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SoldierOfFortune
Caldari Sheepish R and D
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Posted - 2007.09.12 00:29:00 -
[1]
Edited by: SoldierOfFortune on 12/09/2007 00:29:45 Anyone think the Trit prices will go back down soon? :/ starting to get annoying xD "RAWR" is my keyword, and also my second language |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.12 01:09:00 -
[2]
Nobody that has a clue thinks that.
The major source of Tritanium was reprocessing of "Coupling Arrays" (NPC-sold POS structure), which yielded tritanium at around 2.3 ISK per unit (average market price was around 2.5 ISK)... source which was "nerfed" in one of the rcent patches.
To the best of my knowledge, the best current reprocessing rate is for 3.6 ISK per unit (I might be wrong here), so I fully expect the market price to go closer to 3.5 ISK/unit soon, or even above 3.7 ISK per unit of Tritanium eventually. _
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Danari
Amarr Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.12 01:33:00 -
[3]
As usual, the composite index of all minerals continues to hold pretty steady, actually slightly lower even in the face of trit and mex pushing up. As long as you buy and hold minerals in their natural proportions, you're never hurt by individual movements.
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Vrizuh
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.12 04:18:00 -
[4]
Enlightening. <3 Akita.
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Chainsaw Plankton
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Posted - 2007.09.13 01:36:00 -
[5]
9000isk shuttle -> 2750 trit, 3.27 as the ceiling, with a perfect refine.
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Lock out
Bald Industrial Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.13 02:27:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton 9000isk shuttle -> 2750 trit, 3.27 as the ceiling, with a perfect refine.
Isn't it 2500? |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.13 02:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lock out
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton 9000isk shuttle -> 2750 trit, 3.27 as the ceiling, with a perfect refine.
Isn't it 2500?
The item database on this site says its 2500, dunno if its correct though. Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.09.13 04:22:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: Lock out
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton 9000isk shuttle -> 2750 trit, 3.27 as the ceiling, with a perfect refine.
Isn't it 2500?
The item database on this site says its 2500, dunno if its correct though.
The refine panel in-game says it's 2500 for a perfect, untaxed refine. I could swear I saw 2750 somewhere, though.
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Galgorth
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Posted - 2007.09.13 06:52:00 -
[9]
Because of reprocessing wastage, even with perfect skills shuttles will refine to 3.6 trit/u.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.13 07:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Galgorth Because of reprocessing wastage, even with perfect skills shuttles will refine to 3.6 trit/u.
What reprocessing wastage? There would be none with perfect skills and standing. 9000/2500 = 3.6. Nothing else should be playing a factor there.
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Neko Sornan
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.09.13 09:49:00 -
[11]
Refining the coupling arrays was listed in the 2.2 patch notes under exploits fixed.
Quote: Coupling arrays and other silos no longer reprocess into too many minerals compared to their buy price.
So I guess reprocessing a lot of shuttles and whatever comes after them will be too. But can anyone tell me what qualifies this as an exploit? It's perfectly within game mechanics and why shouldn't you be allowed to refine the 100000 shuttles you bought ...
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Galgorth
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Posted - 2007.09.13 09:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Galgorth Because of reprocessing wastage, even with perfect skills shuttles will refine to 3.6 trit/u.
What reprocessing wastage? There would be none with perfect skills and standing. 9000/2500 = 3.6. Nothing else should be playing a factor there.
A lot of people use the 'blueprint' value of 2750 when computing shuttle reprocessing. 9000/2750 = 3.3. The blueprint value, however, includes the 10% waste you can't get back.
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Jon Asus
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Posted - 2007.09.13 10:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Neko Sornan Refining the coupling arrays was listed in the 2.2 patch notes under exploits fixed.
Quote: Coupling arrays and other silos no longer reprocess into too many minerals compared to their buy price.
So I guess reprocessing a lot of shuttles and whatever comes after them will be too. But can anyone tell me what qualifies this as an exploit? It's perfectly within game mechanics and why shouldn't you be allowed to refine the 100000 shuttles you bought ...
The exploit bit comes from the fact that the arrays refined into more minerals than they should have.
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Neko Sornan
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.09.13 10:23:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jon Asus
Originally by: Neko Sornan Refining the coupling arrays was listed in the 2.2 patch notes under exploits fixed.
Quote: Coupling arrays and other silos no longer reprocess into too many minerals compared to their buy price.
So I guess reprocessing a lot of shuttles and whatever comes after them will be too. But can anyone tell me what qualifies this as an exploit? It's perfectly within game mechanics and why shouldn't you be allowed to refine the 100000 shuttles you bought ...
The exploit bit comes from the fact that the arrays refined into more minerals than they should have.
But ... if the trit price rises to 3.7 would then refining shuttles not also be an exploit because you get more trit then the buy price is?
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.13 11:48:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Neko Sornan
Originally by: Jon Asus
Originally by: Neko Sornan Refining the coupling arrays was listed in the 2.2 patch notes under exploits fixed.
Quote: Coupling arrays and other silos no longer reprocess into too many minerals compared to their buy price.
So I guess reprocessing a lot of shuttles and whatever comes after them will be too. But can anyone tell me what qualifies this as an exploit? It's perfectly within game mechanics and why shouldn't you be allowed to refine the 100000 shuttles you bought ...
The exploit bit comes from the fact that the arrays refined into more minerals than they should have.
But ... if the trit price rises to 3.7 would then refining shuttles not also be an exploit because you get more trit then the buy price is?
I think, but could be wrong, that the reason coupling arrays were considered an exploit is because they refined into more m^3 of minerals than they took up in completed form.
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Neko Sornan
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.09.13 12:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shadarle [...]
I think, but could be wrong, that the reason coupling arrays were considered an exploit is because they refined into more m^3 of minerals than they took up in completed form.
No, I think a coupling array could be bought from the NPC market for 3000 isk (don't have any number so they're just an example) and when you refined it you got trit units worth 3000 isk at a trit value of 2.3 isk. So if you sell the trit then for anything > 2.3 isk, you make isk with doing not much for it.
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Block Ukx
KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.09.13 13:41:00 -
[17]
Read the patch notes again: ôCoupling arrays and other silos no longer reprocess into too many minerals compared to their buy priceö.
Therefore, refining shuttles ôinto too many minerals compared to their buy priceö would be considered an exploit.
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Cker Heel
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate Operations Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.09.13 13:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Neko Sornan you make isk with doing not much for it.
The function of the price cap items like Coupling Arrays is to suck ISK out of the game when price levels rise. It takes player activity to perform this economic service. Those who do so would have trained reprocessing and market skills, and spent time monitoring the market.
Until the next price cap is reached, the ISK formerly sunk in Coupling Array orders will now stay in the game. We will see if general price levels rise and if miners migrate to 1.0 systems to shoot at Veld instead of whatever work they engaged in before the patch.
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Neko Sornan
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.09.13 14:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Block Ukx Read the patch notes again: ôCoupling arrays and other silos no longer reprocess into too many minerals compared to their buy priceö.
Therefore, refining shuttles ôinto too many minerals compared to their buy priceö would be considered an exploit.
You're sure? I don't make assumptions and considerations any more when it comes to CCP, sorry. They're sometimes beyond my logic. 15000 shuttles sold in 'The Forge' yesterday ... and please everyone raise a hand who reprocessed a shuttle before, you're exploiting! On a more serious side, where are the going to draw a line?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.13 14:06:00 -
[20]
Whenever reading patchnotes, especially the "exploit fixes" section, always take it with a grain of salt (funny blast from the past, worth reading)... it doesn't always mean what it says literally. Oh, and apparently, memory halflife of devs is definetely under 1 year :P
Coupling arrays are a 4000 m^3 volume item, with a NPC sales price of 2.25 mil ISK. It *USED* to refine into something like a bit under 900k tritanium and some trace highends, and after selling the highends you'd end up with tritanium somewhere around 2.3 ISK per unit. So yeah, it was also slightly compressed (9:4 rough ratio) tritanium. Now, it refines into peanuts, because, apparently, after almost 2 years of the devs being aware of it, it suddendly became "inconvenient" for some reason.
Shuttles and other items, yes, don't look at "BPO showinfo" values, those are with 10% waste included. So if you're looking at it nowadays, you'll find tritanium to "cost" (via reprocessing) at least 3.6 ISK per unit. That is, unless you can find another source of "cheaper" tritanium. _
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.13 14:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Block Ukx Read the patch notes again: ôCoupling arrays and other silos no longer reprocess into too many minerals compared to their buy priceö.
Therefore, refining shuttles ôinto too many minerals compared to their buy priceö would be considered an exploit.
Block is correct.
Coupling arrays weren't considered as part of the mineral ratio reprocess nerf as they have approximately a 1:1.75 ratio. I believe CCP specifically stated that anything about the 1:5 ratio would be hit with the nerf.
Coupling arrays were a stealth nerf, but a few of us anticipated this and reprocessed ours before the patch. Others werent so lucky as can be seen by hundreds for sale in Jita below npc price.
Either way, if CCP deem it an exploit, they definetly should be removing shuttles ability to limit the price of trit as well. Let miners determine the price, CCP should have no input on it whatsoever.
Obviously this means my production costs will increase considerably, but in turn I will adjust my selling prices to suit.
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Neko Sornan
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.09.13 15:10:00 -
[22]
Found a funny thing to quote from http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=251438&page=4#100, Posted - 2005.11.24 18:59:00, on players requesting the pos modules refining yield to be changed:
Originally by: CCP Oveur No, you just missed the point. I CAN make it 1 tritanium meaning when you recycle it you will get 1 tritanium. That is something I don't WANT to do because players would be ****ed after recycling one.
There is no chance we're going to refactor the system to take into account the few cases where the ~250% roof is hit. There would have to be more factors coming into this.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.13 16:39:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ricdic Let miners determine the price, CCP should have no input on it whatsoever. Obviously this means my production costs will increase considerably, but in turn I will adjust my selling prices to suit.
Wrong. If trit "ceiling" price is removed, all you'll see is a crash of highends, and only a slight increase in production cost. The overall "basket price" of minerals remains nearly constant barring huge demand fluctuations (i.e. post-patch day, when everybody's scrambling, buying minerals and components to manufacture the newwly appeared ships and modules). _
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.13 18:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ricdic Let miners determine the price, CCP should have no input on it whatsoever. Obviously this means my production costs will increase considerably, but in turn I will adjust my selling prices to suit.
Wrong. If trit "ceiling" price is removed, all you'll see is a crash of highends, and only a slight increase in production cost. The overall "basket price" of minerals remains nearly constant barring huge demand fluctuations (i.e. post-patch day, when everybody's scrambling, buying minerals and components to manufacture the newwly appeared ships and modules).
If all NPC refinable items were changed to yield very small amounts of minerals would the "basket price" still remain constant? The only reason it does now I thought is because of the limit some minerals would hit. If trit continued to rise in price... eventually the high ends would drop a bit as overall production would decline due to increased costs. But this would eventually drive up the prices of all produced items... which would increase the profit for producing those items... which increases the amount of items produced... which increases the demand for minerals again. It's a cycle... and without limits on the max prices of any minerals it would continue to spiral upwards, would it not?
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.13 18:45:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ricdic Let miners determine the price, CCP should have no input on it whatsoever. Obviously this means my production costs will increase considerably, but in turn I will adjust my selling prices to suit.
Wrong. If trit "ceiling" price is removed, all you'll see is a crash of highends, and only a slight increase in production cost. The overall "basket price" of minerals remains nearly constant barring huge demand fluctuations (i.e. post-patch day, when everybody's scrambling, buying minerals and components to manufacture the newwly appeared ships and modules).
While this may be true in past circumstances and the market generally does structure in some way, it has also never had such a drastic change as the ceiling being removed from the most sought after mineral in Eve.
Sure, more people would mine it as profits for them would increase, and the price would filter back down a bit but calling my conclusion wrong is a very bold statement and one I would be happy to wager on not always being true.
When building capital ships you may see that the majority of costs do come from those lowends so even drastic changes in high ends (either positive or negative) have nowhere near the effect of a trit spike 50-90% above the norm.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.13 19:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ricdic Sure, more people would mine it as profits for them would increase, and the price would filter back down a bit but calling my conclusion wrong is a very bold statement and one I would be happy to wager on not always being true.
Only if tritanium ceiling (and just the tritanium ceiling) was removed is your conclusion wrong.
Originally by: Shadarle If all NPC refinable items were changed [...] without limits on the max prices of any minerals it would continue to spiral upwards, would it not?
Correct. If most ceilings were removed, not just the tritanium one, the basket price will start rising upwards too. _
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.14 04:43:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Akita T Only if tritanium ceiling (and just the tritanium ceiling) was removed is your conclusion wrong.
What other ceilings are in effect? I vaguely remember something about isogen but was under the impression that ceiling isn't hit until about 120 isk. I can't think of any others.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.14 05:34:00 -
[28]
Everything except morphite has a ceiling. However, only tritanium has a fully independent ceiling, all the rest are mixed-up together, the higher tier the mineral, the more mix-ups you have. _
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2007.09.14 08:25:00 -
[29]
Has anyone looked at the relative values of the high-sec ores in relation to this (in terms of isk per m3, as that's what determines mining income). All the high-sec ores offer pretty much the same risk in terms of mining, so there should be no price distortion from that.
While there's always some difference between the ores, it's actually not that large - and from experience the best price seems to move cyclically around the ores - probably because miners don't refresh their assesment of which is the best ore frequently. These cycles seem to correspond well to cycles in the mineral prices.
The coupling array price cap on trit was also showed up clearly in the ore values, with veld sitting significantly below the others. With the price cap removed, I'd expect there to be an adjustment in ore values to bring veld back up to competitiveness, which if memory serves is at around 100isk/m3. This would result in a trit price of 3.3 isk. So I'm expecting we are likely to get close to the shuttle refine cap. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2007.09.14 08:50:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Akita T Everything except morphite has a ceiling. However, only tritanium has a fully independent ceiling, all the rest are mixed-up together, the higher tier the mineral, the more mix-ups you have.
I would presume that all other mineral ceilings are based on the tritanium value alone though.
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