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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
4925
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Posted - 2012.01.14 10:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Because they don't work properly, so either suggest a fix for them or don't bother arguing really, because one thing you haven't factored every time you post and try to attack my idea you bump up the thread to the top and attract more interest :D I always reply to topics that are on the front page, whatever that has to do with anything.
The counters may not work for you, that's no surprise tbh, but this doesn't mean they don't work.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
314
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Posted - 2012.01.14 11:05:00 -
[32] - Quote
We have warp core stabs to counter individual points, bubbles are stationary and can be flown out of, and HICs are usually slow enough that most battleships can outrun them with a MWD.
Oh wait... you want to disengage after you have committed to a battle. Choose your targets better next time and/or alter tactics to accommodate escape plans (hint: kiting a target is very popular for a reason).
To summarize: I looked at your idea and wrote it off as redundant and overpowered. "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Valei Khurelem
147
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Posted - 2012.01.14 11:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
So you want a game where the moment you pick a fight with someone you either instantly lose or instantly win? |
Max Von Sydow
Droneboat Diplomacy
158
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Posted - 2012.01.14 12:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
I honestly can't remember when I last saw an idea this bad on the forums. |
Torin Corax
Zebra Corp
100
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Posted - 2012.01.14 12:11:00 -
[35] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:So you want a game where the moment you pick a fight with someone you either instantly lose or instantly win?
Personally I'd like a game where I have to make a judgement call based on acquired knowledge, previous experience, tactical awareness, practical skill and maybe a little luck. And should I make a bad decision I DIAF as the consequence of that decision....oh wait, I know a game like that. If you want a "get out of jail free card" I think there is a board game that has that already.
Warp core Stabilizers already exist, counter-bubble tactics already exist, counter-HIC tactics already exist. All of these require preparation, knowledge and occasionally some skill to use effectively. They are not 100% infallible, which is working as intended. In my opinion you are asking for too much of a safety net, one that is not needed.
If I had an inappropriate signature, it would be removed from here By. Spitfire |
Valei Khurelem
147
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Posted - 2012.01.14 12:35:00 -
[36] - Quote
Max Von Sydow wrote:I honestly can't remember when I last saw an idea this bad on the forums.
Then make a better suggestion.
By the way, to fuel the discussion more, I did some digging and found a post from a time when people were clearly nicer to noobs.
http://eve-search.com/thread/476448/page/1
Quote:1. MWD out of it, some of your gang will die but hey. 2. Blast the campers, you cause enough damage / jamming to the campers and they may well run if you've got enough force present. 3. Destroy a bubble, if you've got enough damage output at short range you can destroy a medium bubble. Large bubbles probably not, shooting at the campers would get better results.
So that pretty much is why I want something like this put in. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
4926
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 13:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
Posted - 2007.02.15
Give it up, your idea is bad and simply not required.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Valei Khurelem
148
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Posted - 2012.01.14 13:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
Why? :) |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
4926
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Posted - 2012.01.14 13:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Why? :) Because there are already counters in game.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Valei Khurelem
148
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Posted - 2012.01.14 13:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
You said yourself though, they don't always work, yet the method for ganking people does, why is that? |
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
4926
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Posted - 2012.01.14 13:19:00 -
[41] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:You said yourself though, they don't always work, yet the method for ganking people does, why is that? I didn't say that at all.
Ganking is ganking and can be avoided too. Your point is?
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Torin Corax
Zebra Corp
103
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Posted - 2012.01.14 13:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:You said yourself though, they don't always work, yet the method for ganking people does, why is that?
If the methods to counter ganking don't always work, it follows that they sometimes do. Therefore the methods for ganking don't always work, they sometimes do.
Balanced no? If I had an inappropriate signature, it would be removed from here By. Spitfire |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
4926
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 13:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Torin Corax wrote:Valei Khurelem wrote:You said yourself though, they don't always work, yet the method for ganking people does, why is that? If the methods to counter ganking don't always work, it follows that they sometimes do. Therefore the methods for ganking don't always work, they sometimes do. Balanced no? Thanks, you put it much better than I.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Valei Khurelem
148
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Posted - 2012.01.14 13:28:00 -
[44] - Quote
So then what happens if you're up against a large bubble and a fleet? |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
4926
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 13:30:00 -
[45] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:So then what happens if you're up against a large bubble and a fleet? If you have the correct counter, there is a very high chance you'll escape.
Why? Do you think there should be a 100% chance to get out every situation? Oh wait....
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Valei Khurelem
148
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Posted - 2012.01.14 13:36:00 -
[46] - Quote
Please detail it further so my feeble brain can understand and this thread can be laid to rest :)
Also, if you'd go and read the post again rather than pretending I said something that was never said, I think the chance should be dictated by the player and not by a pre-set rolling of the dice between the numbers 4 - 6 which is essentially what you are advocating.
I do believe you want games like final fantasy and not EVE. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
4926
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 13:40:00 -
[47] - Quote
Let me put it this way, you quoted a post from 2007. A full 2 years from when one of the counters was introduced.
You're asking for a new module and you're not even aware of the counters that already exist? I shouldn't be surprised, I suppose. Oh and the chances are already mostly dictated by the player. If you happen to fail more than most, then that's your problem.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Torin Corax
Zebra Corp
104
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 13:43:00 -
[48] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:So then what happens if you're up against a large bubble and a fleet?
Depends on what you are flying, and how well you fly it, versus what they are flying and how well they fly it. You have a chance to escape. If not you died to a fleet that outnumbered you, out-gunned you, and out-played you. This is balanced.
Those who live and operate in null-sec have a vested interest in securing their space, and the tools (deliberately) exist to allow them to do so. If you wish to challenge their "ownership" of said space it is incumbent on you to out-play them. Bring a fleet, kill their ships, pillage their pos's, enjoy the lamentation of their women.
If I had an inappropriate signature, it would be removed from here By. Spitfire |
Valei Khurelem
148
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Posted - 2012.01.14 14:15:00 -
[49] - Quote
Genuinely thanks for the response, it's just a shame it took so many pages of trolling to come to that, that said though, my new scenario is this, if only one or two players set up multiple warp bubbles just to gank one player in a tiny frigate how exactly is that balanced? Even if you scanned down the warp bubbles before hand, they'd still end up ganking you because while you're busy trying to scan for them they'd still end up getting you because while you're looking they can warp disrupt and fire away.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, in the end no matter how hard you try as a solo or small corp the gankers are always going to win why can't you have an equal chance of taking them down that doesn't revolve around you having to waste millions of ISK buying expensive gear?
Either way this goes, the game essentially rewards the vets but pretty much says GTFO to any new people that come in and it's reflected pretty much in the attitude presented by players not just on this thread but the entire forum and it stops the player base from growing or more people for that matter willing to venture into 0.0 and low sec. |
Torin Corax
Zebra Corp
104
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 14:48:00 -
[50] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Genuinely thanks for the response, it's just a shame it took so many pages of trolling to come to that, that said though, my new scenario is this, if only one or two players set up multiple warp bubbles just to gank one player in a tiny frigate how exactly is that balanced? Even if you scanned down the warp bubbles before hand, they'd still end up ganking you because while you're busy trying to scan for them they'd still end up getting you because while you're looking they can warp disrupt and fire away.
How is it not? They came prepared to fight certain targets, you provide the very target they are prepared for while being unprepared to deal with the situation. That is pretty much the essence of combat. If you knew the bubbles were there beforehand, as mentioned above, and you still get caught, you have either failed to apply tactics you knew you should use, or learnt an aspect of tactics you will need to use in the future. It's called a learning experience
Quote:This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, in the end no matter how hard you try as a solo or small corp the gankers are always going to win why can't you have an equal chance of taking them down that doesn't revolve around you having to waste millions of ISK buying expensive gear?
As a solo there are ways around the scenario mentioned above, been there done that. As a small corp, in the scenario above you should get at least one kill if you are quick enough. Again, if you lack the knowledge or experience to do either it is up to you to learn. We all had to learn, every damn one of us. What makes either you (if this is a scenario from your experience) or any other new player entitled to special treatment?
Quote:Either way this goes, the game essentially rewards the vets but pretty much says GTFO to any new people that come in and it's reflected pretty much in the attitude presented by players not just on this thread but the entire forum and it stops the player base from growing or more people for that matter willing to venture into 0.0 and low sec.
I was not a "vet" when I learnt (the hard way) about bubble traps. I was not a vet when I learnt how to set them up. What makes you a "vet" is learning this stuff. I still wouldn't consider myself a vet, I have far too much yet to learn before I presume to take on that title. Difference is I expect to have to learn the hard way, and I look forward to the challenge, it's what keeps me interested in playing.
If I had an inappropriate signature, it would be removed from here By. Spitfire |
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Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
142
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Posted - 2012.01.14 14:55:00 -
[51] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Quote:I also think there should maybe some kind of AoE version of this except it will effect everybody so that means all warp disruptors are shut down as well as bubbles and anyone can have a chance to escape. So if a friend gets trapped in a bubble you could rush in to help them before the enemy arrives. There you go? :)
So wait a minute. You want, in a rifter, to be able to, for zero effort, escape points, bubbles and focused HIC points? The things that will hold down anything under a supercap, an entire fleet and literally anything you aim them at respectively?
And you can't see how this is overpowered?
This module would make it impossible to kill capital ships. They would all fit it and jump out when tackled. It would make it impossible to defend your space. Anyone who wanted to get in could easily do so. It wouldn't be newbies doing that though, it'd be older players in bombers, recons, T3s (Since you won't need to gimp them with a nullifier anymore) and cyno ships. All things intended to go **** up the space you own, hotdrop your ratters, gank your industrial guys etc, and it would be absolutely impossible to stop them, as even if you catch them once they're in, they'll hit this module and fly somewhere else.
You have to keep in mind, anything you put in for new players, or for solo players, or whatever, will be abused to hell and back by vets in huge alliances. |
Valei Khurelem
148
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Posted - 2012.01.14 14:57:00 -
[52] - Quote
Yet again it's another, I want to win instantly and gank those ******* noobs situation, why is it, when you are armed ready for fighting you should still automatically lose just because the other guy has subscribed longer?
You aren't even willing to give players the chance to run from a fight they can't win so why should I accept being ganked just because of the fitting I chose as well? Also, if you aren't smart enough to track them down and box them in properly, I frankly think you'd deserve to lose your system, if players are quick on their reactions and planning then they should be rewarded for that.
Even if vets did abuse the crap out this, clever noobs would still be able to flee from them, so it's not like either side is going to benefit from constantly using it, a module like this would mean that only players who WANT to fight will get caught up in one.
Edit: The censorship on this forum is just ******* stupid :( |
Torin Corax
Zebra Corp
104
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 15:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Yet again it's another, I want to win instantly and gank those ******* noobs situation, why is it, when you are armed ready for fighting you should still automatically lose just because the other guy has subscribed longer?
Why is it when you are "armed ready for fighting" you should have the right to disengage from any fight as soon as you realise you are out-classed? Pick you fights already. Picking fights has nothing to do with SP, it has everything to do with experience and preparation. If the person who has played longer has more experience, and applies that experience well then of course (s)he should be triumphant.....though this is Eve, there are no guarantees even for him/ her.
Quote:You aren't even willing to give players the chance to run from a fight they can't win so why should I accept being ganked just because of the fitting I chose as well?
You seem determined to ignore the fact that you do have a chance to escape, just as you have the chance (with proper preparation/ planning/ tactics) to turn the tables on the gankers and **** their day up. Bad fits are themselves a learning experience, you'll see some crappy fits on my loss mails I'm sure. Fail->Learn->Improve->Triumph(and fail again sometimes).
Quote:Also, if you aren't smart enough to track them down and box them in properly, I frankly think you'd deserve to lose your system, if players are quick on their reactions and planning then they should be rewarded for that.
You want their system, play better than them. Of course you will have to learn how.
Quote:Even if vets did abuse the crap out this, clever noobs would still be able to flee from them, so it's not like either side is going to benefit from constantly using it, a module like this would mean that only players who WANT to fight will get caught up in one.
"clever noobs" don't need this module, they have taken the time to learn how to play and have already avoided the gankers. Not so clever players (noobs aren't always new ya know ) come on to the forums and whine about how CCP should give them stuff to let them do what they want without having to learn how.(note: this is not aimed at anyone in particular) This was what made a certain fantasy MMO synonymous with over-entitled whiny players, and gave rise to a certain popular meme on these boards. I am trying not to make assumptions here, but you are really making me wonder if this is a pure troll thread. If I had an inappropriate signature, it would be removed from here By. Spitfire |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
142
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 15:43:00 -
[54] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Yet again it's another, I want to win instantly and gank those ******* noobs situation, why is it, when you are armed ready for fighting you should still automatically lose just because the other guy has subscribed longer?
You aren't even willing to give players the chance to run from a fight they can't win so why should I accept being ganked just because of the fitting I chose as well? Also, if you aren't smart enough to track them down and box them in properly, I frankly think you'd deserve to lose your system, if players are quick on their reactions and planning then they should be rewarded for that.
Even if vets did abuse the crap out this, clever noobs would still be able to flee from them, so it's not like either side is going to benefit from constantly using it, a module like this would mean that only players who WANT to fight will get caught up in one.
Edit: The censorship on this forum is just ******* stupid :(
How can you track down and box in someone who can warp away from any tackle? If it is literally impossible to trap them, which is the result of your module, what good will tracking someone down do?
Clever newbies don't get caught more than a few times. I suppose you'd nerf the kind of instalocking gatecamp ships people sue to alpha frigates too, right? Just because newbies?
You're totally ignoring the wider impact of a module like this. Why do you want invulnerable capitals? |
Valei Khurelem
149
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Posted - 2012.01.14 16:11:00 -
[55] - Quote
They wouldn't be invulnerable, yet again, the activation time would take care of that and we can make the activation time longer if people do in fact abuse it too much. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
142
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 16:33:00 -
[56] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:They wouldn't be invulnerable, yet again, the activation time would take care of that and we can make the activation time longer if people do in fact abuse it too much.
Fifteen seconds to alpha a capital eh?
Go on then. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
4926
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 17:27:00 -
[57] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Genuinely thanks for the response, it's just a shame it took so many pages of trolling to come to that, that said though, my new scenario is this, if only one or two players set up multiple warp bubbles just to gank one player in a tiny frigate how exactly is that balanced? Even if you scanned down the warp bubbles before hand, they'd still end up ganking you because while you're busy trying to scan for them they'd still end up getting you because while you're looking they can warp disrupt and fire away. So disagreeing and saying your idea is bad = trolling? You've now had to change the scenario to try and convince yourself (it can't be us) that your idea has merit, even though 14 of us think it's a bad idea.
It still doesn't of course, because there are already counters in the game. Those counters may be situational and also dependant upon your fit, but that doesn't exclude them as counters.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Valei Khurelem
152
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Posted - 2012.01.14 17:39:00 -
[58] - Quote
No Mag's, people who post saying my idea is bad and cite useless or expensive modules are people who are trolling me, when someone puts actual thought into their posts not specifically designed to completely derail the topic then they get respect and a good debate, that goes for anyone you interact with.
Every time you have someone post something that would genuinely improve the game and make it more fun there always seems to be four or five of you ready to try and discredit them, granted, it means you actually have to argue your position but that's a little bit more difficult to do when all the person posts for a number of pages is "NO, IT'S STUPID" without explaining themselves or their position on the matter.
Maybe you should read a book or two, look at some good articles and learn how to write without sounding like an arrogant prat and if you want to cite numbers now 29 people have liked my thread so that makes your numbers argument pretty weak. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
4941
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 18:08:00 -
[59] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:No Mag's, people who post saying my idea is bad and cite useless or expensive modules are people who are trolling me, when someone puts actual thought into their posts not specifically designed to completely derail the topic then they get respect and a good debate, that goes for anyone you interact with. But surely you expect someone with any idea, to know what counters already exist? You seem not too, or just don't want to acknowledge them.
Valei Khurelem wrote:Every time you have someone post something that would genuinely improve the game and make it more fun there always seems to be four or five of you ready to try and discredit them, granted, it means you actually have to argue your position but that's a little bit more difficult to do when all the person posts for a number of pages is "NO, IT'S STUPID" without explaining themselves or their position on the matter. But your idea doesn't improve anything, it simply introduces an unnecessary module that strikes many as rather unbalanced.
Valei Khurelem wrote:Maybe you should read a book or two, look at some good articles and learn how to write without sounding like an arrogant prat and if you want to cite numbers now 29 people have liked my thread so that makes your numbers argument pretty weak. Talking of reading and prats, it often helps that you also comprehend what you are reading. Tell me, just how many likes are actually aimed at you and your idea?
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
145
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 19:59:00 -
[60] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote: all the person posts for a number of pages is "NO, IT'S STUPID" without explaining themselves or their position on the matter.
You mean like you're doing to every criticism we make?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I only criticize suggestions that deserve it. Yours definitely does.
Also, for the record, a cloaky nullified t3 isn't really all that expensive, and WCS do exactly what they're supposed to. The penalty is a little strong, but a combat ship has other ways to get out of a scrap anyway. |
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