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Pwe PU
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Posted - 2007.09.01 21:03:00 -
[1]
Somebody just sent me a scathing in game email about how I was destroying the market by not doing $.01. I personally find them kind of annoying and so generally do whole number jumps when competing. So what are people's thought on $.01 increment? |
Hanoi Hana
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Posted - 2007.09.01 21:13:00 -
[2]
I'm the worst hypocrite about this. I do the 0.01 game all the time and almost get ****ed off every time somebody makes a 1.2mil price increase or whatever, yet five minutes later I will have no problem getting annoyed at the 0.01 game and post my own 750k price increase on another item... and so on. :)
I have considered sending mails several times about it, but decided not to every time. And lately I have not been caring as much about 0.01 or big increases as I used to like in the beginning of this post.
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Balogh
Gallente Real-time EVE Stock Exchange
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Posted - 2007.09.01 21:13:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Balogh on 01/09/2007 21:14:18 There's no such thing as 'destroying the market', either by incrementing by 0.01 isk or by larger jumps.
The order price reflects the amount of money one's willing to pay/receive in exchange for goods. As such, the market is governed by supply and demand.
It's not the market that's being destroyed by larger price jumps, it's the undercutters that get hurt. ______________________________ Real-time EVE Stock Exchange, Blog |
Hanoi Hana
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Posted - 2007.09.01 21:55:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Balogh Edited by: Balogh on 01/09/2007 21:14:18The order price reflects the amount of money one's willing to pay/receive in exchange for goods. As such, the market is governed by supply and demand.
I think you need to go back to Lazynomics 101 for economies of abundance. :)
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Falbala
Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia
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Posted - 2007.09.01 22:40:00 -
[5]
I posted something in Features and Suggestions, here
Let me explain. You make Thorax and the corp next to you makes Vexor. So you are not direct concurrents. You both need isogen. You won't place a buy order in materials for 1 Thorax, you will place a buy order for 5M isogen if you can afford. Lets say 5M @ 75. But now you don't need 5M right away just enough for 1 Thorax.
But your neighbour needs isogen too for the Vexor. Alright if you discuss together you can settle this but if you don't you one of you will get all the isogen unless you start competing on price. So .01 increment makes it fair, simply don't be too hasty on raising price again, but if you go whole numbers this is silly you will ruin yourself and your neighbour.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.02 00:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Pwe PU Somebody just sent me a scathing in game email about how I was destroying the market by not doing $.01. I personally find them kind of annoying and so generally do whole number jumps when competing. So what are people's thought on $.01 increment?
I see it as rather pointless to undercut by more then .01 isk, if your competitor is just going to turn around and do the same thing. (as much as I hate this practice, the game basically demands it) If you over/under bid a product by a significant and your competitor turns around and over/under bids you by .01 isk, you just lost a good portion of profit margin with no gain in market position.
On the other hand, if your large bid increase/decrease discourages your competitors then its worth it, but that is rarely the case these days. Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here |
Hexxx
Minmatar ironwood ink
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Posted - 2007.09.02 01:31:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: Pwe PU Somebody just sent me a scathing in game email about how I was destroying the market by not doing $.01. I personally find them kind of annoying and so generally do whole number jumps when competing. So what are people's thought on $.01 increment?
I see it as rather pointless to undercut by more then .01 isk, if your competitor is just going to turn around and do the same thing. (as much as I hate this practice, the game basically demands it) If you over/under bid a product by a significant and your competitor turns around and over/under bids you by .01 isk, you just lost a good portion of profit margin with no gain in market position.
On the other hand, if your large bid increase/decrease discourages your competitors then its worth it, but that is rarely the case these days.
I destroy profit margins generally when I trade in a region. I don't have the time to fiddle with 0.01 increases, so I go by 100k or 250k or 500k or even 1 million increases.
There are some additional things you have to do when you start playing with this kind of strategy but generally I find it satisfying and a better use of my time.
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.09.02 03:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Pwe PU Somebody just sent me a scathing in game email about how I was destroying the market by not doing $.01. I personally find them kind of annoying and so generally do whole number jumps when competing. So what are people's thought on $.01 increment?
Meh, just send back to him "Welcome to market PvP".
If you really want to know my full thoughts on 0.01 wars, check the link in my sig.
Improve Market Competition!
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.02 03:41:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Dr Slurm on 02/09/2007 03:42:37
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: Pwe PU Somebody just sent me a scathing in game email about how I was destroying the market by not doing $.01. I personally find them kind of annoying and so generally do whole number jumps when competing. So what are people's thought on $.01 increment?
I see it as rather pointless to undercut by more then .01 isk, if your competitor is just going to turn around and do the same thing. (as much as I hate this practice, the game basically demands it) If you over/under bid a product by a significant and your competitor turns around and over/under bids you by .01 isk, you just lost a good portion of profit margin with no gain in market position.
On the other hand, if your large bid increase/decrease discourages your competitors then its worth it, but that is rarely the case these days.
I destroy profit margins generally when I trade in a region. I don't have the time to fiddle with 0.01 increases, so I go by 100k or 250k or 500k or even 1 million increases.
There are some additional things you have to do when you start playing with this kind of strategy but generally I find it satisfying and a better use of my time.
I entirely agree that's a valid tactic against some competitors. That tactic will cut out the weak ones. I think it really is a shame to throw away that profit if the end result is just going to be you were out bid by .01 isk yet again.
If you go to the extent of loosing isk(read: investing) to destroy a market that's another thing I guess. I think at that point I would stop trading in that market until it returned to normal or hold my prices accordingly and wait. Which I guess is the point, but I would keep trading if there was still a decent margin. It really comes down to who has the better profit margin and the capital to flex it.
I'm not really sure if you can call this market PvP, but rather maybe "market chicken".
//edit: we should make a thread devoted to this and maybe get it stickied, this topic comes up a lot. Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here |
Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.09.02 07:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Pwe PU Somebody just sent me a scathing in game email about how I was destroying the market by not doing $.01. I personally find them kind of annoying and so generally do whole number jumps when competing. So what are people's thought on $.01 increment?
Well did it work? Do they still follow you? If not, then you won, but if they do, then you just cut your own profits for nothing.
So the answer is, if I think large step will make others wait till I sell my stuff, I do it. If I think they will follow me and continue in 0.01 war at lower price(s), I forget about it and play 0.01 with them.
_________ Always buying: pirate implants & high-end hardwirings Tech2 distribution service: 8 regions covered |
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SiJira
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Posted - 2007.09.02 08:43:00 -
[11]
you just won market pvp ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem |
Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2007.09.02 09:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Robacz
Well did it work? Do they still follow you? If not, then you won, but if they do, then you just cut your own profits for nothing.
No, if they just followed you, you just cut THEIR profits for nothing. Because it wont be you making the purchace, it will be them.
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Falbala
Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia
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Posted - 2007.09.02 09:16:00 -
[13]
You can come destroy my market anytime, if you undercut me too much I'll buy your stuff, if you buy at a too higher price than me I'll sell to you. People always forget these options when they are in price wars.
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Daeva Vios
Ardent Adversary Anvil.
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Posted - 2007.09.02 15:36:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Falbala Edited by: Falbala on 02/09/2007 09:17:40 You can come destroy my market anytime, if you undercut me too much I'll buy your stuff, if you buy at a too higher price than me I'll sell to you. People often forget these options when they are in price wars.
I love it when I see this in my transactions tab.
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Falbala
Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia
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Posted - 2007.09.02 19:20:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Originally by: Falbala Edited by: Falbala on 02/09/2007 09:17:40 You can come destroy my market anytime, if you undercut me too much I'll buy your stuff, if you buy at a too higher price than me I'll sell to you. People often forget these options when they are in price wars.
I love it when I see this in my transactions tab.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.02 19:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dr Slurm Edited by: Dr Slurm on 02/09/2007 03:42:37
Originally by: Hexxx
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: Pwe PU Somebody just sent me a scathing in game email about how I was destroying the market by not doing $.01. I personally find them kind of annoying and so generally do whole number jumps when competing. So what are people's thought on $.01 increment?
I see it as rather pointless to undercut by more then .01 isk, if your competitor is just going to turn around and do the same thing. (as much as I hate this practice, the game basically demands it) If you over/under bid a product by a significant and your competitor turns around and over/under bids you by .01 isk, you just lost a good portion of profit margin with no gain in market position.
On the other hand, if your large bid increase/decrease discourages your competitors then its worth it, but that is rarely the case these days.
I destroy profit margins generally when I trade in a region. I don't have the time to fiddle with 0.01 increases, so I go by 100k or 250k or 500k or even 1 million increases.
There are some additional things you have to do when you start playing with this kind of strategy but generally I find it satisfying and a better use of my time.
I entirely agree that's a valid tactic against some competitors. That tactic will cut out the weak ones. I think it really is a shame to throw away that profit if the end result is just going to be you were out bid by .01 isk yet again.
If you go to the extent of loosing isk(read: investing) to destroy a market that's another thing I guess. I think at that point I would stop trading in that market until it returned to normal or hold my prices accordingly and wait. Which I guess is the point, but I would keep trading if there was still a decent margin. It really comes down to who has the better profit margin and the capital to flex it.
I'm not really sure if you can call this market PvP, but rather maybe "market chicken".
//edit: we should make a thread devoted to this and maybe get it stickied, this topic comes up a lot.
There are two distinct kinds of traders. The trader who is plays A LOT and the trader who doesn't. If you play a lot then you can keep up with .01 wars, outbidding the other guy enough of the time that you'll get your share of the orders filled. If you don't play a lot then you can't compete with .01 wars and you will never get a single order filled. If you are never going to get an order filled then your profit is currently 0. Therefore increasing your prices by 100k/500k/1 mil is not hurting any profit... as you have no current profit to hurt. Making 1 million constantly instead of 0 isk is far better than hoping that one day you'll make 2 million.
I don't log in all that much. 2-3 times/day at most, sometimes less. If someone is constantly outbidding me I will jump my prices drastically. If I can't have a market then I am going to make that market worthless for everyone else. I don't care one little bit if I cause every other trader in EVE to make less money... all I care about is if I make more.
You can argue about my strategy if you'd like, but I will say this. I've been using it for 1 year 1 month and a few days now and I have made a LOT of money. I say a LOT being someone who has read these forums that entire time... and I see others talking about money they make. I also compare that to total IPO prices, etc.
As a side note... I've gotten quite a few eve-mails from people mad at me for destroying markets. I can promise you that nothing makes my day more. Every single time it has made me decide to work even harder at that particular market, just to try to get a 2nd eve-mail from that person.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Kitex
Blacktag Test Labs
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Posted - 2007.09.02 19:33:00 -
[17]
Funny thing is, even at 35k p/u you'd be just as well off melting them all and selling the minerals.
The manufacturer in me dies a little every time I see this, but I suppose it's the nature of T1 markets these days. Blacktag - Buy ships / Fittings / Drones / Ammo in BULK with Delivery! |
Falbala
Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia
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Posted - 2007.09.02 19:36:00 -
[18]
Yes true, they cost me 34k pu to make. But my refiner alt doesnt have scrapmetal processing and I like to sell attractive products to keep customers in the region, so they can buy my ships .
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.09.03 02:38:00 -
[19]
lol I got one like that but it was for a different type of trade.
I manufactured about 150,000 rockets really early on in my eve-life. I broke them down into 25K lots, and traveled over the region and sold them each one for 0.01 less then the last price I set.
It was a competitive price, and I didn't know much about market but I saw how other items where sold. I used the price to identify sales volume at those locations, so there was method to my madness.
I got two mails from two different people. One say, WHAT ARE YOU DOING!! Completing with yourself?!? You're an idiot and need to go away.
The second one was.. hmm that's an interesting tactic, creating artificial competition to give the illusion these rockets are already highly competed over. But you should have used an alt.
I did this for another item recently and it still works very well but it does really eat up your sales slots. So it's good if you're making 1 or 2 items but any more and you're hindering your sales performance.
Amarr for Life |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.03 06:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Falbala Yes true, they cost me 34k pu to make. But my refiner alt doesnt have scrapmetal processing and I like to sell attractive products to keep customers in the region, so they can buy my ships .
I'm glad someone spends their time trading items for a mere 10k profit on such a low turn-over item. People do need those silly items, so someone has to spend the time to keep stations stocked... but I'm not wasting my time
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.03 07:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Pwe PU how I was destroying the market by not doing $.01
Treat it as a friendly suggestion from a colleague?
0.01 cuts are friendly time/market sharing method for sellers to substain unformally agreed price (i.e. a way to maintan cartel). If the other party(ies) reduces the price too often (i.e. won't let you to keep a reasonably share of the market), then you're forced to go into real competition and drop prices in big steps according to your profit margins.
For some that 'too often' is 10 minutes; for others even once a day would be too frequent.
Then again, from buyer's point of view its good to have lot of sellers who just by principle hate cartels.
-Lasse with 'too often' limit being around a week
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.09.03 07:49:00 -
[22]
I must admit that when I started trading, the 0.01 really annoyed me. Then I realised that it made more sense for me to use small increments myself. Usually around the 1 isk mark.
Now neither big or small increases annoy me but I simply don't unserstand the way some people do it.
For example, I had an item that I was buying for around 2m, Jita price was around 5mil. Excellent. However, after a few days of milking this, one of the other traders woke up and updated his order and put it 10k above mine. Obviously I responded and went 1 isk higher. Soon after he went 100k up and I again increased by 1 isk.
This went on over the course of a few days, all the way up to around 4m. This guy clearly had time to update his orders and I was clearly quite happy to go over his price every time so why did he keep up with the 100k increases?
It dosn't annoy me because that's the game and I'm still making profit. I simply don't understand the reasoning behind this.
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Tailhook
Caldari Hotchies
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Posted - 2007.09.03 08:07:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ambo I must admit that when I started trading, the 0.01 really annoyed me. Then I realised that it made more sense for me to use small increments myself. Usually around the 1 isk mark.
Now neither big or small increases annoy me but I simply don't unserstand the way some people do it.
For example, I had an item that I was buying for around 2m, Jita price was around 5mil. Excellent. However, after a few days of milking this, one of the other traders woke up and updated his order and put it 10k above mine. Obviously I responded and went 1 isk higher. Soon after he went 100k up and I again increased by 1 isk.
This went on over the course of a few days, all the way up to around 4m. This guy clearly had time to update his orders and I was clearly quite happy to go over his price every time so why did he keep up with the 100k increases?
It dosn't annoy me because that's the game and I'm still making profit. I simply don't understand the reasoning behind this.
What else should he have done?
Playing the 1 isk increase game with you, would just require updating orders often, you would match the new price for sure.
Stopping? well isk was still there to be made
Makes sence to do as you descriped, it would end when you pulled out because margins was now too low for your tastes, or he pulled out. In both pullout cases it could make perfect sence to dump any aquired goods on the competitor, cashing in at less profit than the Jita haul would bring, but saving the hauling hassle.
And severely cutting in on the earnings of a fellow trader is a nice bonus.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.03 08:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tailhook
Originally by: Ambo I must admit that when I started trading, the 0.01 really annoyed me. Then I realised that it made more sense for me to use small increments myself. Usually around the 1 isk mark.
Now neither big or small increases annoy me but I simply don't unserstand the way some people do it.
For example, I had an item that I was buying for around 2m, Jita price was around 5mil. Excellent. However, after a few days of milking this, one of the other traders woke up and updated his order and put it 10k above mine. Obviously I responded and went 1 isk higher. Soon after he went 100k up and I again increased by 1 isk.
This went on over the course of a few days, all the way up to around 4m. This guy clearly had time to update his orders and I was clearly quite happy to go over his price every time so why did he keep up with the 100k increases?
It dosn't annoy me because that's the game and I'm still making profit. I simply don't understand the reasoning behind this.
What else should he have done?
Playing the 1 isk increase game with you, would just require updating orders often, you would match the new price for sure.
Stopping? well isk was still there to be made
Makes sence to do as you descriped, it would end when you pulled out because margins was now too low for your tastes, or he pulled out. In both pullout cases it could make perfect sence to dump any aquired goods on the competitor, cashing in at less profit than the Jita haul would bring, but saving the hauling hassle.
And severely cutting in on the earnings of a fellow trader is a nice bonus.
Exactly. If the margin gets to slim for even him, he can just leave. He hasn't lost anything.. but he has screwed the market for you. Since he is hurting a competitor it is a gain for him... plus he prob got a few items to resell in that time frame. If you leave then he has the market and making 1 mil per item on the entire market or part of the market is better than making 3 million on no items.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Robacz
Essence Trade Essence Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.09.03 08:36:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shadarle There are two distinct kinds of traders. The trader who is plays A LOT and the trader who doesn't. If you play a lot then you can keep up with .01 wars, outbidding the other guy enough of the time that you'll get your share of the orders filled. If you don't play a lot then you can't compete with .01 wars and you will never get a single order filled. If you are never going to get an order filled then your profit is currently 0. Therefore increasing your prices by 100k/500k/1 mil is not hurting any profit... as you have no current profit to hurt. Making 1 million constantly instead of 0 isk is far better than hoping that one day you'll make 2 million.
I disagree 0.01 thing is only time releated thing. I log once, or max twice a day and I still play 0.01 games. It depends on item/location. Obviously some items are so heavily camped that two updates per day will result in zero sales, but most of empire is not like that.
_________ Always buying: pirate implants & high-end hardwirings Tech2 distribution service: 8 regions covered |
Falbala
Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia
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Posted - 2007.09.03 10:57:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Falbala on 03/09/2007 10:59:57
Originally by: Shadarle I'm glad someone spends their time trading items for a mere 10k profit on such a low turn-over item. People do need those silly items, so someone has to spend the time to keep stations stocked... but I'm not wasting my time
Do you realize I sold back half of the stock in 24 hours?
Two years ago I decided to take control of the Iron Charge M in Empire, my target price was 11.50 I think, so I bought everything under the target price. Iron M is a really low turn over item, at some places it was sold like 5.50. Overall I lost some money because I met fierce resistance near Yulaj were 2 corps were already fighting on this product, they made several hundreds of thousand Iron M, I couldn't compete.
However I learned a lot, if your product doesn't sell then it is not at the right place, not because of the price. A mission runner on the rush will buy in station if possible, whatever the price is, it is where you can make real good deal.
For these drones, I have all the necessary trade skills but Visibility, so click buy, click sell, it took me less than 1 minute.
For buying I follow the 0.01 rule, for selling it is very different, I can sell at higher price if the item is at the right place (for instance a popular agent runners station), or 5+ jumps away from the best competitor. Sometimes, it works for buying too, I get Pyerite at 6.12 when the highest bid in system is 7 because it is 11 jumps away (and also because they have a large supply of berserker drones to defend their barges )
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.09.03 11:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Tailhook
Originally by: Ambo I must admit that when I started trading, the 0.01 really annoyed me. Then I realised that it made more sense for me to use small increments myself. Usually around the 1 isk mark.
Now neither big or small increases annoy me but I simply don't unserstand the way some people do it.
For example, I had an item that I was buying for around 2m, Jita price was around 5mil. Excellent. However, after a few days of milking this, one of the other traders woke up and updated his order and put it 10k above mine. Obviously I responded and went 1 isk higher. Soon after he went 100k up and I again increased by 1 isk.
This went on over the course of a few days, all the way up to around 4m. This guy clearly had time to update his orders and I was clearly quite happy to go over his price every time so why did he keep up with the 100k increases?
It dosn't annoy me because that's the game and I'm still making profit. I simply don't understand the reasoning behind this.
What else should he have done?
Playing the 1 isk increase game with you, would just require updating orders often, you would match the new price for sure.
Stopping? well isk was still there to be made
Makes sence to do as you descriped, it would end when you pulled out because margins was now too low for your tastes, or he pulled out. In both pullout cases it could make perfect sence to dump any aquired goods on the competitor, cashing in at less profit than the Jita haul would bring, but saving the hauling hassle.
And severely cutting in on the earnings of a fellow trader is a nice bonus.
Exactly. If the margin gets to slim for even him, he can just leave. He hasn't lost anything.. but he has screwed the market for you. Since he is hurting a competitor it is a gain for him... plus he prob got a few items to resell in that time frame. If you leave then he has the market and making 1 mil per item on the entire market or part of the market is better than making 3 million on no items.
Well yeah... but think about it for a minute. He was updating at least as fast as I was, usually within a few minutes of me overbidding, his would be up again. If he had just gone over me by a few isk (which is what he started to do at 4mil) then he would have been making a lot more money. All he has achieved is to massively decrease the profit we both make on that item.
My point is, if you are actually going to force someone out of the market then fine but why raise by large amounts like that again and again when the other person is clearly not going to drop out while there is money to be made?
If he leaves the market then I'll just lower my price again. I may have bought a few items at a high price but they are still profitable and frankly, 1 or 2 item lines maknig a bit less profit from 1 region is not going to cause me any sleepless nights.
In the end, this person achieved nothing but reduced profits for both of us. Personally, I don't give a damn if other people are making money or not. I'm not going to destroy any serious competitors with a few 10's of mil down the toilet so I'd rather just make as much money as I can.
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Falbala
Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia
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Posted - 2007.09.03 11:45:00 -
[28]
When there are competitors like that take an iteron, and go shopping, eventually fill their buy orders for a profit.
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Proton Power
Amarr Power Corrupts Tech Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.09.03 12:15:00 -
[29]
If they got mad at you they would hate me. I have a tendancy to lose isk after a while if somone keeps undercutting me. I hate playing the undercutting game. -----------------------------------------------
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=439797Cli |
Falbala
Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:09:00 -
[30]
Once the reprocessed equivalent of the item reaches your mineral buy value, buy everything, or wait a little more to see if it can go lower .
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