/2007 15:04:38
Originally by: Jennai
if you had to use an actual ship and it would die for real, empire carebears wouldn't use it for the same reasons they don't join pvp corps or move to 0.0.
I think they would. I think a lot of players dont do the 0.0 pvp thing because they know its going to be hours to find a fight, and then more hours trying to decide if they can win it. Or maybe they jump in and die in seconds.
The difference to a arena fight is that they would know how many they are facing, and perhaps also what ships they fly. Also it would be a lot easier for the casual player to fit up a ship and try to complete some objectives in a couple of hours of playing.
Missions are very popular simply because they are easy to do in a couple of hours, and have decent rewards. If you could do pvp missions, the rewards and risks would be greater, and it would still just take a couple of hours.
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Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 15:06:00 -
[27]
Don't get me wrong. In all the current player-driven arenas, you die. You don't get podded, but your ship gets blown up. Or, you get ransomed out.
Its not a safe way to prevent ship loss to experience PvP.
THE ONLY WAY to play safe and prevent ship loss during PvP is to fly in massive blobs, or camp a gate, and outnumber your opponent on a massive scale.
That's what gankers currently do. I have no sympathy for them...they bring nothing to Eve. There are a LOT of people who don't mind losing ships, including me - but when I lose a ship, I want it to be because I got ungunned, out-thought, and outmaneuvered, not because there were 50 of them against me.
BLobbing someone is not really PvP, nor is gatecamping; that's called Easymode ganking.
The REST of us WANT PvP. Not BvP (Blob vs Player). Its true - there's a lot of gankers out there who are terrified of losing a ship and will (and are) freaking out at the idea of arena combat, because they can't vastly outnumber their opponent, get a kill mail, and wag their epeen about how awesome they are at PvP.
Tough nuts fellas. Grow some. There are far MORE people, empire and 0.0 alike, who want a chance to get some pew-pew on an even-keel. We're MAKING it happen.
It would be even cooler if CCP would help make it happen.
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Zombie Network
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Posted - 2007.08.03 15:07:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Zombie Network on 03/08/2007 15:07:49 Edited by: Zombie Network on 03/08/2007 15:07:05
Originally by: Curzon Dax ***************Arena Combat is already here on Tranquility!***************
Originally by: Curzon Dax Folks, people want it. The player community is already making it happen on their own terms. People WANT to have organized PvP.
Originally by: Curzon Dax Players WANT it, and players are MAKING it happen.
Originally by: Curzon Dax 1. Stop whining about arena combat. It exists already because players MAKE it exist.
Originally by: Curzon Dax We ALREADY have arena combat. Players are making it happen left and right through organized and corp/alliance sponsored Events.
Originally by: Curzon Dax We ALREADY have arena combat. Players are making it happen left and right through organized and corp/alliance sponsored Events.
I don't quite get the point of this thread. It starts off complaining that we don't have arena combat, and then goes to great lengths to explain how we do.
The beauty of a sandbox game is that if the players want to do something, then they can go out and do it. People want arena combat, and they have gone out and organised arena combat events.
You want area combat, you have already got arena combat. Nothing more needs to be said really.
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Blacktail
Caldari Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.08.03 15:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/08/2007 15:04:38
Originally by: Jennai
if you had to use an actual ship and it would die for real, empire carebears wouldn't use it for the same reasons they don't join pvp corps or move to 0.0.
I think they would. I think a lot of players dont do the 0.0 pvp thing because they know its going to be hours to find a fight, and then more hours trying to decide if they can win it. Or maybe they jump in and die in seconds.
The difference to a arena fight is that they would know how many they are facing, and perhaps also what ships they fly. Also it would be a lot easier for the casual player to fit up a ship and try to complete some objectives in a couple of hours of playing.
Missions are very popular simply because they are easy to do in a couple of hours, and have decent rewards. If you could do pvp missions, the rewards and risks would be greater, and it would still just take a couple of hours.
So then what's the incentive for them to ever come to low or zero sec, eh? They can get their pvp kicks elsewhere, in a safe, stagnant combat arena.
It wouldn't take hours to find a fight if there were better incentives to enter low-sec that drew more PVE'ers into the fray. THAT's the way to improve combat in EVE. Not arenas.
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DarkMatter
Sintered Sanity
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Posted - 2007.08.03 15:08:00 -
[30]
It would simply work too good.
you could log on, knowing you have a fight, participate in your fight, and then go back to RL.
You would have many players from all sec zones fleeing to this form of convenient, e-peen showcasing, audience watched PvP...
CCP is afraid it would attract too many players, and not leave enough out in 0.0 to build empires...
Hell, it would get me to log back in and play this game...
I won't play it unless I can PvP, and I won't PvP if I have to wait hours on end to engage in a lagfest. Hence, I no longer play... There are 1000's of players in this same situation who would use the arenas...
My Infinity Ship Designs: T-Y9, Hauler |
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