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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.05 13:33:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 05/08/2007 13:36:14
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/08/2007 03:28:47 Let's say we have a fleet battle. A few hundred ships on each side line up to slam megabeams and 1400mm artillery into each other.
Suddenly everything starts lagging massively.
1. What's happening? Is the server's CPU maxed out? If yes, go on, otherwise explain what the bottleneck is.
2. What, roughly, percentage-wise, is the CPU used for?
a) Collision detection? Do the two groups of 300 ships sitting on top of each other like a useless garbage pile cause the server's collision detection to overload and waste tons of CPU power?
b) Calculating data to send to each client? Each of the 600 ships needs updates on the other 599 ships, resulting in four times as many updates as if it was a battle of half the size. Is this the main source of CPU usage?
c) Something else?
It would be nice to have an idea of exactly what is using all the servers' power during a massive fleet battle.
a (5%) + b (1%) +database access (the rest) -=-=-
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.08.05 14:25:00 -
[32]
Originally by: SonOTassadar
Originally by: Dark Shikari b) Calculating data to send to each client? Each of the 600 ships needs updates on the other 599 ships, resulting in four times as many updates as if it was a battle of half the size. Is this the main source of CPU usage?
This is where the bandwidth bottleneck would be, and I suspect it's also one of the culprits to CPU power being used up.
now add ~5 drones for each character - putting the gist back into logistics |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.05 14:28:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/08/2007 14:28:53
Originally by: w0rmy
Originally by: Dark Shikari 2. What, roughly, percentage-wise, is the CPU used for?
c) Something else?
Keeping the client in Sync
Obviously its not enough CPU then, is it?
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: SonOTassadar
Originally by: Dark Shikari b) Calculating data to send to each client? Each of the 600 ships needs updates on the other 599 ships, resulting in four times as many updates as if it was a battle of half the size. Is this the main source of CPU usage?
This is where the bandwidth bottleneck would be, and I suspect it's also one of the culprits to CPU power being used up.
now add ~5 drones for each character
Actually that's a thought; does AI (drones, fighters, POS guns) use up a considerable amount of the CPU?
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Xoria Krint
5th Avenue
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Posted - 2007.08.05 16:34:00 -
[34]
I want a dev answer. Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie Now Recruiting - Forums[/RIGHT]
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jamesw
Omniscient Order Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.08.05 17:01:00 -
[35]
Don't be silly... the servers don't have CPU's, they have Hamsters! --
Latest Vid: Domination! |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.05 17:14:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Xoria Krint I want a dev answer.
QFT.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
tiewan
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Posted - 2007.08.05 17:19:00 -
[37]
Everyone knows you can not have battles this large.
It does not work.
It probably will not work for quite some time as hardware does not exist that can handle it.
Stop trying, and stop complaining when something you know does not work ends up not working when you try it.
Have smaller battles.
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Kenneys
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.05 17:24:00 -
[38]
I would go with b).
And then i would add that the additional cpus brought into to help out with the processing, runs into synch'ing and timing scheduling issues due to the sheer volume as the processing time increases exponentially. (As someone pointed out earlier, 600x600 versus 100x100 updates).
The only way to fix this (unless you have a quantum computer), is to change the algorithm.
For example: Create a completely new mechanic for fleet battles. No more 600 solo independent brains.. calculate them as two huge entities.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.05 18:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/08/2007 03:28:47 Let's say we have a fleet battle. A few hundred ships on each side line up to slam megabeams and 1400mm artillery into each other.
Suddenly everything starts lagging massively.
1. What's happening? Is the server's CPU maxed out? If yes, go on, otherwise explain what the bottleneck is.
2. What, roughly, percentage-wise, is the CPU used for?
a) Collision detection? Do the two groups of 300 ships sitting on top of each other like a useless garbage pile cause the server's collision detection to overload and waste tons of CPU power?
b) Calculating data to send to each client? Each of the 600 ships needs updates on the other 599 ships, resulting in four times as many updates as if it was a battle of half the size. Is this the main source of CPU usage?
c) Something else?
It would be nice to have an idea of exactly what is using all the servers' power during a massive fleet battle.
python garbage collection hits in... :P
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
jarack
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.08.05 18:12:00 -
[40]
Or CCP is it
D) These are not the droids you are looking for
Celestial Apocalypse Recruitment |
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Righteous Fury
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.05 18:27:00 -
[41]
A *considerable* amount of client-side lag could be removed if the UI was converted to a 2D setup, especially for the overview. You know there's something wrong when closing the overview gives you a 50% increase in FPS.
Some of the shader effects might look pretty sure, but its really just not practical.
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.08.05 19:16:00 -
[42]
CCP could reduce lag easily with a few changes, but they seem to think it isn't a problem ... (perhaps they're playing some other game :-P):
- "fleet mode" for the client: remove all the transparent crap, the blinking, the textures for planets and ships, the bubble effects (as much as possible - e.g. convert dictor bubbles to dotted lines)
- "fleet mode" for the systems: no effects at all sent between server and clients (turret effects etc.). No bookmark copying possible. Local only shows cumulative numbers per standings icon and no separate player icons. Kicks in at 200 people in a system or so. Optionally shut down the market at 400 people in a system (Jita fix, eh?).
- convert the lag-creating active modules to passive (if the cap use is a necessary penalty, convert it to cap amount reduction like MWDs): gang modules, drone control units etc.
this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.05 19:26:00 -
[43]
I ran some bandwidth monitoring to test my theory.
I first went to Avesber planet V, just sat there by my lonesome and chatting with corpies. I recorded 2766 outbound bytes and 6816 inbound bytes over a 5 minute period.
Next, I went to Rens VI Moon 8 station, orbited it at 18km and hit my burners. There were 14ish people outside the station on average, and no combat ensued. I recorded 55.4k out and 203.4k in while orbiting the station over five minutes.
Then, I went to Frarn to do Angel Extravaganza lvl 4. Not a great deal of enemies on screen. Average was 5 enemies, and I brought 5 drones (damn Angel Vipers popped 'em when I wasnt looking...). Killed off the first room, got impatient, then warped back to station. I recorded 122.7kb out and 557k in from the time I activated the deadspace gate to the time I ordered the warp out. 16.5 min.
Finally I went to Abudban to do a REAL mission. Spy Stash lvl 3. I found myself facing against 4 guard towers and 15ish enemies... But I had no drones. Finished the mish, recorded 105k out and 557k in over 12 minutes flat from the time I activated the deadspace gate to the time I ordered the warpout.
So... Idle over 5 min: 2766 (9.22 avg) out; 6816 (22.72 avg) in Orbiting station over 5 min: 55467 (184.89 avg) out; 203452(678.17 avg) in Missioning over 16.5 min: 122793 (124 avg) out;766912 (774.66 avg) in Missioning over 12 min: 105348 (146.32 avg) out, 557101 (773.75 avg) in
So if my mish was vs 15 real people, the server would be taking 2.19kbps and pushing 11.5kbps... That doesnt sound like that much, really...
____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.05 19:41:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Allen Ramses I ran some bandwidth monitoring to test my theory.
I first went to Avesber planet V, just sat there by my lonesome and chatting with corpies. I recorded 2766 outbound bytes and 6816 inbound bytes over a 5 minute period.
Next, I went to Rens VI Moon 8 station, orbited it at 18km and hit my burners. There were 14ish people outside the station on average, and no combat ensued. I recorded 55.4k out and 203.4k in while orbiting the station over five minutes.
Then, I went to Frarn to do Angel Extravaganza lvl 4. Not a great deal of enemies on screen. Average was 5 enemies, and I brought 5 drones (damn Angel Vipers popped 'em when I wasnt looking...). Killed off the first room, got impatient, then warped back to station. I recorded 122.7kb out and 557k in from the time I activated the deadspace gate to the time I ordered the warp out. 16.5 min.
Finally I went to Abudban to do a REAL mission. Spy Stash lvl 3. I found myself facing against 4 guard towers and 15ish enemies... But I had no drones. Finished the mish, recorded 105k out and 557k in over 12 minutes flat from the time I activated the deadspace gate to the time I ordered the warpout.
So... Idle over 5 min: 2766 (9.22 avg) out; 6816 (22.72 avg) in Orbiting station over 5 min: 55467 (184.89 avg) out; 203452(678.17 avg) in Missioning over 16.5 min: 122793 (124 avg) out;766912 (774.66 avg) in Missioning over 12 min: 105348 (146.32 avg) out, 557101 (773.75 avg) in
So if my mish was vs 15 real people, the server would be taking 2.19kbps and pushing 11.5kbps... That doesnt sound like that much, really...
ok dude you 6816 receive byte in 5 min. thats 23 byte a second incoming traffic from the server. now you have 100 people in the system. each of them receives at least those 23 bytes a second. if tehy are all on teh same grid the sever has to send each other of those 99 people your and the others position. lets assume thats exactely those 23 bytes (probably much more) thats allready 4.92285 MegaByte a second outgoing traffic. Now immagine there would be 500 people on teh same grid... Ok i adfmit i dont have a clue about server stuff.. im sure you can send out packets m/s delayed etc.. but imho that seems much allready no?:) please lemme know how it works really:)
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Drykor
Minmatar Warriors of the Einherjar Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.08.05 19:46:00 -
[45]
Too many replies in this thread show why Dark Shakiri wanted a CCP reply and not replies from people who lack basic knowledge in network/server architecture as well as network software design.
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Drykor
Minmatar Warriors of the Einherjar Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.08.05 19:56:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Pan Crastus CCP could reduce lag easily with a few changes, but they seem to think it isn't a problem ... (perhaps they're playing some other game :-P):
- "fleet mode" for the client: remove all the transparent crap, the blinking, the textures for planets and ships, the bubble effects (as much as possible - e.g. convert dictor bubbles to dotted lines)
Like you said, would only remove client lag, not server.
Originally by: Pan Crastus
- "fleet mode" for the systems: no effects at all sent between server and clients (turret effects etc.). No bookmark copying possible. Local only shows cumulative numbers per standings icon and no separate player icons. Kicks in at 200 people in a system or so. Optionally shut down the market at 400 people in a system (Jita fix, eh?).
Not really. Effects aren't sent, the client calculates them with server data. The client would generally hold data about how turrets move, all the server does (or should do) is sent some basic information about a turret firing at some other ship. Graphical details like turret movement will be client side. Bookmark copying, unless done on purpose, shouldn't have any significant effect on lag. Local only showing grouped standings icons would only reduce client lag, if at all, since everyone would still have to receive important data, regardless of whether their names are showing. Market shutdown.. not sure if this is handled on the same server, but generally it won't have a significant impact in 0.0 systems anyway.
Originally by: Pan Crastus
- convert the lag-creating active modules to passive (if the cap use is a necessary penalty, convert it to cap amount reduction like MWDs): gang modules, drone control units etc.
Might remove some minor lag, but this isn't the kind of data that is sent to everyone else as well, so it's not that important.
The real issue is the fight itself I'd say. But if CCP could tell us, that would be nice to know, even though it doesn't change anything.
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.08.05 20:36:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Frug on 05/08/2007 20:37:03
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Actually that's a thought; does AI (drones, fighters, POS guns) use up a considerable amount of the CPU?
I think it has to be something like this, or the fact that it's got to get the packets to all 800 clients. I don't know how many operations a second their stuff does or whatever, but I know that:
"...position and heading of both ships to determine transversal and distance, you need to load wepon stats, modify by pilot skills and other ship fitings, adjust for enemy or friendly remote effects. Oh, and of course, when it hits, you have to calculate the actual damage dealt, so you have to calc target ship's resists, which are again a function of ship fiting, player skill and remote friendly effects. And so on and so forth." blah blah blah
is not very much.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Edmund Khan
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.05 20:44:00 -
[48]
This seems to be a suitable thread for this. Was wondering about it a lot lately.
Killmails.
Imagine a 300 player fleet battle. 150 kills. Each killmail has 50 people participating. The dmg for each of the shooter is noted, summed up and when the target pops, sorted and the killmail then contains only the top shooters.
Thats 50 ships, with 6 guns each (+ some other mods), 300 dmg shots that need to be noted, and if the target doesn't pop in one go, theres another 300 rounds of it, and maybe even more. After that, you need to sum them up, order them. Ok, this is not much you say, a computer can do that very fast. 150 * 600 = 90.000 shots. 150 killmails that need to sum up the dmg of 50 shooters, thats 150 * 50 = 7.500 sums. And don't forget the 150 "order by dmg". Ok i know this is highly theoretical, cause i don't know the exact procedure on how they do it. But it seems a fine example of useless features, which 80% of the players don't even notice.
And all this just for a cut off killmail, where half the people is missing and just to see who made the most dmg, and the dmg isn't even included it that list? I'd say everybody would be happier about actually being on a killmail, even if you can't see who got the most dmg.
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Dr Slaughter
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.05 20:54:00 -
[49]
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Allen Ramses I ran some bandwidth monitoring to test my theory.
I first went to Avesber planet V, just sat there by my lonesome and chatting with corpies. I recorded 2766 outbound bytes and 6816 inbound bytes over a 5 minute period.
Next, I went to Rens VI Moon 8 station, orbited it at 18km and hit my burners. There were 14ish people outside the station on average, and no combat ensued. I recorded 55.4k out and 203.4k in while orbiting the station over five minutes.
Then, I went to Frarn to do Angel Extravaganza lvl 4. Not a great deal of enemies on screen. Average was 5 enemies, and I brought 5 drones (damn Angel Vipers popped 'em when I wasnt looking...). Killed off the first room, got impatient, then warped back to station. I recorded 122.7kb out and 557k in from the time I activated the deadspace gate to the time I ordered the warp out. 16.5 min.
Finally I went to Abudban to do a REAL mission. Spy Stash lvl 3. I found myself facing against 4 guard towers and 15ish enemies... But I had no drones. Finished the mish, recorded 105k out and 557k in over 12 minutes flat from the time I activated the deadspace gate to the time I ordered the warpout.
So... Idle over 5 min: 2766 (9.22 avg) out; 6816 (22.72 avg) in Orbiting station over 5 min: 55467 (184.89 avg) out; 203452(678.17 avg) in Missioning over 16.5 min: 122793 (124 avg) out;766912 (774.66 avg) in Missioning over 12 min: 105348 (146.32 avg) out, 557101 (773.75 avg) in
So if my mish was vs 15 real people, the server would be taking 2.19kbps and pushing 11.5kbps... That doesnt sound like that much, really...
ok dude you 6816 receive byte in 5 min. thats 23 byte a second incoming traffic from the server. now you have 100 people in the system. each of them receives at least those 23 bytes a second. if tehy are all on teh same grid the sever has to send each other of those 99 people your and the others position. lets assume thats exactely those 23 bytes (probably much more) thats allready 4.92285 MegaByte a second outgoing traffic. Now immagine there would be 500 people on teh same grid... Ok i adfmit i dont have a clue about server stuff.. im sure you can send out packets m/s delayed etc.. but imho that seems much allready no?:) please lemme know how it works really:)
Errr.. sorry to point this out but we connect to proxy servers which are set-up to take a limited number of clients. In other words you would expect the proxies not to allow enough clients on them to fully saturate their network connection. If each proxy has two 1Gbit connections (1 to the outside, and 1 to the database server and SOL nodes), they should easily be able to saturate both NICs and have plenty of CPU free.
If it's the solar system nodes that are being over-run by the proxies and it's not CPU load then they need to upgrade their network which I think we can assume they would do.
Out of interest does anyone have a write up on what the proxies actually do? Do they do data normalization, some calculations and look-ups, before making requests to the solar system nodes? Any chance of using infiniband to connect the proxies to the SOL nodes? When will individual grids be able to be distributed across CPUs?
Originally by: fire 59 Arguing with stupid people is like trying to bite your own elbow.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.08.05 20:59:00 -
[50]
I'd dare venture a guess on the map draining resources, kill the map and see.
Also Known As |
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wierchas n00bhunter
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Posted - 2007.08.05 21:07:00 -
[51]
i would say b... but why do we have huge lag now ? some time before u would get less lag in bigger batles ...
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.08.05 21:27:00 -
[52]
I dont think its that the drone AI uses alot of CPU perse to control its just the added burden of all the extra position updates.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.08.05 21:38:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Actually that's a thought; does AI (drones, fighters, POS guns) use up a considerable amount of the CPU?
Remember back when number of drones a ship could use was reduced from 15 for a dominix to 5 with a bonus? That was meant to be a temporary stopgap measure while they corrected the problem, there was even talk of making drones visually appear to be multiple drones.
I've suggested this many times but why not let the drones actually be a single object? You make groups inside your bay of up to the maximum number of drones you can launch and you launch these groups. They are treated as one entity for attack and AI purposes and they share shields among the entire group, allowing remote shield boosting of drones to be a real and effective task and removing a lot of objects from the game. The client sees each drone individually as it is now but when you target them, the target acquired is "drone cloud" or "drone cluster".
It'd all be done transparently to how it appears on the client currently but would improve gameplay and reduce lag significantly. It would also allow the moros to launch 35 drones again! It's mostly just a visual effect and would need some drone UI work but it'd be great if done correctly. Knowing CCP, though, they'd implement this idea on the cheap by reducing drones to one physical object on the client, which would mess up targetting and would not be transparent to the client.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Leneerra
Minmatar Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.05 22:04:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Dark Shikari I've suggested this many times but why not let the drones actually be a single object? You make groups inside your bay of up to the maximum number of drones you can launch and you launch these groups. They are treated as one entity for attack and AI purposes and they share shields among the entire group, allowing remote shield boosting of drones to be a real and effective task and removing a lot of objects from the game. The client sees each drone individually as it is now but when you target them, the target acquired is "drone cloud" or "drone cluster".
It'd all be done transparently to how it appears on the client currently but would improve gameplay and reduce lag significantly. It would also allow the moros to launch 35 drones again! It's mostly just a visual effect and would need some drone UI work but it'd be great if done correctly. Knowing CCP, though, they'd implement this idea on the cheap by reducing drones to one physical object on the client, which would mess up targetting and would not be transparent to the client.
Then what drone do you lock? as they are only 1 object for the server. Wich drone is the first to die? No more scoop and launch for a single drone to replenish shields?
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Dr Slaughter
Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.06 08:30:00 -
[55]
Gotta say, it made me laugh when they nixed the drones and added fighters. Yeah I know there are potentially less fighters than there would have been drones but when you get multiple carriers engaged I can't help but think lowering the number of drones we can use was totally pointless.
Like the drone cloud idea though and the answer to 'which drone gets killed first' should surely be a random one each time
Originally by: fire 59 Arguing with stupid people is like trying to bite your own elbow.
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Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.06 12:30:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
It would be nice to have an idea of exactly what is using all the servers' power during a massive fleet battle.
I guess its mostly B)
Rumor has it CCP is working on fixing this by proving that P = NP. --
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.08.06 12:41:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Nyphur on 06/08/2007 12:43:25
Originally by: Leneerra Then what drone do you lock? as they are only 1 object for the server. Wich drone is the first to die? No more scoop and launch for a single drone to replenish shields?
They would share a shield hitpoint pool and travel as one group, so yeah no more scooping a single drone to replenish shields but remote repairing would be easier. And when they were into structure, one random drone would pop for every 1/Xth of hull HP lost, where X is how many drones you had out. And if you lost a drone, perhaps you could be able to launch a new one and it would simply fly out and meet the group with its mwd really quick.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.06 13:09:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn
Originally by: Dark Shikari
It would be nice to have an idea of exactly what is using all the servers' power during a massive fleet battle.
I guess its mostly B)
Rumor has it CCP is working on fixing this by proving that P = NP.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.06 14:39:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Ifni
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Xoria Krint I want a dev answer.
QFT.
I want infinite amounts of money ingame. It doesn't mean it's going to happen.
This is EVE, not Star Wars Galaxies, I think you've confused them.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Zeveron
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.06 14:43:00 -
[60]
CCP clarify pls.
The solution to minimize the lag is to reduce the calculations need to be done by the server. Some examples here:
Reduce rate of fire but increase damage output (dps stays the same).
Reduce number of drones/fighters even more, 1-2 should be enough if they have the same abilities and more hps. Another solution here is use drone as a normal weapon with a delay. Ie, a domi activates its drones. The drones appear over the target after and start damaging it. Make the drones not killable, not targetable not cruising arround.
I dont wana see missiles cruising through space in a 200 vs 600 fleetbatle.
There are some more ideas but you have to clarify what the problem is. Sitting at a pos and having module lag of 10-15 mins bcs 400 ppl shooting at a pos its rediculus
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