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Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.08.14 12:50:00 -
[1]
below is my original post in another thread, which i removed and put here. i'd just like to know why it is that some people come at folks like isso and bmbe like they're the antichrist (and i'm not saying that those folks are wrong, i normally tend to agree with them if not join in on it); BUT, they have nothing bad at all to say about two public corps (emfi / aatp) that have done pretty much nothing at all this entire year and last year probably performed worse than isso and bmbe normally do.
Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 14/08/2007 12:29:38
Originally by: Naphtalia I confirm the facts in the OP, however it is the shareholders choice to vote for CEO, I supported Asriel to taking this task and have confidence.
I won't be voting with any of the shares in my possesion (not personal nor in EMFI) to make it a shareholder choice.
it's not like there's really a choice to be made. sorry, but it's true.
vote no and the billions of investor isk sit idly by for another 6 months? last div was when? last dec or jan? and whomever has a lot of isk tied up sitting idle, just hopes that "scam" doesn't happen?
vote yes, and at least someone is doing something with the isk.
does a no vote mean that the corp gets liquidated and investors get all the proceeds? if not, then what's the point of voting no?
ya know, i'm sorry; but after the huge uproars you see on a monthly basis JUST about ISSO and BMBE, i have to ask --
all you people upset about those two, do you have no isk at all invested in emfi or aatp?
or is it just that you've thought of those two corps (all year long) as a safe place to leave your isk so you don't spend it? because i sure haven't seen any of you throwing fits about the mismanagement (i.e. nothing but losses, no divs, billions sitting idle for the better part of a literal year, et cetera).
if it turns out that discontented isso/bmbe investors DO have substantial amounts tied up in emfi and/or aatp, then i just have to wonder about their motives behind flaming the former two on a monthly basis but not even mentioning the latter two...
if beni wants a story for his evetv, there's you a nice one.
edited to add: oh, real life stuff happened: got burned out, hit by a bus, aliens abducted me, etc... thought these corps had provisions in place for things like that happening, i.e. drama provisions. |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.14 13:30:00 -
[2]
The reason why Naphtalia made those statements is because he doesn't want to be declared at fault if either I or Shiva Shakti turn out to be scammers in the manner of Prigogine Technologies. Secondly, he also doesn't want to be seen as telling the shareholders what to do; if the shareholders don't trust me or Shiva Shakti, they shouldn't be forced to accept either of our leadership (and should have the option of liquidation).
23 Member
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.08.14 13:58:00 -
[3]
I think Ezoran's main point, is that EMFi seems to be on a different pedestal to that of BIG/ISSO. The lack of content, updates, dividends, and losses are all good reasons for an investor to generally be disappointed but it is strange to see the market don't tear Naph's head off over it, whilst they won't hesitate to do so for those other corps mentioned.
Frankly, Ezoran does have a point. I have a high respect for EMFI so this isn't counted as an attack in any way, it is just strange to see the double standards in play by the general public I guess.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:06:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ricdic I think Ezoran's main point, is that EMFi seems to be on a different pedestal to that of BIG/ISSO. The lack of content, updates, dividends, and losses are all good reasons for an investor to generally be disappointed but it is strange to see the market don't tear Naph's head off over it, whilst they won't hesitate to do so for those other corps mentioned.
I think there are multiple reasons for this.
1) People saw Naphtalia disappear for a few months. Many people had basically relegated most of their shares to the dustbin and were in many ways simply glad to have Naphtalia back at all.
2) People are sick of the stock market drama.
3) EMFI has a history of good treatment of investors and being open to suggestions and comments. BMBE, on the other hand, is exactly the opposite, which is why they've always gotten a bad rap.
23 Member
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Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:09:00 -
[5]
You are complaining that there is not enough complaining? How can I satisfy you exactly?
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:12:00 -
[6]
This is probably the first time that Charisma is actually important in EVE. Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dr Slurm This is probably the first time that Charisma is actually important in EVE.
Well you can always make up for it with good equipment. A Nymph's cloak and the appropriate cap can raise Charisma by as much as 4 points each.
Oh wait, wrong game...
23 Member
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:16:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dr Slurm This is probably the first time that Charisma is actually important in EVE.
Well you can always make up for it with good equipment. A Nymph's cloak and the appropriate cap can raise Charisma by as much as 4 points each.
Oh wait, wrong game...
23 Member
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Naphtalia
Caldari The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:29:00 -
[9]
Just to chime in... the vote isn't for "liquidation OR new CEO" but "This CEO or look for another CEO"...
recruitment |
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.08.14 15:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Naphtalia Just to chime in... the vote isn't for "liquidation OR new CEO" but "This CEO or look for another CEO"...
Which new CEO, presumably, would preside over the liquidation of the corp, since it's hard to imagine more-qualified CEO's to continue to run operations, given the corporations and proposed CEO's involved here.
Still, valid point, there is a difference.
MP --
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression! |
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Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dr Slurm This is probably the first time that Charisma is actually important in EVE.
Ricdic hit it on the head, and a combination of what Dark Shikari and Dr Slurm said may very well be on the money as the reason(s) why.
Which also goes back to when Proton Power had a bad (or late) div, but he was all upfront about what was going on and everyone was cool with it.
Goes to show how PR (both good and bad) CAN go an extremely long way.
With Ray seemingly poised to take over BMBE (if he hasn't already), I'd think it's a safe assumption to make that BMBE won't be getting anywhere near the flack it has been all these months even IF divs don't change one iota (possibly even if they drop a bit).
With ISSO not planning on posting monthly reports on eve-o again (per their last report), will they be forgotten on eve-o? or will people (rightfully) complain that isso can't be arsed to be bothered with posting on boards where they(isso/stins/whichever) can't *moderate* the truth? |
Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 17:15:00 -
[12]
With Tornsoul it was the contrast between his arrogance and lack of performance/effort that brought such criticism on him. When Tornsoul started he had very good reputation and then he "cashed it in."
Ray is coming from a different level and he does what he says he will do so there is no need to criticize him too strongly. In a way it seems that maybe the good/working/unseen part of the TS/Ray partnership was Ray.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.08.14 17:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rthor With Tornsoul it was the contrast between his arrogance and lack of performance/effort that brought such criticism on him.
This I totally I agree with.
Originally by: Rthor When Tornsoul started he had very good reputation and then he "cashed it in."
This I don't.
Quote: The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.14 17:59:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Dr Slurm This is probably the first time that Charisma is actually important in EVE.
Ricdic hit it on the head, and a combination of what Dark Shikari and Dr Slurm said may very well be on the money as the reason(s) why.
Which also goes back to when Proton Power had a bad (or late) div, but he was all upfront about what was going on and everyone was cool with it.
Well Proton Power earned it. He demonstrated consistently superb dividends over and over; you can't complain about getting "only" 7% return when everyone else is struggling to get 5%.
23 Member
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Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 18:30:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Rthor on 14/08/2007 18:30:15
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Rthor When Tornsoul started he had very good reputation and then he "cashed it in."
This I don't.
Which part? I assume the second part. Well that is probably we disagree. I think that all public companies in Eve borrow capital from their shareholders. And I believe that the cost of this capital to a public company should be higher than 2-3 percent per month because shareholders should be compensated for their risk of the management screwing up intentionally or unintentionally and also for the risk of a patch and aging of the game making their ISK worth less. What I mean is that whenever a new patch makes getting ISK easier the existing ISK is devalued. Also if you can get your hands on a lot of ISK it gives you competitive advantage when new content is released because you can invest in opportunities.
So in my opinion Tornsoul was able to borrow 100 billion from his shareholders for a very cheap interest rate and he was using this money for his own investments. This is what all public eve companies could do because money is fungible.
This is my point and this is why I think how I think about public companies in Eve.
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Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:39:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Rthor on 14/08/2007 19:39:40
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.08.14 20:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Rthor This is my point and this is why I think how I think about public companies in Eve.
I still don't entirely agree with the point you make regarding Tornsoul's situation or intent however I do applaud your explanation of your point.
Pretty good, enough so that I'm not going to detract from it by arguing points of it.
Quote: The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks! |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.08.14 20:50:00 -
[18]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=575006&page=1#9
see, this is what i'm talking about, that makes no sense from an investor's point of view, specifically:
"On behalf of shareholders I would like to take this opportunity to thank Naphtalia for his vision with EMFI. It is a unique corp and was run by a unique CEO of the highest integrity. I hope to see EMFI Manager return in the future "
thank you for making no isk in a year's time and being absent for 6+ months from the emfi/aatp aspect at least? nice.
for a corp that has made investors next to no isk in a year's time, this sort of thing honestly makes me wonder. i guess it shows the sort of returns/share performance that certain individuals expect?
from the quoted text, one could basically leave his/her isk in their wallet, put out a couple of incredibly cheap buy orders, resell those a few months later and i've accomplished the same or better, profit-wise.
good PR is great; but it's very odd (read-funny as hell) that no one cares that their isk hasn't made them any money in a year's time; yet, they have all the faith in the world that some day it will eventually do something.
from an outsider's point of view, if i knew no one from adam -- those type of people would strike me as either in on something, or obvlivious to the purpose of purchasing publicly traded corporations' shares/stocks.
i say this, because if the evetv commentaries do bring new people to the publicly-traded-shares-market; don't be surprised if you see a number of 'what the...' statements.
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Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 21:17:00 -
[19]
Well additional factor is that some of these people may have quit the game also. Average lifespan of eve account is something like 9 months. So if you borrow money through IPO, pay out 3 percent per month this gives you 33 months before you run out of ISK from the IPO. If your investors have quit, they do not complain, and if they do not complain they have quit. They might come back of course but thats when PR would need to come in.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.14 21:50:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/08/2007 21:53:00
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd thank you for making no isk in a year's time and being absent for 6+ months from the emfi/aatp aspect at least? nice.
If you're going to flame some of the oldest public corporations in EVE, at least get your facts right.
How do you expect people to flame a corporation that hasn't done well in the past 7 months (not 12 months) due to its core business model, which people used as their primary reason for investing in the first place, and had nothing to do with the competence of its CEO, who took a break from EVE for two months?
Imagine you have a mutual fund that invests in precious metals. All precious metals decline, and the mutual fund loses some money. Do you think people are going to go out and say "damn, the mutual fund owner did a bad job?" No, they'll say "damn, the market went down, I hope it goes back up."
Bad performance, alone, is not a justifiable reason for flaming/insulting a CEO. Bad performance because of incompetence by the CEO, however, is.
23 Member
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EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz
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Posted - 2007.08.15 07:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
thank you for making no isk in a year's time and being absent for 6+ months from the emfi/aatp aspect at least? nice.
Well, whilst the absence was something that would normally be frowned upon, the corporation is somewhat designed to make money regardless of whether it's CEO is online or not. Of course, having said that, things like corporate buy backs, selling out when a corp looks to be failing, and buying into new corporations was not done. Luckily there haven't been any scams of late, or major stockmarket changes that would require the above incidents (short of the EMFi issue itself).
We were having a chat about this in EGSEx last night, most notably the amount paid out over time. It was interesting to see the age of corporations, and we managed to isolate the 5 oldest public corporations in Eve that are currently still in existence.
These corps, in order of creation:
EMFI AATP BMBE C-R-A ISSO
All but ISSO have reached 1 year old now.
Anyway, Banni Vinda had purchased shares at IPO date and had kept all dividend evemails so we were able to determine precisely how much EMFI has paid out over time.
It came close to 24.64b paid out in dividends on a 100b IPO. This is over approx 14 months. So it comes out to approx a 3.44% monthly dividend. While a lot of corps do pay out at higher levels, it still should be shown as considerably impressive that even with a 25b loss that the corp incurred, such a large amount of isk was paid out to shareholders.
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Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.08.15 12:06:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 15/08/2007 12:07:59
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/08/2007 21:53:00
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd thank you for making no isk in a year's time and being absent for 6+ months from the emfi/aatp aspect at least? nice.
If you're going to flame some of the oldest public corporations in EVE, at least get your facts right.
How do you expect people to flame a corporation that hasn't done well in the past 7 months (not 12 months) due to its core business model, which people used as their primary reason for investing in the first place, and had nothing to do with the competence of its CEO, who took a break from EVE for two months?
Imagine you have a mutual fund that invests in precious metals. All precious metals decline, and the mutual fund loses some money. Do you think people are going to go out and say "damn, the mutual fund owner did a bad job?" No, they'll say "damn, the market went down, I hope it goes back up."
Bad performance, alone, is not a justifiable reason for flaming/insulting a CEO. Bad performance because of incompetence by the CEO, however, is.
so you're saying that aatp and emfi both have done the returns they have over the past year because of... bob?
and i did read that right. 2 months. no divs for half a year or so doesn't cover a two month vacation from eve, does it?
but i do remember that emfi and aatp are the only two corps you've ever publicly endorsed. ironic. |
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.08.15 12:21:00 -
[23]
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic good stuff.
so IF you bought into at the ipo time or the next couple of months, you made a little money.
if you bought it in the past 7 months+ (it being emfi and aatp) you made jack.
now, on to just this interesting situation in general.
looking at it as a whole, IF you spin it, can make that 3%+ sound decent/good. but, there has been no activity for most of the life of the corp. overlooking that is definitely showing an unjustified bias. i could make a corp, give out 50% divs the first month and not do anything again for two years and my "overall" numbers would look pretty decent/average. but, that doesn't mean i did anything worth a damn with the corp or that i did a good job managing those funds for all that time (i.e. they sat idle for most of those two years).
it's all in the context in which you look at it (or don't look at it) and the spin (if any) you put on it.
i choose to look at it from the point of view that i'm just some average joe (or a forum alt, right ds?), which i am just an average joe, and i can't say that sitting on tens of billions of isk for all this time doing nothing for the public with that isk, is being a good steward of the isk.
if anyone does believe that is being a good steward, by all means, send me all the isk you can muster and i promise i can sit on it for 7 months+ and give you no divs and then go find a ceo to run the business for me.
flame that if you wish, it's what is being defended. |
Fury Banker
Fury Bank
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Posted - 2007.08.15 12:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Imagine you have a mutual fund that invests in precious metals. All precious metals decline, and the mutual fund loses some money. Do you think people are going to go out and say "damn, the mutual fund owner did a bad job?" No, they'll say "damn, the market went down, I hope it goes back up."
And what would they say if the management of the fund then vanished from sight for months? And what would they say if when the fund management finally returned they, in effect said "We're bored of this - so you can have a vote. Your choices are: a) Nothing happens and I maybe vanish again, b) Some of my friends take over running the fund."
Don't you think they'd be saying "Hey! where's option c - we get our money back. It's been tied up doing nothing for ages so we'd rather have it back then put in the hands of people who apparently believe vanishing for months is perfectly acceptable."
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2007.08.15 13:00:00 -
[25]
I'm glad to see all this hyperbole oozing out of the *****s after a decision has been made. Very constructive. Where were all you naysayers when things were being sorted out over the past two months? Where were your opinions then? It's always easy to comment with hindsight in your arsenal.
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Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.08.15 13:07:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ray McCormack I'm glad to see all this hyperbole oozing out of the *****s after a decision has been made. Very constructive. Where were all you naysayers when things were being sorted out over the past two months? Where were your opinions then? It's always easy to comment with hindsight in your arsenal.
i got tired of *****ing about stupidity several months ago. pretty much got tired of DS backing "doing nothing" for months on end and defending it like it was the holy grail.
others have been skeered that if they spoke out, then they'd lose billions cuz "oh i got tired of yall saying it was a scam, so i scammed". people learned from eib.
but feel free to troll and spin it. ballerinas spin a lot as well. |
Rthor
Gallente Smugglers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.15 13:12:00 -
[27]
Rthor Bank IPO
Capital needed: 200B (I need more capital because the more the bank has the more I can loan out and more loans is more money)
Dividends: Guaranteed 10 percent per month
If the bank is a success, as I am just figuring out if there is demand and there seems to be since Eefrit is doing well, there will additional rounds of funding every 6 months also paying out guaranteed 10 percent per month.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.15 13:44:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/08/2007 13:44:42
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Ray McCormack I'm glad to see all this hyperbole oozing out of the *****s after a decision has been made. Very constructive. Where were all you naysayers when things were being sorted out over the past two months? Where were your opinions then? It's always easy to comment with hindsight in your arsenal.
i got tired of *****ing about stupidity several months ago. pretty much got tired of DS backing "doing nothing" for months on end and defending it like it was the holy grail.
OK, so you think that EMFI should have done something different.
Explain to me what EMFI should have done, considering they had loads of shares that are very difficult to sell and had almost no ISK capital?
I mean if you constantly flame it, you must have a better plan, right? Honestly, I'm interested in hearing this one.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Sexy
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Posted - 2007.08.15 14:04:00 -
[29]
Sexy thinks Rthor's bank idea is just so sexy! Full endorsement from the sexy part of Eve.
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Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.08.15 14:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/08/2007 13:44:42
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd
Originally by: Ray McCormack I'm glad to see all this hyperbole oozing out of the *****s after a decision has been made. Very constructive. Where were all you naysayers when things were being sorted out over the past two months? Where were your opinions then? It's always easy to comment with hindsight in your arsenal.
i got tired of *****ing about stupidity several months ago. pretty much got tired of DS backing "doing nothing" for months on end and defending it like it was the holy grail.
OK, so you think that EMFI should have done something different.
Explain to me what EMFI should have done, considering they had loads of shares that are very difficult to sell and had almost no ISK capital?
I mean if you constantly flame it, you must have a better plan, right? Honestly, I'm interested in hearing this one.
i seem to obviously be too stupid to come up with a plan over the course of a year's time. you must be correct, that sitting on it for 6+ months, not communicating with the public and then finding other scape-CEOs to run the corp must be the only way to do anything. guess that's why no other production corp or mutual fund have made zero profit the past year. oh wait.
wouldn't i be running a public corp if i could be assed to bother with those details? oh wait, someone WAS running those corps and doing anything with them.
if you don't like the cussing, oh well. i don't like people that talk in circles and blindly defend something obviously in the wrong. guess we all have pet peeves. aside from the past two days, when has ANYTHING this toon posted been starred out?
oh yeah, never. so please, find something else to whine about in random threads.
is that why the ONLY two public corps you've backed in recent memory (emfi and aatp) have made SO much profit the past six months? just for clarification, in this case "SO much profit" = zero
you also should just post "i hate squirrel turds". seriously. |
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