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Leighanne
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Posted - 2007.08.17 01:55:00 -
[1]
Whenever I see sell orders ..or when I sell something or when I'm looking to buy something one thing I notice about this game is the lack of "economies of scale".
Building one Raven is the same as build 30 Raven's from the same print. There are not Economies of scale as far as I can see.
By this I mean if you build 30 Ravens all at the same time from the same BPC/BPO each one has its own wastage factor and its own mineral cost etc etc.
What I would love to see is economies of scale being introduced into the game - for example if you build 30 Ravens all from the same print the 'waste' which you don't use because the print is not prefectly researched or your Production efficiency is not 100% or for any other reasons what would cause 'waste' minerals or components of any kind - that those waste products would be 'carried over' and can be used in the next build simply because everything is on the same production line.
This also means that if you are a large scale producer of things then you can either cut your costs and therefore reducce your prices by making large runs of items or cuts your costs and increase your profit from making large runs of items.
Subsequently this would lead into people buying in bulk actually being able to recieve a discount if they buy all 30 Ravens at once instead of buying them one at a time. So while it would be more expensive initally to buy 30 Ravens all at once it would be cheaper per ship - but not necessarily by a lot.
I would love to see something like a 0.1% decrease in mineral requirements for building all modules per module built. If you were say building 30 Ravens at once then the total mineral requirement for building all 30 would be reduced by 3% - personally I don't think that give a 'HUGE' boost to manufacturers but you may disagree and think it needs to be higher or lower depending on your stand point.
I think this could be a good thing as theoretically it will increase the demand for large quantities of minerals all at the same time as people will want to build as many of each item all at the same time if they are industrialists. Which in turn means that more combat orientated people will be able to buy either 'in bulk' or from those people who sell singles hopefully at a lower price - therefore making at least T1 ships and possibly modules cheaper. T2 ships and modules will probably not change too much in price since through invention you only get a certain number of runs anyways.
It should also decrease the price of ships because there will probably end up being a large number of each ship on the market simply because it is cheaper for builders to produce them in large quantities.
The trade off with this is of course that people who can build huge amounts of items may build so many that their wastage and hence final mineral cost is reduced to extreme limits. eg: 500 Ravens from one BPO/BPC is not out of reach for some of the larger alliances which would theoretically result in a reducion in cost of 50% - 1000 Ravens = 100% etc. Therefore there should be a cap put on the amount of reduction you can achieve - I would propose 30% or possibly the 'perfect' ME mineral usage amount. Since 'perfect' is almost unobtainable but able to get close to - if they reduced 'perfect' by a small amount and set that as the limit I think it would work well.
I don't even think this would require a new skill as there are already skills in game that reduce wastage factors per run you do.
Now I can see some issues with this and I'd be more then happy for you to point them out.
The question basically (for those too lazy to read) is: Would Eve as a whole - both PVP and Industrial - benefit from having Economies of Scale introduced?
/me runs to hide inside his flame proof bunker.
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Daedalus DuGalle
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2007.08.17 02:07:00 -
[2]
The counter-argument is the rich producers who can afford to build 30 ravens at a time will be able to do so cheaper, and hence will cause the divide between big producers and small producers to widen. In effect you're making it harder for newer producers/players to enter the market.
I'm guessing there's no economies of scale for game balance reasons, although I agree it would be very cool to have and would present interesting new problems for would-be producers to solve. But if was ever implemented the whines....oh the whines...
Originally by: Janu Hull Nothing says gritty cynicism like a 1 ISK note wedged between a pair of silicone enhanced knockers.
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Leighanne
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Posted - 2007.08.17 02:43:00 -
[3]
Theoretically yes - it would allow the 'big guys' to stamp on the 'little guys' and I can see this as being a problem.
I don't have a solutiong to this except that at least the new players should be able to buy ships at a cheaper price because the 'big guys' are mass producing them for less. IMO this kinda of evens it out - so even if your a new industrial player starting out you might have to work a bit harder to find someone willing to buy your 'Raven' perhaps not just in jita.
Yes I think that is a valid issue - no I can't right now think of a solution to it.
If anyone else can or come up with a reason why we shouldn't care in the first place - please post.
Thanks for the Replies.
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2007.08.17 09:07:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 17/08/2007 09:09:45 As an industrialist, I like the concept. I'd cap it at 3-5%, enough to make a difference in our bottom line but not enough to seriously shift ship pricing. Only problem is that with symmetrical build refine I you can build for under perfect and get more back when you refine. But there should be some reward to me banking on the mineral/ship markets to remain the same for the next few weeks as I crank out 50+ ships at a run.
Here's an idea, increase the 'effective ME/PE' of the print by something dependent on the number of runs, BUT the maximum benefit you can get is an 'effective ME/PE' of 1.5x your current ME/PE.
I think that SQRT(Runs) would be a pretty decent base formula, needs tweaking though. Gives good benefit to longer runs, but not obscene benefits to 1000 runs. I think you might want to make it Runs -10 or something, you want these to be in LARGE quantities.
This nets: 1-3 Runs +1 ME/PE 4-8 Runs +2 ME/PE 1-15 Runs +3 ME/PE 16-24 Runs +4 ME/PE ...
Edit: Btw, this probably belongs in Features and Ideas Discussion -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.17 09:31:00 -
[5]
You already have a you "economy of scale", where it really is even in RL: in the logistic section.
If you build all your Raven in the same location and sell them there, you reduce your transportation cost, as you only need to transport minerals there and don't need to move the Ravens away (or if you want to sell them somewere else you will move them in one batch). So you will use 1 larger ship with 1 pilot to move the minerals/final product instead of 10.
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Leighanne
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Posted - 2007.08.17 12:47:00 -
[6]
Economies of scale do occur in this game in the area of logistics to .. some extend I suppose. However making one car IRL is MUCH more expensive then setting up a production line to make 100,000,000 cars IRL (per unit cost anyways).
This is what I am getting at.
Yes I think between 3-5% is a reasonable amount and Yes I like the forumula you have proposed and its reason. Enough to make 'a' difference but not enough to significantly alter ship prices.
Any more comments/Ideas?
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Agor Dirdonen
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Posted - 2007.08.17 16:09:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 17/08/2007 16:09:22 You do have an isk benefit with large manufacturing jobs instead of doing 1 job multiple times....
installation cost for the job only has to be paid once.
Granted, it's only 1k or so but you can't admit that it isn't there
*Agor Dirdonen runs away fast
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Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive Animal.
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Posted - 2007.08.17 16:15:00 -
[8]
If you build your stuff at a POS, you gain advantages over someone building at an NPC station.
This amounts to economies of scale, because you need to judge whether the profits of repeat building will more than offset the cost of the POS and other kit.
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Katashi Ishizuka
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Posted - 2007.08.17 16:25:00 -
[9]
I will support this when CCP figures out how to implement production possibility frontiers.
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