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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.08.17 23:22:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Sayuri Nerfing industry in 0.0 only makes it more a playground for pew pew... sounds like counterstrike to me.
You've got it backwards. This would buff industry. Instead of moving massive amounts of compressed ore in one carrier you now need a much more serious hauling capacity. That or people learn that you can, indeed, mine trit in 0.0. Prices will likely rise some, giving something of a boost to industrialists. Pew pew types will have option besides cap blob fests trying to interdict supply lines.
Sounds better all around to me. If you do not like hauling do not do it. I know for a fact there are some who will do it.
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Riley Craven
Caldari Copacetic Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.17 23:22:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Riley Craven People have quoted the above so many times its not even funny... guess what it takes money to make money.... the time and investment spent on building a titan is balanced with the rewards of its use.
Are you going to start banning everyone in eve that Figured out a way to make things worthwhile like all the IPOS out there that invested hudnreds of billions and make the same returns as that trade route?
I honestly do not even know what you are on about here. Quote what? When did I ever go off on Titans? Where did I say people should not make money?
Quote: Newsflash if your not part of the solution your part of the problem... and since you offer no viable alternatives other telling everyone to stfu then your part of the problem.
I did offer a solution (nerf mineral compression). I have laid out my reasoning on why it should be so all through this thread. If you disagree fine. State why. So far all you do is come up with ad hominem attacks and rants that digress far from the topic at hand.
People quote your example of Bob using that trade route with a Titan... and they do it alot. Now reread my post.
I believe I have attacked your arguement on all fronts... but just to be sure.. why not make a very concise list so I can attack each point to your satsifaction.
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Voculus
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.08.18 03:53:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Voculus
Quote: I think moving minerals should be much more of a nuisance than it is today.
You can't be serious. Eve does NOT need more grind. Boring players because it's "more realistic" is not what games are about. Yes, this is a game. We pay for the entertainment value.
You'd do well to remember not everyone plays EVE for combat. Play EVE your way, I'll play my way and if that is zooming about in a freighter it is not for you to second guess.
Take your own advice. I don't care what you do in your freighter, and if you don't play for the combat, that's fine. It's not my concern. What is my concern, is that you want to ADD more grind to this game. _________________________________________________________
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.08.18 04:15:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 18/08/2007 04:16:04
Originally by: Voculus Take your own advice. I don't care what you do in your freighter, and if you don't play for the combat, that's fine. It's not my concern. What is my concern, is that you want to ADD more grind to this game.
To you it is a grind. To a miner having a reason to mine more is a good thing. To a hauler having reason to haul more is a good thing. These are not grinds to them but their business. And there are these people out there.
If you want no part of it you need not do it and no bother to you.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.08.18 04:40:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 18/08/2007 04:16:04
Originally by: Voculus Take your own advice. I don't care what you do in your freighter, and if you don't play for the combat, that's fine. It's not my concern. What is my concern, is that you want to ADD more grind to this game.
To you it is a grind. To a miner having a reason to mine more is a good thing. To a hauler having reason to haul more is a good thing. These are not grinds to them but their business. And there are these people out there.
If you want no part of it you need not do it and no bother to you.
He's semi-right, though. The changes are going to suck for industrialists and miners just as much as for everyone else. Do you think hauler pilots really want to fill their hold with cheap mins? Do you think the miner wants to be sitting right next to a juicy bistot 'roid mining VELD in 0.0?
That being said, mineral compression is a poor game mechanic, and CCP's fixing it. It's not the end of the world. If your logistics train is so ****-poor that mineral compression is essential to your everyday operations, then you've bit off more space than you can chew. Outsource to an indy corp, recruit more haulers and miners, or scale back your operation until you can handle it.
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ghosttr
Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.18 04:59:00 -
[96]
What I think needs to happen is that we need a way to transport stuff to 0.0 without the compression.
Weve been asking for a jump freighter for a long time now, and yet we still have no way of transporting goods to and from 0.0. And I think that when the compression is nerfed we need to get the jump freighter as a trade-off.
I agree that the mining compression should be the most efficient way to transport materials. But CCP should also allow us to continue importing and exporting minerals as well. And if we can compress also of minerals into a smaller area, then we need something big and mobile to move those minerals.
. Do not read this thread!!!
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Chucky
Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.18 05:07:00 -
[97]
I'm lost. what has a 430:1 compression ratio?
... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture. |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.08.18 05:58:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Chucky I'm lost. what has a 430:1 compression ratio?
The Jump Portal Generator does.
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ThaMa Gebir
Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.08.18 06:23:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Jurgen Cartis
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
The problem is when someone decide to plug in those modules offline in the highslots on frigs using a total of 0m3 for four of them. Hence how you can fit two freighter loads worth of minerals in a frig.
Actually, you can't plug 4 JPGs into a frigate, offline and transfer them that way, not flying out of a station anyway.. It literally will not let you undock if you have more than 2x your grid in modules placed on your ship, whether they are online or not, and JPGs use 100k grid. You might be able to do this from a POS ship array, but only a rigged Probe could fit even one in its cargo to equip this way.
Honestly I do not know how it is done but as I posted earlier CCP Devs found a way to do it with current mechanics. One or two others in that thread confirmed it as well although they were not sharing the trick either.
I may have just figured it out. But I ain't gunna tell you.... ----------------------------
Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........
Hah, no more hijacks here. |
Vertigo Ren
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Posted - 2007.08.18 06:55:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Amarria Black
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Do you think the miner wants to be sitting right next to a juicy bistot 'roid mining VELD in 0.0?
Planet sized veld 'roids annoy the heck out of me. I mine them.
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Karanth
Gallente Cirrius Technologies O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.08.18 06:59:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Vertigo Ren
Originally by: Amarria Black
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Do you think the miner wants to be sitting right next to a juicy bistot 'roid mining VELD in 0.0?
Planet sized veld 'roids annoy the heck out of me. I mine them.
/signed
Free beer for those who mod my sig!
There is only one sig hijack that matters, the orginal and only member of the hijack squad. me. -Eris. ps Black russians are better then beer. I'll see your beer, and raise you a goat kebab -Tirg I'll take that pint and raise you two -Timmeh I bet 2 goats, 1 pint and a bag of slugs -Lordharold I grab it all, cook it/eat and drink it all and say thank you. -Pirlouit I'll call your bluff, and go all in on 3 locks of Hutch's hair. -Incognus I'll see that bet, depending on where the hair came from. -Rauth *pushes the other mods out of the way* Mmmm, bree - Karass Bree & goat kebabs!!! I'm in!! - Yips IT WAS ME, MUHAHAHA. -Hango How did I miss free BREE!!? -Kaemonn always fashionably late - Deckard Better late than never! -Sahwoolo |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.08.18 07:03:00 -
[102]
Originally by: ThaMa Gebir I may have just figured it out. But I ain't gunna tell you....
Pretty sure I figured ity out too but I am not sharing either because as this thread shows I am opposed to the whole idea.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.08.18 07:55:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Roemy Schneider on 18/08/2007 07:57:13 look... we all agree that the jump portal generator is (a lil) excessive. as are the 4 doomsdays. ice harvesters (~297:1) are the first really disturbing module - 10m3, done.
but the former "plans" by CCP didn't address logistics at all - it was a pure mineral/time/isk/whatever sink:20% refining waste? still produces 343,995.52 m¦ out of the 1,000 m¦ module. and to all those seriously regarding compression as something like a bannable offense: i bet in two years we'll have the same discussion about this new industrial core thingy because it can "exploit" non-delivered jobs: it can jump around with 704,000m¦ (11 jobs) in it ~97,000m¦ in ship bay ~65,000m¦ in cargoholds ~13,000m¦ corp hangar = ~879,000m¦ of ore in it! jumpable! "zomg! haxploit!!! our residents don't refine in our stations anymore!!!!!!" - putting the gist back into logistics |
Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.18 08:25:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 16/08/2007 11:36:54 Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 16/08/2007 09:29:09
In all my time viewing the EVE Forums I do not think I have seen a larger and more unanimous whine than this thread responding to a recent Dev Blog on proposed changes to Ore Compression. It's almost as if they unionized or something.
A more self serving bunch of crap I have not seen in a long time. The whines were complaining of the horror of having to mine low end minerals in 0.0 space or the horrors of having to haul minerals into 0.0. After a lot of this CCP backed off a bit and serioulsy delayed implementation.
Personally I think that was a mistake. I think CCP was right on in its efforts in this case. Consider what ore compression gets you now:
- 430:1 compression ratios - Frigates that can move as much as TWO freighters (non-compressed) worth of minerals
This is ok with everyone? Well, if you read the epic thread I linked there is a nod to that being a bit much but overall the impression is leave it alone.
I kinda agree with you. However, putting a penalty with any item above 5/1 compression is way too harsh, imho. It should have concerned only items with more than a 25 to 30 compression ratio.
And your example of a frig carrying the load of two freighters is ridiculous: If you want to speak about compression, then do it with minerals, not ores. But of course, then it becomes a lot less impressive, a 300m3 cargo with 430 compression gives 130k m3 uncompressed. ------------------------------------------
What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.18 09:51:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Tzrailasa
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I can mission enough cash in a day to buy a battleship. With insurance if I lose it I can replace it with a few hours of work.
If you do lvl 4 missions in Empire in the usual Raven, and salvage and loot everything, you can easily make ~50m/hour (with decent skills and equipment). That means 4 hours to get your first BS, 2 hours for each one after that (because of insurance).
I generally agree with everything you've said ...though I do think they should have given people a longer warning. Luckily it seems like they'll still go through with this in rev 3.
CCP's giving in to people who whine will be (or has already become) the end of EVE as a challenging game....
Please this is a science fiction game, so cut a bit the fantasy part.
50 million/hour doing missions in high sec? Or your definition of "usual raven" is CNR with full officer fitting and pilot with all the relevant skill including all social maxed?
Before speaking of the missions rewards get a bit up to date, please.
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Tzrailasa
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.18 09:56:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Tzrailasa on 18/08/2007 09:57:40
Originally by: Riley Craven Now *cough* this IS about time sinks... but in rather round about way....
So here it goes... it takes time to compress things... If you get less minerals then you will have to compress more things to get the same amount as before If you have to build more things that it takes more time =time sink
Just correcting you here. THAT is NOT a time sink, simply because you don't have to DO anything active while it happens. Start the jobs, let them go for a month, finish them, you're done. Whether you have to start 25% more jobs doesn't take you longer IN-GAME (apart from a few seconds), so it is NOT a time sink.
There is an added 25% to the HAULING time, but that is minimal at best... Certainly not equivalent to 150 people shooting for hours at POS after POS....
First, maybe a few extra freighter runs in empire (unless you're smart and produce where you buy)... Then produce ~80+ JPG's. Again this doesn't take you longer IN-GAME... Even at the new reduced refine rates, this fits in a carrier, takes maybe 10 minutes to haul, and is enough to build ~360 battleships today, ~280 after the nerf. So an increase in transport time of 2-3 seconds per battleships..... Buhu, really a 'nerf' worthy of raising this big a stink about.
Hauling stuff to 0.0 has been made at least 1000% easier over the last few years. First came the T2 haulers.... Then came freighters and carriers. Then came the titan modules.
It has had many effects, not the least of which are: 1. Mining of low-ends in 0.0 is NON-existent (hell, many people don't even empty hauler spawns anymore). If low-ends were difficult to haul, people would be doing it, and a TRUE 0.0 market would emerge. It might have prices of 10+ ISK per trit, but it would be a 0.0 market!!! It would force alliances to HAVE to get industrial players living in 0.0. Today, because money in empire is so much easier to make these days, an resources so much easier to acquire and transport, 0.0 is a barren wasteland. This is LARGELY due to the ease of transportation. 2. Most of these minerals come from safe macrominers in empire. In essence, the easy transfer of minerals to 0.0 is keeping large fleets of macro'ers busy.
Even though the JPG is bad and even you agree, whatever your solution is is irrelevant. What is currently in the cards is a 20% decrease in refining. CCP has not said anything else, so that's what this issue is about.
As I said before, a storm in a glass of water. Lots of people too unwilling to change, too unwilling to look beyond their own little nose and instead look at what is good for the game in the long run.
My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance. |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.08.18 09:58:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Shadowsword And your example of a frig carrying the load of two freighters is ridiculous: If you want to speak about compression, then do it with minerals, not ores. But of course, then it becomes a lot less impressive, a 300m3 cargo with 430 compression gives 130k m3 uncompressed.
Really wish people would read before posting. Getting tired of repeating this part.
Call me a nub all you like. This is CONFIRMED by CCP Devs. Okay?
Don't believe me? It's right here.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.08.18 10:06:00 -
[108]
All I gotta ask is,,, can we please call it "Mineral compression" when referring to perfect building modules and using a perfect refine to get them all back.
I got a bit of the way through the topic and got the bejeesus confused out of me because two people talked about completely different things but called them both "Ore Compression".
They're minerals. Not ore, unless you can show me where Kernite is a requirement on a blueprint.
Back on topic slightly, I just wish this whole issue was resolved by changing the way these small modules were built, by introducing a new component layer to industry. but cmon, moving two freighterloads of minerals in one frigate is just messed up.
Improve Market Competition!
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voidvim
Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.18 13:47:00 -
[109]
Edited by: voidvim on 18/08/2007 13:50:21
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs They're minerals. Not ore, unless you can show me where Kernite is a requirement on a blueprint.
On the test server your fine bpos for turn Kernite ore into compress Kernite ore that can be used by the new industral capital ship (when it goes into a type of seige mode). Thus ore compression - I hope this clears things up.
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Riley Craven
Caldari Copacetic Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.18 15:10:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Tzrailasa Edited by: Tzrailasa on 18/08/2007 09:57:40 Hauling stuff to 0.0 has been made at least 1000% easier over the last few years. First came the T2 haulers.... Then came freighters and carriers. Then came the titan modules.
It has had many effects, not the least of which are: 1. Mining of low-ends in 0.0 is NON-existent (hell, many people don't even empty hauler spawns anymore). If low-ends were difficult to haul, people would be doing it, and a TRUE 0.0 market would emerge. It might have prices of 10+ ISK per trit, but it would be a 0.0 market!!! It would force alliances to HAVE to get industrial players living in 0.0. Today, because money in empire is so much easier to make these days, an resources so much easier to acquire and transport, 0.0 is a barren wasteland. This is LARGELY due to the ease of transportation. 2. Most of these minerals come from safe macrominers in empire. In essence, the easy transfer of minerals to 0.0 is keeping large fleets of macro'ers busy.
Even though the JPG is bad and even you agree, whatever your solution is is irrelevant. What is currently in the cards is a 20% decrease in refining. CCP has not said anything else, so that's what this issue is about.
As I said before, a storm in a glass of water. Lots of people too unwilling to change, too unwilling to look beyond their own little nose and instead look at what is good for the game in the long run.
Well I have only been playing the game for alittle less than 2 and a half years... So I wasnt here during the Great Northern wars times or the era before that... But ya know something tells me that the 0.0 empire you speak of never happened even before all the changes such as t2 haulers came out. Any industry type person old enough to comment that did this stuff way back when?
Now if things were difficult to do with little pay off, why would MORE people want to do them? See its all about human nature here and people are ALWAYS going to take the easy road if there is one. So in a word the 0.0 market you speak of would not emerge.
0.0 is not a barren wasteland because its easy to transport things, its a barren wasteland because you PVP types "claim" terrority and shoot everyone on site. It doesnt take a genius to figure out that shooting people will make them go away.
In word you are forgetting about rules of causation etc.
Personally, I dont mind changing. I am fine with them wanting to nerf compression.... I am just not fine with the WAY in which they are nerfing it. Thus my solution IS relevant because it addresses all the problems with compression without any of the game breaking side affects.
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Riley Craven
Caldari Copacetic Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.18 15:13:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs All I gotta ask is,,, can we please call it "Mineral compression" when referring to perfect building modules and using a perfect refine to get them all back.
I got a bit of the way through the topic and got the bejeesus confused out of me because two people talked about completely different things but called them both "Ore Compression".
They're minerals. Not ore, unless you can show me where Kernite is a requirement on a blueprint.
Back on topic slightly, I just wish this whole issue was resolved by changing the way these small modules were built, by introducing a new component layer to industry. but cmon, moving two freighterloads of minerals in one frigate is just messed up.
OK the topic is about both actually.
The current system is more about mineral compression because of the way it works.
CCP wants to change it from the current method to a new method that involves compressing ore instead of using modules to compress minerals.
Both are on topic.
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DeadProphet
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.18 17:28:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Quote: Tell me what are your experiences in .0? Have you ever did any logistics?
Oh lord yes. I have been in EVE 4 years and lived in 0.0 for a good while (indeed it burned me out and I gave EVE a break for a year). This is back when a Mk-V was the ****znit of haulers. There were no POS. Mining ops for a good spot of Ark meant a hauler run of 16J back to the nearest station. Often enemies would harass those runs. With no POS out there everything had to be moved up.
i highlighted the important part, you want to go back to that which drives people from the game?
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Yagyu Retsudo
Yagyu Holdings
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Posted - 2007.08.18 18:33:00 -
[113]
Agree with the OP, CCP grow some balls. The current compression exploits - because thats what they are - are ridiculous.
Now if only CCP would remove cap ship arrays from hisec that were previously anchored so noone could have a 'safe' spot to endlessly build, I would be even more happy.
Because, yeah, its stupid to have corps producing cap ships that you cannot touch - all based on a 'well, we don't want to **** off any players with current investments' mentality - they grandfather in the stupidest things leaving gaping hole sized exploits.
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Claudia Grant
Gallente Quantum Synergies YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.08.18 18:58:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Claudia Grant on 18/08/2007 19:02:58 Could not disagree more with the OP even if I tried.
First of all this isnt equal for all. Many many people have allready harvested a high bounty for getting their super-capitals and massed miners out to their 0.0 So for them the hit would be minimal. Most of the large entities who has used this mechanic for quite a while also have titans or allies with titans, established jump bridges due to sov ect.
No. This "hardliner" policy will only stomp on the newer entities and the people trying to challenge well-established entities who had this advantage and now suddenly turn on the topic as they now have a considerable advantage.
I am all for changes and some hard ones but this isnt it. It caters to grind, and allthough I hear arguments for an equal raise of 20% for ALL involved as the only result, those who has allready benefitted from this will have better buffer to sustain the increased 20% cost.
But worst of all its become central for many corporations base economics. When CCP nerfs a ship ect its equal for all but when they retro-actively strike at peoples wallets directly it can have catastrophic results for the will to try and build/achieve when you find your efforts and long term based investments torn asunder. I refer to people having paid a large amount of money for the Jump Portal Bpos. almost half a billion pr bpo. This represent a substantial investment. Which is being tampered with.
Then there is the drone regions.
They live in a place where taking away mineral compression effectiveness will send what little worth of being out there straight back to la-la land.
As I said.
I understand the ideological view of making massed logistics ect but at this time I just dont see it happening like this.
Im most certainly in favour of some way to change the landscape of eve but over time. Not by assassinating a good chunk of people who allready figth the big power blocks of Eve at an unfair ground.
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cuteboylookingatyou
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Posted - 2007.08.24 16:03:00 -
[115]
It will still happen so don't think CCP has halted their plan.
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Eralus
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Posted - 2007.08.24 16:24:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Amarria Black He's semi-right, though. The changes are going to suck for industrialists and miners just as much as for everyone else. Do you think hauler pilots really want to fill their hold with cheap mins? Do you think the miner wants to be sitting right next to a juicy bistot 'roid mining VELD in 0.0?
You're missing half of the equation. The price of veld in 0.0 will either go up to the point that it's worth it to someone to mine it there, or up to the point that it's worth it for someone to haul it out there. And at that price, the miner/hauler will be making enough so that it IS worth their time, by definition. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Lucky Hydra Corp SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.24 17:12:00 -
[117]
Well said OP. Ore compression nerf is badly needed, and hopefully will come soon.
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William Alex
Viscosity
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Posted - 2007.08.24 17:13:00 -
[118]
Tedium for the sake of tedium is never a good thing. People want to play to have fun not to get carpel tunnel syndrome. I think that we can all agree on this.
Now what exactly is fun to some may not be to others.. managing logistics might be tedious to you but it might be fun for me. If we totally eliminate the logistics of 0.0 because a large vocal population claim it doesn't help the type of eve they wish to play then maybe we need to sit back and examine if this is the best cource of action.
I have full faith that ccp is doing exactly that. Taking a good hard look at how things operate now, and how they might possibly operate in the future. If you don't like to haul then don't. If no one likes to do what is a vital function, the game will break, and ccp will step in. I urge you to trust them.
Please give us a 1 depth skill queue CCP.
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2007.08.24 17:37:00 -
[119]
Agreed, ore compression is terrible idea. Why fix something that isn't broken?
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peroxide chase
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:21:00 -
[120]
take the JPG's build them in a station, fly them out to a high or low sec pos in a blockade runner or something with the space.
use the pos to fit them to a frig/ceptor/covert, your choice. covert and ceptor being the best.
end resualt = covert ops freighter or 15km/s freighter.
why not step it up a level and see if you can then pickup the said frig/ceptor/cover with a carrier from the pos (scoop to hanger) and see if you can get 40 freighters worth of mins into a carrier..... surprised this has not been done
you should be able to get something like 12-15b isk worth of mins into a carrier this way if it works out.
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