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Ms First Teacher
Flight Academy
0
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Posted - 2012.01.14 18:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Recently our corporation experienced a very nasty side of EVE war mechanics, such as corp quits right in the war action. I filed a petition and now I know that rules forbid players to leave a corp involved in a war only during combat. Our enemy quit his corp, undocked and when our fleet shot him, we were CONCORDed.
Here is our conversation with GM for this incident:
Quote: We have a situation with our corp involved in a war with Beyond the Dark Moon. Our fleet was fighing their member, Dragon's Heart in a high-security space. Then suddenly he left his corp right in combat and all our fleet got shot by CONCORD. Then he applied back to Beyond the Dark Moon. His employment history if full of such joins/quits. How can we fight him if he always can get us concorded and get away?
Please tell me if this is an exploit or we can also mass-quit our corp and get our enemies concorded? ==== Hi,
Leaving a corporation while in space and especially while in combat is prohibited and is considered an exploit. However if the player leaves the corporation before undocking or before jumping into the system that is allowed. If you believe that the player abused this mechanic and left his corporation while engaged in combat then I suggest that each member that lost a ship files a reimbursement petition in the appropriate category where a GM will investigate the issue thoroughly and then reimburse the ship losses if they find that an exploit was indeed used.
Best regards, GM Alvaldi EVE Online Customer Support Team === I told all our pilots that lost a ship to file a petition. But why don't you make the same thing with pilots leaving corps at war as there is with corps leaving alliances? 24 hours of allowed shooting and there will be no such incidents like what happened to us.
Anyway, please check if Dragon's Heart left his corp before shooting or right in the action. What we witnessed is that he was red with war sign on a portrait and then we got shot by CONCORD. ===
In this case the player docked before changing corporation and then undocked after changing corporations making this not an exploit in this case. Unfortunately that means that we will be unable to reimburse the losses you suffered due to this.
Best regards, GM Alvaldi EVE Online Customer Support Team === Okay, I understand. Thank you for your time and very quick reaction. === You are very welcome, always happy to help! Is there anything else I can assist you with or would you like for me to close the petition?
Best regards, GM Alvaldi EVE Online Customer Support Team === It will be great if you could do something with such quit/join behaviour.
Our corporation is full of new players who simly don't understand such mechanics and have no experience in such tricks. We did not started the war, and he does the same thing with the same prey, he always declare wars on a newbie corporations. And he quits his corp and joins it again and again. A frigate is not a big loss for an experienced player but for a newbie it is all that he had. After our loss 3 of our members left EVE, and if our war will continue like this I think more will quit playing, because we have no way to play: we cannon stop the war, and we cannot fight our enemy, he sets us up to CONCORD. === Unfortunately there is little that I can do to prevent this from happening as players are free to jump from corporation to corporation as long as they don't do it in space or while in combat. However by explaining these mechanics to the players of your corporation you can hopefully prevent this from happening again. As for the war then that is also in line with the game mechanics where players are free to declare war on all corporations.
If you have any good ideas on how to counter this behavior and make EVE a more new player friendly place then please share them on the "Features and Ideas Discussion" forum and maybe your ideas will be implemented into the game.
Best regards, GM Alvaldi EVE Online Customer Support Team ===
So I have an idea about all this. What if a person that quit corporation under war will still be eligible target for another 24 hours as it is with a corporation that leaves an alliance at war? If it is hard to make this 24-hrs timer what about some sort of aggression timer that will start when the person leaves corporation, but recently attacked someone at war? Just like if he stole something from us, the yellow 15-min timer. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
213
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Posted - 2012.01.14 19:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Step 1: remove NPC corps - People unaffiliated with corps are decable like anyone else. They are simply 'Unaffiliated'. Step 2: Enable a cooldown timer that exponentially increases over the span of a month. You quit a corp, it takes 24 hours to join a new one. Leave it and want to join another one that same month, it takes 48 hours. Then 96. Etc. Step 3: Apply the same rule to corps hopping alliances.
With bounty hunter system in place and independent wardecs, corp/alliance hopping will only work for a matter of time and soon they'll have noone to turn to at all. |
Kolya Medz
Kolya Inc.
26
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Posted - 2012.01.15 05:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
I want to be able to outbid people who try and dec me. Money is power, right? |
Saernjinn
Twa Ingin Pehs
0
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Posted - 2012.01.15 06:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Something along those lines has happened to me, i was station camping a war target, then all of a sudden he undocks, i try to shoot but get concord warning, and then he simply warps away. I check his character sheet and he left his corp, and this made me mad. Not 5 min later i check again and he is BACK in the same corp i have wardecced. This was a day or 2 ago, and again not 30 min ago, this happens again, same character, AND one of his friends from the same corp. This is not fair for people who play to wardec corporations in an attempted to accomplish something. I think there should be a 12 hour cool-down period at the least to prevent this from happening. |
Vodaqlex
Twa Ingin Pehs
0
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Posted - 2012.01.15 07:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
I can't believe there are so few posts about this. This is one of the most infuriating experiences I've had in eve. More than the invisible gate guns. More than the locking up in a mission. camping a dood for hours to have him leave corp, then leave the station, then leave the system and rejoin his corp again.
Not as bad as the doods in the earlier post who were concorded *shudder* but clearly this is simple to fix. There simply has to be a cool down period. I would say 24 hours. Nicolo's suggestion below - the exponential thing - instead of (or along with) joining a corp, the cooldown period should increase.
But there may be a significant amount of programming work involved in that that may make it unappealing to the devs. The code exists for corps leaving an alliance, right? Can this not simply be ported over to a character? Like tomorrow please? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
215
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Posted - 2012.01.15 07:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
People need to be able to be kicked out/leave corp right away for stuff like spying, awoxing, corp theft and scam corp invites.
The problem isn't people's freedom to leave corporations - it's the existence of a default 'permaCONCORD protection mode' that hisec players have access to instantly whenever they need it. Eliminating the absolute safety of that combined with punishing delays for frequent corp-hopping means would be abusers will eventually be forced with the prospect of PVP after hitting undock. |
Ms First Teacher
Flight Academy
1
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Posted - 2012.01.15 13:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think there should be aggro timer for leaving wardec corp. You left corp, but their wardecs can still shoot you while the timer is on. At least 15 minutes, like theft aggro timer. But 24 hours, like corp stasis, will be more suitable. |
Valei Khurelem
161
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Posted - 2012.01.15 14:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Step 1: remove NPC corps - People unaffiliated with corps are decable like anyone else. They are simply 'Unaffiliated'. Step 2: Enable a cooldown timer that exponentially increases over the span of a month. You quit a corp, it takes 24 hours to join a new one. Leave it and want to join another one that same month, it takes 48 hours. Then 96. Etc. Step 3: Apply the same rule to corps hopping alliances.
With bounty hunter system in place and independent wardecs, corp/alliance hopping will only work for a matter of time and soon they'll have noone to turn to at all.
Way to make the game unplayable for anyone except those with tech 2/3 ships, massive amounts of ISK and large fleets at their disposal, the reason these exploits are being used is because people don't WANT to be war decced, if you give the people the option of declaring whether or not their corporations will take part in war decs will mean people are going to stick around in the game.
If you do things this way you will constantly have assholes running around and ganking anyone who doesn't want anything to do with NPCs corporations or for that matter being in a big alliance and ratting or mining in 0.0 space for big alliances, why the hell do people like you have so much against people who don't want to play the same way you do? All that is going to happen after implementing this sort of idea is that you'll have a huge portion of the player base simply leaving, me included. I've been wardecced about 3 times so far and I've had morons threatening me over the recruitment channel just for wanting to create a casual corp for people to hang out in, if this really is the direction CCP are going to take EVE in I'll gladly leave the damn game.
This game isn't dead or dying just yet, but if things keep going as they are, it's going to die an extremely slow and painful death much like Star Wars Galaxies did. |
Ursula LeGuinn
60
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Posted - 2012.01.16 02:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Way to make the game unplayable for anyone except those with tech 2/3 ships, massive amounts of ISK and large fleets at their disposal....
EVE isn't unplayable if you remain in NPC corporations. Quite the contrary: You can create your own private chat channel(s), add your friends to your contacts, create a mailing list, fleet up with your associates, and engage in various activities with said associates. You can start a VoIP server and a website.
You just don't get an official name, an emblem, a headquarters or any of the other benefits associated with incorporation.
Valei Khurelem wrote:...the reason these exploits are being used is because people don't WANT to be war decced, if you give the people the option of declaring whether or not their corporations will take part in war decs will mean people are going to stick around in the game and those who actually are happy to fight you will fight.
To say that people don't want to be wardecced is to state the blatantly obvious. That's the trouble: If wardecs were consensual, almost all highsec corporations would decline any wardec declared by superior forces. There exists a need to take the fight to pilots living in highsec other than suicide ganks and contract traps.
If you raise a banner with which to represent yourself, declare a name by which all may know you, found a headquarters, start flying and functioning as a unit, and begin accepting applications, you're painting a target on yourself. You're agreeing to take part in a system that offers both benefits and drawbacks.
The problem is that most highsec dwellers don't approach their wardecs the right way. Instead of seeing them as learning experiences, you see them as inconveniences. Instead of activating a naked jump clone and climbing into a cheap Rifter to spar your enemies for fun and show your bravery, you feel you're being prevented from having fun. Instead of learning how to watch for your enemies properly and travel safely, you stay docked. Instead of learning how to deny them what they want (tears, easy kills) you send angry emails and engage in their smack talk, thereby encouraging them.
The above is the wrong way to play this game no matter who you are. EVE never was, has never been and never will be a game in which groups of people can feel 99% safe from being harmed by other players. I'll admit the aggressor/defender balance has always been off-kilter and is very hard to balance, but if it has to go one way or the other?
I side with the wardeccers.
Edited to add: I helped found a little PvE corp of casual friends back in 2007. In fact, I was the CEO for a while, though I haven't been a part of it in a very long time. That little corp went through numerous wardecs, but today GÇö over four years later GÇö they still exist and are even part of a modest little alliance that does a bit of PvP. Know why they're still around? Because they approached the MANY wardecs they suffered with the proper attitude. "The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community."-áGÇö-áEVElopedia |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
133
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Posted - 2012.01.16 03:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
So just let me clarify, you were stalking one guy with a fleet outside of a hisec station and complain that he gets CONCORD protection?
What you are proposing is essentially some kind of mechanic that has no counter (otherwise whatever counter the other side will come up with will be the counter that you will be complaining about) that will allow you to kill anyone in hisec the same way as losec for a relatively small fee, which makes hisec basically the same as losec.
I'm sure you understand that this will make all the hisec PVE players quit the game and CCP will never ever allow this, right?
Hi sec is for people who like safe PVE style play. Losec is for people who enjoy other playstyles. Any uncounterable mechanic that allows to turn hisec into lowsec will kill EVE. |
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
216
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Posted - 2012.01.16 03:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Valei Khurelem wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Step 1: remove NPC corps - People unaffiliated with corps are decable like anyone else. They are simply 'Unaffiliated'. Step 2: Enable a cooldown timer that exponentially increases over the span of a month. You quit a corp, it takes 24 hours to join a new one. Leave it and want to join another one that same month, it takes 48 hours. Then 96. Etc. Step 3: Apply the same rule to corps hopping alliances.
With bounty hunter system in place and independent wardecs, corp/alliance hopping will only work for a matter of time and soon they'll have noone to turn to at all. Way to make the game unplayable for anyone except those with tech 2/3 ships, massive amounts of ISK and large fleets at their disposal, the reason these exploits are being used is because people don't WANT to be war decced, if you give the people the option of declaring whether or not their corporations will take part in war decs will mean people are going to stick around in the game and those who actually are happy to fight you will fight. Have you ever considered the option of relying on non-CONCORD based protection for playing EVE-Online? |
Goose99
674
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Posted - 2012.01.16 04:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ms First Teacher wrote:I'm mad
Indeed.
At one time, it was possible to quit corp in space, while being shot. Then CCP fixed it so you can only quit while docked. And all is well.
You dec a corp, not a player. htfu |
Jade Mitch
The Scope Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2012.01.16 05:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ms First Teacher wrote:Quote: What we witnessed is that he was red with war sign on a portrait and then we got shot by CONCORD.
That's what needs to be fixed. When a player leaves a corp at war, they should no longer appear as a war target.
Problem solved. |
LeHarfang
Intersteller Masons Wonder Kids
24
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Posted - 2012.01.16 06:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jade Mitch wrote:Ms First Teacher wrote:Quote: What we witnessed is that he was red with war sign on a portrait and then we got shot by CONCORD.
That's what needs to be fixed. When a player leaves a corp at war, they should no longer appear as a war target. Problem solved.
Exactly my thought. Why was he flagged as a war target if he was'nt one anymore? Also, there is already an agression timer of 15 minutes in the game.
But i agree a bit with the OP (even though he and his fleet should have seen the warning message before attacking). These kind of BS makes high sec wars clearly unfair and annoying. I mean, i agree that if you're the war-deced, you should be able to leave the corp and come back once the war is over, but the war-decers should knew well before the war started that they would go in war. They should know already if they want to fight or not and if they are caught like this in a station, with the war-deced outside, they should'nt be able to escape as easily as this without getting in a fight.
Actually, both the wardeced and the wardecers knew they were going to war before it started because there is a 24 hour timer before it starts. Simply stop people from leaving while at war of if they leave, they can't join back for its duration and help the fighters. |
Valei Khurelem
169
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Posted - 2012.01.16 08:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:Valei, have you ever considered how thousands of invulnerable
Invulnerable? You're really claiming that?
I've been wardecced about 3 times and threatened more the moment I started actively recruiting for my corporation, why should I pay tons of tax to go around in 0.0 space freely because the mechanics won't allow me to without an escort of 10 ships to scare everyone off? I had one of the most outrageous offers I've ever seen once where someone contacted me expecting my corporation to pay 16% tax just for merely flying there.
I thought this was a game that was supposed to be player-driven and a sandbox? Unless you're going to magically fix the problems with PvP and 0.0 space seriously gtfo. If this game was actually fair and balanced, people wouldn't need to corp hop, people wouldn't need to stay in NPC corporations.
It amazes me just how full of **** the forum posters on this game are sometimes because anyone who actually plays the game still without a 200+ member corporation behind them realises just how ridiculous the stuff you have to do is in order to get anywhere. Don't lie to me about EVE being a wonderful sandbox where you can do everything you can imagine when it's really just a rather poorly designed game purely for gankers to come along and butcher anyone that doesn't want to go along with their game style.
If you guys are really going to force people not to be able to corp hop, then you'd better make it so that CEO's can block war declarations because otherwise you are going to have a pretty big number of people leaving this game or just staying in NPC corporations. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
216
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 08:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
This is a thread about wardecs and NPC corps Valei. Not sure how 0.0 found its way into your ramblings.
Quote:If you guys are really going to force people not to be able to corp hop, then you'd better make it so that CEO's can block war declarations because otherwise you are going to have a pretty big number of people leaving this game or just staying in NPC corporations. 1) Ban NPC corps 2) Precedent strongly suggests that suscribers will increase, not decrease. 3) People who refuse to deal with a hisec wardec are no big loss. |
Valei Khurelem
169
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Posted - 2012.01.16 09:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
You're pretty much living in you're own world aren't you? Have you seen 0.0? That's what high sec is going to be like if we follow your idea. |
Ms First Teacher
Flight Academy
1
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Posted - 2012.01.16 09:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:So just let me clarify, you were stalking one guy with a fleet outside of a hisec station and complain that he gets CONCORD protection?
HE started the war, not us. Yes, we camped him in highsec. What else should we do? But he cheated, he left his corp and immediately undocked. Still wardec star in our local chats and still red in overview.
He always do this trick: wardec a noob corp, get them into a fight, leave corp, get them concorded, profit!
[/quote=Dream Five] Hi sec is for people who like safe PVE style play. Losec is for people who enjoy other playstyles. Any uncounterable mechanic that allows to turn hisec into lowsec will kill EVE.[/quote]
Let highsec be highsec, everyone wants to be protected sometimes.
I just want a small timer for such tricks like our enemy did. Quit aggressor corp? Still valid target for those you wardec for some time.
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Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
133
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Posted - 2012.01.16 09:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
Quote:Still wardec star in our local chats and still red in overview.
Ok, thats just a bug. File it as a bug at http://bugs.eveonline.com
It wasn't clear to me originally btw that it happened after he docked/undocked.
So the GM offered you reimbursement which seems fine to me. Maybe CCP is ok with reimbursing people rather than fixing the bug. The borderline exploiter is getting what exactly out of it? Grief? |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
929
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Posted - 2012.01.16 16:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
Please consider our forum rules:
"Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue."
Thank you. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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