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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
686
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Posted - 2012.02.14 15:34:00 -
[181] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Anyway I wonder wether bots could just hack the client memory to read whatever made "good asteroids" different from the "bad ones" (FAI, object X calling a different texture would mean that object X is the one to mine)...
Short answer - yes.
Making resource gathering more tedious/difficult just means that it's even more likely to be botted.
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Miss Whippy
Bloody Limeys
68
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Posted - 2012.02.14 16:33:00 -
[182] - Quote
I like this idea, I think it should go further with the random rares finds though. Maybe uncover some old artifacts and the like too?
Anyway, I also think a way needs to be found to give miners way of defending themselves in low-sec. It's soo easily vunerable to ninja kill miners, and not all the forces of EvE can stop such an attack in low-sec. I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how you could do this, but the pew pew dynamic of Low-sec is so dull and stale now. We need something to spruce it up. Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
Rhydic Ujbikist
Rock Rippers
0
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Posted - 2012.02.14 18:01:00 -
[183] - Quote
half of this idea was suggested earlier in this thread, but i want to add onto it
asteroids could vary in size and the amount of layers; a scanner could be introduced to show the depth and amount of layers of an asteroid
outer layers are, essentially, the worthless loose garbage on the top that hardly has any ore, and have no chance of having any high-density ores; could possibly have some chance to have metal scraps on them in high-combat belts? another module could be added that is basically a weak, wider tractor beam to suction up all the loose rock off the outer layer and collect the metal scraps
the middle layers have more valuable ore and the ore could be sporadically set throughout the layer, and have a very low chance of getting lower-end valuable high-density alloys
the inner layers would have higher concentrations of higher-end versions of the ore, and have a low chance to have a super-dense alloy
the way this could work is to get rid of asteroid rotation or create a function to orbit an asteroid at the exact speed it's rotating and allow the miners to choose the exact spot on the asteroid where mining lasers are activated
that way, you could actually tunnel straight into an asteroid to extract the minerals from the core and middle layers of the asteroid, which is supposedly what current lasers are doing
textures would obviously have to be redone as the ever-shifting shape of asteroids would make the current function of textures obsolete. the color of the asteroid could optionally change with depth, which would make it more visually interesting and help with immediate identification of how mined an asteroid is; every day at downtime existing layers could be improved in their mineral density and/or new layers could be added
this, implemented with the other things, would make it incredibly hard for bots to function at all, let alone effectively. the size, shape, density, and layer count of asteroids would be very diverse |
Blade N'Mare
Hard Rock University
0
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Posted - 2012.02.14 21:33:00 -
[184] - Quote
Change the refining system
Hisec ores only refine to the first 4 or 5 minerals Lowsec ores only refine to the next 4 Nullsec ores refine to the last 4 Mission loot / salvage / droids and anything built etc only return salvage that cannot be refined to base minerals
Change manufacturing
Meta 0 modules/ships/whatever can be made wholly from hisec minerals Meta 1 modules from mainly hisec minerals, with some salvage Meta 2 modules from some hisec and more salvage Meta 3 modules from some hisec, some salvage and some lowsec Meta 4 as above, but more of the lowsec minerals Meta 5+ needs a bit of everything, but the higher the Meta, the higher the proportion of nullsec minerals
If your toon wants to chill out in hisec with little stress, or you dont have the skills or support to survive lowsec or nullsec, no problem. Stay in hisec, but dont expect to make billions of Isk. If you want the big isk, or the nice shiny toys, be prepared to enter lowsec and nullsec, or pay a premium to those that will. This also keeps mission running as an important resourse gathering tool. More people will enter low and null chasing the isk, so PVPers will have more targets to pew pew.
As far as bots go, if anyone is doing repetitive task for more than 3 or so hours, the server can start a convo with them and ask a simple random question. "What ship are you running? What is your name? How many hi slots do you have?" It doesnt matter what it is, as long as it is based on the toon and ship they are in. Put a time limit of one hour to answer the question. This allows for afk miners. If the question is answered incorrectly, or isnt answered at all, send another one straight away. Any toon failing 3 in a month, suspend the account until they can demonstrate to CCP they are not bots. "Light a candle for the Sinners.-á Set the World on Fire." |
Ohanka
The Lone Patrol Tactical Narcotics Team
13
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Posted - 2012.02.14 22:22:00 -
[185] - Quote
Trainwreck McGee wrote:Make mining only at grav sites
make grav sites a gradient of okay to awesome in terms of oar composition and amount
This will increase exploration and make mining more satisfying
Then make mining more like gambling by making a small chance of getting big time minerals.
THIS is how you fix mining
o and botting will be tougher.
stupid, alot of people don't know how, or can't be arsed to learn how to scan. |
Miss Whippy
Bloody Limeys
88
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Posted - 2012.03.08 14:39:00 -
[186] - Quote
I've been thinking about this idea recently, and I'm not sure it's such a great solution after all.
I like the idea itself, but will it encourage miners to make use of lowsec and nullsec? Pretty much no, as it won't change the fact that miners are hideously vulnerable in these systems.
Any good mining idea needs to make lowsec and nullsec mining a realistic option. Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
Cipher Jones
344
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Posted - 2012.03.08 15:01:00 -
[187] - Quote
Mining can only be saved by thrashers and catalysts.
04:25:37 Notify Cipher Jones, criminals are not welcome here. Leave now or be destroyed. |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
372
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Posted - 2012.03.08 15:14:00 -
[188] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:I've been thinking about this idea recently, and I'm not sure it's such a great solution after all.
I like the idea itself, but will it encourage miners to make use of lowsec and nullsec? Pretty much no, as it won't change the fact that miners are hideously vulnerable in these systems.
Any good mining idea needs to make lowsec and nullsec mining a realistic option.
Sure it would involve a few new ships though. A new mining ship that is able to generate a bubble around the ship kinda like a warp disruption bubble. This will protect it from groups of 5 people. Groups of people higher than 5 will be able to burn down the bubble. (considering BC class dps) This could be a capital class mining ship or what ever since it is in low/null.
You can make up all kinds of ideas but CCP will never do them. Too many people will ***** etc. |
Nfp007
BloodLust Enterprises Apocalypse Now.
0
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Posted - 2012.03.08 16:38:00 -
[189] - Quote
when i saw this thread it remind me one interesting idea regarding the CAPTCHA against bot and add more fun in the game. Once I was playing a MMO Pirate game. You could do a lot of stuff there, but everything was connected with some kind of logic minigame. As example. You needed to load cannons in your ship. So you had to play a minigame of loading balls into the canon. When you reached next level the minigame changed and was harder. Another level and Harder again. You could be more effective on higher levels, but if you failed on high level, you failed bad. Some kind of minigame could be integrated in eve, putting bots out of the way for god :-) It would be like recognizing which asteroid spinning and aiming mining laser somewhere.. or optimizing mining laser circuits... or any other minigame or activity which does make a sense and is enterataining. And it should also include logical aspect so that bots wold fail hard. It would be also good to loose level when failing higher level a lot so you would then stick more on the level you like most as you are able to complete it.
this kind of minigames could be also incorporated in other things in eve, like cloak. After and hour of running cloak a minigame would popup. You have to complete the task in one hour or your cloak would be switched off. It will be switched off also when you would fail the minigame :-))
and this should be incorporated in any game activity which is abused by AFK or BOT. So after while there would be only real people playing the game and not BOTs or AFKers.
Regards
NFP |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
84
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Posted - 2012.03.08 17:00:00 -
[190] - Quote
Nfp007 wrote:when i saw this thread it remind me one interesting idea regarding the CAPTCHA against bot and add more fun in the game. Once I was playing a MMO Pirate game. You could do a lot of stuff there, but everything was connected with some kind of logic minigame. As example. You needed to load cannons in your ship. So you had to play a minigame of loading balls into the canon. When you reached next level the minigame changed and was harder. Another level and Harder again. You could be more effective on higher levels, but if you failed on high level, you failed bad. Some kind of minigame could be integrated in eve, putting bots out of the way for god :-) It would be like recognizing which asteroid spinning and aiming mining laser somewhere.. or optimizing mining laser circuits... or any other minigame or activity which does make a sense and is enterataining. And it should also include logical aspect so that bots wold fail hard. It would be also good to loose level when failing higher level a lot so you would then stick more on the level you like most as you are able to complete it.
this kind of minigames could be also incorporated in other things in eve, like cloak. After and hour of running cloak a minigame would popup. You have to complete the task in one hour or your cloak would be switched off. It will be switched off also when you would fail the minigame :-))
and this should be incorporated in any game activity which is abused by AFK or BOT. So after while there would be only real people playing the game and not BOTs or AFKers.
Regards
NFP
I love your optimism but you know all thise things you can do.... someone with sufficient programming knowledge could make a bot do that. |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1069
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Posted - 2012.03.08 17:08:00 -
[191] - Quote
Moved from General Discussion. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Grumpy Owly
306
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Posted - 2012.03.08 17:46:00 -
[192] - Quote
For reference with this posting: The Mining Buff Fallacy
As to simply asking CCP to provide a monopoly on gaming features and completley remove any semblance of a free and competative market that should remain directly influenced by "player choices", one of the greatest strengths and appeals with EvE gameplay I might stress. I would say you are prescribing a viewed transition for how the game is supposed to be played as a result rather then the current view that players to some extent have some free reign in sculpting and influencing how New Eden operates. This whilst already having a game that deliniates resources opportunities already in favour of the null environment, but isn't being fully utilised. (See linked thread for redistribution of minerals, drone poo and other points associated.) Bounty Hunting for CSM 7
Stop EvE Apathy |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
50
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Posted - 2012.03.08 18:17:00 -
[193] - Quote
The best part of the OP: replace item drops with BP drops.
If the game depends more heavily on mining, you can bet that more people will mine. |
Tsijha Zirud
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.03.08 21:55:00 -
[194] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:The best part of the OP: replace item drops with BP drops.
If the game depends more heavily on mining, you can bet that more people will mine.
Or mineral prices will rise high enough for more people gruntingly agree to mine more, time to stock up on large smart bombs then. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
61
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Posted - 2012.03.08 22:00:00 -
[195] - Quote
Sounds like a great idea. Bots will always find a way, but anything that makes mining more interesting is great in my book.
now all we need is a better null sec miner and we are all set.
I would love to see a capital mining laser that can be equipped on a Dread.
Same yield as a Strip miners but a Dread can equip 4.
instant solo null sec miner. Massive tank, slightly better yield than a HULK and not available in high sec.
Except for maybe the Veldnaught. |
tomato1
Drama Llamas
3
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Posted - 2012.03.09 05:42:00 -
[196] - Quote
How do we do this? The EPIC WIN, I say. What if, while mining some basic ore, you have a chance, however small, of mining some exceedingly valuable alloy or mineral (or whatever)? What if it was valuable simply because it had attributes that were completely unattainable via any other means? Like mineral compression for instance? What if while mining Trit you happen to see some "super-ultra-mega-compressed-hyper-density-quantum-tritanium" (I just made that up by the way) pop up in your cargo hold? What if this stuff converted to 10 MILLION Trit per unit, and you just got 10 units of it in your cargo bay? And guess what the best part is? Each unit only takes up 10m3.
i dont think it should be rarity of rich deposits that make it intresting i think in sence should be a regular thing in sence that as many have said that it needs to be interactive i would like the hulk changed some thing like perhaps astroids are bigger and your ship attaches to the rock you have to scope out the vains of ore and then you have to scan it place the lazor drill and that one cycle would give you enough isk to make you happy and perhaps you have things like crystals breaking if you dont do it quite right im not sure but takes skill..."human skill"..... point being like everyone has said afk mining at least this way you feel like you did something |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
51
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Posted - 2012.03.09 13:46:00 -
[197] - Quote
Tsijha Zirud wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:The best part of the OP: replace item drops with BP drops.
If the game depends more heavily on mining, you can bet that more people will mine. Or mineral prices will rise high enough for more people gruntingly agree to mine more, time to stock up on large smart bombs then. There are enough people who actually enjoy mining (even in the current implementation) that people who don't want to mine won't have to. |
Tsijha Zirud
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.03.09 16:01:00 -
[198] - Quote
Then perhaps mining doesn't need to be saved, instead current being accomplished by a in system space environment that in it's behaviour towards the ship resembles the behaviour of a river, lake, sea or ocean towards a human body with a complex and dynamic rogue drone environmet is a better idea.
It might even be possible to introduce space whales ... as titanic mother drones.
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Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
51
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Posted - 2012.03.09 16:09:00 -
[199] - Quote
Even people who enjoy mining will be put off from it if the payout is too low. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
152
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Posted - 2012.03.09 18:28:00 -
[200] - Quote
Rubber asteroids.
If you want to catch bots, just use decoy asteroids. It doesn't matter if they hit it first or last, but the mining lasers will only move one unit of ore per cycle. This should result in it taking until downtime on a single rock.
Part two of the trick, make it a pit trap. Once mining the rock starts, have it spawn copies of itself.
Make the real asteroids visually identifiable, with the fake ones being obvious. Tweak so bots have a very hard time telling the difference. |
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Bridget Banks
Mirrage Inc.
5
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Posted - 2012.03.10 17:12:00 -
[201] - Quote
+1 |
Danny Husk
EVE University Ivy League
17
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Posted - 2012.03.10 18:41:00 -
[202] - Quote
The slag idea has some merit. Fields could become much larger, with a lot more rocks, but have about the same amount of "live" ore in them which you can find only with a survey scanner. Something like 80-90% dead rocks would be plenty to make blind botting a waste of time.
It seems possible to create some sort of captcha-like display of rock "quality" to defeat bots; so have the server send back a package of heavily randomized data that resolves to a small image showing the "density" of ore in a rock, which is easy to visually interpret, but which due to the randomization would be hard or impossible to memory pick or screen scrape. If it used a "heat map" with a random color palette or intersecting lines and shapes, then "density" could be quick and simple for a human eye to read from it, but it would be harder (at least as hard as the usual captcha anyway) to read programatically. |
Danny Husk
EVE University Ivy League
17
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Posted - 2012.03.10 18:52:00 -
[203] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Make the real asteroids visually identifiable, with the fake ones being obvious. Tweak so bots have a very hard time telling the difference. It might be possible. Memory scraping bots probably might still be able to tell by checking which "set" of textures the client is using to render each rock; and there would be a pretty finite set for art assets. Any simple visual indication like color map would probably be easy to pick out in memory as well, since there would be some set of integers somewhere telling the client "make this rock green" "make this one red."
The same applies to equally good ideas like spin rate, gold flecks, whatever; at some level the client is still going to be mapping numbers sent by the server to art assets stored locally, allowing a bot to memory pick the "ID" or set of IDs that correspond to "make this rock look fake" "make this one look good." Randomizing rock textures at the server level, so that the client gets a pile of graphical data that is hard to programatically break down, is probably not an option. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
310
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Posted - 2012.03.10 19:01:00 -
[204] - Quote
Danny Husk wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Make the real asteroids visually identifiable, with the fake ones being obvious. Tweak so bots have a very hard time telling the difference. It might be possible. Memory scraping bots probably might still be able to tell by checking which "set" of textures the client is using to render each rock; and there would be a pretty finite set for art assets. Any simple visual indication like color map would probably be easy to pick out in memory as well, since there would be some set of integers somewhere telling the client "make this rock green" "make this one red." Randomizing rock textures at the server level, so that the client gets a pile of graphical data that is hard to programatically break down, is probably not an option.
This is something I stated earlier, whatever the server tells to the client about an asteroid, it can be read from the client memory, and thus is useful to the bots unless it is something a bot couldn't interpretate. EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% non-Highsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-á |
Danny Husk
EVE University Ivy League
17
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Posted - 2012.03.10 19:07:00 -
[205] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:This is something I stated earlier, whatever the server tells to the client about an asteroid, it can be read from the client memory, and thus is useful to the bots unless it is something a bot couldn't interpretate. True. A small captcha graphic generated on the fly server side, representing rock "quality," and only sent to the client when a survey scan is run, would probably be the only workable option.
If you want to get really fancy about it; make it so that the mapping of which rocks are "live" and which are "dead" in terms of yield is client specific, and persists only until the client warps out of the belt. That would also defeat people who fly ahead of a bot horde fleet-tagging roids for the bots to come and eat, since the set of rocks that will be live for the scout will be different from the set that would be live for any one of the bots. |
specializt
Angry Angels Constructions The Kadeshi
1
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Posted - 2012.05.28 00:21:00 -
[206] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:a lot of wondeful stuff
i would like to marry you. |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
484
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Posted - 2012.05.28 00:44:00 -
[207] - Quote
specializt wrote:Mors Sanctitatis wrote:a lot of wondeful stuff i would like to marry you.
LOL. :) Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |
Elisa Fir
Luminoctis
11
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Posted - 2012.05.28 17:49:00 -
[208] - Quote
+1 and a free bumb; this thread deserves some Dev attention. |
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
17
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Posted - 2012.05.28 18:01:00 -
[209] - Quote
Greetings
Not a completely crap idea.
vr East IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES: -á" I drank WHAT?!" |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
161
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Posted - 2012.05.28 20:57:00 -
[210] - Quote
your intuition idea was at least interesting. but no go.. bots can just use the survey scanner to find the roid with the ore in it.
captcha or what ever it;s called is just a bad idea.. it would make life harder for the miners who don't bot ... right now.. making things tougher on miners would be a stupid idea. With the new inventory system bloat, with the orca hanger nerf disallowing alliance mates from using orca hangers, with the rorq no longer providing it's booster off grid, with the longer hulkageddon, and still no dedicated gas harvesting ship, miners are not feeling much love from anyone right now.
The rare drop thing is nice.. it works on the pavlovian principle of conditioning to make us addicts though.. If it never drops anything good you won't do it.. If it drops every time you hit a rock you won't do it. If it drops occasionally you'll mine all day to get the rare drops. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
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