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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
specializt
Angry Angels Constructions The Kadeshi
2
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Posted - 2012.05.28 21:44:00 -
[211] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:with the rorq no longer providing it's booster off grid Uh ... i dont know on which server you play on but on Tranquiliy the boost still is system-wide. They would cripple mining seriously if they'd do that. Get your "facts" straight |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
488
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Posted - 2012.05.28 22:15:00 -
[212] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:your intuition idea was at least interesting. but no go.. bots can just use the survey scanner to find the roid with the ore in it.
captcha or what ever it;s called is just a bad idea.. it would make life harder for the miners who don't bot ... right now.. making things tougher on miners would be a stupid idea. With the new inventory system bloat, with the orca hanger nerf disallowing alliance mates from using orca hangers, with the rorq no longer providing it's booster off grid, with the longer hulkageddon, and still no dedicated gas harvesting ship, miners are not feeling much love from anyone right now.
The rare drop thing is nice.. it works on the pavlovian principle of conditioning to make us addicts though.. If it never drops anything good you won't do it.. If it drops every time you hit a rock you won't do it. If it drops occasionally you'll mine all day to get the rare drops.
Small minds... lol. Of course, details like survey scanners would be modified to accommodate the new design. Clearly, bots wouldn't simply be able to use a survey scanner to bypass the game design. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |
Tychus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.05.28 22:37:00 -
[213] - Quote
I feel that mining is so boring that it causes repetitive stress injury to the brain.
The only way it's palatable to me is if i have a movie or show on my other monitor. Is that worth paying $15 a month for? Early in the thread someone mentioned the task was so boring/repetitive it deserved botting, and i have to respectfully agree. It's essentially less interactive then minesweeper. At least in minesweeper you're active until you finish or mis-click and die. Adding more technical layers just adds to the amount of time and preparation we have to spend before we can click f-buttons on 'roids.
So i propose a different take on mining that i'm sure will make everyone roll their eyes: Bumping rocks.
Eve has a physics model that allows for ship bumping- i've done that plenty. Now lets apply this to 'roids. I could fit strippers, but if i have friends i could take up all my high slots with "Superconducting Magnetic Grapples" that allow me to bump the rocks into a nearby Orca. A few considerations:
1. Mining is no longer just mining. Don't like me pushing your rocks? Get your own Retriever with grapples and push rocks towards your corp's Orca. We're not miners, we're Tritanium rugby players! 2. The Orca would live up up its name, as it could "swallow " larger rocks as the pilot became more skilled. 3. The Orca pilot would just dump the rocks at the station, and since the system knows the size of the 'roids they would be converted into the appropriate volume of ore. 4. Bots could not compete with a "'roid rugby team" due to bots lacking 3-d spacial awareness. 5. A large team could swallow a belt mighty quick, but a large group of miners does that anyway, don't they? 6. Maybe only let mag grapples work in .8 or less systems so true noobs get some ore...
I know its silly. But i bet it would be fun. Maybe we could have leagues.....
T |
MortisLegati
Caldari War Materiel
8
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Posted - 2012.05.30 13:19:00 -
[214] - Quote
I'm with the OP in saying that industry needs an immediate overhaul. I came to a sudden realization talking with my friends (who play more RIFT than EVE nowadays) that their new gathering mechanic, fishing, was more entertaining and engaging than mining. It was sad. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
290
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Posted - 2012.05.30 14:15:00 -
[215] - Quote
good idea. +1 I dont do mining but it all sounds like a well thought out concept. |
Edward Khurelem
NIGHTMARE FACTORY INDUSTRIES ROL.Citizens
4
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Posted - 2012.05.31 04:20:00 -
[216] - Quote
I can honestly say that mining continously for a year (since I started) I have never thought that mining was boring rather relaxing. I like mining because a) I am a full-time uni student with a busy assignment schedule in which I don't have time to pay 100% attention to EVE b) its one of those things that you can switch your brain off for 3 - 4 hours (example) and just chill watching local and watching a movie/completing assignments etc at the same time. c) I like to watch things grow especially my wallet. d) I don't like blowing things up, I always feel sorry for the other person that I destroyed an asset of theirs.
But in saying all of that, Most of your suggestions, like getting a mega-ultimate etc ore that contains better than normal yield would make my wallet grow even bigger so I +1 to that.
Other suggestions like making it more like the PI is interesting to say the least but practically I don't see how it would work the way you said it. The only way this could work is if that there was permanent/achorable mining structures that could be placed on these huge asteroids (un-mininable except through structures) that were bought from a governing body that was yours and yours alone to some extent (they could be taken over through advanced scanning). Its something like what you see in the Planetary interaction aspect of this game of having gathers, silos that you can see as well as supply chains to get the minerals from your gathers to your silos to your pickup/delivery box. These structures would be something that you can see (and naturally would have to put some sort of defences against rats) and through better skills you can create practically create a whole new complex level to mining of best being able to manage your "mIning outpost" as i like to call it.
Not saying that you should totally overthrow the current mining as I actually enjoy it the way it is.
Feel free to tear what i said to bits :) I like criticism
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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
577
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Posted - 2012.05.31 04:31:00 -
[217] - Quote
Tychus wrote:I feel that mining is so boring that it causes repetitive stress injury to the brain . The only way it's palatable to me is if i have a movie or show on my other monitor. Is that worth paying $15 a month for? Early in the thread someone mentioned the task was so boring/repetitive it deserved botting, and i have to respectfully agree. It's essentially less interactive then minesweeper. At least in minesweeper you're active until you finish or mis-click and die. Adding more technical layers just adds to the amount of time and preparation we have to spend before we can click f-buttons on 'roids. So i propose a different take on mining that i'm sure will make everyone roll their eyes: Bumping rocks. Eve has a physics model that allows for ship bumping- i've done that plenty. Now lets apply this to 'roids. I could fit strippers, but if i have friends i could take up all my high slots with "Superconducting Magnetic Grapples" that allow me to bump the rocks into a nearby Orca. A few considerations: 1. Mining is no longer just mining. Don't like me pushing your rocks? Get your own Retriever with grapples and push rocks towards your corp's Orca. We're not miners, we're Tritanium rugby players! 2. The Orca would live up up its name, as it could "swallow " larger rocks as the pilot became more skilled. 3. The Orca pilot would just dump the rocks at the station, and since the system knows the size of the 'roids they would be converted into the appropriate volume of ore. 4. Bots could not compete with a "'roid rugby team" due to bots lacking 3-d spacial awareness. 5. A large team could swallow a belt mighty quick, but a large group of miners does that anyway, don't they? 6. Maybe only let mag grapples work in .8 or less systems so true noobs get some ore... I know its silly. But i bet it would be fun. Maybe we could have leagues..... T
This is pretty good. "Tritanium rugby players"- I love it lol. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |
Leto Aramaus
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
58
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Posted - 2012.05.31 12:58:00 -
[218] - Quote
mullet nugget wrote: it's like they are more concerned with collecting the botter's monthly fees than pleasing the people who play the game to have fun.
Duh |
Jebediah MacAhab Dallocort
The Scope Gallente Federation
178
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Posted - 2012.05.31 13:25:00 -
[219] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
Bots shouldn't be able to tell what the roid has in it; Only the server should know, up until the lasers finish cycling and you get your first lumps of slag in your cargo hold. This is basic client/server architecture, here: Only tell the client what it needs to know. How to Improve Quality Assurance at CCP
Professional Programmer, DBA, Game Developer and Systems Analyst |
Austin Knight
Principle Investments Etc. Punkz 'n Monkeys
1
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Posted - 2012.06.01 00:05:00 -
[220] - Quote
Just chiming in to support this/these ideas...especially those suggestions to turn mining into a more active sport, reduce botting, and create something like a Prospecting Profession. I began EVE life as a miner and am highly skilled at it, but haven't tapped a rock in over a year due to the mindless "harvesting" aspect of it. If it were possible to Prospect for rich ores and/or lucrative but labor intensive ore fields, and then have the option to harvest myself (when I find that especially tasty rock) or sell/contract the locations/BM's to those lucrative "ore fields" that don't interest me personally as a mostly solo player due to the time involved in harvesting the rocks, but which might interest a group operation...I would totally get back into it. I enjoy exploration...but don't do that much anymore either due the the very high frequency of WHs one finds...and although they can ofc be lucrative, I'd prefer to find Mag/Radar sites for the quick PVE/Quick Harvest aspect of them. Prospecting for rich ores/lucrative ore clumps would be interesting to me.
/me supporting this thread
Please consider working some of these suggestions into the game mechanics CCP. |
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Andre II
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
59
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Posted - 2012.06.03 20:18:00 -
[221] - Quote
I really think it's a good idea, but would it really work? All someone with a bot would have to do if mine the whole belt and go on. |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
361
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Posted - 2012.06.03 21:12:00 -
[222] - Quote
I was expecting another stupid manifesto/proposal regarding mining, came surprised.
Definitely love the idea. Maybe needs a few tweaks and details, but the concept is solid. +1 "Eve isnGÇÖt some welcoming online utopia: itGÇÖs cut-throat, cruel, atavistic despite the futuristic setting. Give people a sandbox, and theyGÇÖll throw the sand in a rivalGÇÖs eyes before kicking them in the shins and destroying their sandcastle." -Keza MacDonald, IGN. |
Drakarin
Omnitech Corporation Wonder Kids
8
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Posted - 2012.06.04 06:30:00 -
[223] - Quote
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:decent idea, but if only 5% of the asteroids had any ores then only really advanced miners would ever get anything. All those people who have trained for their precious hulks would get all the minerals, and the newer players wouldnt have a chance. great idea otherwise, but maybe that one thing should be changed to like, one third of the asteroids have ores, and there should be a LOT more asteroids. we dont need the amount of ores in the game to drop, it would cause some problems.
Actually no, it would fix them.
I'd rather losing a ship be the painful part of death instead of a negative mark on your KB ratio.
No one cares about losing ships when they have a thousand drakes stored across their account. People hoard, because ships are being created far far too quickly relative to how fast they are being destroyed.
This is an especially big problem for super capitals.
As for the OPs idea, I love it. I hate mining myself, it's boring beyond belief. This wouldn't really change that for me, as 99% of the time I'd still just be sitting there watching a module icon cycle; but at least it would make it a bit more interesting for people who somehow enjoy it now.
Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
A program complex enough to actively scan direct memory from EvE should be fairly easy to detect on a person's computer, no? CCP should routinely scan for these programs when people are playing their game.
Likely the only way to truly stop bots. |
Drakarin
Omnitech Corporation Wonder Kids
8
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Posted - 2012.06.04 07:19:00 -
[224] - Quote
Janus Nightmare wrote:Etaoin Shrdxv wrote:I support this thread.
TLDR for lazy devs and csms:
1. Convert rogue drones to pure bounties. 2. Convert mission drops to meta 1d4 bpc's. 3. Establish loot tables with rare drops for miners (for example, a high density refinable that procs about 0.0001 times per mining cycle.) 4. Change the structure of mining to make it fundamentally unbottable. 5. Move a large majority of belts to dynamic grav sites or similar that must be scanned down.
Of these, #1, #2, and #5 can definitely be implemented with existing technology, and by themselves would make EVE a better, more robust game. Gameplay for miners would be much improved.
Keep brainstorming, everyone! I disagree with the underlined part for one reason, and perhaps it's a selfish one. I mine because it's something I can do casually while working on my laptop or another pc. I realize that's not necessarily the way it was intended, but I don't often have the time to completely, actively play and make enough ISK to buy PLEX. By mining while I'm working, I can make enough to buy PLEX for both of my accounts so that when I do get some free time to actually play the game, I can do it. Some of the suggestions, while not bad, would make it more difficult for casual players like me who can't devote every bit of attention to the screen while mining. Now, I know people are going to ride my arse for my comments, and that's fine. Just for the record, I'm not saying that mining needs to be a perfectly safe carebear activity. Not at all, and I've been ganked several times while mining and realize it's likely going to happen again. I'm just pointing out that you don't want to "improve gameplay" for miners too much because it would make it far more difficult for casual players like me to keep playing the game at all. All I'm saying is that there needs to be a balance, because let's face it, some of us like the boring aspect of mining. If I am going to spend more time scanning down grav sights (which I admit I'm not very good at) then I only ask that you make it worthwhile, and have enough ore in there that I can't deplete it with a couple of Hulks inside of an hour like I can some current asteroid belts. I'm not saying I disagree with the concept, just be careful to keep a good balance so it doesn't drive the casual player like me away.
I don't feel like a game feature that allows one to AFK at work and yet still make a billion isk a month is good at all. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
203
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Posted - 2012.06.05 15:34:00 -
[225] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:your intuition idea was at least interesting. but no go.. bots can just use the survey scanner to find the roid with the ore in it.
captcha or what ever it;s called is just a bad idea.. it would make life harder for the miners who don't bot ... right now.. making things tougher on miners would be a stupid idea. With the new inventory system bloat, with the orca hanger nerf disallowing alliance mates from using orca hangers, with the rorq no longer providing it's booster off grid, with the longer hulkageddon, and still no dedicated gas harvesting ship, miners are not feeling much love from anyone right now.
The rare drop thing is nice.. it works on the pavlovian principle of conditioning to make us addicts though.. If it never drops anything good you won't do it.. If it drops every time you hit a rock you won't do it. If it drops occasionally you'll mine all day to get the rare drops. Small minds... lol. Of course, details like survey scanners would be modified to accommodate the new design. Clearly, bots wouldn't simply be able to use a survey scanner to bypass the game design.
how clearly? So survey scanners would have to be crippled? I'm not sure I'm understanding you. if a player can use a modiified scanner wouldn't a bot be able to?
Quote:Small minds... lol. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Kimmi Chan
Illuminatus Reforged The Revenant Order
215
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Posted - 2012.06.29 03:20:00 -
[226] - Quote
Mors,
I've read the OP and will start reading the rest but I wanted to run this by you and get your thoughts in terms of making mining less boring and removing the AFK miner.
Mining Lasers have a max range AND a minimum range - say 5k min and 15k max. As you mine, the asteroid moves closer to your ship. If it comes too close the mining laser shuts down and the asteroid drifts back towards it's starting position. So essentially, mining becomes about "juggling" asteroids.
A narrative:
I land on grid in an asteroid belt. Do a little surveying and pick out 1 or 2 rocks to mine. I target them once I am inside my 15km range and fire up the miners. As I continue to mine the rocks drift towards my ship. Knowing that once they get inside 5km my lasers will shut off and I will lose a cycle I lock up two other rocks and once the first targets are getting close to 5km, I train the lasers on the new targets and mine those while the original rocks drift back to their original position.
Another thought might be heat.
As I mine an asteroid, heat builds up and if not allowed to cool off the asteroid could break apart releasing harmful explosive gases that damage my ship.
I think these types of things could really make mining a more engaging activity and would do much to eliminate the AFK miner who pays or plexes to not play the game. -á"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus |
Deckard BladeRun
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.06.29 06:19:00 -
[227] - Quote
WARNING!!! Noobs prospective providing noob input.
How about having mining be very in depth. Where asteroids have different spots that require different amounts of power used from the laser. As you drill into it you might hit a rough spot and have to increase the mining lasers power then hit a soft spot and have to decrease the power of the lasers. If you do not actively control the lasers they overheat and stop working. Some cool probing style analysis of an asteroid showing the different angles of the rock and maybe have to adjust different settings on your mining lasers.
I am a noob but I did the probing tutorial and it is AMAZINGLY in Depth. You can individually control all these different probes, and each probe can be moved anywhere in the entire freaking solar system in full 3 dimensions, and each individual probe has its own range that can be adjusted, such an incredible variety for something as simple as scanning and probing.
Yet when I have tried the mining it is lock onto asteroid, maybe scan it to see how much ore it contains, move ship into range, hit mining laser, wait for lasers to finish. Maybe transfer ore from a hold to a jetcan, maybe just fill up the hold. That is lame. Maybe get the person responsible for the awesome probing to do some awesome work on mining.
Why can't mining have the amazing intricacy and depth of probing? Analyze the roid, which side would be best to drill from? I need to start out at 85% power because this is a thick tough spot to start drilling but will get me to the meat faster and more efficiently in the long run. Ok I am into the soft density. My meter is going int the blue zone time to drop the power down. 60%....still dropping....reduce power of drill 2 to 35%.....nice...perfect...good job crew.
Maybe people don't WANT mining to be more intricate and in depth. Maybe they like being lazy :( I for one subscribed to this game because I want a challenge. Mining just seems kind of bleh. Even hauling seems more exciting. |
Zaltone
Cur Dogs Incorporated United Sovereigns Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.06.29 20:53:00 -
[228] - Quote
What if when you engage the lasers you get a close up of the asteroid and you manually have to move your mouse and cut the ore out. So a shape appears on the asteroid and you have trace it with your mouse if your trace it perfect you get a perfect yield if you don't you get a slightly less yield and if you don't trace it you get half normal yield or none. Make the shapes random and keep the 3 minute cycle and see how much ore you can cut out in that amount of time or till your cargo hold is full. This makes mining way more interactive and better performance would equals more yield.
i at least think this would be more entertaining.
Also maybe as you get to hard types of ore the shapes disappear leave you try and guess the best way to cut it or use like a sensor thing, like we do for pi to see where the best minerals and and have manually cut it out from the asteroid I think the key would be having the player manually cut the ore from the asteroids. I think removing the drone poo was a right step and this would remove the bots i think. Making the belts only easier to find grav sites could make things harder for bots so you have to scan to find a belt before you can start mining. The Dominix is always, the answer the question doesnt matter!!!!!
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Zaltone
Cur Dogs Incorporated United Sovereigns Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.06.29 20:55:00 -
[229] - Quote
Deckard BladeRun wrote:WARNING!!! Noobs prospective providing noob input.
How about having mining be very in depth. Where asteroids have different spots that require different amounts of power used from the laser. As you drill into it you might hit a rough spot and have to increase the mining lasers power then hit a soft spot and have to decrease the power of the lasers. If you do not actively control the lasers they overheat and stop working. Some cool probing style analysis of an asteroid showing the different angles of the rock and maybe have to adjust different settings on your mining lasers.
I am a noob but I did the probing tutorial and it is AMAZINGLY in Depth. You can individually control all these different probes, and each probe can be moved anywhere in the entire freaking solar system in full 3 dimensions, and each individual probe has its own range that can be adjusted, such an incredible variety for something as simple as scanning and probing.
Yet when I have tried the mining it is lock onto asteroid, maybe scan it to see how much ore it contains, move ship into range, hit mining laser, wait for lasers to finish. Maybe transfer ore from a hold to a jetcan, maybe just fill up the hold. That is lame. Maybe get the person responsible for the awesome probing to do some awesome work on mining.
Why can't mining have the amazing intricacy and depth of probing? Analyze the roid, which side would be best to drill from? I need to start out at 85% power because this is a thick tough spot to start drilling but will get me to the meat faster and more efficiently in the long run. Ok I am into the soft density. My meter is going int the blue zone time to drop the power down. 60%....still dropping....reduce power of drill 2 to 35%.....nice...perfect...good job crew.
Maybe people don't WANT mining to be more intricate and in depth. Maybe they like being lazy :( I for one subscribed to this game because I want a challenge. Mining just seems kind of bleh. Even hauling seems more exciting.
Basically me and him had similar ideas I didnt read his post completely but I think this would make mining better. The Dominix is always, the answer the question doesnt matter!!!!!
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Nicolas Warrilow
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2012.06.29 21:24:00 -
[230] - Quote
When someone mentioned a Faction-equivalent mining ore, I thought that maybe they could go the route of placing such asteroids in Gravimetric sites and much like doing exploration to find rare mods, specific asteroids with these special rare ores could exist the the Gravimetric sites. |
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