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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Nabar Phargal
Gallente Anqara Expeditions The OSS
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Posted - 2007.09.05 13:39:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Where did you get the impression that I want them to sell them?
This: Quote: impossible to acquire unless you shut down your brain and take a huge loss
The only way you come out of the deal with less net worth is if you buy the item and sell it for less. If you buy the item and keep the item, the only way you come out behind is if you value the item at less than the purchase price. In that case, why did you buy the item? I already said that once. Do I need to repeat it again?
Quote: But the tag requirements are such that they simply ARE NOT WORTH it. It is not something that I think, it is a fact
Sorry, it's not a fact. Still just an opinion. Personally, I don't think 3/4 of the Caldari offers are worth going after (including some BS mods). Still, people like this cannot be swayed (I wonder if they got it?)
How common should these mods be? Should every fifth frigate have one? 1/10 of the command ships in existence? If I missed a dev comment about it, please point me in the right direction.
Trained chimpanzee? Fair enough. I've been thinking you were a half-wit. The other factions with mods have been living with this issue for a couple of months, yet you throw up a post like it's something new. I have to admit I found your ignorance funny. I'm a horrible person. Of course, I'm also a horrible person with a simply insane 655 Republic Fleet Captain tags (all obtained in the last month). |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.09.05 14:42:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Nabar Phargal
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Where did you get the impression that I want them to sell them?
This: Quote: impossible to acquire unless you shut down your brain and take a huge loss
The only way you come out of the deal with less net worth is if you buy the item and sell it for less. If you buy the item and keep the item, the only way you come out behind is if you value the item at less than the purchase price. In that case, why did you buy the item? I already said that once. Do I need to repeat it again?
OKOK, taking a loss was probably bad wording. Virtually burning your isk is more like it.
Quote:
Quote: But the tag requirements are such that they simply ARE NOT WORTH it. It is not something that I think, it is a fact
Sorry, it's not a fact. Still just an opinion. Personally, I don't think 3/4 of the Caldari offers are worth going after (including some BS mods). Still, people like this cannot be swayed (I wonder if they got it?)
How common should these mods be? Should every fifth frigate have one? 1/10 of the command ships in existence? If I missed a dev comment about it, please point me in the right direction.
Trained chimpanzee? Fair enough. I've been thinking you were a half-wit. The other factions with mods have been living with this issue for a couple of months, yet you throw up a post like it's something new. I have to admit I found your ignorance funny. I'm a horrible person. Of course, I'm also a horrible person with a simply insane 655 Republic Fleet Captain tags (all obtained in the last month).
How common should they be? Well, to a simpleton like me they should simply be about as common as their same stat pirate faction versions are. I guess you disagree with me and prefer them to be as common as Estamels Invul... And I only really notice this now because never before was I interested in mods from the LP shop for personal use, so far I only used it as cash cow to BUY the mods I need. And usually what I bought was the much easier to obtain pirate equivalent. But since there do not seem to be any pirate HAMLs dropping...
Maybe I should start farming what few anti minmatar missions I get, but otoh by the time I have enough tags, I will have skill for T2 HAMLs and won't even need the Khanid ones so meh...
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.09.05 21:20:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Nabar Phargal
How common should these mods be? Should every fifth frigate have one? 1/10 of the command ships in existence? If I missed a dev comment about it, please point me in the right direction.
I think that frigate modules should be more common than cruiser modules which in turn should be more common than battleship modules. The exact ratios? That's harder to say but maybe somewhere around 4-2-1 frigate-cruiser-bs ratio seems a good like a good start to me.
And if you look at lp and isk price for the mods it seems CCP agrees with this (woe not that exact ratio), frigate size modules cost both less lp and less isk than cruiser which cost less than bs sized. BUT then there is the tags and suddenly because of the screwed drop rates of those instead of a 4-2-1 ratio or even a 1-1-1 ratio you get a 1-10-100 ratio.
Do you REALLY think battleship sized faction mods should be 100 times more common than frigate sized faction mods? ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Toria Nynys
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.09.06 05:35:00 -
[34]
If you look at faction ship offers, a frigate is 40,000 LP, the cruiser 120,000 and the battleship 500,000 (using BPC prices). That's a cost ratio of 1 - 3 - 12. While that doesn't make a huge amount of sense from the standpoint of "by the time you have enough LP to afford it you've outgrown the ship" it is valid from the standpoint of ships with more killing & tanking power costing more.
The increased cost of smaller modules (purely as a result of tag availability) is nuts. No faction fitted frigate is going to be as effective as a faction fitted cruiser in PvE or PvP, and it certainly isn't going to be a battleship equivalent. And yet, you can buy a faction weapon fitted battleship (including hull cost) for the price of one small or medium faction weapon.
This is made even more silly by the fact that it's trivial to meet tech2 small weapon requirements. And the faction weapons aren't THAT much better.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try
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Posted - 2007.09.06 10:02:00 -
[35]
I've tried to farm some RF cruiser/frig tags, but only get them with lvl 3 agents. Lvl 4's just dropped all that faction warfare things.
First, only few mission are bout RF. 2nd, there aren't all that many ship in the missions.
So, it will probably take me close to a year to get the tags for just 1 MAR. (been trying the past week, and only had 1 RF mission with 2 agenst).
I would really like to have RF missions reintroduced to lvl 4's... but i guess I'll have to wait till Faction Warfare hits.
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2007.09.06 10:28:00 -
[36]
Faction ship offers will probably be re-examined at some point - they weren't changed at all for the LP Store, so I wouldn't expect them to reflect any patterns.
When it comes to tags, if you go by the NPC base price the tags for frigate modules should cost noticably less than the tags for battleship modules. The problem is, of course, rarity, which pushes the price up. We are still watching this and changes may come, but personally I'd prefer an increased tag supply (especially for low-end tags) to decreased requirements.
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WrathchildeVOTF
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Posted - 2007.09.06 12:21:00 -
[37]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale Faction ship offers will probably be re-examined at some point - they weren't changed at all for the LP Store, so I wouldn't expect them to reflect any patterns.
When it comes to tags, if you go by the NPC base price the tags for frigate modules should cost noticably less than the tags for battleship modules. The problem is, of course, rarity, which pushes the price up. We are still watching this and changes may come, but personally I'd prefer an increased tag supply (especially for low-end tags) to decreased requirements.
I would also preferr increased supply of tage over reduced requirements, but your own game design is now working against you (need for speed), as the total amount of ships in these missions is being reduced due to lag.
This is an issue that needs to be fully reviewed. It may be that you need to both reduce req's, and increase drop rates.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.09.06 12:49:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Hoshi on 06/09/2007 12:49:33
Originally by: CCP Greyscale Faction ship offers will probably be re-examined at some point - they weren't changed at all for the LP Store, so I wouldn't expect them to reflect any patterns.
When it comes to tags, if you go by the NPC base price the tags for frigate modules should cost noticably less than t he tags for battleship modules. The problem is, of course, rarity, which pushes the price up. We are still watching this and changes may come, but personally I'd prefer an increased tag supply (especially for low-end tags) to decreased requirements.
You need to check those numbers Grayscale. Using base price the value of the tags needed for a Amarr Navy Large Armor Repair is 14.05m while the value of the tags needed for a Amarr Navy Small Armor Repair is 17.275m.
To bring the tag cost inline with lp and isk cost (using base price) the tag requierment for a small armor rep should be cut in half. That will give the same ratio (1.66666666) for all 3.
For those that doubt me here are the numbers: Large armor rep 28x Rebublic Fleet High Captain Insignia I - Base Price: 100k = 2.8m 18x Republic Commander Insignia I - Base Price: 500k = 9m 3x Republic Commander Insignia II - Base Price: 750k = 2.25m Total price: 14.05m
Small armor rep 284x Republic Fleet Private Insignia I - Base Price: 20k = 5.68m 237x Republic Fleet Private Insignia II - Base Price: 25k = 5.925m 189x Republic Fleet Private Insignia III - Base Price: 30k = 5.67m Total Price: 17.275m
For a ratio of 1.66666 like both lp and isk have (50k vs 30k lp, 20m vs 12m isk) the total value of the small armor rep tags should be 8.43m which is almost exactly half the current cost. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2007.09.06 15:30:00 -
[39]
Hmm. This discrepancy should not exist. Thanks for pointing this out
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.09.06 16:02:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 06/09/2007 16:02:29 The same discrepancy exists to a lesser degree between cruiser and BS weapons.
For example in Amarr shop:
Amarr Navy Heavy Pulse Laser: 131 tags @ 60K 21 tags @ 100K
For a total of 9.96 mil
Amarr Navy Mega Beam Laser: 17 tags @ 100K 10 tags @ 500K 2 tags @ 750K
For a total of 8.2 mil
And this is just an example, it is true for cruiser mods in all shops prolly (checked for Khanid, Caldari and Amarr).
And no, it is NOT the BS offers having too small reqs
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.09.07 04:34:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 06/09/2007 16:02:29 The same discrepancy exists to a lesser degree between cruiser and BS weapons.
For example in Amarr shop:
Amarr Navy Heavy Pulse Laser: 131 tags @ 60K 21 tags @ 100K
For a total of 9.96 mil
Amarr Navy Mega Beam Laser: 17 tags @ 100K 10 tags @ 500K 2 tags @ 750K
For a total of 8.2 mil
And this is just an example, it is true for cruiser mods in all shops prolly (checked for Khanid, Caldari and Amarr).
And no, it is NOT the BS offers having too small reqs
I wouldnt say that... some of the tags you have to actually hunt down.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.07 06:42:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Nabar Phargal On the point of a lack of tags dropping in missions, why don't you go to the Outposts board and complain about the lack of arkanor in high sec while you're at it?
Because arkanor can be found outside high sec, specifically in 0.0 while empire tags can't be found outside missions.
So if they are found in missions only in small number there is reason to protest.
The apparent logic is that the tags will become available in the right number with the faction wars, but those are posponed continually.
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Nabar Phargal
Gallente Anqara Expeditions The OSS
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Posted - 2007.09.07 14:45:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Nabar Phargal on 07/09/2007 14:46:30
Originally by: Hoshi
Do you REALLY think battleship sized faction mods should be 100 times more common than frigate sized faction mods?
Nope. But I don't fly frigates often enough to put a high priority getting faction mods for them. I'd rank current mission issues this way: 1. LP store for interbus (doesn't affect me, but is pretty lame that it doesn't exist) 2. Gear for syndicate, thukker, and the other corps that don't have anything besides implants available from other sources(I have 500k LP with ISP I'd like to spend on something cool) 3. other things (L5, pirate factions, middle tier tag frequencies, stuff)
Thanks for pointing out the cost discrepency of the tags, I'd be willing to bet that'll get fixed in the next patch.
Originally by: Venkul Mul Because arkanor can be found outside high sec, specifically in 0.0 while empire tags can't be found outside missions.
Perhaps I left out a couple of words, but I still think the intent of my statement is clear given the context of the posts preceding it. Here's how I should have written it to make it unambiguously clear
Originally by: Nabar Phargal On the point of a lack of tags dropping in high sec missions, why don't you go to the Outposts board and complain about the lack of arkanor in high sec while you're at it?
Edit: spelling
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.09.07 15:41:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Nabar Phargal
Perhaps I left out a couple of words, but I still think the intent of my statement is clear given the context of the posts preceding it. Here's how I should have written it to make it unambiguously clear
Originally by: Nabar Phargal On the point of a lack of tags dropping in high sec missions, why don't you go to the Outposts board and complain about the lack of arkanor in high sec while you're at it?
I'm not sure that will be totally clear to most people here either. I'm thinking you're indirectly referring to the relatively plentiful tags that - do - drop in pirate and some side-faction missions, most of which (but not all) are in 0.0. Am I right? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Polysynchronicity
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.07 19:27:00 -
[45]
Greyscale, are tag rewards on the list for Factional Warfare? It seems to only make sense that if I go out and pick a fight with the Minmatar navy, the Minmatar ships that I kill will drop tags. -----
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2007.10.02 18:49:00 -
[46]
Today I have been mostly doing lots of Excel... We've taken a good look at the way tags are allocated to offers, had a nice long ponder and then rejigged a lot of stuff so that it conforms with new/revised paradigms. Tag counts should now make more sense, although the main point of the exercise has not been to cut requirements. That said, cruiser tag requirements are now less lop-sided, and we've slightly adjusted the tag cost requirements for offers requiring frigate tags in a generally downward direction.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.10.02 21:31:00 -
[47]
Nice to hear you haven't forgotten us :). Are the changes on sisi already so we can look at them, if not when do you expect them to be available for review? ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Sarkkon
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Posted - 2007.10.03 03:28:00 -
[48]
Might want to add to this taht tags apparently are not dropping anymore in l3 tech secrets missions. just ran thru my 3rd set in Danera... ZERO tags...Khanid space. DEVS??? please look into these drop tables (yesterday preferably)
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Zhaine
Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.10.03 11:26:00 -
[49]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale Today I have been mostly doing lots of Excel... We've taken a good look at the way tags are allocated to offers, had a nice long ponder and then rejigged a lot of stuff so that it conforms with new/revised paradigms. Tag counts should now make more sense, although the main point of the exercise has not been to cut requirements. That said, cruiser tag requirements are now less lop-sided, and we've slightly adjusted the tag cost requirements for offers requiring frigate tags in a generally downward direction.
Big big <3
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Triumdicta
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Posted - 2007.10.03 14:36:00 -
[50]
what region have these khanid LP stores, and do their friends also need gallente tags?
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Dr Grot
Gallente Warrior Eclipse
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Posted - 2007.10.04 11:49:00 -
[51]
I've an idea
or maybe a question
Can you engage faction navy at high sec gates, if so why can't these drop ensignia tags ?
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.01 11:12:00 -
[52]
I finally got the time to look at the changed tag requirements.
Large: Amarr Navy Large Armor Repair Old: 28x Republic Fleet High Captain Insignia I 18x Republic Fleet Commander Insignia I 3x Republic Fleet Commander Insignia II New: 3x Republic Fleet High Captain Insignia I 18x Republic Fleet Commander Insignia I 28x Republic Fleet Commander Insignia II
Old tag price: 14.05m New tag price: 30.3m
Medium: Amarr Navy Medium Armor Repair Old: 221x Republic Fleet Captain Insignia I 36x Republic Fleet High Captain Insignia I New: 108x Republic Fleet Captain Insignia I 178x Republic Fleet High Captain Insignia I
Old tag price: 16.86m New tag price: 24.8m
Small: Amarr Navy Small Armor Repair Old: 284x Republic Fleet Private Insignia I 262x Republic Fleet Private Insignia II 221x Republic Fleet Private Insignia II New: 151x Republic Fleet Private Insignia I 190x Republic Fleet Private Insignia II 227x Republic Fleet Private Insignia II
Old tag price: 18.86m New tag price: 14.58m
Analasys: I foresee a large price hike in Republic Fleet Commander Insignia II, this tag where used in small quantities pre change and as such the market price where very close to npc price. Demand is now going to increase almost 10 fold.
It's harder to predict the price of Republic Fleet High Captain Insignia I. It's use in large mods are being cut a lot but on the other hand the use in medium sized mods are increased by MUCH more. Its price will depend a lot on the availability of the Republic Fleet Captain Insignia I. If people can't get this tag then few medium offers will be taken and as such the price High Captain tag will not rise.
All in all I foresee a price hike in all large faction mods, the npc tag price suggests 15m but I predict closer to 50m or more once Commander Insignia II starts becoming rare.
For medium mods while the npc prices suggest a price increase I predict prices will in reality drop. Right now more than half the price come from the high market price of the Captain Insignia I. Of course this is going to depend a lot on where the price of High Captain Insignia ends up.
For small mods the price are going to drop, nothing to it.
Note that while this analysis used amarr mods/tag it should hold true for all empires LP stores. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.01 11:25:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Hoshi Medium: Amarr Navy Medium Armor Repair Old: 221x Republic Fleet Captain Insignia I 36x Republic Fleet High Captain Insignia I New: 108x Republic Fleet Captain Insignia I 178x Republic Fleet High Captain Insignia I
Wow, I really wonder what kind of person is in charge of these things. Must be some PvP monkey with no PvE clues whatsoever. If they do changes like that, they might as well not change things at all. I mean, here we have a module that needs a very insane amount of one type of rare tag and a moderate amount of another type of rare tag. And they change it to needing insane amounts of both types of rare tags? I fail to see the fix... If anything, this will make the sitation even WORSE since the total amount of cruiser tags needed is even higher after the fix. A real fix would be to seriously reduce the number of cruiser tags needed, and to make up the value difference with a few BS tags which actually drop in decent quantities in L4 missions.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.02 06:56:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
- Give us more L4 missions that sport the faction whose tags are needed for LP offers.
- Fix L5 missions.
And to anyone saying it is fine as long as people buy them for that price, the problem here is that people buy them for OTHER applications (like EANMs) where they are required in much smaller quantities and thus the high price does not hurt nearly as much.
P.S.: This is even more stupid for frig sized modules.
I agree. This is wayyyy too messed up. If there was a level 4 mission against the Minmatar navy, then it might be better.... but as it stands, level 3 missions are better for tags then level 4s (speaking the amarr have ZERO missions that I have found against minmatar navy, whilst the level 3 has some... and the amarr have enemies about, or whatever, with a ton of gallente navy people. )
Or, make level 5s worthwile.
No need to screw with lev 4 missions. I decline missions against factions anyway as I DO need to go other factions space every now and then and getting too low is rather one way trip (not possible to recover with sensible amount of work or at all in some cases).
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.02 07:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Carniflex No need to screw with lev 4 missions. I decline missions against factions anyway as I DO need to go other factions space every now and then and getting too low is rather one way trip (not possible to recover with sensible amount of work or at all in some cases).
You can easily go to some factions space even with -10 to them. You can even go AFK during travel if you are in a fast ship, the little squad that goes after you does not even catch a shuttle on autopilot. You just have to be there when you jump into the destination system, but even then if you are just a shuttle or frig who cares whether it goes pop...
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.11.02 08:25:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Carniflex No need to screw with lev 4 missions. I decline missions against factions anyway as I DO need to go other factions space every now and then and getting too low is rather one way trip (not possible to recover with sensible amount of work or at all in some cases).
You can easily go to some factions space even with -10 to them. You can even go AFK during travel if you are in a fast ship, the little squad that goes after you does not even catch a shuttle on autopilot. You just have to be there when you jump into the destination system, but even then if you are just a shuttle or frig who cares whether it goes pop...
My problem is that I sometimes need to go thru their space in freighter. I do have negotiations skill up to lev 4 and thats the only thing keeping gallente off my neck as I used to accept every mission agent gave me when I was .. eh .. younger. Nowdays it's just another 4h timer if I end up 2x in row on enemies abound.
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Khwalik
Ghetto Kings
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Posted - 2007.11.02 22:45:00 -
[57]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Feng Schui The LP shop was supposed to help with the growing costs of faction gear (thus, help keeping inflation down)...
No, it wasn't.
I'll look at the tags for Khanid specifically tomorrow, it's possible that some of the cruiser values are incorrect.
not any different than requirements to get a Amarr Navy Rep(Lg) anywhere else. Yeah it's alot...buy it on contract....still gonna be about the same regardless. Quit your belly aching...lp store isn't Wal Mart after all.
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