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Xeliya
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 16:42:00 -
[1]
Seeing how Dictors can hold down multi-billion isk ships that take months to build or entire fleets, they should have the same rules apply to them as other ships.
If they leave the grid, the bubble should die. Covert Op's cannot scan and warp, a Battleship cannot shoot a target from another grid, Interceptors cannot tackle from another grid and gang bonus' are being changed to on grid only.
It would also stop the warp a dictor to the gate, drop a bubble, jump though or warp a dictor in, start warp drop a bubble and your safe since you already started warp. They have a MWD it should be required if they want to drop that bubble.
Seeing how Dictor pilots will probably flame me for this, I fly a Sabre and have 3 RL friends who do too.
And TBH it would nice to see it change to a range controlled thing, something like you can only go out 200km.
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Bil Power
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Posted - 2007.08.16 16:59:00 -
[2]
I agree they are to powerfull atm and make normal bubbles almost useless
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Major Stallion
Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:03:00 -
[3]
I dont know, ever since they changed it so supercaps could be bubbled in, it seems as if that change is WAY too overpowered. Think about this here...
Interdictor fully fitted costs what, 30 to 50 mil TOPS?? Not to mention these ships can be pumped out of manufacturing slots on a regular basis.
Mothership Fully fitted costs what, (im not even going to venture a guess here) more than a few billion, lets leave it at that. Now take into consideration that the MS takes weeks (maybe months?) to build.
If the devs are all for balance, please tell me where the balance is in this idea that a 50mil ship can render the jump/warp drive of a multi billion ISK ship absolutely useless with one touch of the f1 key??
There should be a better way to go about implementing interdictors in the fight with super caps, imo.
Just my 2 isk, and im most certainly going to get flamed for my opinion on this issue...
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BaliAgha
Storm Corporation Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:29:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Xeliya Seeing how Dictors can hold down multi-billion isk ships that take months to build or entire fleets, they should have the same rules apply to them as other ships.
If they leave the grid, the bubble should die. Covert Op's cannot scan and warp, a Battleship cannot shoot a target from another grid, Interceptors cannot tackle from another grid and gang bonus' are being changed to on grid only.
It would also stop the warp a dictor to the gate, drop a bubble, jump though or warp a dictor in, start warp drop a bubble and your safe since you already started warp. They have a MWD it should be required if they want to drop that bubble.
Seeing how Dictor pilots will probably flame me for this, I fly a Sabre and have 3 RL friends who do too.
And TBH it would nice to see it change to a range controlled thing, something like you can only go out 200km.
lol, you must have been a victim..
Dictor bubbles are just fine.. Ive been a victim of them as well but you don't see me whining.
If you don't like dictor bubbles, get a scout...
If you don't have a scout, find a different route...
If you cant find a different route, don't travel...
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--------- [ST-CO] Storm Corporation <BOS> Brotherhood Of Steel |
Dead Soldier
Resurrection R i s e
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:35:00 -
[5]
Quote: If you don't have a scout, find a different route...
How do you scout for an supercap ? And now 1 ship can hold an supercap in one place and keep him there and call an big fleet to kill it.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:41:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dead Soldier
Quote: If you don't have a scout, find a different route...
How do you scout for an supercap ? And now 1 ship can hold an supercap in one place and keep him there and call an big fleet to kill it.
1 dictor cant hold supercap - support will obliterate him
Or you mean the supercap that acts like "solopwnmobile"?. Then its his fault for getting separated from others...
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Xeliya
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:42:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Xeliya on 16/08/2007 17:42:32
Originally by: BaliAgha lol, you must have been a victim..
Dictor bubbles are just fine.. Ive been a victim of them as well but you don't see me whining.
If you don't like dictor bubbles, get a scout...
If you don't have a scout, find a different route...
If you cant find a different route, don't travel...
I have yet to lose a super cap which I don't fly better yet a capital which I do and it is used often. Feel free to look me up on our KB.
I also fly dictors on my alt. From a neutral PoV dictors right now are too safe for what they do if you know how to fly them. If you want to bubble a small gate camp for your guys to come in then send some lights with the dictor to distract them or have an on-grid warp out.
When we are in a fight with lights and you need to get out you get someone to take over your point, same should apply for a dictor. I should not beable to warp in, start warp back out drop a bubble and an entire fleet or a ship worth billions + months of work is not going anywhere.
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Chi Quan
Jade Phoenix Deutschland Event-Horizon
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:42:00 -
[8]
it should be mentioned that MC has the most effective cap fleet in eve and is interested to keep it that way.
btt: consider this: the 'dictor may be able to hold down a much bigger investment, but so can a tackeling frig. and like the frig, the interdictor has no means of dealing marginally adequate damage to his prey. -- Tempus fugit -- |
Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:42:00 -
[9]
I'm making no comments about dictors and supercaps, because it is a bit off imo, but as for your first argument, it's poor. Just like dropping a scan probe and warping off and it still works, they warp disruption probe is the same. It's a probe that does it's thing independent of the ship, makes no sense for it to stop if the ship leaves. Also, dictors are far from overpowered. Stationary warp bubble can scram over an area almost 20 times larger than a dictor bubble, so how are dictor bubbles overpowered in that sense?
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
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Xeliya
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Xeliya on 16/08/2007 17:47:50
Originally by: Vicious Phoenix I'm making no comments about dictors and supercaps, because it is a bit off imo, but as for your first argument, it's poor. Just like dropping a scan probe and warping off and it still works, they warp disruption probe is the same. It's a probe that does it's thing independent of the ship, makes no sense for it to stop if the ship leaves. Also, dictors are far from overpowered. Stationary warp bubble can scram over an area almost 20 times larger than a dictor bubble, so how are dictor bubbles overpowered in that sense?
Stationary bubbles can be shot at and they take time to put up and alot of cargo space, a dictor bubble can be SB'ed but seeing SB range it would be dead by the time someone get's into range.
Probes work after you warp but you cannot scan while warping which I pointed out. So you start a scan and someone finds you and you need to warp you lose your scan.
Originally by: Chi Quan it should be mentioned that MC has the most effective cap fleet in eve and is interested to keep it that way.
btt: consider this: the 'dictor may be able to hold down a much bigger investment, but so can a tackeling frig. and like the frig, the interdictor has no means of dealing marginally adequate damage to his prey.
MC tags mean nothing when I post about balancing in a game I love but some seem to not realize that.
It's not about the ISK it's about how safe they are in terms of holding down anything worth while. A ceptor has to stay on the field, they cannot warp out and come back 2 min later to drop another bubble then rinse and repeat.
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Major Stallion
Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:51:00 -
[11]
i think most of the people replying are missing the point here. Everyones saying "the dictor will get obliterated by the support fleet". If he leaves the grid after dropping a bubble, how exactly is the fleet obliterating him?
Dictor leaves the field after dropping a bubble. Waits for last bubble to expire, comes back, drops another bubble, leaves grid. Rinse and repeat until Said supercap is destroyed. Yeh it sounds really balanced to me.
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Julien Derida
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Xeliya . A ceptor has to stay on the field, they cannot warp out and come back 2 min later to drop another bubble then rinse and repeat.
A ceptor is far, far, better equipped to stay on the field without getting popped.
Sorry Xel, but I deeply disagree with this thread. You already know that though
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Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK |
Xeliya
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:56:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Julien Derida
Originally by: Xeliya . A ceptor has to stay on the field, they cannot warp out and come back 2 min later to drop another bubble then rinse and repeat.
A ceptor is far, far, better equipped to stay on the field without getting popped.
Sorry Xel, but I deeply disagree with this thread. You already know that though
How so, a dictor can go faster, has more firepower and a better tank.
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Julien Derida
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 18:05:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Xeliya
a dictor can go faster
It can?
Quote:
has more firepower
Sure, but its not really relevant.
Quote:
and a better tank.
Perhaps marginally. However, they take a hell of a lot more damage in the first place because they have 3x the sig radius of a ceptor. ----------------------------------------
Chief Inspector of the Style Police - FRICK |
Xeliya
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 18:13:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Xeliya on 16/08/2007 18:15:00
Originally by: Julien Derida
Originally by: Xeliya a dictor can go faster
It can?
Sabre
Originally by: Julien Derida
Quote: has more firepower
Sure, but its not really relevant.
It is when you have tacklers on you.
Originally by: Julien Derida
Quote: and a better tank.
Perhaps marginally. However, they take a hell of a lot more damage in the first place because they have 3x the sig radius of a ceptor.
Sig means nothing when you cannot be tracked or explosion volo is lower then your speed. Standard Sabre setup has 3k shields.
As I said on the MC forums Risk vs Reward as everyone always says. Why should I be solely responsible for holding a faction ship, a fleet or a super cap till they die and have no risk. Teamwork should be required in keeping them there thus I need to get out I let others know that so they can get a bubble up.
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Wicke
Gallente Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 21:54:00 -
[16]
I totally agree with the OP.
No ship in this game is able to do an offensive action and have that action continue when the ship in question has left the grid. Missiles disappear. Drones stop working.
I am fine with dictor bubbles holding down ships as long as the offensive action (launching an immediately active bubble) acts the same as the rest of the ships in the game. This should be fixed ASAP.
I also feel that dictor bubbles stay active for too long. I'd like to see it act like the rest of the 'offensive' weapons on other ships. The bubble should last 30 seconds at most with a skill prolonging the duration. But that is for another thread at another time.
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Tsin'Valha
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Posted - 2007.08.17 01:36:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Tsin''Valha on 17/08/2007 01:37:08 Well, this is what happens when CCP ignores player posts for T2 BS Class Interdictor that fits a high slot Interdiction Generator in one of it's 4 high slots that is the equivalent of a Large Bubble that runs on liquid ozone and strontium.
But, we have EVE where common sense ideas that sound really good are the ones put on the "NEVER PUT INTO EVE" side of the "In Testing/Development" bulletin board. So instead we have some rediculous nos-nerf from out in left field being played with, armor tanking missile spammers that will be speed fit as well, polycarb/aux-thrust rigs that are overpowered, snakes pushing ships never made for speed to ceptor speeds, and a whole slew of other rather idiotic things like the nano-drone boats.
Yes, that dictors are easy to mass produce and throw at capitals to pin them down makes the 30-50 million ship a bit overpowered in that regard alone. A T2 Interdictor Class BS would have been a much better idea with webification capabilities (web bubble - aka: Gravity Mine). Maybe making it impossible to fit more than 1 dictor launcher or decreasing the time the bubble remains in space or WOW, making it possible to destroy the dictor bubble would balance them out.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.17 02:13:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Xeliya Edited by: Xeliya on 16/08/2007 18:21:04
Originally by: Julien Derida
Originally by: Xeliya a dictor can go faster
It can?
Sabre
Now buy same equipement/implants/gangmods for ceptor user and he will go MUCH faster. Its just sabre users tend to use gistii + snake sets, where most ceptor pilots dont. But with same equipement ceptor will be ALWAYS faster.
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Major Stallion
Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.17 05:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire Dictor bubbles are destroyable.
i do hope you're not serious. Dictor bubbles cant be targeted, therefore they cant be destroyed. Mobile Warp Disruptors CAN be destroyed, however.
________________________________ High Sec PvP |
Bein Glorious
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.17 05:20:00 -
[20]
smartbombs |
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Mr Krosis
The humble Crew Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.17 07:03:00 -
[21]
Dictors do have the same rules applied to them as other ships: they can't use their guns, warp disruptors, webbers, or any other modules after they leave grid.
Any other ship can anchor a bubble, and warp away. They don't even need to wait for it to finish anchoring, just deploy, anchor, warp, it will come online while they are away. A dictor is a ship that specializes in deployment of warp disruption spheres, so I don't see much sense in making it less effective at the job than other ships with deployable spheres.
Dictors are some of the most fragile ships in the game, and they still need to go to their target to deploy. Its not like you just pick someones name in local, right click and select "bubble up".
Your comments that a dictor bubble is the only thing that works off grid (once deployed) is incorrect. Covert ops can indeed scan and warp, and have been able to for some months now. Try it out before you say it can't be done.
Interestingly enough, one of the multi-billion isk ships that you're talking about itself can do many things from off grid. You put fighters on a target and it warps, they go after it off grid. You can assign fighters to gang mates while sitting off grid. You can provide gang bonuses to an entire fleet sitting safely off grid in a pos.
How about ECM? An ECM boat can fire off several jammers, then warp off a second later. Those targets stay jammed for the full 20 seconds.
I'm having a very hard time taking the argument that "No ship in this game is able to do an offensive action and have that action continue when the ship in question has left the grid." seriously. Are you guys new to the game or something?
-- Mr Krosis The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
Valandril
Caldari Resurrection R i s e
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Posted - 2007.08.17 07:42:00 -
[22]
Actualy i perfectly understnad OP and i'm signed. No ship in game can do something tho WHOLE enemy fleet and just warpoff/jumpthogate (SIC! they should at least give u aggro) while whole fleet remain tackled. ---
Battlecarriers ! |
Xeliya
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.17 08:13:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Xeliya on 17/08/2007 08:24:51
Originally by: Mr Krosis DAny other ship can anchor a bubble, and warp away. They don't even need to wait for it to finish anchoring, just deploy, anchor, warp, it will come online while they are away.
And that bubble is on every ones overview, lockable and you have 2+ min to get away from it. Not to mention it takes all your cargo hold up.
Originally by: Mr Krosis Dictors are some of the most fragile ships in the game, and they still need to go to their target to deploy. Its not like you just pick someones name in local, right click and select "bubble up".
Not really, they are one of the most primaried ship, but not fragile, you still need to get within the same distance with a scram so the right-click line fails, not to mention you have to stay within NOS/Neut range.
Originally by: Mr Krosis Covert ops can indeed scan and warp, and have been able to for some months now. Try it out before you say it can't be done.
Then they changed that within the last 2 patches, you can always warp to a new spot then start a scan but ifyou warp you won't get the results and you cannot start a scan till you are done warping. I will try it later but I don't remember seeing any patch notes on this.
Originally by: Mr Krosis You put fighters on a target and it warps, they go after it off grid.
I wish they didn't as that is actually a huge downside, I have not seen one kill from my fighters chasing someone since I got a Carrier half a year ago. And it has been though hell and back. Not to mention when they warp off half the time you need to assign them to someone to get them to come back.
Originally by: Mr Krosis You can assign fighters to gang mates while sitting off grid.
Yes but there is someone controlling them and you are giving 100m of you assets to someone to control and you cannot see if they are dieing or not, you are still risking assets for reward. Ever lost a fleet of fighters? If you have you will know the pain it brings. You are also a sitting duck like this. Not to mention CCP has said several times they have reconsidered this idea which TBH would not change much since anyone with half a brain knows assigned fighters usually means lost fighters.
Originally by: Mr Krosis You can provide gang bonuses to an entire fleet sitting safely off grid in a pos.
This is changing if you read dev blogs.
Originally by: Mr Krosis How about ECM? An ECM boat can fire off several jammers, then warp off a second later. Those targets stay jammed for the full 20 seconds.
Bug != Game mechanics and it should be fixed.
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Mr Krosis
The humble Crew Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.17 09:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Xeliya Edited by: Xeliya on 17/08/2007 08:29:52 And that bubble is on every ones overview, lockable and you have 2+ min to get away from it. Not to mention it takes all your cargo hold up.
My point was that making dictor bubbles pop on warp out would make the specialized interdiction ship much less effective than any random ship launching a bubble. Depending on the bubble used, they can be anchored in as little as 60 seconds, and you can fit several in a cargohold. If you opt for the larger bubbles, they can have over 200,000 total hitpoints. A dictor bubble has 1000 HP and can still be popped by smartbombs.
Originally by: Xeliya Not really, they are one of the most primaried ship, but not fragile, you still need to get within the same distance with a scram so the right-click line fails, not to mention you have to stay within NOS/Neut range.
That's exactly my point. They don't have a magical ability to use their weapon from anywhere, they need to get into the thick of it just like anyone else. Dictor warped out on you? Get a point on him.
Originally by: Xeliya Actually you can't, I can fraps it if you want . . . You can warp to a new location then start scanning but you hit warp your scan is canceled.
This has been false for several months. I belive it changed when they introduced the on board scanner, which lacks this ability. It only works with probes. I have done it several times, including about an hour ago to make sure before I posted. The window goes blank if you go into warp, but if you wait for the scan time to finish, you still get a result.
Originally by: Xeliya I wish they didn't as that is actually a huge downside, I have not seen one kill from my fighters chasing someone since I got a Carrier half a year ago. And it has been though hell and back. Not to mention when they warp off half the time you need to assign them to someone to get them to come back.
I didn't say it was a convinient feature, I was merely pointing out the notion that only dictors have an effect off grid, which seems to be the premise of your argument, is false.
Originally by: Xeliya Yes but there is someone controlling them and you are giving 100m of you assets to someone to control and you cannot see if they are dieing or not, you are still risking assets for reward. Ever lost a fleet of fighters? If you have you will know the pain it brings. You are also a sitting duck like this. Not to mention CCP has said several times they have reconsidered this idea which TBH would not change much since anyone with half a brain knows assigned fighters usually means lost fighters.
I've personally seen MC assign fighters many times so don't tell me what a stupid idea it is. Again, I'm not talking about the validity of the tactic, but it is yet another example of having an effect in combat off grid. In fact, with assigned fighters you never even had to go on grid and be subject to the associated risks.
Originally by: Xeliya This is changing if you read dev blogs.
I do read dev blogs. Can you point me to the blog where a dev explicitly states this change is a go and being implemented? The closest thing I saw was 2 lines posted in a thread saying "In the future, it is our hope to make gang bonuses only apply when the assigned gang booster is in the same grid." CCP wants to do a lot of things, and devs have posted a lot of ideas and desires over the years. Until they say it's actually being done, it's not.
Originally by: Xeliya Bug != Game mechanics and it should be fixed.
Can you link me to the bug report? It's worked this way as long as I've played. Every other EW works differently. I can only assume it's working as intended, or it would have changed long ago.
If you don't like being bubbled after the person dropping it warps off, that's fine, you're entitled to an opinion. I'm only pointing out the flaw in your logic that it needs to change because dictors are the only things that can have an effect while off grid. They're not.
-- Mr Krosis The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
Mr Krosis
The humble Crew Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.17 09:27:00 -
[25]
Also, I do agree that things in warp when a bubble goes up should have their warp canceled. I am not opposed to having a bubble launch trigger an aggression flag for docking/gate jump purposes either.
I don't think CCP is really opposed to these things. It may be a technical obstacle more than a balance one. I would imagine more so for the canceling warp than the aggression but I'm not a CCP developer.
-- Mr Krosis The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge. |
Lady Caeser
Open Fist of Castallus
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Posted - 2007.08.17 09:49:00 -
[26]
Epic whine?
No don't nerf dictors. You fail.
Xeliya I expect more from you...
And making gang bonus only work on-grid
WTF.. we want more lag now huh?
The interdictor isnt what kills you, it just stops you from running, if you put your ships on the line, then there should be a way to keep you there, a t1 frigate can tackle a carrier or dread quite effectively, at takes a t2 destroyer to catch a supercap. Seems quite balanced to me.
If you don't want to die, have a proper gang with decent tactics, not just "OH WOW I SPENT BILLIONS ON THIS SHIP NOW I GET TO KEEEL YOU ALL FOR FREEE YAHH" thats dumbness. -------------------------------------- What are you looking at? -------------------------------------- |
Callthetruth
Caldari Drunken Ratbags Inc New Eve Order
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Posted - 2007.08.17 09:55:00 -
[27]
dictors are only a problem if u lack sufficent support to take em out use youre afs, interceptors and HACs to take down any hostile dictors before they can bubble youre supercaps, a 50 man fleet of super caps and no small ship support deserves to get omgwtfbbq
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Jai Cee
Quam Singulari M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.08.17 21:17:00 -
[28]
I'm sorry but I deeply disagree here, dictors are a big SP investment and if you're in a super cap and get pinned down by one dictor you are either alone without support or shouldn't be flying that ship in the first place. To really hold a super cap in place you need multiple dictors because unless you are incredibly lucky you will not be able to repeatedly pop down dictor bubbles outside of smartbomb range but in scramble range whilst you have EVERY ship calling you primary. At a conservative estimate you would need 4 dictor pilots and assuming they fly sabres thats something like 200M isk of ships plus 4 very highly skilled pilots vs a 30bill ship. That seems to compare pretty well to a 500k T1 frig being able to hold down a 150M isk BS.
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Miss KillSome
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.08.18 08:00:00 -
[29]
/signed for OP..
I see dictors overpowered too..Bubbles should collapse if ship leaves the grid.
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InnerDrive
Black Lance oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2007.08.18 10:05:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Chi Quan it should be mentioned that MC has the most effective cap fleet in eve and is interested to keep it that way.
btt: consider this: the 'dictor may be able to hold down a much bigger investment, but so can a tackeling frig. and like the frig, the interdictor has no means of dealing marginally adequate damage to his prey.
I agree with this statement , this post is no more than MC crying about losing super caps :D
Get some more numbers , get some more support instead of all flying caps :D
Dictors are fine, in fact i think sabres are way overpriced.
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