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Athyrial
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Posted - 2007.08.17 01:00:00 -
[1]
Just wondering how many marketers/producers acutally think about what there doing with their buy/sell orders. Because for the most part it seems like the blind leading the stupid.
This applies for T1 and especially T2 (and I'm talking about producer quantities here)
Say you build 100 units of T2 item X which is currently Lowest SELL of 3mil and a highest BUY of 2.6mil.
So naturally 99% people drop in at 2999999.99 to get the lowest bid. Logical you get bought first for the most without waiting. Logically next seller to check thier bid see his gear aint the lowest anymore and drops in at 2999999.98, again fine.
BUT WHAT THE HELL does going to 2950000 achieve ? apart from losing everyone potential isk your not guaranteeing you'll be the lowest for longer as its only 49,999isk difference someone will then drop in at 2949999. what changed ? nothing your goods spent no more time as the lowest and you simply DRIVE DOWN THE PRICE, unless your serious about a price which would invlove going in at 2.7mil or 2.65mil which would probably stop many seller from undercutting you. Your not doing yourself a favour in fact your probably making things worse as incremental decreases will drive down a price further because its done in little steps. Its like a house going up for auction on a $300'000 house going against somone by $1'000 increments means your both only ever thinking its only 1'000 more so you drive the price up for each other, the smart auctioneer bid 15'000 when this nonsense starts and shocks the 1'000 into submission becuase the next bid is 15,000, although they would probably quite happliy bid 20'000 more in 1'000 incrments.
In fact the real benefiters are the day traders who watch the increment drive down then buyup all order below average put them back up at higher price and reset the incremental decrease pocketing the difference all the way.
In short undercut by 1isk or at least 20% otherwise your simply doing yourself out of isk in the long run.
Oh and dont even get me started on low turnover items. PEOPLE if an item is low turn over (LOOK MARKET STATISTICS) dropping your price will not increase the turnover rate you simple make less when someone finally decides to buy. here 1isk is your friend.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.08.17 01:05:00 -
[2]
Welcome to Capitalism.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Vincenzo Delloro
Amarr Lux et Veritas
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Posted - 2007.08.17 01:10:00 -
[3]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt Welcome to Capitalism.
QFT
People dropping prices by any increment they like is what is supposed to happen. If they're still making a profit from the item at that price, then they'll keep doing it and everyone else will have to follow suit if they want to compete. If they're not making a profit, they'll lose money and eventually the price will return to previous levels.
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Meleil
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Posted - 2007.08.17 01:10:00 -
[4]
It's called crushing the opposition and driving them out of the market. If you can afford to lose a little isk to gain a lot then do it. By far the best thing in the end. ~Mel
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judes23
Griffin Empire Ultio Animi Causa
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Posted - 2007.08.17 01:11:00 -
[5]
i know what u mean. people just dont want to pay lots of isk for things.so naturaly there goign to pick the 500k seller than the 510k isk seller.
and the funny thing is, in the long run, there cutting there own throats.. cuz all the prices are going to do 2 things, either go up, or go down, and for the bigger stuff like capital stuff is going to double
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BritishInvader
Amarr Leela's Lamas
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Posted - 2007.08.17 01:13:00 -
[6]
whine thread is whine -----+----- Mailing List: Eve Art Store Orders Channel: Eve Art Store
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RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.08.17 01:25:00 -
[7]
Remember that not everyone is doing price wars(tm). Some people are actually dumping excess stock or bad deals. Thats why the market will frequently drop below cost on a lot of items. On the the t1 and named stuff you have a lot of people who are not interested in anything but quick isk, since they shot the stuff off someone's ship (to some extent this is true for t2). Your analysis of the market had a clue but it wasn't complete because you didn't factor in these acessory motivations to trade, which happen in the real world too.
Oh, and some are actually makeing long term grabs for a commodity market and are attempting to slay the competition. This happens in real life too. Coca Cola is known for setting up factories and selling at a loss in some regions where they see a potential competitor with good sales. That happens in eve too. It would not be as bad if ccp hadn't given the t2 mafia money printing machines for so long, which made a lot of people richer than they otherwise would have been. That said this sort of thing is the mechanics of capitalism, and has been predicted since the days of Karl Marx
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.17 01:27:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Athyrial
In short undercut by 1isk or at least 20% otherwise your simply doing yourself out of isk in the long run.
20% - what a nice arbitrary figure you've flucked out the air there...
I like undercutting the 1-isk undercutters by chunks just so I can read about the pools of tears it creates
- Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas |
Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.08.17 02:45:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Frug on 17/08/2007 02:45:27 When I put up a single order of any kind in a station, and someone goes and ups or downs it by .01 isk, I get annoyed. Usually I'm not selling or buying very many, and I rarely go beyond the station I operate in for buy orders. Yet someone throughout the region will often up me just to snag my station as well.
So I up the price by a few thousand. If you want to waste my time logging in ever 10 mins to check the price and up me by a penny, i'm going to cost you isk. Sometimes it makes people give up.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
syphurous
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.17 03:05:00 -
[10]
I hate the items for less than 50% their value that are 15 jumps away ( or in a highsec pocket out in low sec ) and locally everyone starts to emulate that cost and undercut them thus killing a local market profit.
I've watched items ( best named ) I've sold for 8 million going for 500k in a trade hubs becuase someone jumps away in no mans land set his price at some stupidily cost to attract n00bs / morons into a low sec region.
Odds wise your more likely to get more sales if you equal the cost of the lowest. ___
Too Many Anchored Cans |
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive Animal.
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Posted - 2007.08.17 05:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: syphurous I hate the items for less than 50% their value that are 15 jumps away ( or in a highsec pocket out in low sec ) and locally everyone starts to emulate that cost and undercut them thus killing a local market profit.
That's frequently a trap laid by resellers. When dozy people try to compete with the remote low-priced order, resellers buy up the slack product and relist it at the true market price.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.17 05:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss I like undercutting the 1-isk undercutters by chunks just so I can read about the pools of tears it creates
------------------
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Goonswarmalwayslose
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Posted - 2007.08.17 05:20:00 -
[13]
supply and demand. You beat your competition with lower prices. Your items will never sell if you arent number one in jita ^^.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.08.17 05:28:00 -
[14]
actully, I think it about it a lot. our corp has a team of 10 people with high trading skills for making isk through maxing profits. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Quote: Why didn't we use them 80 man-years to fix bugs?
Well, that's simple. We can't. These are visual ar |
Draken Hunt
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.17 05:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss stuff... Originally by: Athyrial
...stuff...
20% - what a nice arbitrary figure you've flucked out the air there...
Maybe I am just tired, but did he say flucked, or... Surely it would have been snipped if he had said what I though he said.
And yes, the market driven economy is not concerned with bruised egos, and is every bit as agressive as an armed rail gun.
Hold on... OH JOY, I can say flucked!!!
Flucked Flucked Flucked....
*SNIP-Your signature is far too graphic. It is unfit for public forums, and your mother would be ashamed to know you even thought about this filth. |
Scipio Divinitus
Minmatar Black Star Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.17 05:50:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Scipio Divinitus on 17/08/2007 05:52:46 Why go to 2950000? 1) Hurts the competition as well as you. 2) Challenges them to drop the price. Its very possible they will wait until you are bought out. 3) Can be a move to drop the overall price of an item for your own purposes (like getting it low enough to refine it for profit). 4) I like to screw over the .01 isk'ers. 5) I still make a profit.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.08.17 06:03:00 -
[17]
I picked a load of crud out of some poor saps hauler wreck and i want to shift it quickly without haveing some station bound market ***** dropping the price by 0.1 isk every 5 seconds.
SKUNK
Originally by: Jeximo I also like how your cat only managed to hit the enter button when he/she jumped on your keyboard.
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Caia
Gallente Scrutari The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2007.08.17 06:28:00 -
[18]
Quote: BUT WHAT THE HELL does going to 2950000 achieve ? apart from losing everyone potential isk your not guaranteeing you'll be the lowest for longer as its only 49,999isk difference someone will then drop in at 2949999. what changed ?
Easy. It scares the heck out of other people selling the same thing. They think, "OMG! OMG! what the hell is she doing?! Should I drop my price in order to undercut her? What if she does it again?! OMG! The sky is falling!"
Do that once or twice and it scares off a LOT of competition. And I actually end up gaining cash over time. Let's say I get an hour before someone undercut me if I do it your way. Well, in that hours time I sell 10 units. That's it. Until I check again and re-undercut, I get NO money. But if I do it my way, much fewer people undercut me and I sell units for hours or days without ever having to check on them again. So, now I'm making less money per unit, but much much MORE money over the same time frame. Simplified version, but that's the gist of it.
And after all the competition goes elsewhere I raise prices up ABOVE what they were before. At least until someone starts competeing with me again. Then we go back through this process.
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Hakar Kerarmor
Gallente Arctic Productions
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Posted - 2007.08.17 06:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: syphurous I hate the items for less than 50% their value that are 15 jumps away ( or in a highsec pocket out in low sec ) and locally everyone starts to emulate that cost and undercut them thus killing a local market profit.
That's frequently a trap laid by resellers. When dozy people try to compete with the remote low-priced order, resellers buy up the slack product and relist it at the true market price.
I always ignore orders more than 5 jumps away when pricing my items, on the basis that people buying the modules wouldn't want to fly very far anyway.
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Lady Beauvoir
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Posted - 2007.08.17 07:00:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Lady Beauvoir on 17/08/2007 07:01:06 I think that the OP understands the idea of dropping the price drastically to drive away the competition. But I'm just as amazed why some people would choose to lower the price more than 1 ISK but on the same time lower it too little that it is has no effect whatsoever on anyone's profit margins:
for example, if the item costs 3 million, would you drop the price to 2950000? How many potential sellers do you think that would drive away? That is, after all, a whopping 1,7% drop in sell price, even if you do it twice. Dropping the price that little won't drive away the competition (or, at least it won't drive away me), dropping it 5% or more at a time might make them (and me) consider moving my stock elsewhere or waiting it out.
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Marux
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Posted - 2007.08.17 07:12:00 -
[21]
Too be honest if it comes down to a choice between buying an item(s) for 1,000,000 ISK or 999,999.99 ISK I will choose the higher one because i despise people who underbid for .1 ISK.
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mowly
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Posted - 2007.08.17 07:26:00 -
[22]
For me it is just funny to c, how people set buy-orders for ammo at 0,1 ISK, while they sell it at 14 ISK or whatever (sorry, i am newb, and yes, i buy such cheap ammo :D ). Since i saw that, i just collect all that ammo in a station, and once i collected more than 5.000 i make sell-orders arround -5 % of regional cut. It is no extra work, instead of selling it, i collect it. Anyway, if u don't like how people make sell-orders, just don't buy from them, and support them from who u think who is it doing well. You, the topiccreater, are far away from real-life thinking. Is there actually the possibility to see who does certain sell-orders? Since I would like to have first-choice suppliers with pleasure for certain things.
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Dyison
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Posted - 2007.08.17 08:02:00 -
[23]
The OP's error was to assume that people act perfectly rationally within an economic system. This is a holdover from classical economics and the enlightenment which is more and more under fire from modern research.
The current model that most economists use is a concept of Bounded Rationality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounded_rationality (WIKIPEDIA = WIN) People don't make rational choices, but rather "rationalized" choices via heuristic devices.
Also read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics , it will sort you out.
I agree with the frustration, but really your expectations of people are excessively high.
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Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.17 08:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Draken Hunt
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss stuff... Originally by: Athyrial
...stuff...
20% - what a nice arbitrary figure you've flucked out the air there...
Maybe I am just tired, but did he say flucked, or... Surely it would have been snipped if he had said what I though he said.
And yes, the market driven economy is not concerned with bruised egos, and is every bit as agressive as an armed rail gun.
Hold on... OH JOY, I can say flucked!!!
Flucked Flucked Flucked....
- Erm...honestly a genuine typo. Should have been 'Plucked'...I'm happy I've provided a new word you enjoy so much though...hehe
Can wait to see COAD getting all Flucked Up.
- Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas |
Pac SubCom
A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.08.17 08:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Marux Too be honest if it comes down to a choice between buying an item(s) for 1,000,000 ISK or 999,999.99 ISK I will choose the higher one because i despise people who underbid for .1 ISK.
Me too. I don't reward such behaviour. I always try to take the higher price. The reason they do is easily found, but I hope more people do what we do. --------------- ∞ TQFE
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.17 09:11:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Pac SubCom
Originally by: Marux Too be honest if it comes down to a choice between buying an item(s) for 1,000,000 ISK or 999,999.99 ISK I will choose the higher one because i despise people who underbid for .1 ISK.
Me too. I don't reward such behaviour. I always try to take the higher price. The reason they do is easily found, but I hope more people do what we do.
It don't work. If you buy in the same station you always buy for the lowest seller. It was done to avoid money launderyng operations from isk sellers.
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Kira Ai
Essence Technologies Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.08.17 09:18:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Kira Ai on 17/08/2007 09:18:45
Originally by: Pac SubCom
Originally by: Marux Too be honest if it comes down to a choice between buying an item(s) for 1,000,000 ISK or 999,999.99 ISK I will choose the higher one because i despise people who underbid for .1 ISK.
Me too. I don't reward such behaviour. I always try to take the higher price. The reason they do is easily found, but I hope more people do what we do.
Hehe I love people like you. Punishing us undercutters by buying from higher sell orders. What you do not realize is the fact, that undercutter still gets the sale, but you pay him more than he requested.
So for all us undercutters, thank you for extra ISK you keep sending us!
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.08.17 12:08:00 -
[28]
there is never enough whines about carebear pvp so tell us more ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn |
Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2007.08.17 12:19:00 -
[29]
With tech 2 items, supply is significantly affected by price.
So if you have a lot of something to unload (after a run of successful invention jobs), you dont want too many other people thinking 'this has a high price, I'll invent more of them'.
Plus, I find it easier to think about a price with only 3 or 4 most significant digits, rather than undercutting by 1 isk and having a bunch of 9's.
If you dont like it, go look for a different market.
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Mallick
Northern Intelligence Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.08.17 12:19:00 -
[30]
CCP should make it so that you can only alter prices once per market order per hour. That will limit some of the stupid overbidding and overcutting.
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