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Professor Bunsen
Optech Scientific
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Posted - 2007.08.28 08:09:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Professor Bunsen on 28/08/2007 08:09:54 Edited by: Professor Bunsen on 28/08/2007 08:09:31 I've read the EULA carefully, particularly
Quote: You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
As its currrently written the EULA does not seem to bar automatic extraction of data from the game(i.e. by another program or macro).
CCP in fact make the "download market data" button available, which seems to imply tacit encouragement to download market data and process it in 3rd party apps.
There seems little difference in this to aquiring in game data through the API, insofar as what is extracted is information only. However the data is market data in this case and may be considered "not for download" (in which case why the download buttton?).
I guess theres a number of possibilities :
1. Automated download of market data is OK. 2. Automated download of market data is not OK, in which case the EULA should be amended to reflect that (=/- download button removed)
It's clearly for CCP to decide on, but as players do you consider that there's ambiguity as it stands? Optech Scientific Data Feed |
Sunset Atrea
Minmatar Sunset Asset Management
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Posted - 2007.08.28 09:50:00 -
[2]
Logging in, sitting AFK and using a macro to extract data is against the EULA.
Logging in, and extracting the data manually isn't.
To be honest I cannot see how CCP would be able to tell is someone was AFK and manually dumping the data, or if it was indeed a macro. You could (fairly easily i'd guess) set up a macro with a random timer (60mins +- a random number up to 12 mins or so?) to extract the data. I could easily set an alarm at home and go to my PC every hour and press the button without moving my mouse at all.
CCP will decide that it is against the EULA as automation has been incorporated through the use of a 3rd party program. |
Tactus
the Organ Grinder and Company
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Posted - 2007.08.28 09:52:00 -
[3]
key phrase is "facilitate acquisition of [whatever]."
pulling market data for use out-of-game (e.g. in experimental economics like our live-in economist) is probably cool, unless it's counter-indicated by another section of the EULA.
the second you act in-game on knowledge gleaned from macro-ed market exports, it's a EULA violation.
community-based efforts such as eve-central have been included in "ordinary Game play" to date.
the api is only able to pull personal data, not global data. it does not infringe on the "accelerated rate" stipulation because of this distinction; the api can tell me nothing i shouldn't already know. ________________________________________________
Originally by: Raivi ...but if spending all your imaginary money on an imaginary spaceship with a camo paintjob is wrong then I don't want to be right. |
Professor Bunsen
Optech Scientific
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:40:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Professor Bunsen on 28/08/2007 12:46:57 It seems people are making a distinction between automated aquisition of API data (training, wallet, journal etc.) and automated aquisition of market data.
The automation bit is the same surely its just the data type that's different. In neither case is any Quote: acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play
happening, but the data type and source is different.
Quote: the second you act in-game on knowledge gleaned from macro-ed market exports, it's a EULA violation.
The EULA doesnt actually say that. Remember that every 3rd party app using the API draws data from the game and automatically processes it to give an information advantage to the user, everything from EveMon to the various wallet apps being written. You can't therefore say that its automated aquisition of data thats the problem, or the automated processing of such data, every API app does that. Its not even acting on it, otherwise there would be no point in using an API app.
If its forbidden it can only be a distinction made in the data type extracted. I can happily live with that if that turns out to be the ruling, but if market data were to be considered a different case I would argue that the eula should state that "extraction of game data other than via the API is prohibited". Currently it doesn't. Optech Scientific Data Feed |
SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:59:00 -
[5]
Edited by: SencneS on 28/08/2007 12:59:51
Quote: You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
I've highlighted the words that make it against EULA to use a macro for Market data.
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And that's my 2 ISK |
Okaii
Kiki's Delivery Service
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:04:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Professor Bunsen As its currrently written the EULA does not seem to bar automatic extraction of data from the game(i.e. by another program or macro).
I agree. The EULA does not expressly forbid the extraction of data (unless information is rather inelegantly lumped in with 'items' or 'object').
Originally by: Professor Bunsen CCP in fact make the "download market data" button available, which seems to tacitly encourage download of market data and processing in 3rd party apps.
I disagree. I agree it encourages processing in 3rd party apps, but I don't see how a button tacitly encourages writing a macro to press it! Following that logic macromining is tacitly encouraged because there is an activate mining laser button.
Originally by: Professor Bunsen There seems little difference in this to aquiring in game data through the API, insofar as what is extracted is information only. However the data is market data in this case and may be considered "not for download" (in which case why the download buttton?).
The impression I get from CCP is that they want to encourage high level economic play - which inevitably means using out of game data processing - but they still want people 'playing' their game. Not just setting the macro market scrapers off and autopiloting the computer determined optimum trade route. I realise that 'Playing' the game in this case doesn't mean much (having an open copy of the client and pressing the download button every few minutes) but it is still distinct from having the machine do it for you.
I'm not suggesting that's what you are intending to do (I realise this is probably to do with your mineral index project). But once the door is opened to these kind of things it will be pushed to the limit. Perhaps not by you, but by others certainly.
Originally by: Professor Bunsen
I guess theres a number of possibilities :
1. Automated download of market data is OK. 2. Automated download of market data is not OK, in which case the EULA should be amended to reflect that (=/- download button removed)
It's clearly for CCP to decide on, but as players do you consider that there's ambiguity as it stands?
My personal take is that number 2 applies. As above I don't see how the presence of a button encourages macroing, but certainly the EULA could be clarified.
Okaii
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Okaii
Kiki's Delivery Service
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Professor Bunsen
The EULA doesnt actually say that. Remember that every 3rd party app using the API draws data from the game and automatically processes it to give an information advantage to the user, everything from EveMon to the various wallet apps being written. You can't therefore say that its automated aquisition of data thats the problem, or the automated processing of such data, every API app does that. Its not even acting on it, otherwise there would be no point in using an API app.
The point (and I think in your heart you realise this!) is that the data available in the API has been expressly made available. Market data hasn't - hence the fact that you will need a macro to extract it.
It's all just 'data' as you say, but in the first case CCP have explicitly said it's OK to have it. In the second case they have not, and, even if only by omission , I would suggest that not including market data in the API implies CCP expressly doesn't want you to have automatic access to that data.
I still agree with you that the EULA could be ammended to include acquisition of information by 3rd party programs, but I think the spirit of it is quite clear.
Okaii
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Pirlouit
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.08.29 20:29:00 -
[8]
If you feel unsure about an issue regarding the EULA, please file a petition in the appropriate heading and get an official CCP response about it. - Pirlouit.
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