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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
578
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Posted - 2012.01.15 01:45:00 -
[91] - Quote
I find it funny that the Brick Squad guy is arguing about a small gang environment while the Amarr FW guy is arguing about massive fleet battles with supercaps and triage carriers.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Name Family Name
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2012.01.15 01:55:00 -
[92] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I find it funny that the Brick Squad guy is arguing about a small gang environment while the Amarr FW guy is arguing about massive fleet battles with supercaps and triage carriers.
-Liang
In case you're refering to me with 'the Amarr FW guy': out of 7 years playing this game with up to 5 accounts, I had one character on one of these accounts in Amarr FW for two years which ended about 2 years ago... |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
338
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Posted - 2012.01.15 02:05:00 -
[93] - Quote
im noticing that lately fleet comps have a little more variation. significant number of Tier 3's running about. still no Gallente ships, other than the Talos.
as an aside, i will fly an armour Deimos over a Cane in an armour gang any day. DPS is about the same, slightly worse projection, but the Deimos is much easier to rep, it's faster and can sig tank like a champ. |
Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate
20
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Posted - 2012.01.15 03:23:00 -
[94] - Quote
Havent read thread. By title, assume it is a troll. By page length, assume it is success.
10/10. |
Robertson Nolen
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.01.15 05:16:00 -
[95] - Quote
I like to fly pieces of paper, so i fly tornados. Never in my life would I want a cane with a decent amount of ehp |
Cyzlaki
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
199
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Posted - 2012.01.15 07:49:00 -
[96] - Quote
HAC's are useless now too. As the new BC's are better in every way while being cheaper |
Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2012.01.15 08:05:00 -
[97] - Quote
so Tier3 are better then Tier2 like Tier2 were and are better then Tier1 BC.
Discovering what? just don't fly it and you re fine. |
Groperson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.01.15 14:15:00 -
[98] - Quote
Ahahaha brick squad are mentally deficient |
Antodias
Ship spinners inc
7
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Posted - 2012.01.15 19:40:00 -
[99] - Quote
EHP doesn't matter? Tracking doesn't matter?
God I've been playing EVE wrong for years |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1216
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Posted - 2012.01.15 20:50:00 -
[100] - Quote
@Title: Only if they don't fit a Warp Disruptor or Scrambler. |
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DaRiKavus
Expendable Asset's
7
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Posted - 2012.01.15 21:18:00 -
[101] - Quote
Greetings all,
Seems I am a little late to the party so I will say my piece and be off.
As a huge fan of the Cane I have a few points to make (some made previously and possibly better as well) All my comments come from small gang experience so please bear this in mind when reading futher.
In the past the Cane has proven to be a very versatile ship for me to fly. Nano fitted with dual neuts and a flight of light drones, it was possible to dictate range whilst dealing a relatively decent ammount of DPS (all be it right on the edge of falloff), mantain the GTFO factor as well as take some punishment before Logi could get some reps on you (if needed) Armour fitted it is possible to fit dual webs and scram, web scram and TP, Web scram and ECCM etc etc. Bolt on a fair chunk of armor (65k EHP isnt so bad) and still reach 1400 m/s. Deal some nice DPS and take on a variety of targets solo or in a gang, under gate fire if needed. Same detail with lights or if your feeling particulary offensive some ECM drones can be thrown out for local tears.
Now we have the Tornado to play with. Now working with Nano fits I can get superior speed and range dictation, having an effective falloff from 33Kms out to 50 Kms plus (fit dependant ofc). Deal more DPS (on paper) but with half the tracking of med turrets a little more skill is required to fully apply damage to a target. I can not fight under gate guns either.
In short the Tornado, in perfect circumstances is better than a cane. However, IMHO, I now have less targets to engage (I dont mean solo). Couple of curse pilots fully loaded with Med Neuts/TD and a few Keres is going to ruin my day. Ofc that has always been the case with any ship type in Eve and there is a counter to every fleet comp. I guess my point would be this.
Yes the Tornado is a powerful ship, no argument from me there. What I disagree with is the OP statement/question that the Cane is now useless. It still has its place in space and I will happily continue to fly it, amongst other "useless" ships that have been written off in the past.
Well I shall leave it there and wait for someone with more knowledge and experience rip my argument out from under me........still going to fly a cane though :)
Darik 07
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Ilvari
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
30
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Posted - 2012.01.15 21:27:00 -
[102] - Quote
Ask occupational hazard how their sniper gangs work against an opponent that uses probes |
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
792
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Posted - 2012.01.15 23:29:00 -
[103] - Quote
A 1600mm Cane w/ HAMs can get 27% less dps and 56% better ehp than a Talos, as well as having better tracking and selectable damage types.
There's still a place for the Cane. |
Cyzlaki
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
199
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Posted - 2012.01.16 00:53:00 -
[104] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:A 1600mm Cane w/ HAMs can get 27% less dps and 56% better ehp than a Talos, as well as having better tracking and selectable damage types.
There's still a place for the Cane. Deimos does everything better than an armor cane |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
953
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Posted - 2012.01.16 00:54:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cyzlaki wrote:DarkAegix wrote:A 1600mm Cane w/ HAMs can get 27% less dps and 56% better ehp than a Talos, as well as having better tracking and selectable damage types.
There's still a place for the Cane. Deimos does everything better than an armor cane
A HAC doing something better than a BC?
*gasp* - the imbalance! morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Aisha's Vengence
18
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Posted - 2012.01.16 00:55:00 -
[106] - Quote
Cyzlaki wrote:DarkAegix wrote:A 1600mm Cane w/ HAMs can get 27% less dps and 56% better ehp than a Talos, as well as having better tracking and selectable damage types.
There's still a place for the Cane. Deimos does everything better than an armor cane
My Talos. |
Cyzlaki
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
199
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Posted - 2012.01.16 01:10:00 -
[107] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Cyzlaki wrote:DarkAegix wrote:A 1600mm Cane w/ HAMs can get 27% less dps and 56% better ehp than a Talos, as well as having better tracking and selectable damage types.
There's still a place for the Cane. Deimos does everything better than an armor cane A HAC doing something better than a BC? *gasp* - the imbalance! Yep. The point is, when going to fit a cane, there is always a superior alternative to it. And it's horrible in logi fleets anyway |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
953
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Posted - 2012.01.16 01:29:00 -
[108] - Quote
Cyzlaki wrote: Yep. The point is, when going to fit a cane, there is always a superior alternative to it. And it's horrible in logi fleets anyway
Ok - I'm in troll feeding mood...
And your problem with that is?
You claim a curse is better at neuting than a cane - true - you claim is a deimos can keep up with a cane - probably true.
Probably that's because a ship that's basically free to lose and can be flown by any 1-month old is supposed to be worse than more skill- and cost intensive specialized ships in their specialized roles.
Sheesh - what's next?
"Reapers are pointless because I can't solo an Erebus with it"? morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Roosterton
Shattered Star Exiles SpaceMonkey's Alliance
239
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Posted - 2012.01.16 01:38:00 -
[109] - Quote
Cyzlaki wrote:DarkAegix wrote:A 1600mm Cane w/ HAMs can get 27% less dps and 56% better ehp than a Talos, as well as having better tracking and selectable damage types.
There's still a place for the Cane. Deimos does everything better than an armor cane
They have similar DPS, the 'Cane is slightly slower but has more range and selectable damage types, the Hurricane has 10k more EHP, the Hurricane has a second web, the Hurricane has a second neut.
Nope, sorry, try again. |
Cyzlaki
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
199
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Posted - 2012.01.16 01:41:00 -
[110] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Cyzlaki wrote: Yep. The point is, when going to fit a cane, there is always a superior alternative to it. And it's horrible in logi fleets anyway
Ok - I'm in troll feeding mood... And your problem with that is? You claim a curse is better at neuting than a cane - true - you claim is a deimos can keep up with a cane - probably true. Probably that's because a ship that's basically free to lose and can be flown by any 1-month old is supposed to be worse than more skill- and cost intensive specialized ships in their specialized roles. Sheesh - what's next? "Reapers are pointless because I can't solo an Erebus with it"? I don't have a problem with it and I'm not trolling. I don't know why you all get so defensive. What I'm saying is is, we're not 1 month old characters anymore, and yet people are still flying canes in horrible fleet compositions instead of the superior alternatives. I am asking why, when it is pointless to do so. Or maybe there has been something I've overlooked. If this thread is any indication, people fly acane over other ships because of it's tank, which I find rather amusing as it has quite a poor tank for a BC |
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Large Collidable Object
morons.
955
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Posted - 2012.01.16 02:19:00 -
[111] - Quote
Cyzlaki wrote: I don't have a problem with it and I'm not trolling. I don't know why you all get so defensive. What I'm saying is is, we're not 1 month old characters anymore, and yet people are still flying canes in horrible fleet compositions instead of the superior alternatives. I am asking why, when it is pointless to do so. Or maybe there has been something I've overlooked. If this thread is any indication, people fly acane over other ships because of it's tank, which I find rather amusing as it has quite a poor tank for a BC
Because it is not pointless - a uniform cane-gang is easy to form, mobile and versatile, because everyone can fly a cane - this game has been cane/drake/dramiel-online for the last three years.
FC a gang for a low SP corp and ask for ships - everyone can fly a cane and is willing to bring it thanks to low cost - ask for a specific hac/recon/logi combo and you're lost because of people who think the can fly the ship because of all V skills but can't fly it at all or people who say they can fly it because they can sit in it.
All in all it boils down to the problem of T1 insurance - flying a cane is no risk at all whereas the loss of 5 HACs/Recons costs more than a carrier being popped.
Of course that's not because of things being expensive (thanks to incursions, everyone's a billionaire), but because of K/D faggottery.
To sum this drunken rant up: - If you think you'd do better in a well-composed HAC/Recon gang, do it if you can. - If you think you fly with a blob of 3 month old casuals who think they own, field canes. - If you think you're flying with total imbeciles that are outsmarted by a keyboard macro, fly drakes.
We'll see where the Talos settles in, but OP? no - not at all - maybe slightly favourable under some circumstances after the null buff... morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Umega
Solis Mensa
38
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Posted - 2012.01.16 02:36:00 -
[112] - Quote
Cyzlaki wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:Cyzlaki wrote: Yep. The point is, when going to fit a cane, there is always a superior alternative to it. And it's horrible in logi fleets anyway
Ok - I'm in troll feeding mood... And your problem with that is? You claim a curse is better at neuting than a cane - true - you claim is a deimos can keep up with a cane - probably true. Probably that's because a ship that's basically free to lose and can be flown by any 1-month old is supposed to be worse than more skill- and cost intensive specialized ships in their specialized roles. Sheesh - what's next? "Reapers are pointless because I can't solo an Erebus with it"? I don't have a problem with it and I'm not trolling. I don't know why you all get so defensive. What I'm saying is is, we're not 1 month old characters anymore, and yet people are still flying canes in horrible fleet compositions instead of the superior alternatives. I am asking why, when it is pointless to do so. Or maybe there has been something I've overlooked. If this thread is any indication, people fly acane over other ships because of it's tank, which I find rather amusing as it has quite a poor tank for a BC
Why cane.. because people are lemmings. First n foremost. Usually led by lemming FC/CEOs that fabricate nothing on their own, and imploy out-dated tactics that can get torn up by the stuff that isn't talked about much on the EVE forums for good reason.. or new strategies/counters that are brought up get buried by all the lemmings not knowing any better on here. Why they don't know any better.. idk, idiots, forum warriors, dopplegangers :shrugs:
Secondly.. cane is cost effective.. coupled with decent to good at everything, master at nothing. It is a good ship.. but being master of nothing leaves holes for the masters to wreck it, repeatedly. Don't get me wrong, good ship.
Put One and Two together.. when you consistantly get blown up.. you start to lean towards the cheaper option, that also carries a stigma of 'win'-matar.
If you are running in not very organized groups, led by not very good FCs.. you want a very versitle cheap ship, cane delivers here. This right here I believe is the answer to the Cane's popularity.
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DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
803
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Posted - 2012.01.16 03:06:00 -
[113] - Quote
Explosive damage > Kinetic damage Yes, it's a silly thing to say, but that's what keeps Minmatar ships a step ahead of Gallente ones. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
587
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Posted - 2012.01.16 03:11:00 -
[114] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Explosive damage > Kinetic damage Yes, it's a silly thing to say, but that's what keeps Minmatar ships a step ahead of Gallente ones.
This could perhaps have been true back before almost every sub battleship in the explored universe was shield tanked... but now? I'm not sure its so true anymore. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
803
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Posted - 2012.01.16 03:14:00 -
[115] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:DarkAegix wrote:Explosive damage > Kinetic damage Yes, it's a silly thing to say, but that's what keeps Minmatar ships a step ahead of Gallente ones. This could perhaps have been true back before almost every sub battleship in the explored universe was shield tanked... but now? I'm not sure its so true anymore. :) -Liang Also, EM damage > Kinetic damage Guess which race has access to both EM and Explosive damage, and can switch between them at a whim? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
587
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Posted - 2012.01.16 03:16:00 -
[116] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:DarkAegix wrote:Explosive damage > Kinetic damage Yes, it's a silly thing to say, but that's what keeps Minmatar ships a step ahead of Gallente ones. This could perhaps have been true back before almost every sub battleship in the explored universe was shield tanked... but now? I'm not sure its so true anymore. :) -Liang Also, EM damage > Kinetic damage Guess which race has access to both EM and Explosive damage, and can switch between them at a whim?
The ability to deal flexible damage types is nice, certainly, but there's an awful lot of omnitanking out there these days. I don't tend to worry about damage type unless I have clear evidence that I should (such as when I'm facing a T2 ship).
-Liang
Ed: Afterall, a 10 second reload penalty is hardly at a whim. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cyzlaki
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
199
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Posted - 2012.01.16 03:36:00 -
[117] - Quote
Switching damage types isn't really important in PVP like it is in PVE. Lol bears |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
34
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Posted - 2012.01.16 16:45:00 -
[118] - Quote
I would like to point out that no Tornado can point at all really and live to tell the tale, armour canes can brawl in and short point and burn down, shield canes can kite, still have enough EHP to hold out and long point and do DPS.
The Tornado is a good gank platform that is all, it can do one thing, deal damage, that makes it better than the Cane at dealing damage, it is nowhere near as functional or as versatile. And it cant tear frigs apart the way Hurricanes most certainly can.
And yeah canes aren't useful in logi fights or anything, its not like my Hurricane tanked an entire gang yesterday without even turning up the temps.
EDIT: And yeah people never change damage types, its not like some ships have naturally exploitable resist holes, sorry am I being a carebear with all my PVP talk. |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
58
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Posted - 2012.01.16 17:05:00 -
[119] - Quote
Umega wrote:Cyzlaki wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:Cyzlaki wrote: Yep. The point is, when going to fit a cane, there is always a superior alternative to it. And it's horrible in logi fleets anyway
Ok - I'm in troll feeding mood... And your problem with that is? You claim a curse is better at neuting than a cane - true - you claim is a deimos can keep up with a cane - probably true. Probably that's because a ship that's basically free to lose and can be flown by any 1-month old is supposed to be worse than more skill- and cost intensive specialized ships in their specialized roles. Sheesh - what's next? "Reapers are pointless because I can't solo an Erebus with it"? I don't have a problem with it and I'm not trolling. I don't know why you all get so defensive. What I'm saying is is, we're not 1 month old characters anymore, and yet people are still flying canes in horrible fleet compositions instead of the superior alternatives. I am asking why, when it is pointless to do so. Or maybe there has been something I've overlooked. If this thread is any indication, people fly acane over other ships because of it's tank, which I find rather amusing as it has quite a poor tank for a BC Why cane.. because people are lemmings. First n foremost. Usually led by lemming FC/CEOs that fabricate nothing on their own, and imploy out-dated tactics that can get torn up by the stuff that isn't talked about much on the EVE forums for good reason.. or new strategies/counters that are brought up get buried by all the lemmings not knowing any better on here. Why they don't know any better.. idk, idiots, forum warriors, dopplegangers :shrugs: Secondly.. cane is cost effective.. coupled with decent to good at everything, master at nothing. It is a good ship.. but being master of nothing leaves holes for the masters to wreck it, repeatedly. Don't get me wrong, good ship. Put One and Two together.. when you consistantly get blown up.. you start to lean towards the cheaper option, that also carries a stigma of 'win'-matar. If you are running in not very organized groups, led by not very good FCs.. you want a very versitle cheap ship, cane delivers here. This right here I believe is the answer to the Cane's popularity. I agree that the 'Cane is still relevant due to its cost-effectiveness and versatility. I can fit artillery to the thing and snipe out to 60-70km while still having a flight of drones + the ability to fit a neut or two for anti-tackle. I can get a 60+k EHP tank on it alongside dualwebs or web+ewar. I can point-range kite with it in a shield/nano setup. I can passive tank it or active armor tank it for PvE. It can be useful for Incursions in a pinch. And in any one of these cases, I'm spending no more than 150-200mil for the complete package, and the hull is fully insurable. And yes, logis CAN keep 'Canes alive (I've only had a couple of moments in Incursions where I even had to consider heating hardeners, and an OTA can hammer you pretty darn good if you ask me). Also, I can fly it solo, in a quick-and-dirty small gang, or as supplemental DPS in a fleet. (And don't try to say that HACs>BCs in all cases. I wonder why there's a reason I've only ever seen a HAC, like, once in W-space PvP? BTW: don't try to tell me the Hurricane is terrible at tanking, the Harbinger is just as good (or bad) and comes from a race that is supposed to know how to tank ships)
And even if you have good combat FCs, you still will have a need to be able to throw a quick-response gang together and go, instead of waiting half an hour to try to assemble a doctrinal fleet composition (getting logistics pilots in particular is a big thorn in your side in that case, as people tend not to have 2-3 different logistics cruisers with them wherever they go even if they can fly logis).
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March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
110
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Posted - 2012.01.16 17:40:00 -
[120] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Cyzlaki wrote:I ask you again. What you're asking was never in question, so why are you asking? that's how Tippia get's crap load of posts (and possible likes). Evading any direct question and posting posts w/o content.... Forum people like it
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