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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.05 18:55:00 -
[1]
...is anyone trading in the Citadel?
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.08.05 18:57:00 -
[2]
I considered it today. Doesn't seem to be one particular hub though.
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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.05 19:04:00 -
[3]
Well, hubs don't really matter for what I'm doing. I've been working on refining my own style of trading and I just moved in to the Citadel to test some of my adjustments.
I have to move in to new territories to get "good look" at cause and effect.
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LaVista Vista
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.08.05 19:27:00 -
[4]
I have considered numerous times. But sadly it seems to me that due to the short distance between the citadel and Jita, people favor to travel to Jita.
The Sivala-Uedema systems seem to be popular systems, but my logic tells me that the area around Motsu might have bigger sales.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.08.05 22:19:00 -
[5]
I was trading there a while back... but it turned into bot-city. About 3 people seemed to update orders way too frequently. Even before they were there tho the volume of trade was rather low. There are like 7-8 mini hubs... none of which fully stock everything. Motsu used to be 5-6 hops from Jita I thought, but now it is 3.... so it seems most people just go to Jita.
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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 00:00:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Shadarle I was trading there a while back... but it turned into bot-city. About 3 people seemed to update orders way too frequently. Even before they were there tho the volume of trade was rather low. There are like 7-8 mini hubs... none of which fully stock everything. Motsu used to be 5-6 hops from Jita I thought, but now it is 3.... so it seems most people just go to Jita.
Heh...I noticed some quick updates. Should be fun.
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Hanoi Hana
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Posted - 2007.08.06 01:34:00 -
[7]
Uhh, you said it should be fun playing against botters? It's anything but fun. It sucks any fun out of market playing. Knowing you're screwing over another real human's sales feels different than competing with a computer program that updates within five minutes.
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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 01:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hanoi Hana Uhh, you said it should be fun playing against botters? It's anything but fun. It sucks any fun out of market playing. Knowing you're screwing over another real human's sales feels different than competing with a computer program that updates within five minutes.
The bot is updating orders, the bot behaves according to directions by the human. Yes, it's a proxy, but ultimately your true opponent (the puppet master) is a human.
That said, bots can be fun to play against...I'm still enjoying myself so far. If need be, I'm prepared to destroy profit margins across the entire region for the items I trade in for a month or two.
There are dangers with what I do, the first line of defense are "hedges", a certain method I use to hedge my orders so that I'm not knocked out by someone dumping excess or surplus inventory at a price premium. This is one of my favorite strategies to exploit, so I make sure that other traders have a hard time executing my own strategy against me. Consequently, I've had to train up quite a few order slots.
Typically, you want to force your competitors out of the region you trade in. Part of my strategy is to not only make them want to leave, but to make it as painful as possible for them to leave.
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.08.06 01:58:00 -
[9]
What have you done with Hexxx you bastard!
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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 02:07:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ricdic What have you done with Hexxx you bastard!
Heh.
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Cherybol
Caldari Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.08.06 03:38:00 -
[11]
The Citadel is my main trading region. Oh noes now I have some competition.
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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 03:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Cherybol The Citadel is my main trading region. Oh noes now I have some competition.
Now all I have to do is find out:
a) What items are you trading (you may not actually be competing with me) b) What your "tag" is.
I've identified two seperate "tags" so far...don't know the person(s) behind them are yet, saving that for tomorrow.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.08.06 04:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shadarle I was trading there a while back... but it turned into bot-city. About 3 people seemed to update orders way too frequently.
when selling product, I've taken to setting my initial orders 5% above the lowest sell order, then waiting for time to pass and adjusting it to my REAL offer.
It's amazing how many sell orders *magically* adjust to the 5% higher sell order, but 0.01 isk less.
(yes, shameless plug, but another reason why I'd love fee reapplications when modifying orders, it'd put macro-runners out of business)
Been thinking of looking into other hubs, unfortunately dont have the skillbase to do it atm. Improve Market Competition! |
Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 04:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Originally by: Shadarle I was trading there a while back... but it turned into bot-city. About 3 people seemed to update orders way too frequently.
when selling product, I've taken to setting my initial orders 5% above the lowest sell order, then waiting for time to pass and adjusting it to my REAL offer.
It's amazing how many sell orders *magically* adjust to the 5% higher sell order, but 0.01 isk less.
(yes, shameless plug, but another reason why I'd love fee reapplications when modifying orders, it'd put macro-runners out of business)
Been thinking of looking into other hubs, unfortunately dont have the skillbase to do it atm.
not sure what you mean when you say you wait to make your real offer later. Why wait?
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.08.06 05:22:00 -
[15]
The change catches out the macros. Not sure what sort of cycle checking they have, but it seems to sort out people using bots to change bids. To give you an example,
Someone had an item at 13500 isk, only about 200 units. I had 20000 to sell, and with the nearest seller at 14000+ i sat my bid at 13700, knowing I didnt *have* to underbid the 13500 coz there's enough volume movement.
Checking back a little later, the guy with the 13500 was still there, but below me were three sell orders, two for 13699.99, one for 13699.97.
I then changed my sell to 13499, and some of my product sold. About an hour or two later, there were three listings below me again,, two for 13498.99, and one for 13498.98 Improve Market Competition! |
Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 05:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/08/2007 05:27:03 The change catches out the macros. Not sure what sort of cycle checking they have, but it seems to sort out people using bots to change bids. To give you an example,
Someone had an item at 13500 isk, only about 200 units. I had 20000 to sell, and with the nearest seller at 14000+ i sat my bid at 13700, knowing I didnt *have* to underbid the 13500 coz there's enough volume movement.
Checking back a little later, the guy with the 13500 was still there, but below me were three sell orders, two for 13699.99, one for 13699.97.
I then changed my sell to 13499, and some of my product sold. About an hour or two later, there were three listings below me again,, two for 13498.99, and one for 13498.98
The next day, I'd of course been underbid by more erratic amounts (human, of course),, but by this time I'd taken note of the quantities being moved by the underbids that happened to me the day before. I noticed that some sell orders had been underbid in exactly the same way i had, with similar quantities (obviously, they'd had sales too)
Have you observed this with both centralized (hub specific) trading and de-centralized (non-hub/region wide) trading? Interesting stuff.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.08.06 05:35:00 -
[17]
I think I'll check out the citadel again, still have a few orders there anyhow... might as well update stuff and see what is going on. See if I can figure out what you're up to.
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Idrift
Caldari Saltavarian Shadow Knights
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Posted - 2007.08.06 05:39:00 -
[18]
I trade in two regions, one of them Citadel, and I have attended your beginner workshop.
While I have to admit I have grown lax in updating my orders I am at least consistant in that I have fallen behind in both regions.
If you have just recently started buying in the region then I might have a good idea who you are. That said, I ain't leaving. I've made enough money over the past 5-6 months and gotten into enough market pvp that I consider Citadel home. Besides, I mainly buy not sell.
I have to agree with the previous posting about selling being tough in Citadel. Both of the main activity areas are only a few jumps from Jita so it's tough setting up a 'sell' hub. Maybe if I work up enough capital I'll try again sometime in the future but my first attempt selling weapons was painfully slow.
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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 05:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Shadarle I think I'll check out the citadel again, still have a few orders there anyhow... might as well update stuff and see what is going on. See if I can figure out what you're up to.
Awesome!
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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 05:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Idrift I trade in two regions, one of them Citadel, and I have attended your beginner workshop.
While I have to admit I have grown lax in updating my orders I am at least consistant in that I have fallen behind in both regions.
If you have just recently started buying in the region then I might have a good idea who you are. That said, I ain't leaving. I've made enough money over the past 5-6 months and gotten into enough market pvp that I consider Citadel home. Besides, I mainly buy not sell.
I have to agree with the previous posting about selling being tough in Citadel. Both of the main activity areas are only a few jumps from Jita so it's tough setting up a 'sell' hub. Maybe if I work up enough capital I'll try again sometime in the future but my first attempt selling weapons was painfully slow.
I'm delighted to hear that you are a previous student, and of course, my congratulations on your trading successes!
I understand how easy it is to neglect orders. I'm a very busy guy (in RL) and since I can only log in for short periods of time, my orders don't always get the tender care they deserve. This has shaped my methodology for the large part.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.08.06 07:23:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Shadarle I think I'll check out the citadel again, still have a few orders there anyhow... might as well update stuff and see what is going on. See if I can figure out what you're up to.
Awesome!
It's amazing how big the market is. All of my favorite items seem to be relatively competition free... so I'm doubting we're trading any of the same items. I'm kind of shocked at how little growth there has been in Citadel though. As the player base has expanded the volume has stayed very stable. Citadel isn't such a hot market it seems... but i'll try it for a bit just to make sure.
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.08.06 07:52:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Shadarle I think I'll check out the citadel again, still have a few orders there anyhow... might as well update stuff and see what is going on. See if I can figure out what you're up to.
Awesome!
It's amazing how big the market is. All of my favorite items seem to be relatively competition free... so I'm doubting we're trading any of the same items. I'm kind of shocked at how little growth there has been in Citadel though. As the player base has expanded the volume has stayed very stable. Citadel isn't such a hot market it seems... but i'll try it for a bit just to make sure.
I almost exclusively buy in The Citadel, only have a few sell orders. I think the main reason you can't sell stuff is that there is simply no reason for the people in the main areas to buy. Firstly, having been a mission runner, I know that very few missions in The Citadel will take you into low sec, also, most people running them are experienced enough to not lose thier ship. In other words they rarely need any new stuff.
When they do need/want new stuff they will usually go to Jita as it's only a few jumps and will invariably offer better deals.
That's what I think anyway
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.08.06 12:22:00 -
[23]
Quote: Have you observed this with both centralized (hub specific) trading and de-centralized (non-hub/region wide) trading? Interesting stuff.
I only buy/sell at hubs, and I've known people to be very merticulous in how they set their prices, so maybe it's just someone like me periodically checking their prices in their usual market business and had the same thought as me (didnt need to undercut the cheapest seller, just needed to cut me), and kept undercutting exactly the same way.
Dunno, just seemed a little too precise and inhuman, especially the undercutting at a higher price than the lowest in-system price. Improve Market Competition! |
Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 13:04:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote: Have you observed this with both centralized (hub specific) trading and de-centralized (non-hub/region wide) trading? Interesting stuff.
I only buy/sell at hubs, and I've known people to be very merticulous in how they set their prices, so maybe it's just someone like me periodically checking their prices in their usual market business and had the same thought as me (didnt need to undercut the cheapest seller, just needed to cut me), and kept undercutting exactly the same way.
Dunno, just seemed a little too precise and inhuman, especially the undercutting at a higher price than the lowest in-system price.
I don't limit myself to trading hubs, I find the volume is far too low to be worth my time. (one of my rules, time is money!)
I've seen some aggressive pricing but typically I never check it unless it's against my buy orders. Some of my sell orders are priced ABOVE regional lows and they still sell. Diversification for the win! I've been really pushing limits on this point lately and it seems to hedge my most aggressive orders nicely in most cases.
I've identified only ONE aggressive bidder on buy orders for the entire region (on the items i trade). I found out his name this morning when I sold him something. =)
His "tag" is x.99, I won't disclose his name. Later today I'll find out some more about him. Always good to know your "enemy."
Assuming someone can figure out what kind of items I trade, they should be able to find out my "tag" pretty easily.
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JdJinator
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Posted - 2007.08.06 13:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shadarle I think I'll check out the citadel again, still have a few orders there anyhow... might as well update stuff and see what is going on. See if I can figure out what you're up to.
Go back to where you came from, those few orders are annoying enough for me! lol
*sig in construction* |
Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 13:36:00 -
[26]
Originally by: JdJinator
Originally by: Shadarle I think I'll check out the citadel again, still have a few orders there anyhow... might as well update stuff and see what is going on. See if I can figure out what you're up to.
Go back to where you came from, those few orders are annoying enough for me! lol
Just wait till I can actually spend some time on them in in the next few days. =)
Best Regards, Hexxx aka "Mr. 31"
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.08.06 16:47:00 -
[27]
I find it very funny people have those .xx's so you can tell who they are. I've never found it hard to track my own items... so I don't understand the need.
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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 17:31:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Hexxx on 06/08/2007 17:32:23
Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 06/08/2007 16:55:13 I find it very funny people have those .xx's so you can tell who they are. I've never found it hard to track my own items... so I don't understand the need.
But then again, it really doesn't matter who I'm trading against... I want to crush every single person and most everyone behaves similarly.
I trade in alot of items (my market quickbar requires quite a bit of scrolling) and to be able to rapid fire "at a glance" assess my bids, it helps to do two things.
1) The xx method where you place a number at the end of a price, (24,000,000.31) for example and... 2) All buy bids come from a single out of the way station.
Using this is the fastest and easiest way for me to assess my positions.
p.s. Come play in the Citadel.
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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.06 17:40:00 -
[29]
They're there. I'm still gathering a bit of steam but you should be seeing me if you look in the right spots.
If you catch me in game, I'll tell you the items and (most importantly) why I trade them.
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Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink The Sundering
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Posted - 2007.08.07 15:12:00 -
[30]
Update!
My inventory is growing nicely, no problems on that front. Actually, my inventory is grow a bit too quickly! My sales have yet to fully catch up, but are moving nicely on their own.
I've seen this pattern before, where sales volume takes a while to catch up because inventory hasn't reached a "tipping point" in terms of distribution. Again, time SHOULD resolve this inequity...we'll see where things are next week.
Competition has backed off the items I'm trading, partly due to my aggressive pricing. Margins are extremely slim....which I compensate for by charging a price appropriate to the location of the item. Sometimes I can charge more for an item depending on where it is....I've made quite a few sales this way already and it helps support my extremely aggressive bids.
My hedges seem to be work...no one has dumped anything on me yet, but I'll keep monitoring transactions for any signs of that.
That is all!
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