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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
194
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
In the 7+ years I've played this game, I think I might have mined maybe twice. Max. It was not for me. That being said, mining is one of the most important and fundamental aspects of Eve and it has never been improved upon since the start of the game. I'd like to share my thoughts on why it's so important and what could be done to revitalize this lackluster and horribly unrewarding profession.
A few quick thoughts:
Mining is generally boring.
Mining is rife with bots.
Mining is marginalized by other mineral streams, namely Rogue Drones and T1 loot drops.
Mining is also the foundation upon which all production is based and is the key logistical resource that should be managed to ensure winning any large scale conflict.
Let's get the easy stuff out of the way first: Get rid of ALL other mineral streams other than through the express act of mining. Will this cause some short term mineral shortages? Sure, but it won't last more than a month. I have faith in my fellow (extremely greedy) Eve players and I'm sure that when Trit hits 400+ ISK/unit we'll see all the PVPers and mission runners out there in a shiny new mining barge trying to cash in while it lasts. In short: remove Rogue drones as a source of minerals (convert them to bounties) and change all T1 loot drops to limited run BPCs for named modules (turning a mineral faucet into a mineral sink in the process).
Now something a little more complicated: make mining FUN.
How do we do this? The EPIC WIN, I say. What if, while mining some basic ore, you have a chance, however small, of mining some exceedingly valuable alloy or mineral (or whatever)? What if it was valuable simply because it had attributes that were completely unattainable via any other means? Like mineral compression for instance? What if while mining Trit you happen to see some "super-ultra-mega-compressed-hyper-density-quantum-tritanium" (I just made that up by the way) pop up in your cargo hold? What if this stuff converted to 10 MILLION Trit per unit, and you just got 10 units of it in your cargo bay? And guess what the best part is? Each unit only takes up 10m3.
Now you have something that is extremely valuable because it has a special quality, but the original use/intent of the material remains the same. Furthermore, the value added to the material is a one time use, one way mechanic (once it's refined, you lose the compression), but the value to people who need to transport vast amounts of ore will be dramatic. Not to mention that you just scored 100 million units of Trit in a single mining cycle that is worth 400M+ ISK on the market.
Such drops would be rare, and there would be various levels of similar drops with varying degrees of probability, but the point is that the possibility would be there. An event like that would really stand out in a player's memory- it would be an EVENT. "Man, remember that time when we found that crazy 20 unit deposit of super-ultra-mega-compressed-hyper-density-quantum-tritanium?! IT WAS AWESOME! I'M RICH!!!" <<<< That my friends is what is missing from mining.
The lower the sec, the better the chances of striking it rich. Again, 10m compression super ore would be hyper rare- the equivalent of a top officer spawn. But you get the idea.
Destroy the bots.
This is the most important part.
Every time someone posts about mining and bots, it doesn't take too long before someone talks about a captcha test to "make sure" there's a person behind the mining. I think that they're right in concept, but wrong on execution.
Bots are good at analyzing data, doing repetitive tasks as fast as possible and so on, but with the concept of a captcha, a designer is trying to break the bot with a mechanic that it's not good at: visual decoding.
But what if there was another area that bots weren't good at? Say... intuition?
What if 95% of the ore in a belt were concentrated in 5% of the asteroids? Same yield per belt, same time taken to mine the minerals etc., but the difference is that for every rock that has minerals in it, there are 9 that don't. The human operator could pick out the rocks with the minerals in them because say, all the rocks had a spin rate, generated in a random direction and axis, but the mineral-laden rocks have a spin rate that is 50% faster than barren rocks. Or maybe mineral laden rocks have more "gold flecks" in the texture, maybe 25% more, or the gold flecks are in a more veined pattern than on the other barren rocks.
There is an impossible number of visual cues and variations that could be implemented to allow players to pick out what rocks have ore in them and which one's do not. My goal here is to incorporate the idea of a VISUAL CAPTCHA in concept right into the rocks themselves, so that it's transparent and players don't even notice that they're doing it. They're simply picking out the "good ones" and leaving the rest behind! Like, you know, being a REAL MINER FOR ONCE!!!
The game designers could make the coloration even more subtle, so that the best and most experienced miners could cherry pick the belts of the choicest rocks by discerning combinations of spin rate (denser ore = faster spin) and subtle variations in the asteroid texture and coloration (this one has specs of gold ore on the surface, but this other one has spider-like veins of black and silver ore woven through it etc...). This INVOLVES THE PLAYER IN THE PROCESS. It makes it engaging and fun. If you're smart and experienced, your production per hour could be dramatically higher than a "noob".
If you've read this far, I congratulate you. Thank you for your time and attention. I look forward to constructive posts on this topic. No, it doesn't belong in "Features and Ideas". GD has more views and this isn't about a feature, it's about fixing the game as a holistic system.
So, let's hear it! Thoughts? I'm a pirate in a pirate's body.-áIntelligence shouldn't be free... |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
881
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
there's a features and ideas forum The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
194
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Morganta wrote:there's a features and ideas forum
Note the very last part of my post. I'm a pirate in a pirate's body.-áIntelligence shouldn't be free... |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Morganta wrote:there's a features and ideas forum Need to change your name to the "Morgarator".
Seems all you do is snipe posts all day playing at some kind of forum BOSS.
CCP job applications are that way
And OP: CSM minutes have drone lands nerfed. Might fix mining all by itself if the stats are to be believed. (70% of minerals is drones?) |
Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Actually that is a damned good idea! |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
784
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hainnz wrote:Actually that is a damned good idea!
Maybe. |
Doc Fury
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
246
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just because you're not happy with how many views you perceive this thread would get in Features and Ideas, that is exactly where it belongs.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.' |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Just because you're not happy with how many views you perceive this thread would get in Features and Ideas, that is exactly where it belongs.
So when CCP shift it there you can go "told ya so".
Thought police in Eve.
Who woulda thought......
|
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you're not trolling, I applaud your idea, it is good to see a long-time vet trying to help a facet of the game that they admit isn't the way they play the game rather than simply going the "HTFU and play the game my way" route.
I think the ideas you have presented are very good and should be seriously discussed by not only members of the community who consider themselves industrialists but also by CCP Devs as well.
Industry is in need of major overhaul, mining especially.
I especially like the idea of incorporating a "captcha-like" set of visual cues which require active involvement from the player. I also like the idea of having worthless "slag" asteroids in belts mixed in with the stuff that is actually valuable. I think that all of the different types of asteroids should still be labeled the same way that they currently are (to prevent people from just programming their bots to ignore all of the "slag" ores). You should be able to get minerals from all of the asteroids in a belt, but the slag ones should be a pittance (perhaps they only yield 1% of the typical yield).
IDK, I really hope that this gets a serious look by not only players but also by the Devs themselves. Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been |
Doc Fury
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
246
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
met worst wrote:Doc Fury wrote:Just because you're not happy with how many views you perceive this thread would get in Features and Ideas, that is exactly where it belongs.
So when CCP shift it there you can go "told ya so". Thought police in Eve. Who woulda thought......
if more people posted their stuff in there where it belongs, it would start getting more views from like-minded people who want to "share".
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.' |
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Famble
Three's a Crowd
259
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Just because you're not happy with how many views you perceive this thread would get in Features and Ideas, that is exactly where it belongs.
Doc get back on your lawn chair on the porch you old curmudgeon you!
I like the OP's vision, tweak as necessary but the vision is good. +1
If anyone ever looks at you and says, "Hold my beer, watch this,"-á you're probably going to want to pay attention. |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:met worst wrote:Doc Fury wrote:Just because you're not happy with how many views you perceive this thread would get in Features and Ideas, that is exactly where it belongs.
So when CCP shift it there you can go "told ya so". Thought police in Eve. Who woulda thought...... if more people posted their stuff in there where it belongs, it would start getting more views from like-minded people who want to "share". Then wtf would you, Morgs and a few other GD Police have to do all day?
Granted, I'm looking hard for forum mods lately but members pre-labelling every topic based on THEIR ideals is pretty lame. |
Kuroi Aurgnet
Guilt Brigade Blitzkrieg Federation Of The Dumpster Punchers
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
decent idea, but if only 5% of the asteroids had any ores then only really advanced miners would ever get anything. All those people who have trained for their precious hulks would get all the minerals, and the newer players wouldnt have a chance. great idea otherwise, but maybe that one thing should be changed to like, one third of the asteroids have ores, and there should be a LOT more asteroids. we dont need the amount of ores in the game to drop, it would cause some problems. |
mullet nugget
Funk Soul Brothers Shadow of xXDEATHXx
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
these are some really good ideas. however mining has been improved several times since the beginning. orcas, ore compression, etc.
that being said, the bots are THE main problem. it's f'ing ridiculous how lenient CCP is on these people. it's like they are more concerned with collecting the botter's monthly fees than pleasing the people who play the game to have fun. |
Macks Artilius
Definitive Exploration and Excavations
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
I've always thought mining should be more about finding the good ore sources than actually extracting the ore, and this sounds like a great way to go about it.... except we already have survey scanners which tell us the exact yield of every asteroid.
Though I agree mining needs some sort of faction rat equivalent. |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
196
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Elessa Enaka wrote:If you're not trolling, I applaud your idea, it is good to see a long-time vet trying to help a facet of the game that they admit isn't the way they play the game rather than simply going the "HTFU and play the game my way" route.
I think the ideas you have presented are very good and should be seriously discussed by not only members of the community who consider themselves industrialists but also by CCP Devs as well.
Industry is in need of major overhaul, mining especially.
I especially like the idea of incorporating a "captcha-like" set of visual cues which require active involvement from the player. I also like the idea of having worthless "slag" asteroids in belts mixed in with the stuff that is actually valuable. I think that all of the different types of asteroids should still be labeled the same way that they currently are (to prevent people from just programming their bots to ignore all of the "slag" ores). You should be able to get minerals from all of the asteroids in a belt, but the slag ones should be a pittance (perhaps they only yield 1% of the typical yield).
IDK, I really hope that this gets a serious look by not only players but also by the Devs themselves.
#1. Totally not trolling.
#2. I agree that "slag" asteroids should give a small amount of the correct mineral, but only a very small amount (1%?).
#3. I fully intend for all asteroids of the same type to be named the same from an overview standpoint: i.e. Veldspar, regardless of how good it is. A bit like true sec for 0.0 perhaps?
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body.-áIntelligence shouldn't be free... |
SirFur
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 03:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
Macks Artilius wrote:I've always thought mining should be more about finding the good ore sources than actually extracting the ore, and this sounds like a great way to go about it.... except we already have survey scanners which tell us the exact yield of every asteroid.
Though I agree mining needs some sort of faction rat equivalent.
Survery scanners don't show yield.....they show quantity of ore.
Yield is what you will obtain once you refine the ore. The named versions of ore give you higher yields and at present you choose them based on name. If they all are named the same but the yield variant differences were made obvious in ''capcha form'' form than it would mean you could keep the ores pretty much as they are now except changing the names. You could add the 'slag' versions and more variants of each kind of ore using the capcha features, with the highest yield only available in null sec. With this you wouldn't need to add the extra chance drop - you can just add higher yield ores that visually look vastly different and better, but on overview or on scan the name of that asteroid is the same as the slag version. |
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 03:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:Elessa Enaka wrote:If you're not trolling, I applaud your idea, it is good to see a long-time vet trying to help a facet of the game that they admit isn't the way they play the game rather than simply going the "HTFU and play the game my way" route.
I think the ideas you have presented are very good and should be seriously discussed by not only members of the community who consider themselves industrialists but also by CCP Devs as well.
Industry is in need of major overhaul, mining especially.
I especially like the idea of incorporating a "captcha-like" set of visual cues which require active involvement from the player. I also like the idea of having worthless "slag" asteroids in belts mixed in with the stuff that is actually valuable. I think that all of the different types of asteroids should still be labeled the same way that they currently are (to prevent people from just programming their bots to ignore all of the "slag" ores). You should be able to get minerals from all of the asteroids in a belt, but the slag ones should be a pittance (perhaps they only yield 1% of the typical yield).
IDK, I really hope that this gets a serious look by not only players but also by the Devs themselves. #1. Totally not trolling. #2. I agree that "slag" asteroids should give a small amount of the correct mineral, but only a very small amount (1%?). #3. I fully intend for all asteroids of the same type to be named the same from an overview standpoint: i.e. Veldspar, regardless of how good it is. A bit like true sec for 0.0 perhaps?
Yeah, like true sec for 0.0 and keep that totally dark from any mods (like survey scanners that tell you the number of units of ore in the roids). The only way that you should be able to discern the "true yield" of the roid is by the visual cues of the roids themselves.
So, all of the veld in a belt is still labeled veld and the survey scanner might tell you that X number of units are in each roid, but it still can't tell you if that huge 110k unit veld roid is worthless or a jackpot roid; you could only tell that by actually looking at the roid and figuring out if it had the appropriate visual cues on its surface. So, if someone isn't paying attention (or perhaps a bot), they could mine that entire 110k roid and not find out that it was essentially worthless until they get it back to station and refine it.
I like it, it definitely still needs more work, but I really like this idea. Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
196
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 03:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:decent idea, but if only 5% of the asteroids had any ores then only really advanced miners would ever get anything. All those people who have trained for their precious hulks would get all the minerals, and the newer players wouldnt have a chance. great idea otherwise, but maybe that one thing should be changed to like, one third of the asteroids have ores, and there should be a LOT more asteroids. we dont need the amount of ores in the game to drop, it would cause some problems.
A few quick comments:
All numbers and ratios aren't fixed- they're just examples to illustrate the point. I agree that a 60/30% split might be a better ratio, it just depends upon testing.
I'm not suggesting that the total available ore in the game be reduced. Just the current volume distributed as suggested in the OP.
There would be equal opportunity for all players to get at the ore- the amount of ore, the time it takes to mine it and the general availability would be comparable to what currently exists. Hulk pilots won't be any more/less capable of monopolizing resources than they already are. I do appreciate your viewpoint and concern. I'm very much in favor of having the new players as much access as possible to resources.
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body.-áIntelligence shouldn't be free... |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
198
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 03:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
Elessa Enaka wrote:
Yeah, like true sec for 0.0 and keep that totally dark from any mods (like survey scanners that tell you the number of units of ore in the roids). The only way that you should be able to discern the "true yield" of the roid is by the visual cues of the roids themselves.
So, all of the veld in a belt is still labeled veld and the survey scanner might tell you that X number of units are in each roid, but it still can't tell you if that huge 110k unit veld roid is worthless or a jackpot roid; you could only tell that by actually looking at the roid and figuring out if it had the appropriate visual cues on its surface. So, if someone isn't paying attention (or perhaps a bot), they could mine that entire 110k roid and not find out that it was essentially worthless until they get it back to station and refine it.
I like it, it definitely still needs more work, but I really like this idea.
Agreed that it needs more work, but how about letting me know how you would like to see it refined? What points would you like me to iterate on? Expand on? Let me know what you think needs to be worked on and in what direction?
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
198
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 03:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
POSSIBLE INSANELY ELEGANT SOLUTION- for the visual aspect of the various asteroids that is: what if the rocks were "V3ed"? If they were, then we wouldn't need a huge amount of new/additional textures for every variation of rock type. We could use procedural textures to generate the variation instead, thereby limiting the amount and number of textures that would need be loaded into memory.
Yes? No? I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
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Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
24
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 03:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:Elessa Enaka wrote:
Yeah, like true sec for 0.0 and keep that totally dark from any mods (like survey scanners that tell you the number of units of ore in the roids). The only way that you should be able to discern the "true yield" of the roid is by the visual cues of the roids themselves.
So, all of the veld in a belt is still labeled veld and the survey scanner might tell you that X number of units are in each roid, but it still can't tell you if that huge 110k unit veld roid is worthless or a jackpot roid; you could only tell that by actually looking at the roid and figuring out if it had the appropriate visual cues on its surface. So, if someone isn't paying attention (or perhaps a bot), they could mine that entire 110k roid and not find out that it was essentially worthless until they get it back to station and refine it.
I like it, it definitely still needs more work, but I really like this idea.
Agreed that it needs more work, but how about letting me know how you would like to see it refined? What points would you like me to iterate on? Expand on? Let me know what you think needs to be worked on and in what direction?
Well, TBH, I had a few ideas regarding how mining could be refined (no pun intended)
First off, I think that there should only be 1 or 2 "asteroid belts" per system and those asteroid belts should only provide Scordite and Veldspar (basic varieties of each as well). However, each system should also get 12+ static grav sites (I say static to mean that there should always be X number of gravs per system, though as each one pops another one spawns somewhere else in system). The grav sites should have the possibility of having all of the different ores in them in varying quantities (though I am NOT suggesting that high-sec gravs get huge amounts of ABCM, there still should be the possibility of at least some). As the sec level of systems drops, the quality of the gravs increases exponentially.
Secondly, I think Ice should deplete and be treated the same as the gravs found in every system. This isn't to say that Ice should be available in every system, though I do think that there should be 1-2 Ice Field "gravs" per constellation (though not always in the same system) to compensate for the fact that they would now be depleting. Also, purely from an aesthetic point, I think that the Ice Field gravs should always be way outside of the orbital belts on the solar system map.
I think that if miners actually had to search for the roids that they were mining it would make things a little more interesting, as well as if the slag roids and visual cues were to be included. Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been |
J Kunjeh
332
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 04:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Damn, someone give the OP a lollipop! I love this idea, one of the best on how to fix mining that I've seen, and I've seen a lot. Spin rate? Genius. "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
136
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 05:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
200
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 05:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
Good point about the bots. What if we moved 95% of the work to actually finding/locating the resources instead of the actual recovery of the resources? Maybe a combination of all of it? If only the best bots inspect memory or inject themselves into Python then maybe my ideas would foil most of them? At least it might make it a little more fun for the human players, having the ability to apply some skill and know-how to the process, instead of the noobs having the exact same ability to produce as a more experienced player?
Man I hate bots. I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
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Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
55
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 05:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
I've thought of that, but how do you do it without it becoming passive resource collection? That would kill mining as a major profession.
Something like PI might work, but the "miner" could reset extractors on the mining array every 10-15m or so, and get MUCH greater yield than someone who lets them sit for an hour, and the silos should fill up in 1-3 hours tops. Of course people could blow up the arrays, pop the silos, and scoop the loot inside if they want. I dunno, just an idea.
Not sure what to do with the current mining ships however. Maybe they could be required to be in the belt to track the asteroids for the mining arrays, or converted to ninja mining ships.
It's late here and I'm tired. :) |
Bayushi Tamago
Killer Carebears Inc.
21
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 05:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
I like you general idea, but the specifics worry me. Visual cues to curb botting would be nice, however, I would prefer the spinning differences to details on asteroid surfaces to not have a chunk of playerbase be unable to mine because the asteroids were V3d like I do believe ice was. I know multiple people who are no longer able to ice mine because of graphics updates to the ice fields, and I worry major rock graphics upgrades would affect enough miners negatively to the point of needing start seeding ore and minerals to the market. I would also approve of the 'super-mega-condensed ore' simply because I do agree it would make it more interesting for players who are on the fence about mining. As far as accesibility to newbs go, don't allow mining barges to mine in system belts that don't spawn rats and a good chunk of that problem is solved. I would say bar them from systems, but then how can people get them popped in jita? |
Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
56
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 05:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
Oh yeah, anyone remember this game? http://youtu.be/qYSQ4XLIaxk Check out the planetary resource collection around 2:00.
Wonder if that could be bot-able?
I loved Star Control II. :) |
Kaylyis
Aces wild mining corporation
22
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 05:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
Put in a code to monitor whether another program (besides windows or whatever) is interacting with the client directly and flag the character. have CCP manually check the flags. Not a scan program that says "this person's using X programs LAWL!" a program that basically tells when another program is directly accessing the player side client. Before you ***** about legality, it's pretty much how blizz caught the early hacks in WoW like the speederbot. |
Marlona Sky
EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis
367
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Posted - 2012.01.19 05:50:00 -
[30] - Quote
This idea has merit.
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Etaoin Shrdxv
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2012.01.19 06:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
I support this thread.
TLDR for lazy devs and csms:
1. Convert rogue drones to pure bounties. 2. Convert mission drops to meta 1d4 bpc's. 3. Establish loot tables with rare drops for miners (for example, a high density refinable that procs about 0.0001 times per mining cycle.) 4. Change the structure of mining to make it fundamentally unbottable. 5. Move a large majority of belts to dynamic grav sites or similar that must be scanned down.
Of these, #1, #2, and #5 can definitely be implemented with existing technology, and by themselves would make EVE a better, more robust game. Gameplay for miners would be much improved.
Keep brainstorming, everyone! |
Valei Khurelem
180
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Posted - 2012.01.19 06:09:00 -
[32] - Quote
. Make the exhumers you're forced to use actually useful instead of just the same version of mining barges except with very slightly bigger cargo and bonuses
. Use the bloody idea I posted to make mining more interactive and interesting and reward people who legitimately play miners rather than punish them for not using bots.
"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP." -á - CCP Ytterbium |
Kaylyis
Aces wild mining corporation
22
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Posted - 2012.01.19 06:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Or to expand on my idea, a line of code that shuts down the eve client whenever another program directly accesses the client. If people want CCP to approve their UI mods, they can submit said mods to CCP for approval and general use. |
Sedstr
PWH Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 06:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:In the 7+ years I've played this game, I think I might have mined maybe twice. Max. It was not for me. That being said, mining is one of the most important and fundamental aspects of Eve and it has never been improved upon since the start of the game. I'd like to share my thoughts on why it's so important and what could be done to revitalize this lackluster and horribly unrewarding profession.
A few quick thoughts:
Mining is generally boring.
Mining is rife with bots.
Mining is marginalized by other mineral streams, namely Rogue Drones and T1 loot drops.
Mining is also the foundation upon which all production is based and is the key logistical resource that should be managed to ensure winning any large scale conflict.
Let's get the easy stuff out of the way first: Get rid of ALL other mineral streams other than through the express act of mining. Will this cause some short term mineral shortages? Sure, but it won't last more than a month. I have faith in my fellow (extremely greedy) Eve players and I'm sure that when Trit hits 400+ ISK/unit we'll see all the PVPers and mission runners out there in a shiny new mining barge trying to cash in while it lasts. In short: remove Rogue drones as a source of minerals (convert them to bounties) and change all T1 loot drops to limited run BPCs for named modules (turning a mineral faucet into a mineral sink in the process).
Now something a little more complicated: make mining FUN.
How do we do this? The EPIC WIN, I say. What if, while mining some basic ore, you have a chance, however small, of mining some exceedingly valuable alloy or mineral (or whatever)? What if it was valuable simply because it had attributes that were completely unattainable via any other means? Like mineral compression for instance? What if while mining Trit you happen to see some "super-ultra-mega-compressed-hyper-density-quantum-tritanium" (I just made that up by the way) pop up in your cargo hold? What if this stuff converted to 10 MILLION Trit per unit, and you just got 10 units of it in your cargo bay? And guess what the best part is? Each unit only takes up 10m3.
Now you have something that is extremely valuable because it has a special quality, but the original use/intent of the material remains the same. Furthermore, the value added to the material is a one time use, one way mechanic (once it's refined, you lose the compression), but the value to people who need to transport vast amounts of ore will be dramatic. Not to mention that you just scored 100 million units of Trit in a single mining cycle that is worth 400M+ ISK on the market.
Such drops would be rare, and there would be various levels of similar drops with varying degrees of probability, but the point is that the possibility would be there. An event like that would really stand out in a player's memory- it would be an EVENT. "Man, remember that time when we found that crazy 20 unit deposit of super-ultra-mega-compressed-hyper-density-quantum-tritanium?! IT WAS AWESOME! I'M RICH!!!" <<<< That my friends is what is missing from mining.
The lower the sec, the better the chances of striking it rich. Again, 10m compression super ore would be hyper rare- the equivalent of a top officer spawn. But you get the idea.
Destroy the bots.
This is the most important part.
Every time someone posts about mining and bots, it doesn't take too long before someone talks about a captcha test to "make sure" there's a person behind the mining. I think that they're right in concept, but wrong on execution.
Bots are good at analyzing data, doing repetitive tasks as fast as possible and so on, but with the concept of a captcha, a designer is trying to break the bot with a mechanic that it's not good at: visual decoding.
But what if there was another area that bots weren't good at? Say... intuition?
What if 95% of the ore in a belt were concentrated in 5% of the asteroids? Same yield per belt, same time taken to mine the minerals etc., but the difference is that for every rock that has minerals in it, there are 9 that don't. The human operator could pick out the rocks with the minerals in them because say, all the rocks had a spin rate, generated in a random direction and axis, but the mineral-laden rocks have a spin rate that is 50% faster than barren rocks. Or maybe mineral laden rocks have more "gold flecks" in the texture, maybe 25% more, or the gold flecks are in a more veined pattern than on the other barren rocks.
There is an impossible number of visual cues and variations that could be implemented to allow players to pick out what rocks have ore in them and which one's do not. My goal here is to incorporate the idea of a VISUAL CAPTCHA in concept right into the rocks themselves, so that it's transparent and players don't even notice that they're doing it. They're simply picking out the "good ones" and leaving the rest behind! Like, you know, being a REAL MINER FOR ONCE!!!
The game designers could make the coloration even more subtle, so that the best and most experienced miners could cherry pick the belts of the choicest rocks by discerning combinations of spin rate (denser ore = faster spin) and subtle variations in the asteroid texture and coloration (this one has specs of gold ore on the surface, but this other one has spider-like veins of black and silver ore woven through it etc...). This INVOLVES THE PLAYER IN THE PROCESS. It makes it engaging and fun. If you're smart and experienced, your production per hour could be dramatically higher than a "noob".
If you've read this far, I congratulate you. Thank you for your time and attention. I look forward to constructive posts on this topic. No, it doesn't belong in "Features and Ideas". GD has more views and this isn't about a feature, it's about fixing the game as a holistic system.
So, let's hear it! Thoughts?
<<<
Best idea I've seen to fix botting... well put together.
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ISD Eshtir
Community Communications Liaisons
38
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Posted - 2012.01.19 08:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
Thread cleaned. Before you go and report a thread and suggesting a thread move, make sure its not a thread like this. This thread is good example for what the General Discussion section is for. ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Tore Vest
Vikinghall
136
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Posted - 2012.01.19 08:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mining need to be saved cause..... What else am I going to use my former cynoalts on... ? |
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 20:13:00 -
[37] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
An idea that I had last night while drifting off to sleep involved something along these lines. I remember reading an idea about staking a claim on a belt (on the old forums IIRC). What if this were to be incorporated as well?
Say for instance, you find a nice grav site, you head back to station, grab your Orca and bring it out to the site. Now here is the idea, when you get back to the site with the Orca, you eject from it and then anchor it to the site (I'm thinking similar anchor times to a standard tower), bring some fuel back out and then online the Orca so that it becomes somewhat of a mobile industrial platform. Perhaps make it that you can't anchor any offensive POS mods with the Orca, but you could do shield hardeners and (warning, revolutionary idea about to be proposed) Refinery Arrays regardless of system sec level. It throws up a force field around the grav and then there you go, mine in relative peace in your very own personal grav site. Give the grav site an expiration date of 14 days or so from the claim and then even let the grav repop with each dt so long as it isn't mined out.
Claim jumpers could still come try to put your Orca into its RF timer (assume that the Orca has both Fuel and Stront bays after being anchored as well as similar resists to a standard tower) so they could mine the site themselves, so not only would this be a buff to Industry, but also a buff to small gang PVP. Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been |
Atticus Lowa
Lowa Corp Industries and Security
5
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Posted - 2012.01.19 20:42:00 -
[38] - Quote
as a miner, outside of mission running. i support the idea to improve mining, but i don't think i have anything to add really, but i dunno CSM is more interested in pew-pew... maybe next election we need to elect a high-sec rep? |
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 20:45:00 -
[39] - Quote
Atticus Lowa wrote:as a miner, outside of mission running. i support the idea to improve mining, but i don't think i have anything to add really, but i dunno CSM is more interested in pew-pew... maybe next election we need to elect a high-sec rep?
Unless high-sec organizes a block vote similar to the 0.0 Alliances, this won't happen Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been |
stoicfaux
656
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 20:53:00 -
[40] - Quote
Good ideas. My nit-picks: * t1 loot reprocessing - instead of getting rid of it, simply reduce the amount of minerals returned. Mineral compression via modules is illogical.
* intuition to beat bots - Someone(tm) will write a bot that will pick out any visual clues. There's simply no way around it.
* scanning for minerals - It's always bugged me that an asteroid field was a small clump of rocks (space is biiiiiiiig!) An asteroid belt should encircle entire planets or stars (such as the asteroid belt between Earth and Mars) and scanning would be needed to find hits along those gi-normous belts.
* Mining as PI - Given how boring mining is, I can definitely support some kind of mining abstraction. However, it should still be susceptible to disruption (i.e. Hulkageddon, or attacking your enemy's supply lines.) Meaning, killing your opponent by attacking his resource generation activities should always be possible.
You can tell me what is and isn't true when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Eternum Praetorian
Black Ops Trade Group
421
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 20:58:00 -
[41] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Honestly, there must be a way to fortify the client in such a way so it can tell when this happening. Added client security while running, combined with the op's ideas would fix so many things.
Why don't people like the OP ever run for CSM Reallocate funds for Icelandic air fare to developing an integrated player input function in the UI. Then talk directly to the customers with polls to collect demographics and game preferences
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Pinaculus
Hole Busters
137
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 21:03:00 -
[42] - Quote
+1 to a good idea. More player interaction creates an opportunity for player skill. That makes the game more fun, which is always a good thing (unless you're just terrible at video games.) I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs. |
Aevenon
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 21:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
+1 to the visual cues option, lessbelts/more gravs, and random epic min drop while mining.
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Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
141
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Posted - 2012.01.19 21:34:00 -
[44] - Quote
Your idea would foil some of them yes, and at any rate it would be an improvement to mining. I really don't know what percentage are hook/memory based and what percent are the rest. Of course botting is just as pervasive for other simple tasks like nullsec belt ratting, as well as courier mission running. Simple tasks like those are the easiest to write a bot for, especially visual bots.
I think the best way of addressing botting is changing gameplay such that it becomes really dangerous to not have that human presence. Nullsec ratting could be addressed by changing how local works for example. My example above about mining would be a reasonable way to address that imo, though I think it would initially have some push-back from the playerbase.
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Hikaru Kuroda
Shimai of New Eden
30
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 21:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
I'm totally agree with you.
Some features of EVE are WAY so forgotten and CCP are still prioritizing other things that gets improvements on every new expansion/patch.
Also, this:
Elessa Enaka wrote:Industry is in need of major overhaul, mining especially.
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Karthwritte
Darthrin Storm Enterprise Drunken Capsuleers
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 22:34:00 -
[46] - Quote
I made a forum thread about this problem in the features and ideas but it went dead, and I am too lazy to just bump it every day. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=579515
There are some ideas by others and me about what to be done. I could copy/paste just to spam. |
Karthwritte
Darthrin Storm Enterprise Drunken Capsuleers
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 22:35:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ok so we all agree that this doesn't have a easy solution. It stills bugs me how it should be made, but I came with multiples "possibles" solutions to it while addressing the main issues that are: -Too Easy & Repetitive (Bot Friendly) -Boring (Lack of Required interaction) -Not much rewarding experience (AFK friendly) -Pretty Uniform (Same here as there)
SO here it comes:
Solution #1: The Minecraft/RL way So how's real mine looks like? Just google the thing and you will see tunnels or BIG holes. Big holes uh? humm. What if you make a big asteroid, and it have different compositions along its surface. It looks like PI. But PI only have the outside layer, its not like the big holes. OK then you add different layers to the asteroid until you hit a layer 0 called core... and if you make sections of the asteroid in all different layers and place a maximum limit to active mining lasers per sections you could make having something like those pictures... I mean, because if one guy do it he will end with a tunnel ah? Reminds me of Minecraft If you get the train of thoughts then you end making +Asteroids with multiples layers that could have different compositions and densities on it. The numbers of layers and composition could be ruled by sec index and location with the universe. In that case 0.0 asteroids could have like 10 layers making less but more BIGGER asteroids. +A new survey mode where you could see the composition of the asteroid like in PI you see the richness of the planet. +A new gameplay where its needed the coordination to mine effectively in group, depending on the size and complexity of the asteroid.
Difficulty to make: HARD Fun to produce: WOW
Solution #2: The Cheap and bastard way So how could you make mining more interactive with the mechanics and tools we already got? Using PVE as reference? Possible. What people do in PVE? Select targets and make sure they are hitting the targets. How? Checking that the guns got the correct ammo for the range and transversal velocity of the target. Nice there is the solution. If you get the train of thoughts then you end making +The amount of yield you get per cycle depends on the current range of the asteroid and its composition. So if you wanna mine veldespar, you should do it in max range with the fall off counting both ways (farther and closer). Kernite should be mined more closer to the asteroid and Arkonor be as close as 1200m to be effectively mined. +It should affect t1 and t2 strip miners in one way and the rest of the mining lasers in another.
Difficulty to make: EASY Fun to produce: MEH (at least its better that before, annoys more the bot farmers)
Solution #3: The mini-game way So, what if your hud showed a new thing when you equip mining lasers or strip miners and it looks like the speed bar (the speed bar its more like a round thing but works more or less like a bar) and it glowed red until you put it in a position where it becomes blue. And what if I told you that you need to put it blue to get the maximum yield in the cycle? Makes mining more interesting ah? And what if I told you that the best minerals needs to be re-calibrated every # of cycles? And that every asteroid have a different calibration position? You could not being AFK for long. If you get the train of thoughts then you end making +A calibration bar where the user have to set to properly focus the mining laser to get the maximum yield possible. It changes in every asteroid and could change every # of cycles depending in the type of asteroid. +Could have different sensitivities depending on the skills and type of miner (and crystal)
Difficulty to make: MEDIUM Fun to produce: GOOD
Solution #4: The Rat Tap Map Trap way Ok so stronger rats... I mean, incursion rats maybe? Well that just will force to have support right? Humm... So it just makes miners bring guns to protect them right? Well in high sec they are not so needed and in null sec they got it. Does it *fix* mining? Nah. Well what do miners do? Sit and make sure they getting the resources. Get resources. What if rats could affect the miners to get their resources? Like using something to cut your cycle before time? Like ECM and sensor dampers? Well just more reason to kill them. And what if they came, cut your cycle, ran away and they came again? Like guerrilla tactics. They would annoy the hell out people and dang more reason to stay sited in the game. Thats a solution. And to annoy more they could call reinforcements that could use that or again the guerrilla tactics. And if they kill your drones when chasing them If you get the train of thoughts then you end making +Rats that can affect the cycle of miners. They should use guerrilla tactics where they come, affect you and get away fast. Could be using ECM and sensor dampers to cut the cycle short and the turret dis to affect the striper. +More variety of rats in re-spawns and maybe they could use the Sleepers/Incursions rat AI. Would be awesome to see them more in null sec freaking out the bastards. In high sec the "annoyers" rats could spawn more instead of good gangs. To keep the game balanced they should be still weak but more annoying, so it makes them necessary to engage at the right time.
Difficulty to make: EASY Fun to produce: MEH (its makes you sit more, annoys more the bot farmers)
This is a copy/paste |
Karthwritte
Darthrin Storm Enterprise Drunken Capsuleers
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 22:36:00 -
[48] - Quote
Solution #5: The Auto-mato way (Got to love this names) Ok, for now what its mining? Its getting into a belt, then get to a asteroid, then hit a button, wait until the cycle its done and your cargo hull its full. How and when you empty the cargo hull to get mining started again depends on your logistics setup, the only different and dynamic activity in mining. Ok and Jatif said that THE FREAKING thing of getting in select the asteroid and hitting a button its so dumb it should be automatic. Maybe cool as PI everybody says. Humm. And how to adapt it to current skills system and modules. Dammit its hard, humm. And if we draw inspiration in RL asteroids, how could be that mining? Wait, this is giving me a idea completely different on how I want to end this one. Focus. Automatic. Well the only thing that hits me its setting something called "The collector" in space, and having them have multiple sizes and capabilities. How they should work, well, here comes the cool thing. The "Collector" its a automatic structure that people should set in space next to asteroid belts. Asteroids in asteroids belts are big, and they move a lot. So the collector sit and wait the asteroids to come by and they hit them with the mining lasers while they pass. And they do this a lot of times. So, if using EVE style lets say that the collectors are a hybrid of anchor-able structures and ships. Yeah, you heard me right. Lets say that its like getting a retriever, fitting it up and then getting into a position, anchor it, and wait until it fills up alone. Now the trick its knowing THE position. Using visuals like in PI, you see in the system map densities for the coming 3 hours (Or 6 or 2. 3 Hours sound fair). Yeah, they are not that constant (And those densities should look like droplets or like spot marks, apart that the internal game mechanics could make them more empty and rare as more mining have been accomplished and they should move in a orbit). Then after you set the collector in the position, the collector starts getting the resources and its more or less successful depending on its fit, the density and composition of the location. Now the part of the logistics its the tricky one as it should be like current one. Maybe the collector could have a bigger internal cargo hold that current mining ships but then when they fill up, they should eject all the minerals inside into a can. And do it again, until they stop mining. That sounds normal and even fun to rob the cans that trow the collector itself . If you don't get a part you should ask me what because this one have taken a lot of time and text-space to explain.
Difficulty to make: HARD Fun to produce: GOOD (makes finding the resources more fun, mining them more automatically and transport them to the stations as usual as it is now. Apart that make bots more obsolete as they cannot find the resources by themselves easily [WOULD NEED A VERY INTELLIGENT PROGRAM TO ACCOMPLISH IT]
Solution #6: The Mix it Good (shaken not stirred) way. Ok this one came as I was thinking in the last one and all the others behind it. So what if we mix the mini-game idea with current mining. And PI-like mechanics, and idea #1. Humm. Lets say we get a hulk and it "lands" in a big asteroid. And it opens a interface where you start using to see the "interior" of the asteroid. You see densities and composition in 3D. And you set a target region and you hit the cycle laser to start. Nah, it sounds like current mining with a awesome interface. Well, what if you mix it a little with idea # 5 and you end... making something that mines by itself? Well it needs a twist doesn't it?, and if you mix it with RL lets say, in planing a mining route inside the asteroid... AHA! Ok lets say that you get into the asteroid and land. Then, instead of just selecting a place to cycle you program it to do it automatically by selecting places you wanna mine inside the asteroid, like multiple zones (That could have Hexagons and Pentagons forms). Then using different layers inside the asteroid (like in #1) you start seeing the inner layers composition and you start the selecting zones and start mining automatically following the plot you gave them. And that is, a mix of all previous ideas. Make me freaking tired now.
Difficulty to make: HARD Fun to produce: GOOD
This is a copy/paste |
Karthwritte
Darthrin Storm Enterprise Drunken Capsuleers
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 22:43:00 -
[49] - Quote
Some more copy/paste quotes YEAH IT SUCKS
[Jafit McJafitson]Funny how other forms of resource gathering except for asteroid mining are automated, with the player's involvement just being setup and transport of materials...
Hey I know!
Anchorable mining structures deployable in belts and grav sites, harvests and stores ore, player transports it.
Refund everyone's mining skillpoints, or make those skills applicable to the effectiveness of the structure. Re-tool mining ships to do something more fun and useful, like station window cleaning.
The sad truth is that botters have it right, Eve just needs to accept and integrate it into the game. Any activity that is monotonous enough to be accomplished fully by a bot should just be automated in the first place. Or changed to the point where botting isn't practical, but that's aimed more towards the nullsec botting PvE Ravens and Tengus.[/quote]
[Tarn Kugisa]I would enjoy corp mining ops more if mining wasnt so damn boring[/quote]
[Mars Theran]I like an adapted version of the PI model. Boring holes in asteroids sounds server breaking though, and you could make it much simpler and more challenging.
Basically, you set it up so you have fewer and larger asteroids, and introduce a mining view much like the PI view. Initiate a scan on the asteroidand select a target point for your lasers from the shifting mass of ore density indicator hues then drop the mining view as your lasers start chugging away.
Now you are free to watch for pirates or players interested in ruining your day for awhile. At some pont, your density of ore is going to putter out and you'll have to reinitialize the mining view and reposition your lasers targeting point. I suppose you could also have multiple points based on number of lasers and visible density.
Ideally, to maximize your mining, you have to maintain the mining view and move your lasers as the density points shift and move along the surface of the asteroid. To make it more interesting, the asteroid shrinks by leaps and bounds as it is mined, until it is no more than a little lump of debris floating in space.
Botting difficulty: Extreme Mining enjoyment Level: Theoretically fun Fleet Support requirement for mining activities: A must. Risk: Variable to high[/quote]
[HELLBOUNDMAN]Jask Avan wrote:Actually think about doing those for any length of time. Same monotony as before, just with more annoyance you have to deal with. First idea isn't bad though.
I'm gonna have to agree with ^this^
It might be kinda fun at first, but it would get very annoying and very tedious before too long.
My thought to fixing macros was to not allow asteroids to be targetable, but instead you would have to select the asteroid via overview or survey scan window, then you would have to trigger the miner and actually click the asteroid floating in space in order to mine it.
However, when you sit back and really think about things, are macro miners really that bad?
I mean, if it wasn't for them, wouldn't that hulk you're flying cost at least another 50 mil more, or 100 mil more? Hell, maybe even double.[/quote]
[Valei Khurelem]I like the idea of a mini-game PERHAPS, but it'd have to be done right, I wouldn't want this to be some crappy Everquest 2 type thing where you do a repetitive mini-game that only has four different variations.
This would definitely be a chance though if it was done like this to get CCP off their collective asses and design something fun and interactive to play, currently anything you do in EVE consists of point, click, wait for several hours and then repeat. Why not have some kind of puzzle game where it's a bit like bejeweled and when you activate the mining lasers a screen comes up and the more points you score, you get bonuses to the amount of ore that goes into your cargo hold and pretty skilled people can quickly make ISK at the beginning by putting their ore into the can while they progress through the puzzles?
Sure, it'd make no sense to the EVE universe, CCP could work on something that would, but at least it'd make mining more interesting and rewarding.
i'd love for us to do it like Minecraft or Miner wars but I doubt CCP would ever dare to do anything creative like that and unfortunately the rest of the stuff looks like it would only drive miners away because it seems to make it a bit more tedious than necessary.[/quote]
[Ines Tegator]Mining is NOT fine as it is. It's boring as all get-out, and the best thing going for it is that it lets you make money while afk or chatting it up. It should obviously be low key enough to allow the relaxing, but enough needs to be added to reward players that stay at their keyboard and play the game. A visual map mining kind of thing, like PI resources, would make bottingf much harder as well i'd imagine.[/quote]
[Gerrick Palivorn]Decent thought out suggestions.
Add to everyone that static belts are removed in favor of higher spawn rate, low density grav sites and I'll support fully.
Mining has always needed a boost and multiple options to choose from is a good thing.[/quote]
[Nestara Aldent]Problem is mining is as good as it need to be, and don't need to be improved. More difficult mining mechanics wouldn't decrease macro mining, or in fact it would just until new bots come around.
That wouldn't make mining more fun. What would make mining more fun are stronger rats that aren't a joke and are actual danger, so the miner is forced to manage targets and assign drones to them to be safe.
And about botting and cheating in games there is software to prevent that.[/quote]
I just did what I have never done, almost move one thread to another |
SpaceSquirrels
255
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 22:51:00 -
[50] - Quote
You can't mine in lowsec... This is a bit of a problem... Just the time it takes to get a decent amount worth your time and worth risking it. They need to allow you to "Blow up" roids and then collect fragments. Overall it's less efficient, but allows you not to sit around all day waiting to be ganked. Also slightly more chanced based as the fragments might be say randomized.
You still keep the old mining system but introduce something new in that takes you actually being in front of your monitor.
I dunno could be the dumbest idea ever, but one of the problems with mining is the time it takes. The second part is that it's not interactive. |
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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
222
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 23:00:00 -
[51] - Quote
Eternum Praetorian wrote:Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Honestly, there must be a way to fortify the client in such a way so it can tell when this happening. Added client security while running, combined with the op's ideas would fix so many things. Why don't people like the OP ever run for CSM
If I gathered enough support, I would consider it.
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
|
Trainwreck McGee
Ghost Ship Inc.
211
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 23:01:00 -
[52] - Quote
Make mining only at grav sites
make grav sites a gradient of okay to awesome in terms of oar composition and amount
This will increase exploration and make mining more satisfying
Then make mining more like gambling by making a small chance of getting big time minerals.
THIS is how you fix mining
o and botting will be tougher.
CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
22
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 23:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
I like the OP and here is my input for making "mining more engaging".
The color-coded ore is great and should definitely be looked at by CCP's design team. It would be a serious revision of the 5% and 10% better ores currently available.
I have suggested this before, but one could also introduce "ship movement" during mining. As it is, you only need manage your mining ship while being stationery. What if you had to occasionally physically avoid a broken asteroid that you lasers broke in half? It does not have to destroy your ship or anything, but simply be avoidable by orbiting/moving out of the way otherwise it would bump your ship outside of mining range. You would be forced to either pick a new roid or slowboat/warp back to your spot. Also, being "too close" of an asteroid might get you caught in it's kinetic/explosive shattering which would be dangerous and possibly destroy your ship if you get hit multiple times in a row.
The following suggestions are easily manageable by being at the commands and not AFK. It adds value to the orca/rorqual's tractor beam's range. Just saying. |
Nopsa
Lithium Flower.
9
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 23:08:00 -
[54] - Quote
Very good suggestion by the OP.
Really need suggestions like this in this game and in war against bots. As CCP Sreegs mentioned in minutes, the change gotta come through mechanics and not by hiring hundreds of cops (gamemasters) to hunt down the bots. Also I think searching and taking different kind of measurements should play major role (in terms of time) in mining, and the extraction be only short process in the end.
:thumbs up: |
FeralShadow
CenGen Armament
46
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 23:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
Great ideas OP. Haven't seen things this clever yet elegant in a long time. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
450
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 23:55:00 -
[56] - Quote
tl;dr
Remove mining. So long as its the worst profession in game that makes the worst payout, boring as hell, and is considered the fatest duck to pop on a daily basis because its so damn easy, it would be more prudent to just get rid of hulks and any vessel that blows up rocks (orca can stay as it doesn't actually mine except with drones and any ship can do that ). NPC's should seed minerals as they did once in the past, but at outrageously high prices (isk sink, disseappers into nothing) so that next time you undock in a rifter you should be crying because in this harsh universe it should ******* hurt when you know your going to lose something cheap and HTFU by the time you get into something bigger it will make you cry as your logging in. EVE is harsh, so miners should take one for the team and just f*ck the rest us over in the future
Sound good ? |
Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles
18
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 00:06:00 -
[57] - Quote
No. Because then you just replace mining with Gun mining via reprocessing crap T1 modules. Mineral market would be annoyed. People just change theoir bots to Security Mission running bots, and earn even more ISK .
1/10. Only 1 cuz I couldn't help myself from vomiting frustratil over the keyboard |
Cosmos Serendipity
BRAHMA CORP
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 00:17:00 -
[58] - Quote
I like the op's idea's, maybe with a few more tweaks.
Removal of rat loot drops replaced with higher bounties
Change reprecessing to give a new material (Pot metal) that can be used in the process of building instead of minerals also making mining a more important aspect of the game and possibly fix much of industry at the same time since even the "Junk" won't be flooding the markets making it worthwhile to produce the items |
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 00:28:00 -
[59] - Quote
Cosmos Serendipity wrote:I like the op's idea's, maybe with a few more tweaks.
Removal of rat loot drops replaced with higher bounties
Change reprecessing to give a new material (Pot metal) that can be used in the process of building instead of minerals also making mining a more important aspect of the game and possibly fix much of industry at the same time since even the "Junk" won't be flooding the markets making it worthwhile to produce the items.
Still leave some loot drops, just not nearly what is given out now.
IDK, I still think that Scrapmetal Reprocessing should be required for reprocessing anything...
Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been |
Nyssa Litari
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 00:31:00 -
[60] - Quote
Some very good ideas there, though I don't like the notion of making survey scanners useless. If a scanner says there's X amount of Veld in a roid, there should be X amount of Veld, Epic Win notwithstanding.
More importantly, what should CCP name the dev team that works on it?
How about: Team Moria |
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Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 00:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
Nyssa Litari wrote:Some very good ideas there, though I don't like the notion of making survey scanners useless. If a scanner says there's X amount of Veld in a roid, there should be X amount of Veld, Epic Win notwithstanding.
More importantly, what should CCP name the dev team that works on it?
How about: Team Moria
That is the thing though, Survey Scanners wouldn't become useless, they would still tell you exactly how my units of ore there were in all of the asteroids in range, they just wouldn't be able to tell you the quality of the ore. Instead of having Condensed Scordite, Massive Scordite and Scordite being separate categories of asteroid, all of it would be labeled Scordite and you wouldn't find out if you had pulled the 0.01%, 5% or 25% variant until you got back to refine it.
The only way you would be able to tell the difference between the variants before then is by looking for the pattern on the surface of the asteroids/spin rate or whatever visual cues CCP implemented to differentiate.
Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been |
Janus Nightmare
ECP Incorporated
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 01:24:00 -
[62] - Quote
Etaoin Shrdxv wrote:I support this thread.
TLDR for lazy devs and csms:
1. Convert rogue drones to pure bounties. 2. Convert mission drops to meta 1d4 bpc's. 3. Establish loot tables with rare drops for miners (for example, a high density refinable that procs about 0.0001 times per mining cycle.) 4. Change the structure of mining to make it fundamentally unbottable. 5. Move a large majority of belts to dynamic grav sites or similar that must be scanned down.
Of these, #1, #2, and #5 can definitely be implemented with existing technology, and by themselves would make EVE a better, more robust game. Gameplay for miners would be much improved.
Keep brainstorming, everyone!
I disagree with the underlined part for one reason, and perhaps it's a selfish one. I mine because it's something I can do casually while working on my laptop or another pc. I realize that's not necessarily the way it was intended, but I don't often have the time to completely, actively play and make enough ISK to buy PLEX. By mining while I'm working, I can make enough to buy PLEX for both of my accounts so that when I do get some free time to actually play the game, I can do it. Some of the suggestions, while not bad, would make it more difficult for casual players like me who can't devote every bit of attention to the screen while mining.
Now, I know people are going to ride my arse for my comments, and that's fine. Just for the record, I'm not saying that mining needs to be a perfectly safe carebear activity. Not at all, and I've been ganked several times while mining and realize it's likely going to happen again. I'm just pointing out that you don't want to "improve gameplay" for miners too much because it would make it far more difficult for casual players like me to keep playing the game at all.
All I'm saying is that there needs to be a balance, because let's face it, some of us like the boring aspect of mining. If I am going to spend more time scanning down grav sights (which I admit I'm not very good at) then I only ask that you make it worthwhile, and have enough ore in there that I can't deplete it with a couple of Hulks inside of an hour like I can some current asteroid belts. I'm not saying I disagree with the concept, just be careful to keep a good balance so it doesn't drive the casual player like me away. |
Janus Nightmare
ECP Incorporated
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 01:32:00 -
[63] - Quote
Oh! I had another thought.
Mining could use a bit more of a PvP aspect to it that may help with bots as well. One of the most annoying things in mining is when some troll comes along and intentionally mines every rock you're trying to mine, just to keep you from getting that ore. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while I'll run across someone who wants to be a griefer like that.
Now, my suggestion for this, rather than install some sort of "rule" that the GM's have to get involved with in order to prevent this sort of griefing, I say you make it an act of piracy similar to can flipping.
So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.
Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.
Just a thought :) |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
231
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 01:48:00 -
[64] - Quote
Janus Nightmare wrote:Oh! I had another thought.
Mining could use a bit more of a PvP aspect to it that may help with bots as well. One of the most annoying things in mining is when some troll comes along and intentionally mines every rock you're trying to mine, just to keep you from getting that ore. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while I'll run across someone who wants to be a griefer like that.
Now, my suggestion for this, rather than install some sort of "rule" that the GM's have to get involved with in order to prevent this sort of griefing, I say you make it an act of piracy similar to can flipping.
So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.
Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.
Just a thought :)
Uhhhh... (realize that I'm a huuuuuuge pirate at heart when I say this) The above would be exploited to hell and back and miners would never be able to mine again lol. I applaud the effort, but getting aggro just because someone mines the same rock as you would never work for the above exploit issue.
Also- while I appreciate that some (maybe a lot?) of people like the "AFKness" of mining, that needs to be stopped. Nothing should be able to be "AFKed" in Eve. I think that most players would prefer to have the ability to generate high value with less total time cost than low value across much greater time cost while semi-AFK. While I understand your position, it's not good game design. I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
|
Bunny Sweetcheeks
Boundless Hypocrisy
14
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 01:51:00 -
[65] - Quote
Elessa Enaka wrote:Janus Nightmare wrote:Oh! I had another thought.
Mining could use a bit more of a PvP aspect to it that may help with bots as well. One of the most annoying things in mining is when some troll comes along and intentionally mines every rock you're trying to mine, just to keep you from getting that ore. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while I'll run across someone who wants to be a griefer like that.
Now, my suggestion for this, rather than install some sort of "rule" that the GM's have to get involved with in order to prevent this sort of griefing, I say you make it an act of piracy similar to can flipping.
So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.
Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.
Just a thought :) I like that idea a lot, make it just the same as can flipping while your mining lasers are active on the asteroid. If another member of your corp decides to mine the same asteroid as you, it's not a problem. However, when someone else comes along they get flagged just the same as if they had robbed your jetcan and become a legal target for anyone in your corp. If you leave the belt though and come back to them mining "your" asteroid, you're SOL. I do think that this would help with bots, I also think that there would be those who would exploit it just as there are those who canflip to provoke miners. Either way though, I think that the positives would outweigh the negatives.
More work on how the agression rules are created would have to happen to avoid impacting alliance mining ops. Yes on a small scale it can work in fleet but too much to manage if someone leaves the fleet or DC's or is not in fleet.. etc. I'm sure someone can outline a way that the can flipping rules can change to achieve this. :)
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Dunkler Imperator
N.F.H.P. Eternal Evocations
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 01:57:00 -
[66] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
Only if it was for < .3.(i have never done WH so i have no comment about that)
Pro's -Farms and fields of Null. -Isk sink -Good way for null to get low end Con's could be over used (i.e all 4000 goons are doing it at the same time it would flood the market)
Here is a post i made a while ago. It's got some more depth then What covert Kitty wrote. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=287969#post287969
Also, Not a single troll/ negative comment? Is the OP alt a forum mod lol? |
Janus Nightmare
ECP Incorporated
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 01:58:00 -
[67] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:Janus Nightmare wrote:Oh! I had another thought.
Mining could use a bit more of a PvP aspect to it that may help with bots as well. One of the most annoying things in mining is when some troll comes along and intentionally mines every rock you're trying to mine, just to keep you from getting that ore. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while I'll run across someone who wants to be a griefer like that.
Now, my suggestion for this, rather than install some sort of "rule" that the GM's have to get involved with in order to prevent this sort of griefing, I say you make it an act of piracy similar to can flipping.
So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.
Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.
Just a thought :) Uhhhh... (realize that I'm a huuuuuuge pirate at heart when I say this) The above would be exploited to hell and back and miners would never be able to mine again lol. I applaud the effort, but getting aggro just because someone mines the same rock as you would never work for the above exploit issue. Also- while I appreciate that some (maybe a lot?) of people like the "AFKness" of mining, that needs to be stopped. Nothing should be able to be "AFKed" in Eve. I think that most players would prefer to have the ability to generate high value with less total time cost than low value across much greater time cost while semi-AFK. While I understand your position, it's not good game design.
I never said I was totally AFK'd while mining. I'm sitting right in front of the game, dual-boxing most of the time, My question is, why does it need to be stopped? How does that impact any other player in the game besides making myself a relatively easy gank target?
I don't entirely disagree with the suggestions you made, as I stated in my first post. My point was entirely about making sure to maintain balance so that you don't alienate the people who currently mine and like it the way it is. But your remark that the way I play the game needs to be stopped is right on the edge of sounding like "you need to play it my way or GTFO", which makes me start to doubt the sincerity of the topic. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
914
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 02:11:00 -
[68] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:A few quick thoughts:
Mining is generally boring.
Mining is rife with bots.
Mining is also a staple income stream for semi-AFK players. If mining requires too much interaction, these semi-AFK players (e.g.: folks who have their mining fleet running behind the real life spreadsheets) will be out of an income stream. What will they do then?
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:Let's get the easy stuff out of the way first: Get rid of ALL other mineral streams other than through the express act of mining.
100% agreement with you there!
Here are alternatives: rogue drones drop "drone tags" which are used in the manufacture or research/invention of drone related implants, modules & rigs. Other NPCs drop "things" such as components required to research/invent meta 1-4 items (e.g.: Datacore - Angel Cartel Starship Engineering). No more T1 loot dropping from NPCs. Sometimes the looter might find a limited run BPC.
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:How do we do this? The EPIC WIN, I say. What if, while mining some basic ore, you have a chance, however small, of mining some exceedingly valuable alloy or mineral (or whatever)? What if it was valuable simply because it had attributes that were completely unattainable via any other means? Like mineral compression for instance? What if while mining Trit you happen to see some "super-ultra-mega-compressed-hyper-density-quantum-tritanium" (I just made that up by the way) pop up in your cargo hold? What if this stuff converted to 10 MILLION Trit per unit, and you just got 10 units of it in your cargo bay? And guess what the best part is? Each unit only takes up 10m3.
Just be aware that increasing the supply of minerals will not make you richer, it will only make minerals less valuable. To allow for 0.01% of laser cycles to produce a super-compressed ore worth 100 normal laser cycles, CCP would have to reduce yield across the board by 1%. Of course this could already be implemented by introducing a fourth tier of ore, and shifting the concentrations from 100%/105%/110% to something more like 50%/100%/150%/200%. Asteroids should also be able to contain nothing (i.e.: they are barren), and no number of cycles will ever extract any ore from them.
I'd also remove all ore names from the overview. All asteroids just become "Asteroid". No more "Asteroid (Blue Ice)" or "Asteroid (Veldspar)".
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:What if 95% of the ore in a belt were concentrated in 5% of the asteroids? Same yield per belt, same time taken to mine the minerals etc., but the difference is that for every rock that has minerals in it, there are 9 that don't. The human operator could pick out the rocks with the minerals in them because say, all the rocks had a spin rate, generated in a random direction and axis, but the mineral-laden rocks have a spin rate that is 50% faster than barren rocks. Or maybe mineral laden rocks have more "gold flecks" in the texture, maybe 25% more, or the gold flecks are in a more veined pattern than on the other barren rocks.
Semi-AFK pilots would still be able to AFK-mine, as long as they spend a modicum of effort to select the appropriate rocks. An AFK pilot might want to mine rocks with greater quantity rather than quality, since they know they'll be AFK for about 10 minutes.
I'd also want to see mining moved to grav sites almost entirely, since part of the lore of hisec is that the hisec belts have been stripped of anything of value. Leave some belts out there, with very low yield in them.
To help the Semi-AFK folks I'd also like to see a new module for the Orca which could siphon ore out of the hold of the targeted ship. Thus rather than a mining yield booster link, use this ore siphon so the desk jockey doesn't have to come back to the screen every seven minutes to move ore to the Orca. For me the most tedious part of mining was having to be at the keyboard to move ore to the jet can or Orca every now and then. If it wasn't for that, mining wouldn't be so darned boring.
Smaller number of rocks with higher yield + ore siphon => no need to use a bot since you can more easily perform the boring part of mining which is the ore extraction.
Identifying the deposit is the skilled part of the job: probe down the grav site, survey the rocks, visually inspect, tag them, then start the extraction process. If all of that can be done within about five minutes, allowing the mining ships to then sit there for tens of minutes unattended, you kill mining bots by removing the reason to automate mining because it's just about entirely automated for you. Ideally you'll be able to buy bookmarks for local grav sites from entrepreneurial explorers - those who are looking for Mag/Radars and don't care for mining or gas harvesting.
Such a siphon would fall half way between "use a ship" and "deploy a structure". You have to be logged in and "active" (I use the term very loosely), but you still get what is essentially a passive income.
(I would also want to see a significant boost to the EHP of an exhumer, since the system would be focussed on semi-afk play)
PS: ISD Eshtir, I'm a little confused as to why this doesn't belong in Features & Ideas Discussion since it is discussing an idea for a change to the mechanics of the game. Or is your comment basically an official statement that F&I is the graveyard for posts that none cares about?
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
914
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 02:23:00 -
[69] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:Also- while I appreciate that some (maybe a lot?) of people like the "AFKness" of mining, that needs to be stopped. Nothing should be able to be "AFKed" in Eve. I think that most players would prefer to have the ability to generate high value with less total time cost than low value across much greater time cost while semi-AFK. While I understand your position, it's not good game design.
- Moon goo
- The market
- Planetary Interaction
- Contracts
- AFK cloaking
- Invention
- Manufacturing
- Research Points & Datacores
There are plenty of activities in EVE which achieve something while being AFK. In many of these cases you don't even have to be logged in to benefit from these activities.
Semi-AFK mining fleets fit neatly into that void between actively piloted ships and deployable structures: both of which are already parts of the game, and both of which can be used to generate income. Deployable structures can be used to generate significant income without anyone actually logging in to the game for weeks at a time (you need to be there to shuffle fuel blocks from the hangar array to the fuel bay, while your capital component BPO is researched to optimal ME & PE).
Saying that "it's not good game design" is to ignore the current design and culture of mining.
|
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
236
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 02:31:00 -
[70] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Mors Sanctitatis wrote:Also- while I appreciate that some (maybe a lot?) of people like the "AFKness" of mining, that needs to be stopped. Nothing should be able to be "AFKed" in Eve. I think that most players would prefer to have the ability to generate high value with less total time cost than low value across much greater time cost while semi-AFK. While I understand your position, it's not good game design.
- Moon goo
- The market
- Planetary Interaction
- Contracts
- AFK cloaking
- Invention
- Manufacturing
- Research Points & Datacores
There are plenty of activities in EVE which achieve something while being AFK. In many of these cases you don't even have to be logged in to benefit from these activities. Semi-AFK mining fleets fit neatly into that void between actively piloted ships and deployable structures: both of which are already parts of the game, and both of which can be used to generate income. Deployable structures can be used to generate significant income without anyone actually logging in to the game for weeks at a time (you need to be there to shuffle fuel blocks from the hangar array to the fuel bay, while your capital component BPO is researched to optimal ME & PE). Saying that "it's not good game design" is to ignore the current design and culture of mining.
Ouch, ouch! Okay, I shouldn't speak in absolutes lol!
How about "less AFK, for mining"?
I get that people like the semi-AFKness of it. I don't think that the OP ideas would reduce that by a lot- once you find the right rocks, you still have to mine them traditionally.
Your responses two posts up are really good- please keep them coming!
I like your idea of completely removing the type of asteroids from the overview- simply calling them all "asteroid" would be great. Let survey scanners further identify the types as "Veldspar" etc. for the new players. After a while, the expert players will know what type of rock it is just by looking at it. Really great idea. I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
915
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 04:39:00 -
[71] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:How about "less AFK, for mining"?
I get that people like the semi-AFKness of it. I don't think that the OP ideas would reduce that by a lot- once you find the right rocks, you still have to mine them traditionally.
Yup, I feel that's the way to go: though my interpretation is to front-load the activity, then enhance the calm of mining in the tail end. People who want to keep their eyes open to avoid ganking can pay the necessary attention. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 04:48:00 -
[72] - Quote
One of the best, simplest, most fundamental, well thought out ideas that I've ever read on these forums. |
J Kunjeh
334
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 05:13:00 -
[73] - Quote
Janus Nightmare wrote:Oh! I had another thought.
Mining could use a bit more of a PvP aspect to it that may help with bots as well. One of the most annoying things in mining is when some troll comes along and intentionally mines every rock you're trying to mine, just to keep you from getting that ore. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while I'll run across someone who wants to be a griefer like that.
Now, my suggestion for this, rather than install some sort of "rule" that the GM's have to get involved with in order to prevent this sort of griefing, I say you make it an act of piracy similar to can flipping.
So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.
Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.
Just a thought :)
God no...just, no. That rock doesn't belong to you or anyone else. If you don't like him mining it, shoot him and deal with the consequences.
"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 05:29:00 -
[74] - Quote
Elessa Enaka wrote:Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
An idea that I had last night while drifting off to sleep involved something along these lines. I remember reading an idea about staking a claim on a belt (on the old forums IIRC). What if this were to be incorporated as well? Say for instance, you find a nice grav site, you head back to station, grab your Orca and bring it out to the site. Now here is the idea, when you get back to the site with the Orca, you eject from it and then anchor it to the site (I'm thinking similar anchor times to a standard tower), bring some fuel back out and then online the Orca so that it becomes somewhat of a mobile industrial platform. Perhaps make it that you can't anchor any offensive POS mods with the Orca, but you could do shield hardeners and (warning, revolutionary idea about to be proposed) Refinery Arrays regardless of system sec level. It throws up a force field around the grav and then there you go, mine in relative peace in your very own personal grav site. Give the grav site an expiration date of 14 days or so from the claim and then even let the grav repop with each dt so long as it isn't mined out. Claim jumpers could still come try to put your Orca into its RF timer (assume that the Orca has both Fuel and Stront bays after being anchored as well as similar resists to a standard tower) so they could mine the site themselves, so not only would this be a buff to Industry, but also a buff to small gang PVP.
Something that I just thought of as a balancing factor to this would be once you establish the Mining Operation, its location would then be broadcast in the overview similar to DED sites (Angel-Creo Corp Mining anyone?). If you were letting everyone know where the operation was, it wouldn't be long before someone declared war on you (assuming the operation is in high-sec) looking to come take over your operation.
Another thought is cost, make it so that the Orca (when anchored and onlined) requires the same amount of fuel as a large tower (though it should accept any of the fuel block varieties or perhaps an ORE specific variant that would be released along with the anchoring capability) as well as only providing a similar amount of CPU/PG as a small tower. Add to this, the cost of paying CONCORD for the exclusive rights to the grav and I think that it would more than balance being able to mine your own personal grav site.
Do the same with Rorquals in 0.0 (maybe give them higher fuel reqs as well as more CPU/PG) and I could see Mining Operations popping up all over the place.
Edit: maybe connect it to Sov for 0.0, if you're in Empire, you pay CONCORD for the claim rights, in Sov 0.0, you pay the Sov Alliance for the claim rights Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
324
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 05:42:00 -
[75] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:Ouch, ouch! Okay, I shouldn't speak in absolutes lol!.
Ya, you totally got skooled there.
I've also mined... 2 times in my whole EVE Career.
The second time I was in a Scythe with l5 cruiser skills and Mining 4 (came with my character start up I think?) And I was mining as much if not more than 1-2 month old Retriever pilots in the mining fleet.
I got a bit of a kick in that.
I think we need to revisit the initial ideas they had in CCP a while back - the first one was get rid of "belt pockets" and institute PROPER solar system belts that span the whole solar system. I believe they had the technology in place for most of that with the expansions over the years, they just never actually had a chance to sit down and focus on those developments with everything since.
If you create a "solar system" belt - then you'd naturally have a lot of 'rubbish' rocks that you'd have to sort through - and you'd end up with a more Millenium Falcon through Asteroid Belt feel tot he SCALE of the belts.
At that point, if you make it valuable yet time consuming enough - you could have "crews" work over sections of this 300 AU circumference asteroid BELT (not pocket) and do more or less what you're describing. Eventually, explorers could turn a profession out of selling concentrated pockets in the belts to miners (and afk miners) who want to be able to sit there for a day.
So that satisfies the AFK level to a "semi-afk" level - and the "semi" part can be co-opted to mining explorers looking for "better" parts of the belt but don't want the "Easy" rocks, they want the "big hit".
A typical day for a miner would look something like this then.
Log on
Get in your exploration mining vessel (tricked out of course)
Head to the local Asteroid "Belt", starting at your favorite part of the belt, and start either using probes or some kind of belt analyzer to move around and hit segments of the belt that seem interesting.
You come across a really dense segment of Veldspar, but it would take 5-6 hours to get the amount of money you want from it - so you find a corpmate/local player who you know wants to AFK mine, you sell it to him for 10 Million ISK (site is worth 50M Isk over 5 hours)
You make some money for your effort, but not what you're looking for so you move on.
You eventually find some "rich" dense nodes that can bring you 50M in an hour - which is what you specialize in. You hit the rock hard and bring in your goal for the day, and head out - having played approximately 2 hours, made 25m/hr, and happy to go.
Corp operations... For "mining operations" you'd start in a segment of the belt with your Orca and your 3-4 mining vessels and hit your MWDs and start scouring segments of the mining belt (high speed fly by mining) you hit some rocks as you move around and you'd have a couple "specialists" able to find and locate really valuable density ores that the miners can hit in less than 10-20 minutes. You'd be able to specialize in fast roaming mining activities that can bring in 25-50m/hr as a group, little less "AFK" but can work together to be more AFK, the mining ships can still be quasi AFK while specialists search and take turns looking for the next bit of rock and the Orca provides bonuses and picks up ore as necessary.
You'd basically create a new profession - Mining Ore Explorers that scour belts for a kickback from actual miners.
Rocks wouldn't be labeled "Veldspar" and so on - probably just labeled "Asteroid".
Then, an analyzer would mark them all for a fleet (or use some tagging system) what types were what kind, and skills would play into it as well as a level of technical application (something similar to learning to use probes while scanning for exploration - except on a much smaller level). You could essentailly setup probes in your local space to "cross" scan the sites, different configurations would give you different accuracy levels but allow you to cover large blocks of the belt easily.
So, you could do a ROUGH scan over an area of like 100km with 4 belt probes - but you'd only get a general impression - there COULD be something really valuable somewhere in the middle of all of that juiciness, but you won't actually know until you get to the 5km by 5km scan range (size of 1 rock could be 5km) - and then you see there's more than just veldspar there, there's a really precious bit of megacyte style ore (whatever it's called). Naturally low/null sec would have higher concentrations of the stuff.
Of course, that wouldn't stop you from basically just "blind mining" and hoping you get something worth mentioning without ever using belt analyzing probes, superstitious style probing for the "intuitive" player. I think that should have some support as well. As long as "intuitive" doesn't mean "predictable".
This requires another idea I had mentioned to CCP which would be an "Exploration Contract System" for contracting out exploration sites/space sites you've fond (Without needing to drag bookmarks around) - you could create a contract for the site for people that don't want to spend the time exploring - all they'd know is what system it was in and the type of site and in this case the analyzer data for confirming the site through game mechanics (rather than just someones promise) and "downloadable" to save having to redo the effort. In theory they could go out there and scan the site down themselves - but there could be a way to co-opt that from happening easily, or you could just make sure you price exploration sites competitively and someone decides pressing "Accept" is faster than the 10-20 minutes to actually probe the site down for the value. Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
324
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 06:07:00 -
[76] - Quote
There would be 2 parts to the PVP element of the above now.
You could "Combat Scan Probe" other miners and just go to see what they're doing to "steal" the ore that they've already found - basically parasitic mining off the hard work of "legitimate" miners and miner explorers.
That would SERIOUSLY **** off miners (and would definitely cause a few Miner wars, I already am laughing about hearing about the next great Miner war because of this).
This would lead to interesting behaviors on the "risk vs reward" element of mining - and how you counter parasitic miners.
The other PVP avenue is that you could implement some of the above ideas about "can flipping for belts".
The concept would be simple - you could "Plant a Flag" for your corporation on a rock. The item would load into some kind of probe launcher, let's say. It would be relatively expensive to manufacture - 1 Million ISK and it would basically set a beacon on the rock that anyone who mines it that isn't a member of that corp/alliance would get flagged for "stealing". This would feed into the economy of mining (some ore goes back into just claiming rocks) and would feed into the idea of "Risk VS Reward".
By mining that rock, the corp that is being "stolen" from can decide how to aggress the thief (just like with can flipping).
At that point, some rocks simply wouldn't (and shouldn't) be worth claiming (for 1 Million ISK in mineral value) - while others would definitely be worth it.
In the world of low/null sec, of course this does little to nothing at all.
In many ways, psychologically, I think this would promote more miners into null sec. By having to deal with "parasite" miners and having to spend money on "claiming" rocks to protect them from others - many miners would find Null sec a place to "strike it rich and control their destiny" - since there you don't have to spend the money on "Flags" or parasite miners would be taken care of by your alliance.
Although maybe not a huge deterrent to high sec mining, it becomes a psychological one - which is a greater force than any "financial" incentive. People hate more than anything the sensation of being "robbed" or having to worry about being "robbed" - I would say enough that they'd like to take the risk of Null sec more seriously as an option.
I'd say the above ideas pretty much would make botting a highly limited scope activity. Relying on a system that would need multiple people to cooperate and also facilitate the botters on a level much more challenging than "get in a ship and head to the belt to mine." Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Zargyl
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 07:58:00 -
[77] - Quote
Nice idea Mors! I would be all for it
|
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
56
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 08:02:00 -
[78] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:In the 7+ years I've played this game, I think I might have mined maybe twice. Max. It was not for me. That being said, mining is one of the most important and fundamental aspects of Eve and it has never been improved upon since the start of the game. I'd like to share my thoughts on why it's so important and what could be done to revitalize this lackluster and horribly unrewarding profession.
This is an excellent starting point. Making visual cues as to mineral content is a good idea to make bot mining incredibly difficult, and it add a level of player skill that gives some value added to the profession. Also adding the possibility of striking it rich (hitting the "motherload" so to speak) is a good added incentive too. After you start mining it does not take long on a spreadsheet or calculator to plot your maximum ISK output per hour, hence why so many miners have multiple accounts. Adding a level of uncertainty to that would be a welcome surprise.
|
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
248
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 08:03:00 -
[79] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:There would be 2 parts to the PVP element of the above now.
You could "Combat Scan Probe" other miners and just go to see what they're doing to "steal" the ore that they've already found - basically parasitic mining off the hard work of "legitimate" miners and miner explorers.
That would SERIOUSLY **** off miners (and would definitely cause a few Miner wars, I already am laughing about hearing about the next great Miner war because of this).
This would lead to interesting behaviors on the "risk vs reward" element of mining - and how you counter parasitic miners.
The other PVP avenue is that you could implement some of the above ideas about "can flipping for belts".
The concept would be simple - you could "Plant a Flag" for your corporation on a rock. The item would load into some kind of probe launcher, let's say. It would be relatively expensive to manufacture - 1 Million ISK and it would basically set a beacon on the rock that anyone who mines it that isn't a member of that corp/alliance would get flagged for "stealing". This would feed into the economy of mining (some ore goes back into just claiming rocks) and would feed into the idea of "Risk VS Reward".
By mining that rock, the corp that is being "stolen" from can decide how to aggress the thief (just like with can flipping).
At that point, some rocks simply wouldn't (and shouldn't) be worth claiming (for 1 Million ISK in mineral value) - while others would definitely be worth it.
In the world of low/null sec, of course this does little to nothing at all.
In many ways, psychologically, I think this would promote more miners into null sec. By having to deal with "parasite" miners and having to spend money on "claiming" rocks to protect them from others - many miners would find Null sec a place to "strike it rich and control their destiny" - since there you don't have to spend the money on "Flags" or parasite miners would be taken care of by your alliance.
Although maybe not a huge deterrent to high sec mining, it becomes a psychological one - which is a greater force than any "financial" incentive. People hate more than anything the sensation of being "robbed" or having to worry about being "robbed" - I would say enough that they'd like to take the risk of Null sec more seriously as an option.
I'd say the above ideas pretty much would make botting a highly limited scope activity. Relying on a system that would need multiple people to cooperate and also facilitate the botters on a level much more challenging than "get in a ship and head to the belt to mine."
Great ideas Bloodpetal! I really like the idea of other players trying to leverage an experts hard work and siphon off their new found riches. I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
|
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
326
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 08:24:00 -
[80] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:Great ideas Bloodpetal! I really like the idea of other players trying to leverage an experts hard work and siphon off their new found riches.
Right, so in the Risk VS Reward scheme of things, small fast nodes that are more profitable/harder to find are also more valuable in terms of the miners not being discovered because they've moved on so quickly versus a large open site that exposes you to more parasitic behavior. Eventually, I figure that large belts that are more typical of "todays" belts would still be representative, but miners would still have to be probed out, and eventually I imagine large groups of miners would start to congregate at a site that is large enough to maintain a certain population, when that site is saturated you get the behavior of groups going out to find the next similar sites.
In High Sec this dynamic would work very well I'd imagine.
For NPCs I'd say that beacons should pop up randomly on the belt to identify where they are (kind of how Belts currently have triangles). These belt rats would allow pilots to fly to random parts of the belt in a quasi-exploratory manner without requiring to scan down a part of the belt, and might even give "clues" that there is something special somewhere within the vicinity.
Kind of like a little notice system. Also, I think anyone mining a rock should get a random NPC spawn (without a beacon, since that gives away their position too easily). This keeps things interesting.
This plays into an idea the CCP devs had about "segregating" exploration sites into "Deep Space" and "near Space", deep space sites would be more valuable and beyond the farthest planet, while intra-solar sites would be less valuable and easier - segregating the types of sites.
In this way, the belt would represent locations for typical belt mining (I think some grav sites should exist, but should be deep space sites now). The belt system would be interesting to see, but I figure there'd be pretty standard layouts and types of configurations that could be found hidden amongst the belts and would keep it somewhat predictable (although not too much).
So, let's say you have the following styles of "nodes":
- Plentiful Cheap Ore Hundreds of Rocks, Smaller Rocks - Caters to large groups of active miners - small rocks mean that rocks disappear quickly and require full attention, satisfies larger mining operations that want to sit in one place for a long time.
- Plentiful Cheap Ore, Large Rocks, Few Rocks - This satisfies more AFK miners, with some "flag planting" to deter "belt parasites" might be sufficient enough to let some AFK miners claim the site. Since they're AFK they might not notice the parasites hitting their rocks as often, alternately they could setup a trap to pretend to be AFK miners and have PVPers ready to nuke the parasite miner. Risk VS Reward
- Limited Valuable Ore, Many Small Rocks - Caters to large corp expeditions that want to get some valuable rocks while on the move.
- Limited Valuable Ore, One Large Rock - Caters to "sit down and mine what i just found" goodies for one or 2 players - susceptible to Parasitic miners due to extended period of sitting in one place.
- Very Valuable Ore, Small Quantitty - Caters to the Solo explorer miner who wants that big rich hit in one place. Goes in, makes it rich fast and gets out. In theory.
Just playing with some ideas on configurations for these valuable mining layouts that need to be found and how you can cater to different styles of miners with different configs and value of ores.
I think overall the value/quantity of minerals needs to go up to offset the amount of time it takes to find these places, but should be interesting to see how that gets balanced and how it feeds into the system.
The other interesting thing is if these belts are actually environmentally "inconvenient" and "tight" enough that to get to some ores without a lot of navigation you have to "mine" through rocks to work your way back there and into range of what you want. If belts were 100Km wide with rocks densely packed, you'd actually want to make a "hole" for yourself to fit the Orca near you - this becomes a part of manipulating your environment to cater to your needs. One of the first things a mining crew might do when they arrive is clear out a central bubble out of a dense belt to get in there so you can get to the ore you want.
The logistics to clearing out a site would also be part of the technical skill in execution.
A big part of this is technical limitations in rendering these many rocks (many would just be bigger I would say) but also tracking them. How scalable is that for PVP engagements (large ones too, if they find their way to a belt)? Also the "size" of the bounding circle on asteroids curently is WAY too big and you will bounce off of "thin air" if you try and navigate through rocks - this would definitely need to be fixed. Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
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Stonecold Steve
I N E X T R E M I S
49
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 09:15:00 -
[81] - Quote
Good idea! GÇ£Quod licet Iovi non licet boviGÇ¥- Gods may do what cattle may not."-á--á"We are all slaves of the economy." - "Information in eve is the black gold back in the industrial age". |
Sheena Tzash
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 14:38:00 -
[82] - Quote
Personally I would like to see the ACT of mining to be more fun.
Having a bonus that is random doesn't mean it'll be more fun - it basically means that the people who mine the MOST will get the bonus dropped more often because they are there all day and all night long and therefore much more likely to get it.
The way I see it you could kill two birds with one stone, both bots AND make it more fun by changing mining into a mini game of its own.
Imagine that you land onto a belt and you start up the strip miners - as they run you have a mini game running which:
1) If you don't do anything at all will still bring in the ore - afk / low attention mining is still ok but it would require the user to do SOMETHING every so often to make sure they are not AFK for a stupid long time.
2) If you DO something you'll get a better yield than going AFK
3) The mini game requires an element of skill to get the best out of
4) Skills will make the mini game easier or provide more yield.
5) Mini game is actually fun!
This means that players who actually mine at the keyboard will get the most (maybe as much as 50 - 100% more than AFK miners), the AFK miners only work in short bursts (which is fine if you want to chill, answer the phone or chat in local without worrying too much) and bots won't be able to operate at all / as well if they can't play the mini game.
I think some of the appeal of mining is that its quite stress free (in high sec) and its something you can do with a few mins or a few hours and we can't take that away - but we should also be able to provide an incentive to allow miners to actually enjoy their profession and be able to get the very most out of the profession over AFK miners and bots. |
Nyssa Litari
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
24
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 15:49:00 -
[83] - Quote
Sheena Tzash wrote:Personally I would like to see the ACT of mining to be more fun.
Having a bonus that is random doesn't mean it'll be more fun - it basically means that the people who mine the MOST will get the bonus dropped more often because they are there all day and all night long and therefore much more likely to get it.
The way I see it you could kill two birds with one stone, both bots AND make it more fun by changing mining into a mini game of its own.
Imagine that you land onto a belt and you start up the strip miners - as they run you have a mini game running which:
1) If you don't do anything at all will still bring in the ore - afk / low attention mining is still ok but it would require the user to do SOMETHING every so often to make sure they are not AFK for a stupid long time.
2) If you DO something you'll get a better yield than going AFK
3) The mini game requires an element of skill to get the best out of
4) Skills will make the mini game easier or provide more yield.
5) Mini game is actually fun!
This means that players who actually mine at the keyboard will get the most (maybe as much as 50 - 100% more than AFK miners), the AFK miners only work in short bursts (which is fine if you want to chill, answer the phone or chat in local without worrying too much) and bots won't be able to operate at all / as well if they can't play the mini game.
I think some of the appeal of mining is that its quite stress free (in high sec) and its something you can do with a few mins or a few hours and we can't take that away - but we should also be able to provide an incentive to allow miners to actually enjoy their profession and be able to get the very most out of the profession over AFK miners and bots. The thing of it is mining, as it is, is actually a blast when done as a group. You and ten friends in your corporation sit around and eat through a single field in about an hour. All the while you have haulers making runs back and forth. You have the Orca tractoring cans and boosting the barges / frigates / cruisers. And all the while, all of you are jabbering about everything or nothing, posting links to goofy pictures in chat. Meanwhile, you have scouts looking for the next location for the group because this field's about to go dry.
At least, when I bothered to mine a year or so ago, that's how it went. Corporate mining operations were both lucrative and fun, and they could also be part of a supply chain.
The single best proposal in this thread is to remove mineral drops from rogue drones. The rest is pretty good also, but I'd not want to see anything done that turned mining into a solo activity like PI. That's actually one of the chief problems with PI at the moment. It's a solo activity in an MMO. Mining should be at its best when you mine with your buddies. Heck, that's the whole reason for having smallish cargo holds on mining barges. |
Karash Amerius
Sutoka
32
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 16:19:00 -
[84] - Quote
Bunny Sweetcheeks wrote:Very nice post and ideas. It certainly got me thinking about the 95 / 5 - visual inspection - good vs slag roids.
How would these slag roids work. Mine them and get nothing? Still takes a bot one cycle to determine if they got anything.
People keep missing this because a lot of real human players just don't mine anything in this game...but, to be clear he is talking about YIELD, not what you get in your cargo hold per mining laser cycle. You still get XXX number of Veldspar, but once you refine it....it gives you balls next to nothing yield in Trit.
Hope that clears thing up. |
Yvette Sebastior
Aurora Stellar Dynamics
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 16:32:00 -
[85] - Quote
Great ideas OP. +1 |
Bunny Sweetcheeks
Boundless Hypocrisy
14
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 00:02:00 -
[86] - Quote
Karash Amerius wrote:Bunny Sweetcheeks wrote:Very nice post and ideas. It certainly got me thinking about the 95 / 5 - visual inspection - good vs slag roids.
How would these slag roids work. Mine them and get nothing? Still takes a bot one cycle to determine if they got anything.
People keep missing this because a lot of real human players just don't mine anything in this game...but, to be clear he is talking about YIELD, not what you get in your cargo hold per mining laser cycle. You still get XXX number of Veldspar, but once you refine it....it gives you balls next to nothing yield in Trit. Hope that clears thing up.
I *think* you talking about me when you say "... to be clear he is talking about...."
I understood what the OP meant. I was just going through the various ways of implementation and how a bot might overcome it.
The starting point for me (and not what the OP intended) would be from the point of view of the easiest to implement if I were CCP. And the easiest would be if you mine a slag_roid you would get nothing in your cargo. Much like the salvager works now when a cycle produces nothing. You get nothing but a message telling you that you got nothing! :)
And the analysis for how a bot would interpret that started there. If a bot just started targeting roids and mining using the something vs nothing approach it would only take one cycle to know if you need to continue mining the roid or move on.
I then go onto various versions of "you get something from a roid even if it's crap" and how a bot would approach that.
Hope that makes sense. - Bunny |
Bartholemu Fu-Baz
The Scope Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 00:36:00 -
[87] - Quote
Janus Nightmare wrote:Oh! I had another thought.
Mining could use a bit more of a PvP aspect to it that may help with bots as well. One of the most annoying things in mining is when some troll comes along and intentionally mines every rock you're trying to mine, just to keep you from getting that ore. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while I'll run across someone who wants to be a griefer like that.
Now, my suggestion for this, rather than install some sort of "rule" that the GM's have to get involved with in order to prevent this sort of griefing, I say you make it an act of piracy similar to can flipping.
So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.
Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.
Just a thought :)
I like this idea. May need some polish as far as fleet and lag mitigation is concerned.
Fleets can mine the same rocks and the rock isn't yours unless you've been mining it for a full cycle maybe?
|
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 01:46:00 -
[88] - Quote
Another thought that I just had was having Salvage be the replacement for loot regardless of the source of the wreck. So no matter if the wreck was PC or NPC, the only things that you would get from it would be salvage of some sort or another. There could even be new types of salvage that would represent ruined mods and ammo.
I was thinking about it and BPC's (while elegant) don't really make sense to me. I mean, if they are paper, how do they survive the fiery ball of death caused by the ship popping? Even if they were held in some form of electronic format, it still wouldn't make sense for them to survive the blast.
It wouldn't step on salvagers toes either as you could make the loot-salvage be not nearly as much as you get from actually salvaging the wreck or potentially far inferior to what you get from actually using the salvager mod.
Cue suicide gankers from trade hubs belittling/crying/raging about this suggestion in 3, 2, 1...... Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been |
Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis Dragehund
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 04:57:00 -
[89] - Quote
Sheena Tzash wrote:Personally I would like to see the ACT of mining to be more fun.
Having a bonus that is random doesn't mean it'll be more fun - it basically means that the people who mine the MOST will get the bonus dropped more often because they are there all day and all night long and therefore much more likely to get it.
The way I see it you could kill two birds with one stone, both bots AND make it more fun by changing mining into a mini game of its own.
Imagine that you land onto a belt and you start up the strip miners - as they run you have a mini game running which:
1) If you don't do anything at all will still bring in the ore - afk / low attention mining is still ok but it would require the user to do SOMETHING every so often to make sure they are not AFK for a stupid long time.
2) If you DO something you'll get a better yield than going AFK
3) The mini game requires an element of skill to get the best out of
4) Skills will make the mini game easier or provide more yield.
5) Mini game is actually fun!
This means that players who actually mine at the keyboard will get the most (maybe as much as 50 - 100% more than AFK miners), the AFK miners only work in short bursts (which is fine if you want to chill, answer the phone or chat in local without worrying too much) and bots won't be able to operate at all / as well if they can't play the mini game.
I think some of the appeal of mining is that its quite stress free (in high sec) and its something you can do with a few mins or a few hours and we can't take that away - but we should also be able to provide an incentive to allow miners to actually enjoy their profession and be able to get the very most out of the profession over AFK miners and bots.
I've seen the Mini game idea pop up a couple of times, and while it sounds interesting...do you really want to be distracted while you are sitting duck? All the posts on how to not get ganked while mining High Sec usually involve watching D-Scan, keep you hulk moving (that is a mini game in it's self, aligning to a new object every 2 mins or so, and not very fun after a hour) and so on. I've never mined Low/Null and can't imagine it would be any better down there.
The idea I've had for mining I picked up from David Webers "The Armageddon Inheritance" . In one part, they are useing Warships to rip apart planets, roids, and such into slag that is hauled to smelters to be broken down as ore. I kinda see this is mining lasers/stripminers are doing, in a way.
I like the idea of having to go out, blow up the roids with heavy weapons, and then have the miners move in to vacuum up the bits. This could be done solo, or bring a new level to Corp mining Ops by using the non-miners to break down the roids and fit in more than flying a mining laser equipped CA for meager mining amounts. I make the sharp pointy things that you use to make things go BOOM! -áWithout me, you wouldn't have those sharp pointy things, and without you, I wouldn't have a reason to make those sharp pointy things. |
Instrument Dealer
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 17:45:00 -
[90] - Quote
Love the ideas in here |
|
Fish Hunter
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing Renaissance Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 17:41:00 -
[91] - Quote
Having certain minerals only available in lowsec and nullsec would go a long way to fixing mining
Dropping meta bpcs could be a nice solution to the rats |
Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate True Reign
250
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 17:51:00 -
[92] - Quote
Fish Hunter wrote:Having certain minerals only available in lowsec and nullsec would go a long way to fixing mining
Dropping meta bpcs could be a nice solution to the rats
how about
rats drop damaged meta mods that require mins to repair?
I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh. I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
313
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 18:21:00 -
[93] - Quote
OP's idea is pretty good really. The problem is that you have to deal with bots which inspect EVE"s memory space or uses python hooks. I wonder if you could do some sort of encryption to make that more difficult, though? |
Zakarumit CZ
Black Core Federation Intrepid Crossing
6
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 19:43:00 -
[94] - Quote
I really hope CCP will do something serious with mining, because its the way how I made my first ISk and its a thing I like to do when tired from RL, just sit and watch the rocks melting. The point is that its not profitable, its full of bots, its boring etc...If CPP ever made mining botless, exciting and at least a bit profitable activity, I will love them.
tl;dr +1 |
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries Pandorum Invictus
185
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 20:10:00 -
[95] - Quote
I pray to Veldspar the next Developer "theme" is Industry, as these are some great and thought out ideas! |
Steel Heid
Risk Breakers C0NVICTED
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 08:29:00 -
[96] - Quote
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, as I'm rather new to the game. This is an idea mostly for null-sec/low-sec: a new class of super rare, super valuable minerals. They would be needed in T2/other production. They would only spawn at special scan-sites, in completely random systems, which would be far and few between. The sites would have time-to-live, and despawn by themselves after a certain period. The point is that mining ops for these materials would have to roam through large areas of space to search for them. It would be a wild-west gold-seeker sort of thing, and it could feed all kinds of PVP. |
Valei Khurelem
223
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 08:35:00 -
[97] - Quote
Joshua Aivoras wrote:I pray to Veldspar the next Developer "theme" is Industry, as these are some great and thought out ideas!
Industry needs some serious fixing, I'd like to see blueprint originals available for sale in 0.0 space so we can see some ind of economy there, something needs to be done about public lab queuing as well.
"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP." -á - CCP Ytterbium |
Samillian
Jump.Jump.Jump.
71
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 09:05:00 -
[98] - Quote
OP, an excellent post love the idea that the roids themselves are the captcha! |
Sicex
30
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 09:12:00 -
[99] - Quote
Interesting idea about the rotating asteroids. Lots of false positives is good line of thinking when fighting bots... |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
309
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 09:45:00 -
[100] - Quote
You need more than just a new mining mmechanism to revive mining as a active and competitive career option , while the OP concept is a good idea i do not think it will work since it will give a huge advantage to people who have their peak hours just after DT, while our brothers and sisters in the America s will only find empty belts
The concept is great but you need much more than this there are alot of threads floating around how it can be done and some of my favorites are these
-Replace rogue drone loot by a small bounty and better salvage, some sources indicate that a relative large proportion of minerals come from ratting bots in the drone regions
-Harder sanction if a player gets caught using Macro s
-a revival of nullsec industry, making mining more lucrative again in nullsec . this needs more than just a few changes in gamemechanics , it needs a revision of how the industry lvl upgrades work , it need a workable but balanced counter against AFK cloakers and most of all a serious mentallity change to both industry minded players and pvp oriented players I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
|
Xenuchrist
STK Scientific
7
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 10:14:00 -
[101] - Quote
Elessa Enaka wrote:Janus Nightmare wrote:Oh! I had another thought.
So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.
Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.
Just a thought :) I like that idea a lot, make it just the same as can flipping while your mining lasers are active on the asteroid. If another member of your corp decides to mine the same asteroid as you, it's not a problem. However, when someone else comes along they get flagged just the same as if they had robbed your jetcan and become a legal target for anyone in your corp. If you leave the belt though and come back to them mining "your" asteroid, you're SOL. I do think that this would help with bots, I also think that there would be those who would exploit it just as there are those who canflip to provoke miners. Either way though, I think that the positives would outweigh the negatives.
This could help a with a possible bot circumvention of the original proposition as well: Obstructing bots from simply following (perceived) non-bot players. In-game it could be justified as the rock being a claim (Klondike-style) belonging to the first miner.
---á "In human stupidity, when it is not malicious, there is something very touching, even beautiful... There always is." /Tolstoy |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
504
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 10:55:00 -
[102] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:In the 7+ years I've played this game, I think I might have mined maybe twice. Max. It was not for me. That being said, mining is one of the most important and fundamental aspects of Eve and it has never been improved upon since the start of the game. I'd like to share my thoughts on why it's so important and what could be done to revitalize this lackluster and horribly unrewarding profession.
Samere here after 10 years of eve'ing I still can count the number of mining ops I did on two hands.
Mors Sanctitatis wrote: If you've read this far, I congratulate you. Thank you for your time and attention. I look forward to constructive posts on this topic. No, it doesn't belong in "Features and Ideas". GD has more views and this isn't about a feature, it's about fixing the game as a holistic system. So, let's hear it! Thoughts?
This package would indeed solve many of the problems most have with mining. I like the the 5% contains 95% idea and the compressed "officer spawn" ore idea alot. One irks the bots, the other encourages the player.
- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Darkmus Zay
Bedlam.
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 11:01:00 -
[103] - Quote
This was Tl;Dr so dunno what you are saying.
All I know is that we are swimming in cheap minerals to keep the engines running in 0.0. Players are getting to rich, so maybe all we need is higher prices on minerals. and only the miners can do that. |
Cosmos Serendipity
BRAHMA CORP
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 12:39:00 -
[104] - Quote
The only catch I can see is if there is too much done, (f.ex. having to reposition and all) would be how much more difficult mining in low/null sec would become. You always want to be aligned to a pos or station and ready to warp at a moments notice. A hostile can enter system and scan you down in a very short amount of time and even if your watching local you can still lose your ship.
Now of course common sense would tell you to watch the channels, but half the time things aren't reported, and unless you have an alt just for sitting in a neighboring system/ systems someones going to pop up and suprise you. Now add in multi boxing and you've just lost a squad of hulks and maybe an orca/ rorq.
I agree that changes need to be made, just keep in mind the unintended consequences. |
LordSwift
Aurora Section
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 13:13:00 -
[105] - Quote
I think a good boost to mining would be to have scan sites with a,b,c ores in to give the odd miner a good boost to their income. not a huge field mind you. Mal: "If anyone gets nosy, just...you know... shoot 'em. "
Zoe: "Shoot 'em?"
Mal: "Politely." |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
504
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 13:51:00 -
[106] - Quote
Kaylyis wrote: Put in a code to monitor whether another program (besides windows or whatever) is interacting with the client directly and flag the character. have CCP manually check the flags. Not a scan program that says "this person's using X programs LAWL!" a program that basically tells when another program is directly accessing the player side client. Before you ***** about legality, it's pretty much how blizz caught the early hacks in WoW like the speederbot.
Aye, from what CCP Creegs has been telling bots who insert code into the client are easier to pick up on because they alter files and what not. - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 14:10:00 -
[107] - Quote
You've made a well constructed argument for a change to the area of the game that doesn't directly effect you..... you're playingthe forum wrong.
You're supposed to whinne heavily about something you think will hugely benefit you but in actual fact will scew the game for everyone.
That said, I really like your ideas. I was all set for a "GAH JUST BUFFING ORES WILL JUST LEAD TO THE SAME RESULTS!!" but you've actually thought this out.
+1 |
Elisha Starkiller
Viziam Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 14:28:00 -
[108] - Quote
Great Idea! im not a Miner but i do feel sorry for them as a PVP'er i require their efforts! :D |
Ryoko Matsu
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 14:30:00 -
[109] - Quote
+1
good ideas, sounds nice.... ...but i think pew-pew/miner ganking is more important to ccp and the csm -.-
and yeah i hate bots *arrr* |
J Kunjeh
343
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 14:51:00 -
[110] - Quote
Cosmos Serendipity wrote:The only catch I can see is if there is too much done, (f.ex. having to reposition and all) would be how much more difficult mining in low/null sec would become. You always want to be aligned to a pos or station and ready to warp at a moments notice. A hostile can enter system and scan you down in a very short amount of time and even if your watching local you can still lose your ship.
Now of course common sense would tell you to watch the channels, but half the time things aren't reported, and unless you have an alt just for sitting in a neighboring system/ systems someones going to pop up and suprise you. Now add in multi boxing and you've just lost a squad of hulks and maybe an orca/ rorq.
I agree that changes need to be made, just keep in mind the unintended consequences.
All of these are reasons why you don't mine alone (if these changes were to go into effect, that is). These changes seem tailored to encourage mining ops, which is exactly what mining should be in lower sec space.
"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
|
T'Laar Bok
45
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 15:08:00 -
[111] - Quote
A lot of great ideas here. A+
However I've been mining 7+ years its all I do and all I want to do (roids are evil) and have no reward to show for it.
I can still only mine as much as someone about 7 months old. Where is my reward for time served like PVP-ers get with ever increasing ships and skills?
To me it seems inherently unfair that mining basically "Ends Game" at the 7-12 month mark.
No idea how to fix it but I do believe it needs fixing. Amphetimines are your friend. |
ariana ailith
Aribar Conglomerate
41
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 15:18:00 -
[112] - Quote
mullet nugget wrote:these are some really good ideas. however mining has been improved several times since the beginning. orcas, ore compression, etc.
that being said, the bots are THE main problem. it's f'ing ridiculous how lenient CCP is on these people. it's like they are more concerned with collecting the botter's monthly fees than pleasing the people who play the game to have fun.
Not ridiculous at all, from CCP's pov they're just subscribers. |
Gordon Fell
Acura Tech
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 15:27:00 -
[113] - Quote
Yeah, I like most ideas. Mining is awesome in theory (building stuff from nothing) but in practice industry just revolves around buying cheap minerals and have some spreadsheets tell what you need to click in your industry window.
I like the visual mining thing best. Perpetuum has a similar system, check it out:
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4788/perpetuum0035.png |
Cosmos Serendipity
BRAHMA CORP
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 15:43:00 -
[114] - Quote
J Kunjeh wrote:Cosmos Serendipity wrote:The only catch I can see is if there is too much done, (f.ex. having to reposition and all) would be how much more difficult mining in low/null sec would become. You always want to be aligned to a pos or station and ready to warp at a moments notice. A hostile can enter system and scan you down in a very short amount of time and even if your watching local you can still lose your ship.
Now of course common sense would tell you to watch the channels, but half the time things aren't reported, and unless you have an alt just for sitting in a neighboring system/ systems someones going to pop up and suprise you. Now add in multi boxing and you've just lost a squad of hulks and maybe an orca/ rorq.
I agree that changes need to be made, just keep in mind the unintended consequences. All of these are reasons why you don't mine alone (if these changes were to go into effect, that is). These changes seem tailored to encourage mining ops, which is exactly what mining should be in lower sec space.
That would force me to stay in high sec since most alliances are dead at the time I'm on, and my time is limited with rl work. Guess I could just switch to ganking.... |
Master Ventris
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 16:04:00 -
[115] - Quote
I think this is a great idea, but there is an issue with displaying the different ores that give different yields.
The database.
The way the inventory works is going to cause an issue. Yes, you can have 2 items with the same name but different item IDs in the database, this isn't a problem.
For example (no idea how the eve database is actually implemented) here is a Standard Veldspar database entry
Item ID: 0001 Item Name: Veldspar Volume: 1 Yield: 100
If you have a stack of 10 Veldspar in you inventory you have an entry like
Item ID: 0001 Quantity: 10
where it looks up the Item ID to tell you its Veldspar.
Now you have another item with the same name, different ID, eg slag veldspar
Item ID: 0002 Item Name: Veldspar Volume: 1 Yield: 1
Then you have a stack of 10 of each in your inventory
Item ID: 0001 Quantity: 10 Item ID: 0002 Quantity: 10
It now looks like 2 seperate stacks of veldspar, but they will not stack together. This will immediatley tell you that something is different between them, and a quick refine will tell you what. This could cause an issue where complex bots can work out good ore anyway, or atleast it makes for an untidy inventory where you arent sure what you have. |
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra Gallente Federation
173
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 16:19:00 -
[116] - Quote
Master Ventris wrote:I think this is a great idea, but there is an issue with displaying the different ores that give different yields.
The database.
The way the inventory works is going to cause an issue. Yes, you can have 2 items with the same name but different item IDs in the database, this isn't a problem.
For example (no idea how the eve database is actually implemented) here is a Standard Veldspar database entry
Item ID: 0001 Item Name: Veldspar Volume: 1 Yield: 100
If you have a stack of 10 Veldspar in you inventory you have an entry like
Item ID: 0001 Quantity: 10
where it looks up the Item ID to tell you its Veldspar.
Now you have another item with the same name, different ID, eg slag veldspar
Item ID: 0002 Item Name: Veldspar Volume: 1 Yield: 1
Then you have a stack of 10 of each in your inventory
Item ID: 0001 Quantity: 10 Item ID: 0002 Quantity: 10
It now looks like 2 seperate stacks of veldspar, but they will not stack together. This will immediatley tell you that something is different between them, and a quick refine will tell you what. This could cause an issue where complex bots can work out good ore anyway, or atleast it makes for an untidy inventory where you arent sure what you have.
That kind of system actually seems like a great idea to counter bots since some of the bots are OCR-based programs (which are hard to find). But like it was said before, complex bots could simply activate the survey scanner to check for composition. In this case, it's best to just remove the scanner's ability to tell which roid has become nothing but slag so that the miners are forced to mine the whole thing because they are not sure as to which is slag and which is not. On top of that, I would recommend randomizing the level of slag as well. |
J Kunjeh
343
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 16:21:00 -
[117] - Quote
Cosmos Serendipity wrote:J Kunjeh wrote:Cosmos Serendipity wrote:The only catch I can see is if there is too much done, (f.ex. having to reposition and all) would be how much more difficult mining in low/null sec would become. You always want to be aligned to a pos or station and ready to warp at a moments notice. A hostile can enter system and scan you down in a very short amount of time and even if your watching local you can still lose your ship.
Now of course common sense would tell you to watch the channels, but half the time things aren't reported, and unless you have an alt just for sitting in a neighboring system/ systems someones going to pop up and suprise you. Now add in multi boxing and you've just lost a squad of hulks and maybe an orca/ rorq.
I agree that changes need to be made, just keep in mind the unintended consequences. All of these are reasons why you don't mine alone (if these changes were to go into effect, that is). These changes seem tailored to encourage mining ops, which is exactly what mining should be in lower sec space. That would force me to stay in high sec since most alliances are dead at the time I'm on, and my time is limited with rl work. Guess I could just switch to ganking....
Notice that I said "in lower sec space". Mining alone would still be a viable, if less lucrative, option in HS. "The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2949
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 16:24:00 -
[118] - Quote
I have my own ideas on how to save it and the only thing it didnt involve was actual visual spin rates. Either way thoughtful and idea spurring.
|
Liz Laser
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 17:50:00 -
[119] - Quote
CCP, read this thread and make it happen.
Thanks. |
Arian Blade
Virtual Warriors IMPERIAL LEGI0N
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 00:06:00 -
[120] - Quote
Hi there, Just a response to a very interesting thread, I like a lot of the ideas expressed, (officer spawn equivalents) and a more interactive mining process.
Initially I really liked the "captcha" style visual queue dynamic but then that evil little part of my brain that over analyses everything kicked in (I have worked in useability). Whatever is used to differentiate 'roids and there yields would have to be robust enough to be understandable regardless of graphics settings, this in itself may not be difficult but then I thought about flaws and workarounds inherent to "captcha" and other visual media.
"Captcha" has an audio option as unfortunately many people have visual impairments to differing degrees. I am unsure as to the veracity of statistics but I am seeing stats of 6-8% of the male population suffering red/green colour blindness as just one example. This means that any visual recognition system risks effecting an amount of the user base if not implemented in a sympathetic manner (I am looking at this as effecting the "vaining idea"). Please dont take this as an attack on the idea as I personally really like it and support of any idea that makes more aspects of this game fun as at the end of the day thats what games are for and different people play in this sandbox in different ways.
Okay so now I put my potential spanner in the works maybe I should try to add something to the mix hmmm.... okay how about this.....
Mining continues as now but with the rotational idea maybe denoting asteroid density (showing potential mineral content maybe) but how about once you select your asteroid some sort of mini game style thing happens? possibilties could be...
Idea 1, copying is the sincerest flattery...
Mass effect 2 style probing mini game using a audio/ visual queue as you hover over a asteroid representation to find the best areas of the asteroid to hit with your mining lasers. if you choose poorly (or not at all in the case of afk miners) you get a poorer yield (mining skills could improve the accuracy of the audio/ visual queue or the resolution you could scan at maybe). You could also have the rare "ultra dense" drops show as a special anolomoly on this that you may miss if you do not check thoroughly) If you have not played mass effect 2 there are loads of vids on youtube of the probing mechanic but my forum foo is weak and I cant make a working linky.
Idea 2, use a similar mechanic already in place....
How about the "heat map" from PI also becomes audio and is adapted to be used on asteroids to again show relative potential yield areas with the same "if you choose poorly (or not at all in the case of afk miners) you get a poorer yield" mechanism I mentioned above. Obviously the visual heat map will need to be robust enough or the colour scale changeable to allow for visual impairment. Also as with PI you could simulate resource depletion so it rewards people interacting more and finding the best mining laser site at any given time. Skills can effect the audio/visual representation in a way similar to PI and through properly exploring the asteroids you may find the "super duper dense officer mining equivalent" that an afk miner will not further rewarding people actually actively mining.
Possible fall out of proposed mining "improvements"
Okay those are 2 ideas that someone elsewhere may have already had but I didn't spot (sorry if this is the case and its not intended as an offence) but what could be the result of making mining better through a "mini game mechanic"?
As is already known people like to min max where possible, by adding a new element to the equation to take concentration you run the risk of not spotting other things (like that hostile that just came into system or the new belt rats etc). I am not actually saying this is a bad thing (I am actually a null sec raider and would love more chance that a miner may not spot my entry into local but I feel this mini game idea, due to concentration required to attain the best results will actually help keep the "risk/reward" mechanic in place.
While were at it why are asteroids "only" positive?
Also on the subject of min maxing fits I had a random idea, why are asteroids only a resource? why not make them the trigger for rat spawns or even have them shoot back? using the two mechanics listed above how about not having all finds positive?
You could have some asteroid anomolies that are negative, for example...
You accidently spooked a hidden pirate hideout and they boil out of hiding to protect there hideaway (maybe handled as simply as a player generated belt spawn) The asteroid actually has camoflaged weapon implacements and starts shooting at you itself and you must now incapacitate the defences or even leave its vicinity if you cannot.
Hell go wild people, I am sure others can come up with cool alternative asteroid anomolies both positive and negative.
The mechanic of sec status could be used to govern the likelyhood of these "negative and positive anomolies" and the severity when they occur and skills could help you spot these special anomolies more easily and avoid them or not as required. This will add an element of balance into people fitting there mining ships as they have to consider if they can survive a potential "negative anomoly" which again helps the risk/reward mechanic.
Okay...wow I was only intending to make a short reply and now I have written a horrible wall o' text so I had better bring this to an end and let other people with good ideas get there say, oh and in before any of my corpies point out they have never seen me in a mining ship (there right for just the reason this thread exists, mining is boring ) but if it was made more about exploring and more.. fun.. I just might |
|
minijack1
Virtual Warriors IMPERIAL LEGI0N
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 00:32:00 -
[121] - Quote
LOL the thought of Arian Blade in a mining barge.
My thoughts on the matter. I would love to see improvments to the way mining is done, I unlike my corpie here, have mined, infact i sometimes mine while on PvP operations (dont tell the FC please). It would be so much better if there was a way of getting more out of what you do when mining.
The ideas Arian has put forward i like, though the drawbacks are there of not being able to watch the blet fo rats etc. but mining needs something like that, something to make pilots have to think, and also get more rewards for thinking.
Some additional ideas for the negative effects: Gas pocket in one of the asteroids, goes of like a smart bomb, could be shown by a realy low density patch on the rock. Bad ore that has a large volume and refines down to very little.
If mining became more interesting you might find me mining rather than killing miners. Though it will take quite a change to do that, killling indusrtial ships is so much fun. |
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
50
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 01:02:00 -
[122] - Quote
Xenuchrist wrote:Elessa Enaka wrote:Janus Nightmare wrote:Oh! I had another thought.
So if I'm sitting in a belt and some Hulk comes along and starts mining the exact same rock I'm mining from, I get to shoot him. I think this would work for bots because every bot I've ever seen pays little attention to other miners and just starts mining the biggest rocks in the belt. So along comes a bot, unwittingly starts mining my rocks, and I get that gank-fitted Tornado I've got hiding in my Orca and pop his Hulk.
Now THAT would make mining more interesting and introduce a little extra risk to the profession.
Just a thought :) I like that idea a lot, make it just the same as can flipping while your mining lasers are active on the asteroid. If another member of your corp decides to mine the same asteroid as you, it's not a problem. However, when someone else comes along they get flagged just the same as if they had robbed your jetcan and become a legal target for anyone in your corp. If you leave the belt though and come back to them mining "your" asteroid, you're SOL. I do think that this would help with bots, I also think that there would be those who would exploit it just as there are those who canflip to provoke miners. Either way though, I think that the positives would outweigh the negatives. This could help a with a possible bot circumvention of the original proposition as well: Obstructing bots from simply following (perceived) non-bot players. In-game it could be justified as the rock being a claim (Klondike-style) belonging to the first miner.
Yeah, TBH, I never understood why there wasn't some form of "claim" system in place for miners. After all, each faction has a prospector certificate, though no other link whatsoever to prospecting (outside of perhaps, scanning for gravs) Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been Eve is a great game if you can get past all of the asshats.... |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
338
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 01:06:00 -
[123] - Quote
Just give miners a new ship and they will be happy for a long time. More ships in EVE the better off everyone is. |
ThinWhite Duke
The Red Circle Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 01:30:00 -
[124] - Quote
I would rather see mining become more like exploration, do away with the static belts and let miners search for flying comets that travel through systems. So you find it through some way ( probing maybe) , when on grid the comet is actually moving and not static. The trick then is to find out where the hotspots in the asteroid are akin to PI hotspots. Once you know where they are the actual mining will take a fraction of the time. But could maybe require that you manually fly the ship to keep up with the moving comet
In general make mining more about finding it, instead of doing something else while mining.
In general I see no real future in the current scheme of parking a mining boat and suck rocks, so let's make the finding interesting, and keep mining to a minimum.
Or maybe think in the lines of PI, setting up PI was ok, running PI is boring as hell. So make a sort minigame where miners set up a mining collony on the asteroid, and once completed it will suck it dry unattended for 1 hour after which you can pick up the ore. |
Stridsflygplan
Back Breaker Battalion Back Breaker Brigade
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 02:50:00 -
[125] - Quote
I like it, you came up with ideas that CCP have not been thinking off. |
Roime
UNFRL Fleet Operations CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
140
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 12:51:00 -
[126] - Quote
OP,
could you try and pass your ideas via the formal channels (Jita park or whatever it takes for this to reach CSM and CCP), some of the freshest ideas I've seen on the forums.
I once visioned that mining could work a bit like the PI scanning interface, you would rotate the asteroid in order to find hotspots & nuggets visually, and then target your lasers there for max yield. Anyway the final details of the "interactive minigame" of mining 2.0 are best left to the professionals :)
I just fully support anything that increases the human part of mining, and anything that makes mining more fun and profitable. The miners deserve some love!
|
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries Pandorum Invictus
189
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 22:27:00 -
[127] - Quote
Dbars Grinding wrote:Just give miners a new ship and they will be happy for a long time. More ships in EVE the better off everyone is.
Would much rather prefer them to fix the broken ships that already exist first, like the lolcurer. |
Stetson Eagle
ROC Academy The ROC
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 22:53:00 -
[128] - Quote
Good to get this into discussion! A few years back the same idea was suggested in the features & ideas forum. Mining could be improved by a mini-game and by rare loot.
The suggestion back then had the two combined: *The rare loot would refine into crystals used by mining lasers, providing immense boost to mining speed when used. *These crystals, by nature, would be fragile so that when spotted, they would require careful mining laser frequency and intensity juggling to aquire. Damaging the crystals by not finding the right laser calibration in time would either destroy the loot or provide worse quality crystals, which would expire faster when used. *An "officer spawn epic mining diamond" would have the potential to mine at quadruple speed for days on |
Karthwritte
Darthrin Storm Enterprise Drunken Capsuleers
24
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 04:18:00 -
[129] - Quote
Stetson Eagle wrote:Good to get this into discussion! A few years back the same idea was suggested in the features & ideas forum. Mining could be improved by a mini-game and by rare loot.
The suggestion back then had the two combined: *The rare loot would refine into crystals used by mining lasers, providing immense boost to mining speed when used. *These crystals, by nature, would be fragile so that when spotted, they would require careful mining laser frequency and intensity juggling to aquire. Damaging the crystals by not finding the right laser calibration in time would either destroy the loot or provide worse quality crystals, which would expire faster when used. *An "officer spawn epic mining diamond" would have the potential to mine at quadruple speed for days on
The other one is *ahem* making the asteroids more bigger and use PI like tools to target a place with a good density of something and get there and start mining surfaces of the asteroid. And having layers inside those big asteroids so you start mining the surface and then you can mine a layer of the asteroid and then a deeper layer of the asteroid and possibly the biggest price could be the core of the asteroid. Look real life pictures of mines and you will get the sh!t I am talking |
Hyrath Rotineque
Twilight Astro Miners Vanguard Venture Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 02:54:00 -
[130] - Quote
Huh.. it would be nice to see a patch that was dedicated to industry for once. |
|
Amaroq Dricaldari
Total Annihilation. Pandorum Invictus
42
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 01:37:00 -
[131] - Quote
ThinWhite Duke wrote:I would rather see mining become more like exploration, do away with the static belts and let miners search for flying comets that travel through systems. So you find it through some way ( probing maybe) , when on grid the comet is actually moving and not static. The trick then is to find out where the hotspots in the asteroid are akin to PI hotspots. Once you know where they are the actual mining will take a fraction of the time. But could maybe require that you manually fly the ship to keep up with the moving comet
In general make mining more about finding it, instead of doing something else while mining.
In general I see no real future in the current scheme of parking a mining boat and suck rocks, so let's make the finding interesting, and keep mining to a minimum.
Or maybe think in the lines of PI, setting up PI was ok, running PI is boring as hell. So make a sort minigame where miners set up a mining collony on the asteroid, and once completed it will suck it dry unattended for 1 hour after which you can pick up the ore. The problem is, it makes mining inaccessable for some people, and of course people hate minigames on these forums. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Bison - Ammatar Thunder Thundering Herd
303
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 01:39:00 -
[132] - Quote
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:decent idea, but if only 5% of the asteroids had any ores then only really advanced miners would ever get anything. All those people who have trained for their precious hulks would get all the minerals, and the newer players wouldnt have a chance.
There needs to be a BIT of a ladder to climb. Nothing wrong here. OMG He Spent His Free-áAURUM ! God is simply-áthe very extraordinary power of the Universe to organize Itself as percieved. -á-á- Lee Smolin "Three Roads to Quantum Gravity" |
xxVastorxx
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 01:40:00 -
[133] - Quote
mullet nugget wrote:these are some really good ideas. however mining has been improved several times since the beginning. orcas, ore compression, etc.
that being said, the bots are THE main problem. it's f'ing ridiculous how lenient CCP is on these people. it's like they are more concerned with collecting the botter's monthly fees than pleasing the people who play the game to have fun.
^ This guy knows all about them bots EH? ShadowofXDeath and LegionOfXDeath are full of Bots.! |
Citizen Smif
Comply Or Die
69
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 11:31:00 -
[134] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote: Such drops would be rare, and there would be various levels of similar drops with varying degrees of probability, but the point is that the possibility would be there. An event like that would really stand out in a player's memory- it would be an EVENT. "Man, remember that time when we found that crazy 20 unit deposit of super-ultra-mega-compressed-hyper-density-quantum-tritanium?! IT WAS AWESOME! I'M RICH!!!" <<<< That my friends is what is missing from mining.
Mors Sanctitatis wrote: IT WAS AWESOME!
You miners really are a different species to what I belong to. You should all be marginalised and made our pets, you wouldn't even notice it considering your love of menial labour. I'll toss you a bone every so often to keep you entertained but dont get me wrong.. You'll be required to wear a gimp suit and live in a cage in my basement when you're not mining. |
Okan Caldari
Stinger Corporation
5
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 11:52:00 -
[135] - Quote
Excellent post! I was mining back in 2004, and I held on for quite a while, but eventually it just got boring and non-competitive versus other ways of making isk. Pretty much all of your suggestions make a hell of a lot of sense, and your rather elegant solution for nerfing bots is brilliant.
I also agree that mining should be the basis of all production, and not be in competition with a magical mineral faucet tied into mission running.
Here's hoping that CCP will read and listen (and eventually implement). |
Wacktopia
Noir.
159
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 11:52:00 -
[136] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:What if 95% of the ore in a belt were concentrated in 5% of the asteroids? Same yield per belt, same time taken to mine the minerals etc., but the difference is that for every rock that has minerals in it, there are 9 that don't.The human operator could pick out the rocks with the minerals in them because say, all the rocks had a spin rate, generated in a random direction and axis, but the mineral-laden rocks have a spin rate that is 50% faster than barren rocks. Or maybe mineral laden rocks have more "gold flecks" in the texture, maybe 25% more, or the gold flecks are in a more veined pattern than on the other barren rocks.
This, or something like it, is actually a very good suggestion.
(Also, 5%:95% is 1:20 not 1:10 ) Apparently we're getting censored now. |
Erisia Malaclypse
The Discordian Echo
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 13:00:00 -
[137] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:In the 7+ years I've played this game, I think I might have mined maybe twice. Max. It was not for me. That being said, mining is one of the most important and fundamental aspects of Eve and it has never been improved upon since the start of the game.
I stopped reading here since the OP appears to be lacking in knowledge about stuff like, oh you know, actual changes that have happened to mining in the game since it started...
I suggest taking up the nose flute as a more rewarding way to aggrandisement. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
380
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 13:18:00 -
[138] - Quote
Quote:Mining is also the foundation upon which all production is based and is the key logistical resource that should be managed to ensure winning any large scale conflict.
This is why mining will never get fixed. Could you imagine how expensive a ship would be if CCP did as you suggested? Most people in HS would still be flying their rookie ships and would do so until the bulkheads failed.
I think CCP's inaction on mining for the past......oh since game conception....speaks volumes. Skill training is a big enough deterrent for many gamers. If they had to spend 6mos saving up enough isk to fly a ship they spent the last 2 months training for, how long do you suppose it would be until the game just died?
I agree, something has to be done for mining to make it more interesting and to deter botting but, what that is, IDK. It's going to require something a bit more sophisticated than decreasing the availability of minerals.
Getting rid of local in null would deter botting, at least the 23/7 multi-box completely AFK variety where people make billions of isk never having sat at their computers for the past week. At least with no local the botters would have to have a network of real people monitoring the system's entrances. That's something. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
IsTheOpOver
8
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 14:52:00 -
[139] - Quote
Quote: In the 7+ years I've played this game, I think I might have mined maybe twice. Max.
...stuff about what to change...
Hmm well I mine as a primary activity in eve over the last 6 years and enjoy the time I get between cycles to do other things, inside and outside of the game. I like mining the way it is. *SHOCKER*
But yeah lets have someone who's mined 2 times in 7 years tell us how it should be
|
Dunbar Hulan
The Flaming Sideburn's Art of War Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 15:02:00 -
[140] - Quote
Dear Miners,
Greetings from my country, Gallente. And by God's grace this is a warm embrace of a lifetime and mutually beneficial relationship between us, hence my writing you.
Dr. Dunbar Hulan is my name. Special Adviser on Ice Mining to the Gallente Head of State and presently, Chairman of the Contract Review Panel (C.R.P) appointed by the Gallente administration, with the mandate to re-evaluate, scrutinize, approve and recommend for payment all previously awarded and executed contracts for the Ice Mining Fund (I. M..F).I want to award you exclusive ice mining rights in Gallente.
You were introduced to me by a trusted contact in the Gallente Ministry of Foreign Trade Mission to act fast by helping me and my colleagues by transfering the sum of 25.5M ISK (Twenty Five Million, Five Hundred Thousand ISK to us. You must treat this letter with utmost confidentiality and trust. We cannot afford to toy with this rare opportunity of a lifetime. It may interest you to know that this is no Scam or fairy tale. we urgently need your assistance to send this isk to us.
Dear brother, all modalities for the successful transfer of this fund including legal and administrative requirements in Gallente as well as that of Inter Faction Arbitration has been worked out. We hope to conclude this transaction within ten (10) days once you open communication with me to furnish me your willingness needed for easy transfer of the fund: God willing brother, we can work out this transaction fast for all of us.
This is going to be my first draft to the miners , should get a few takers :)
Seriously though, I like the OP's idea, He/should strat the process of getting it onto the next CSM agenda. -áThe Sideburns- Always Outnumbered- Never Outgunned. Manchester United - Paul Scholes= Genius |
|
5p4c3 M4n
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 15:22:00 -
[141] - Quote
mullet nugget wrote:
that being said, the 'few huge 0.0 alliances' are THE main problem. it's f'ing ridiculous how lenient CCP is on these people. it's like they are more concerned with collecting the 'few huge 0.0 alliances' monthly fees than pleasing the people who play the game to have fun.
Fixed it for ya!! |
5p4c3 M4n
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.03 15:26:00 -
[142] - Quote
Also eliminate moon goo. Make ALL ships be built from minerals that can only be obtained through mining ore from a belt or a site "belt".
This would make carebears more important to 0.0 alliances instead of just their whipping posts.
And no whining about how ship prices would skyrocket... mine your own ore and build your own ships?? duh..
|
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
356
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 05:00:00 -
[143] - Quote
IsTheOpOver wrote:Quote: In the 7+ years I've played this game, I think I might have mined maybe twice. Max.
...stuff about what to change...
Hmm well I mine as a primary activity in eve over the last 6 years and enjoy the time I get between cycles to do other things, inside and outside of the game. I like mining the way it is. *SHOCKER* But yeah lets have someone who's mined 2 times in 7 years tell us how it should be
I guess there's always one in the crowd... go troll elsewhere.
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
|
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
358
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 05:05:00 -
[144] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:Quote:Mining is also the foundation upon which all production is based and is the key logistical resource that should be managed to ensure winning any large scale conflict. This is why mining will never get fixed. Could you imagine how expensive a ship would be if CCP did as you suggested? Most people in HS would still be flying their rookie ships and would do so until the bulkheads failed. I think CCP's inaction on mining for the past......oh since game conception....speaks volumes. Skill training is a big enough deterrent for many gamers. If they had to spend 6mos saving up enough isk to fly a ship they spent the last 2 months training for, how long do you suppose it would be until the game just died? I agree, something has to be done for mining to make it more interesting and to deter botting but, what that is, IDK. It's going to require something a bit more sophisticated than decreasing the availability of minerals. Getting rid of local in null would deter botting, at least the 23/7 multi-box completely AFK variety where people make billions of isk never having sat at their computers for the past week. At least with no local the botters would have to have a network of real people monitoring the system's entrances. That's something.
Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind expensive ships. It would be the same for everyone, which is just fine. I fly ultra expensive ships simply because I'm so successful at PVP that I can live off of my kills and ransoms. Very few players in Eve can do this, most everyone has the idea that pirates have a carebear alt account to produce ISK so that they can PVP. I'm sure most do, but I've never been good at grinding crappy PVE content for ISK.
Anyway, I just don't think it would be a bad thing. I think we would see more value placed on T1 ships and named modules etc., which is a good thing. I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
|
Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
232
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 05:08:00 -
[145] - Quote
I started out as a miner, and i have to say, it is very boring and the entire gameplay style just begs for botting.
I mean, you sit there, dragging a cargo full of rocks into your partner's orca once every 3 minutes. Repeat. Every day for months. You've got to be a pinhead to NOT consider macro'ing that bordom away. (and a pinhead for indeed macro'ing as well!)
Mining is, and has been forever, a very bad gameplay mechanic. Its not FUN in any sense of the word. Its simply a chore that needs to be done in order to get your space gold.
It should take work to earn money but it should have some sort of entertainment value, other then 3 minute laser cycles and drag/dropping rocks from one box to the other
The real problem is: What do you replace the mechanic with? Nobody has yet come up with a good solution. Mining needs to be in the game, in some form. Suggestions like minigames wont ever work, people play MMO's for its MMO content, not for its Bejeweld/Tetris style minigames.
And for the most part, i doubt people would even enjoy the minigame. It would just be another turn in the painful knot that is mining, and i think most people would just prefer the boring current implementation over that.
Someone needs to come up with a GOOD replacement for the mechanic, and nobody has, yet |
SigmaPi
Valkyr Industries Late Night Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 05:15:00 -
[146] - Quote
I didn't have time to read this whole thing, but pretty quality OP and good follow up ideas. I started this game as an industrialist (and to be honest I still am to some degree) but it's just no where near as rewarding as piew. I'd love for the devs to read this. |
IsTheOpOver
13
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 15:35:00 -
[147] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote: I guess there's always one in the crowd... go troll elsewhere.
What? One who's mined more than twice in 7 years? Yeah I guess I'll have to be the voice of reason.
I like also how when someone disagrees with you with your epic plan to "save mining" then they are a troll. That's your answer when you can't just blow someone up that calls you out for talking out your ass.
Use some of your mad pvp skills to blow up some miners... like a boss!
|
Heimer
Republic University Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 17:05:00 -
[148] - Quote
Mining is fine and fun the way it is -- if you're intelligent about it. The reduction of other mineral streams is coming, which will make it more lucrative (and lucrative, for me, is fun).
So mining has botters. Well, many parts of the game have botters. Luckily, mining botters pretty much have to go to static belts to do their dirty work.
This allows enterprising people to hunt them easily, and impact their numbers. (Refer to the current threads in Crime & Punishment -- that fellow from IEEE, and whereever Smodab Ongalot posted his thread about his personal war on bots. Impressive killboard there. Multiple hundreds of exhumers dead, *each month*)
The recent buffs to destroyers, to hybrid weapons, and the introduction of the tier 3 battlecruisers make bot hunting easier. (Somewhere Buck Futz's alt posted extolling the effectiveness of the tier3 BCs against miners, and his corp's killboard is filled with his solo kills and his mates' kills from smartbombing clusters of miners.)
They aren't the only players hunting.
I do find it hilarious that someone who has mined twice in his eve career is tryign to 'fix' mining. Real players do mine, and I'd go so far as to say that if you are ignorant about mining, then most changes you propose will probably ruin mining for the at-the-keyboard players who mine.
|
Sicyon
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 17:46:00 -
[149] - Quote
Being a miner myself I like the idea of having some sort of "jackpot reward" while mining. It would make for some better entertainment while mining. Maybe add some meta3/meta4 BPC in roids that you recive when you mine the whole astroid.
Would be fun to see messages while you mine: "Your Modulated Strip Miner II stumbled upon an old blueprint that has been captured by the astroid in deep space a long long time ago. The blueprint is severly damaged but it does seem to be possible to fabricate at least a few rare units before it is fully destroyed"
As for all sorts of visual effects as bot deterence measures, it would probaly destroy the game for me as i'm color blind. Trying to see different colors/veins/graphic anomalies on astroids is just not possible for me. Not sure if this is the way to go. To deter botting you are making mining harder/more of a challange or whatever measure is persued. The real solotion would be a more aggressive and active policy by CCP with specialized software and DEV-teams active trying to hunt down and ban IP and people (not just accounts) who where caught. |
Captain Sunnymuffins
Jita Customs and Excise
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:10:00 -
[150] - Quote
Well speaking as a dirty scumbag who likes to blow things up just for the hell of it, I have to say this is actually a pretty reasonable idea to revive the mining profession ( and I don't think anyone can argue that it really does need to be addressed at this point).
The economy will probably suffer more than you are estimating, though, considering that, if CSM are correct, about 70% of minerals coming from drones: losing both that and the bunk-grade mod sources of minerals would be a major hit to supply and it would take considerable time for the players to adjust. Of course it would adjust eventually as these things tend to.
Not so sure about the BPC's spawning. Sounds like a load of extra junk being added to the game. Personally I would trash them all. An alternative would be to increase regular rat bounties, make loot drops less frequent and restrict them to meta 1-3 items, thus forcing meta 0 items to be produced through manufacturing.
An increase in bounties over-all will have dire consequences for inflation which is already careering out of control. We need more ISK sinks, so why can't mining barges consume fuel in order to operate? Until an alternative ISK sink is developed, this fuel could be supplied by NPC's. This would not affect a miner's profits since they are the only source of minerals in the first place - they just add the cost to selling price.
Nice idea with defining the asteroids. Not fussy on the spin idea. Texture, yes.
|
|
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
367
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:13:00 -
[151] - Quote
IsTheOpOver wrote:Mors Sanctitatis wrote: I guess there's always one in the crowd... go troll elsewhere.
What? One who's mined more than twice in 7 years? Yeah I guess I'll have to be the voice of reason. I like also how when someone disagrees with you with your epic plan to "save mining" then they are a troll. That's your answer when you can't just blow someone up that calls you out for talking out your ass. Use some of your mad pvp skills to blow up some miners... like a boss!
Hardly the "voice of reason".
I like how you try and discount the validity of what I have to say with the reasoning that if I haven't mined very much then I can't possibly offer anything positive to contribute to the situation. The majority of the posts in the thread say otherwise.
Furthermore, you don't offer any concrete reasons as to why my ideas are bad, offer other ideas in their stead or try and suggest modifications of my ideas that would help improve the situation.
Hence, you're a troll.
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
|
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
90
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:23:00 -
[152] - Quote
Here are some good thoughts from one mining thread:
- make belts so that you must scan them... i dont think botts can do scanning very well... (maybe add some more statics on scans too so that you must have brain to see its only static) - static belts have only very small roids for new players... (strips dont have use if it) - when you left scanned belt its after short amount of time gone... you must scan again... - so that bot users cant scan all belts in the morning and have bot use bookmarks of belts all day long - Boost rats - botts have more problems with defending themself then real people, and it would be more involving.
If you combine OP thoughts with this you get some very very good mechanics. |
Amaroq Dricaldari
62
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 21:58:00 -
[153] - Quote
I kind of like the idea of scanning for belts, but you should still keep statis belts, just make them not have as many asteroids, while the ones you have to scan contain rarer ores and denser asteroids, and they would be less likely to be visited by rats, making them safer.
I also like the 'Intuition' idea, OP. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Drop-Me-Own-Stocks Darius
Total Annihilation. Pandorum Invictus
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 22:14:00 -
[154] - Quote
I was thinking...
People don't like CAPTCHAs, but what if you didn't have to type it in? What if it only displayed it as a CAPTCHA in the overview? Not a the type of Ore, but the Density of the Ore being displayed as a CAPTCHA in the overview.
You may have some disagreements, but it would be a simple way to discourage botting. They wouldn't recognize it as easily, so it would be harder for them to tell something like Scordite apart from Massive Scordite. Who would like to buy a melon?Madame, would you like to buy a--...oh. I see you've already got some.Who would like to buy a melon? |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
1784
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 22:24:00 -
[155] - Quote
Drop-Me-Own-Stocks Darius wrote:I was thinking...
People don't like CAPTCHAs, but what if you didn't have to type it in? What if it only displayed it as a CAPTCHA in the overview? Not a the type of Ore, but the Density of the Ore being displayed as a CAPTCHA in the overview.
You may have some disagreements, but it would be a simple way to discourage botting. They wouldn't recognize it as easily, so it would be harder for them to tell something like Scordite apart from Massive Scordite.
Making botting harder is all fine and good, but whatever happens that needs to be a secondary consideration/side benefit of improving mining. Fun and gameplay for the players needs to be the only consideration while designing the new system. If you can then incorporate anti-botting aspects to it without diminishing the fun and gameplay, then fine, but fun and gameplay are and should always remain the primary focus of any changes. |
Kiroma Halandri
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 22:24:00 -
[156] - Quote
Amaroq Dricaldari wrote:I kind of like the idea of scanning for belts, but you should still keep statis belts, just make them not have as many asteroids, while the ones you have to scan contain rarer ores and denser asteroids, and they would be less likely to be visited by rats, making them safer.
I also like the 'Intuition' idea, OP. I know! Mixed Asteroids!
Each asteroid would be randomly generated. The security status of the location, wether or not it is a static belt, wether or not it is in deadspace, etc, would all be factors in determining which ores would be in the asteroid. The apperance of the asteroid will be dependent on whichever ore is most abundant within said asteroid.
Examples:
Typical High-Sec Static Belt Asteroid (percentage and ores will vary):- 70-90% Veldspar
- 10-30% Scordite
Typical High-Sec Hidden Asteroid (scanned belts):- Veldspar
- Scordite
- Pyroxeres
Typical Deadspace Asteroid:- Scordite
- Pyroxeres
- Plagioclause
Typical Mid-Sec Asteroid:- Pyroxeres
- Plagioclause
- Kernite
The list goes on. *snip* |
IsTheOpOver
16
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 23:54:00 -
[157] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote: I like how you try and discount the validity of what I have to say with the reasoning that if I haven't mined very much then I can't possibly offer anything positive to contribute to the situation. The majority of the posts in the thread say otherwise.
If I post contrary to the majority of posters on the eve forums, I'm pretty ok with that.
Most people don't have the patience for mining. If they made every change you asked for I'd guess you would mine for a week or so, then go on to something else. Those who like it the way it is may not after the changes and unsub more than a couple accounts (miners are known to multibox).
I should go write a post on how to fix pvp. Probably won't matter that I haven't killed another player ever, but why should that stop me. I'm sure I'll think my ideas are grand and worthy!
A couple of your ideas I do favor but only the ones that don't impact the current mining mechanics.
Random rare loot that pops into your hold during mining... sure. Since everyone is getting this change while mining then it should affect everyone somewhat equally. The only change it really will make is multiple stacks of stuff in your cargo hold and perhaps make mining minerals more profitable.
Getting rid of minerals generated by reprocessed rat loot-droppings. Big change that I doubt CCP would want to tackle but who knows. Obviously this would make mining rocks more lucrative.
I tend to not want to see mining yield increased a lot as logic would dictate that the mined product would be in larger supply and it's value depreciated. However, apparently most minerals in the game are not mined but are gained by reprocessing rat-droppings so a higher mining yield should still help miners in general.
The other stuff about interacting with a rock in space while it spins or whatever.. inferior to the current system. Not everyone has to be smashing keys like a monkey on crack every second of the day. If I want that I can fire up Rift. |
Elessa Enaka
State War Academy Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 00:21:00 -
[158] - Quote
Kiroma Halandri wrote:Amaroq Dricaldari wrote:I kind of like the idea of scanning for belts, but you should still keep statis belts, just make them not have as many asteroids, while the ones you have to scan contain rarer ores and denser asteroids, and they would be less likely to be visited by rats, making them safer.
I also like the 'Intuition' idea, OP. I know! Mixed Asteroids! Each asteroid would be randomly generated. The security status of the location, wether or not it is a static belt, wether or not it is in deadspace, etc, would all be factors in determining which ores would be in the asteroid. The apperance of the asteroid will be dependent on whichever ore is most abundant within said asteroid. Examples: Typical High-Sec Static Belt Asteroid (percentage and ores will vary):- 70-90% Veldspar
- 10-30% Scordite
Typical High-Sec Hidden Asteroid (scanned belts):- Veldspar
- Scordite
- Pyroxeres
Typical Deadspace Asteroid:- Scordite
- Pyroxeres
- Plagioclause
Typical Mid-Sec Asteroid:- Pyroxeres
- Plagioclause
- Kernite
The list goes on.
So you saying that the asteroids would be made up of multiple ore types?
So you would target a generic asteroid and then after running a single cycle of your mining lasers realize that it was XX% Veld, XX% Scordite and then have each asteroid in the belt be some random variation on the mix of available ore types for the system? Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been Eve is a great game if you can get past all of the asshats.... |
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
91
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 15:03:00 -
[159] - Quote
Amaroq Dricaldari wrote:I kind of like the idea of scanning for belts, but you should still keep statis belts, just make them not have as many asteroids, while the ones you have to scan contain rarer ores and denser asteroids, and they would be less likely to be visited by rats, making them safer.
I also like the 'Intuition' idea, OP.
I wrote in my post that static belts would be there... but would have smaller roids that are not good for strip mining and are all the ppl with smaller ships need.
|
Mokokan
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 17:03:00 -
[160] - Quote
8 pages of ways to make mining more tedious, complicated, and less "fun".
Fabulous.
As with anything else in EVE, it's fun when you do it with other people. The more the merrier.
|
|
Jhan Niber
EdgeGamers
4
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 18:11:00 -
[161] - Quote
I support this idea of overhauling mining. The concepts presented by the OP are the kind of things that are needed to retool mining for 2012 and beyond and help curb botting. The only thing that I would be concerned about is if this would overall affect the quantity of total resources in the galaxy available for construction. Hopefully it would be ensured that the current production capacity wouldn't be affected by tweaking the specific values for the asteroids themselves. |
Erisia Malaclypse
The Discordian Echo
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 20:27:00 -
[162] - Quote
IsTheOpOver wrote: If I post contrary to the majority of posters on the eve forums, I'm pretty ok with that.
Most people don't have the patience for mining. If they made every change you asked for I'd guess you would mine for a week or so, then go on to something else. Those who like it the way it is may not after the changes and unsub more than a couple accounts (miners are known to multibox).
I should go write a post on how to fix pvp. Probably won't matter that I haven't killed another player ever, but why should that stop me. I'm sure I'll think my ideas are grand and worthy!
I heartily approve of this message... |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
640
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 20:35:00 -
[163] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:In the 7+ years I've played this game, I think I might have mined maybe twice. Max. It was not for me. That being said, mining is one of the most important and fundamental aspects of Eve and it has never been improved upon since the start of the game. I'd like to share my thoughts on why it's so important and what could be done to revitalize this lackluster and horribly unrewarding profession.
... some great ideas....
So, let's hear it! Thoughts?
Some great ideas! I'm driving an effort to get some folks elected to the CSM 7 with the specific goal of improving the mining experience. I know enough about miners to know that even though the CSM 6 thinks they are addressing mining concerns by changing the drone regions most miners know the bigger problems are mining needs more "fun per hour", not just "isk per hour" and that bots need to finally be removed (and there are some pretty easy changes that could make that happen.
Miners ( and the OP), I encourage you to follow and participate in my thread in Jita Park and the threads soon to follow where we discuss how to best encourage CCP to improve mining.
Issler Dainze CSM 7 Candidate |
Kuroi Aurgnet
Guilt Brigade Blitzkrieg Federation Of The Dumpster Punchers
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 23:08:00 -
[164] - Quote
I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately, especially after running into an army of bots the other night. One can only imagine the frusteration at eeing an army of 8 etrievers with the same name, marked differently only by a number, all flying through the areas you predominately mine. I actually have a screenshot of it saved somewhere, if only fot the marvel.
The problem is there is no way to stop bots. Realistically speaking, there is someone in the world who would have the intelligence to circumvent any counter-measure you could put in place. I was recently thinking that the eve servers shoud have a program to help them skim out bots, and since it would be a serverside program, it would be harder to circumvent. But in the end, someone can and will go around it.
However, I do believe the "more non static belts" idea is a great one. Gravimetric sites are too few and too far between outside of wormhole space (and ores in wormholes suck because they are all standard variants, you might as well find a secluded nulsec system and mine there.) the problem with THAT though is then everyone would have to train for exploration to mine. Simply using the onboard scanner for belts would be EASILY bot-able. The mixed ores idea is cool, but that would eliminate all of the processing skills for the specific ores, and make mining crystals useless, which would REALLY annoy a lot of hardcore miners.
yeah, this entire post was unnecessary, just pointing out some flaws. Even the wardecing idea is flawed because real botters stay in NPC corps. the only ways to stop bots would effectively ruin the mining profession and/or tick of a huge amount of players. Theoretically speaking, you could have something required in order to warp to a mining belt, such as those stupid anti-spam bot things you see in websites nowadays, where you have to type in some obscured letters. But who would want to do that?
In the end, I think the best idea is the non-static belts, because it would the most effective thing without inconveniencing too many players. Plus, i believe everyone should know how to use probes anyhow. And hey, added bonus, it would increase the market for probing items. maybe sell special probes for something like this. bring in a new market and fight bots. who knows? |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
755
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 23:28:00 -
[165] - Quote
I'm running for the CSM 7 and my major focus will be to get CCP to revamp mining in Eve. I am forming a council to help develop ideas to bring to CCP about how mining could be improved. Would the OP be interested in being part of the council to develop our ideas to bring to CCP?
The CSM 7 thread
Just post in the thread if you would be interested in joining us to create our mining proposal to CCP,
Thanks for taking the time to post so good thoughts about mining!
Issler |
Hecatonis
Ascension Manufacturing
52
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 01:25:00 -
[166] - Quote
i dont know if this has been said yet, i was just skimming over the post after the first 5 pages, but a lot of people are saying that bots will know because they read the client data instead of visual.
the easy thing to do, i am no programer so i dont know how easy this is, is to not tell you what level of ore you are getting, just send the client you have "X amount of veld" let the server handle the info about how good it is. its already doing all the work anyways.
the hard part would be masking the client side info about the good roids. you client will need to know what to display and therefore will need to know what ID is a good roid, but you need to hide that information from everything other then the client.
love the idea, and would love to see it in game. |
Paragon Renegade
Offensive Logistics Inc
225
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 01:43:00 -
[167] - Quote
I LOVE EVERYTHING HERE The pie is a tautology |
Lord Sheer
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 02:03:00 -
[168] - Quote
I completly agree with this! Mining as a profession or way of life in EVE is rubbish, and is far less profitable than ratting or running plex's. Given how vulnerable mining ships are to pirates, there should be a trade of in the amount of ism miners can make compared with ratters. I remember when Zydrine was 3000 isk a pop, and Mega was 4000. Back then it was worth the risk to fly a hulk in 0.0 for the rewards but those days are long gone. I would live to see some serious attention paid to changing minin and making it both more rewarding and more fun.
Here's my idea - change the distribution of mnerals which you get from ore. Low end ores should refine for much less minerals. High end ores, rather than only giving rare minerals like mega and zyd should also give large amounts of the basic minerals. This way botters can still bot in empire (coz let's face it, CCP has long given up on stopping botting) but real players in 0.0 can enjoy much more substantial rewards for their efforts. That said, any changes at all which mining either more fun or more profitable for real players gets my vote! |
Sasha Azala
Blood and Decay
15
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 02:08:00 -
[169] - Quote
Lord Sheer wrote:I completly agree with this! Mining as a profession or way of life in EVE is rubbish, and is far less profitable than ratting or running plex's. Given how vulnerable mining ships are to pirates, there should be a trade of in the amount of ism miners can make compared with ratters. I remember when Zydrine was 3000 isk a pop, and Mega was 4000. Back then it was worth the risk to fly a hulk in 0.0 for the rewards but those days are long gone. I would live to see some serious attention paid to changing minin and making it both more rewarding and more fun.
Here's my idea - change the distribution of mnerals which you get from ore. Low end ores should refine for much less minerals. High end ores, rather than only giving rare minerals like mega and zyd should also give large amounts of the basic minerals. This way botters can still bot in empire (coz let's face it, CCP has long given up on stopping botting) but real players in 0.0 can enjoy much more substantial rewards for their efforts. That said, any changes at all which mining either more fun or more profitable for real players gets my vote!
So you want to make high-sec mining even more boring (less profitable) and give more profit to the 0.0 mining bots? |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
239
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 11:31:00 -
[170] - Quote
As I already stated elsewhere, the problem with "slag ore" is that it can be hacked through by brute force.
Bots can simply sweep with everything if needed. Send in 9 Hulks, mine all asteroids and get 100% of the ore wherever it is hidden. Then onto next belt.
A solution would be that "bad" asteroids broke your ship. Let's say that stubbornly mining slag asteroids damages your strip miner. Looks like a good fix... but then the bots would learn to check the health bar of strip miners. Actually, bots would learn to test the asteroids by firing the miner for 5 seconds and see wether it took a health hit.
As things are, with mechanics based upon "go there, do that", as long as a bot can find the ore, will mine it one way or another, by being smart or by brute force.
So far the only mechanic that it's beyond bots it's exploration. And probably a "exploration bot" would be so difficult to code that mining boters would move into mission botting. But then, how about a noob? Should the noobs master the hardest mechanic ingame, just to carry out the less appealing task ingame?
If the bot can't find the ore, won't mine it. Now it's all about making sure that a noob who just logged in can find that ore too... maybe with a new mechanic altogether.
Think outside of the box, shall we? EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-á |
|
Anshio Tamark
Avitus Lugus
107
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 14:44:00 -
[171] - Quote
Before I read this, I actually thought "Oh great, another moron who wants to make stupid changes to mining. It already works better than what they can suggest." And now, you've managed to (in one well-written post, no less) turn my opinions completely in the other direction.
And it would also make sense, if CCP wants EVE to be a space-simulator, rather than just a dull MMO. Things that have a higher density will usually spin a bit faster due to the thing called "momentum", and thus, the valuable roids will be spinning faster than the worthless ones.
Another note is this: In real life, all the resources in the world are not spread equally over a given area. So why should the ore in asteroid belts in a simulator-game? Easy, they shouldn't. The ores should be placed in clusters where some of the ore is more dense than other places. There should still be a bit of ore in the low-density rocks, but only trace amounts would be needed to make sure the roids would be there.
The only thing I don't really like about your suggestion would be the "ultra-high-density Tritanium". Maybe it's just me, but 100mil Tritanium in 10m3 may be a bit excessive (unless it's only found in 0.0 or W-Space, thus adding incentive to go mine there). But having several variants of it with varying densities and amounts of Tritanium (the lowest high-density type) being the equivalent of a Metal Scrap or two) could work, with their densities increasing as security level decreases... And just as a suggestion: Maybe adding similar types for the other minerals could work? Finding a chunk of high-density Megacyte would only be possible in null-sec, but it would still be a boost of income, even if it's only 10 Megacyte in 0.01m3 (that's still a compression-rate of 10:1).
All in all, I'm up for this idea. I don't really see the point in bot-mining either. It's like sitting in the station all day, only griefing other industrialists at the same time by ruining the market for high-sec minerals. Whenever I see a bot-miner, I honestly pray that someone will come along and blow up their ship and pod. They don't notice what happens to them anyway. |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
383
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 05:30:00 -
[172] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:I'm running for the CSM 7 and my major focus will be to get CCP to revamp mining in Eve. I am forming a council to help develop ideas to bring to CCP about how mining could be improved. Would the OP be interested in being part of the council to develop our ideas to bring to CCP? The CSM 7 threadJust post in the thread if you would be interested in joining us to create our mining proposal to CCP, Thanks for taking the time to post so good thoughts about mining! Issler
From a CSM standpoint, I'm not Pro-Miner or Pro-PVPer etc., simply Pro-"Excellent gameplay".
Unfortunately, the majority of your platform beyond the mining issues is planted firmly in the "carebear" agenda which I am vehemently opposed to. So, while it would be beneficial to improve mining, the opportunity cost of having the CSM poisoned with carebear influence is too much of a risk to support your bid for CSM just to get mining fixed.
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
|
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
383
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 05:32:00 -
[173] - Quote
Anshio Tamark wrote:Before I read this, I actually thought "Oh great, another moron who wants to make stupid changes to mining. It already works better than what they can suggest." And now, you've managed to (in one well-written post, no less) turn my opinions completely in the other direction.
And it would also make sense, if CCP wants EVE to be a space-simulator, rather than just a dull MMO. Things that have a higher density will usually spin a bit faster due to the thing called "momentum", and thus, the valuable roids will be spinning faster than the worthless ones.
Another note is this: In real life, all the resources in the world are not spread equally over a given area. So why should the ore in asteroid belts in a simulator-game? Easy, they shouldn't. The ores should be placed in clusters where some of the ore is more dense than other places. There should still be a bit of ore in the low-density rocks, but only trace amounts would be needed to make sure the roids would be there.
The only thing I don't really like about your suggestion would be the "ultra-high-density Tritanium". Maybe it's just me, but 100mil Tritanium in 10m3 may be a bit excessive (unless it's only found in 0.0 or W-Space, thus adding incentive to go mine there). But having several variants of it with varying densities and amounts of Tritanium (the lowest high-density type) being the equivalent of a Metal Scrap or two) could work, with their densities increasing as security level decreases... And just as a suggestion: Maybe adding similar types for the other minerals could work? Finding a chunk of high-density Megacyte would only be possible in null-sec, but it would still be a boost of income, even if it's only 10 Megacyte in 0.01m3 (that's still a compression-rate of 10:1).
All in all, I'm up for this idea. I don't really see the point in bot-mining either. It's like sitting in the station all day, only griefing other industrialists at the same time by ruining the market for high-sec minerals. Whenever I see a bot-miner, I honestly pray that someone will come along and blow up their ship and pod. They don't notice what happens to them anyway.
Re: high density Trit- I'm just throwing out numbers. All numbers can be massaged to dial in the perfect balance. Focus less on the hard numbers and more on the general mechanics.
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
|
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
21
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 06:58:00 -
[174] - Quote
I like the idea about making mining more random. As long as the space the stuff takes up is the same, I'd say it's a damned good idea. Bots have no qualms with mining boring or interesting. All they care about is the net gain over time. So making random drops in mining will not serve to assist bots in any way, but it will draw more players to the profession. |
Loda Dira
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 10:49:00 -
[175] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: A solution would be that "bad" asteroids broke your ship. Let's say that stubbornly mining slag asteroids damages your strip miner. Looks like a good fix... but then the bots would learn to check the health bar of strip miners. Actually, bots would learn to test the asteroids by firing the miner for 5 seconds and see wether it took a health hit.
Another idead - no clue wether technical possible or not:
Move mining/asteroids into transversable celestial objects which have specific and dynamical changing environmental rules in them
- which forster active mining by increasing reward when paying attention
- require some form of scanning to maneuver through and find higher reward
- have a probability to damage/destroy ships unless prepared to deal with dangers
Perhaps some sort of "dust cloud" with zones of high activity/vvelocity and zones of tranquility.
Through scanning those zones can be found and warped to.
Inside zones of tranquility a ship is safe. Inside zones of activity a ship is going to be damaged and might end up destroyed and if the player doesn't warp the pod out fast enough needs a new clone.
Zones of tranquility can be stabilized either by a bubble module orcas/rorquals can equip or by anchorable devices that need fuel. |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated
208
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 11:11:00 -
[176] - Quote
My suggestion would focus on the individual asteroid. Each asteroid would have an ore 'vein' running around it - a sweet spot (not unlike that shown in PI) which the mining player has to guide the path of the mining beam along.
It might be possible to include in this concept higher rotational speed asteroids (naturally harder to keep the mining beam path 'on track') with more valuable seems of ore vs slower 'roids, wider ore seems and so forth.
Colourising the asteroids ore seam would give a clear indication for the human player where to guide the path of their mining lasers (managing several such paths might even become a skill in itself) whilst leaving the hapless bot unable to follow the optimum path.
To prevent bots from simply aiming at one specific point on the roid and waiting for its naturally spin to hit the target point as the roid orbits I would include the idea of 'flow rate': in simple terms the miner needs to maintain the mining lasers path along the ore seem for a given period of time to achieve any result.
C.
|
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
103
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 13:50:00 -
[177] - Quote
EVE tends to be about trade-offs. Fitting for tasks, etc. If you fit poorly, you find you have problems doing things.
Fit for heavy damage, you give up stuff - fit for heavy tan, you give up stuff, etc.
As you gain SP, you can fit more and better equipment, it becomes easier to fit the ship more powerfully but the trade-offs never really go away.
Miners avoid trade-offs. They don't fit tank, fitting only for cargo and enhanced mining abilities and this lack of fitting decently tends to make them victims.
No - I'm not putting it all on the miners but I do put a hell of a lot of it on them. Mining ships, in war areas - which is pretty much *ALL* of EVE - should fit tank, giving up some of the POTENTIAL capacity/ability to mine for the extra protection -- or bring friends so you HAVE protection there.
This game provides virtually no reason for doing this and slim abilities to fit protection on the lesser mining-specific function ships (barges & exhumers).
A long time back, about 2 or so years ago, I suggested a different approach to what you have. As a miner mines more, it causes more and more rats to spawn in the belt. More miners - more rats. The rats go for the mining ships.
As such, the ships will be beat on harder and harder as they pull more and more ore.
Now if rats spawn due to mining - tougher rats, etc... Then what you have is those who want to kill those rats, also want miners around - enough of them to keep a steady supply of rats to hunt.
As such, you add challenge to the task of mining WITHOUT changing it. Someone who wishes to AFK mine a bit, can still do so but they would have to scale-back what they COULD mine due to the potential of too many rats spawning and blowing up their ship.
"over mining" would slow and combat ships would pretty much be needed with a large group of mining ships around because "all out", a batch of hulks would cause too many rats to show -- enough to kill an orca.
The above wouldn't give you your "bonus ores!" but it would make mining a risk profession that would require trade-offs to accomplish. Griefers... Hell, 4 guys in hulks pull in next to you and start mining furiously - then warp off!!! :-p
Seriously though - it would change how folks mine - without ... changing how they actually mine.
The only changes I'd recommend would be to enabling the ships to fit some better tank. Not much but at least enable things like a retriever to get some decent tank while outperforming a cruiser for mining. |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
384
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 19:59:00 -
[178] - Quote
Mocam wrote:EVE tends to be about trade-offs. Fitting for tasks, etc. If you fit poorly, you find you have problems doing things.
Fit for heavy damage, you give up stuff - fit for heavy tan, you give up stuff, etc.
As you gain SP, you can fit more and better equipment, it becomes easier to fit the ship more powerfully but the trade-offs never really go away.
Miners avoid trade-offs. They don't fit tank, fitting only for cargo and enhanced mining abilities and this lack of fitting decently tends to make them victims.
No - I'm not putting it all on the miners but I do put a hell of a lot of it on them. Mining ships, in war areas - which is pretty much *ALL* of EVE - should fit tank, giving up some of the POTENTIAL capacity/ability to mine for the extra protection -- or bring friends so you HAVE protection there.
This game provides virtually no reason for doing this and slim abilities to fit protection on the lesser mining-specific function ships (barges & exhumers).
A long time back, about 2 or so years ago, I suggested a different approach to what you have. As a miner mines more, it causes more and more rats to spawn in the belt. More miners - more rats. The rats go for the mining ships.
As such, the ships will be beat on harder and harder as they pull more and more ore.
Now if rats spawn due to mining - tougher rats, etc... Then what you have is those who want to kill those rats, also want miners around - enough of them to keep a steady supply of rats to hunt.
As such, you add challenge to the task of mining WITHOUT changing it. Someone who wishes to AFK mine a bit, can still do so but they would have to scale-back what they COULD mine due to the potential of too many rats spawning and blowing up their ship.
"over mining" would slow and combat ships would pretty much be needed with a large group of mining ships around because "all out", a batch of hulks would cause too many rats to show -- enough to kill an orca.
The above wouldn't give you your "bonus ores!" but it would make mining a risk profession that would require trade-offs to accomplish. Griefers... Hell, 4 guys in hulks pull in next to you and start mining furiously - then warp off!!! :-p
Seriously though - it would change how folks mine - without ... changing how they actually mine.
The only changes I'd recommend would be to enabling the ships to fit some better tank. Not much but at least enable things like a retriever to get some decent tank while outperforming a cruiser for mining.
Great input- I like it! I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
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Amaroq Dricaldari
Malicious Mission Murderers
74
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 20:32:00 -
[179] - Quote
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:The mixed ores idea is cool, but that would eliminate all of the processing skills for the specific ores, and make mining crystals useless, which would REALLY annoy a lot of hardcore miners. The Mixed Asteroids wouldn't give you a 'Mixed' Ore, but instead give you multiple different types of ore. Depending on your Mining Crystal, how much you get of a certain type of ore should change. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
252
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 14:39:00 -
[180] - Quote
OK, just figured a way to use the "good ore/bad ore" as a way to stop bots... let's say that hitting the wrong asteroid means that the specific module can't be used for a set amount of time (like, 15 minutes). That would make time-costly to hit wrong asteroids, whereas noobs still could learn soon to "shoot the shiny rocks".
Anyway I wonder wether bots could just hack the client memory to read whatever made "good asteroids" different from the "bad ones" (FAI, object X calling a different texture would mean that object X is the one to mine)... EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-á |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
686
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 15:34:00 -
[181] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Anyway I wonder wether bots could just hack the client memory to read whatever made "good asteroids" different from the "bad ones" (FAI, object X calling a different texture would mean that object X is the one to mine)...
Short answer - yes.
Making resource gathering more tedious/difficult just means that it's even more likely to be botted.
|
Miss Whippy
Bloody Limeys
68
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 16:33:00 -
[182] - Quote
I like this idea, I think it should go further with the random rares finds though. Maybe uncover some old artifacts and the like too?
Anyway, I also think a way needs to be found to give miners way of defending themselves in low-sec. It's soo easily vunerable to ninja kill miners, and not all the forces of EvE can stop such an attack in low-sec. I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how you could do this, but the pew pew dynamic of Low-sec is so dull and stale now. We need something to spruce it up. Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
Rhydic Ujbikist
Rock Rippers
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 18:01:00 -
[183] - Quote
half of this idea was suggested earlier in this thread, but i want to add onto it
asteroids could vary in size and the amount of layers; a scanner could be introduced to show the depth and amount of layers of an asteroid
outer layers are, essentially, the worthless loose garbage on the top that hardly has any ore, and have no chance of having any high-density ores; could possibly have some chance to have metal scraps on them in high-combat belts? another module could be added that is basically a weak, wider tractor beam to suction up all the loose rock off the outer layer and collect the metal scraps
the middle layers have more valuable ore and the ore could be sporadically set throughout the layer, and have a very low chance of getting lower-end valuable high-density alloys
the inner layers would have higher concentrations of higher-end versions of the ore, and have a low chance to have a super-dense alloy
the way this could work is to get rid of asteroid rotation or create a function to orbit an asteroid at the exact speed it's rotating and allow the miners to choose the exact spot on the asteroid where mining lasers are activated
that way, you could actually tunnel straight into an asteroid to extract the minerals from the core and middle layers of the asteroid, which is supposedly what current lasers are doing
textures would obviously have to be redone as the ever-shifting shape of asteroids would make the current function of textures obsolete. the color of the asteroid could optionally change with depth, which would make it more visually interesting and help with immediate identification of how mined an asteroid is; every day at downtime existing layers could be improved in their mineral density and/or new layers could be added
this, implemented with the other things, would make it incredibly hard for bots to function at all, let alone effectively. the size, shape, density, and layer count of asteroids would be very diverse |
Blade N'Mare
Hard Rock University
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 21:33:00 -
[184] - Quote
Change the refining system
Hisec ores only refine to the first 4 or 5 minerals Lowsec ores only refine to the next 4 Nullsec ores refine to the last 4 Mission loot / salvage / droids and anything built etc only return salvage that cannot be refined to base minerals
Change manufacturing
Meta 0 modules/ships/whatever can be made wholly from hisec minerals Meta 1 modules from mainly hisec minerals, with some salvage Meta 2 modules from some hisec and more salvage Meta 3 modules from some hisec, some salvage and some lowsec Meta 4 as above, but more of the lowsec minerals Meta 5+ needs a bit of everything, but the higher the Meta, the higher the proportion of nullsec minerals
If your toon wants to chill out in hisec with little stress, or you dont have the skills or support to survive lowsec or nullsec, no problem. Stay in hisec, but dont expect to make billions of Isk. If you want the big isk, or the nice shiny toys, be prepared to enter lowsec and nullsec, or pay a premium to those that will. This also keeps mission running as an important resourse gathering tool. More people will enter low and null chasing the isk, so PVPers will have more targets to pew pew.
As far as bots go, if anyone is doing repetitive task for more than 3 or so hours, the server can start a convo with them and ask a simple random question. "What ship are you running? What is your name? How many hi slots do you have?" It doesnt matter what it is, as long as it is based on the toon and ship they are in. Put a time limit of one hour to answer the question. This allows for afk miners. If the question is answered incorrectly, or isnt answered at all, send another one straight away. Any toon failing 3 in a month, suspend the account until they can demonstrate to CCP they are not bots. "Light a candle for the Sinners.-á Set the World on Fire." |
Ohanka
The Lone Patrol Tactical Narcotics Team
13
|
Posted - 2012.02.14 22:22:00 -
[185] - Quote
Trainwreck McGee wrote:Make mining only at grav sites
make grav sites a gradient of okay to awesome in terms of oar composition and amount
This will increase exploration and make mining more satisfying
Then make mining more like gambling by making a small chance of getting big time minerals.
THIS is how you fix mining
o and botting will be tougher.
stupid, alot of people don't know how, or can't be arsed to learn how to scan. |
Miss Whippy
Bloody Limeys
88
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 14:39:00 -
[186] - Quote
I've been thinking about this idea recently, and I'm not sure it's such a great solution after all.
I like the idea itself, but will it encourage miners to make use of lowsec and nullsec? Pretty much no, as it won't change the fact that miners are hideously vulnerable in these systems.
Any good mining idea needs to make lowsec and nullsec mining a realistic option. Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
Cipher Jones
344
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 15:01:00 -
[187] - Quote
Mining can only be saved by thrashers and catalysts.
04:25:37 Notify Cipher Jones, criminals are not welcome here. Leave now or be destroyed. |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
372
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 15:14:00 -
[188] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:I've been thinking about this idea recently, and I'm not sure it's such a great solution after all.
I like the idea itself, but will it encourage miners to make use of lowsec and nullsec? Pretty much no, as it won't change the fact that miners are hideously vulnerable in these systems.
Any good mining idea needs to make lowsec and nullsec mining a realistic option.
Sure it would involve a few new ships though. A new mining ship that is able to generate a bubble around the ship kinda like a warp disruption bubble. This will protect it from groups of 5 people. Groups of people higher than 5 will be able to burn down the bubble. (considering BC class dps) This could be a capital class mining ship or what ever since it is in low/null.
You can make up all kinds of ideas but CCP will never do them. Too many people will ***** etc. |
Nfp007
BloodLust Enterprises Apocalypse Now.
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 16:38:00 -
[189] - Quote
when i saw this thread it remind me one interesting idea regarding the CAPTCHA against bot and add more fun in the game. Once I was playing a MMO Pirate game. You could do a lot of stuff there, but everything was connected with some kind of logic minigame. As example. You needed to load cannons in your ship. So you had to play a minigame of loading balls into the canon. When you reached next level the minigame changed and was harder. Another level and Harder again. You could be more effective on higher levels, but if you failed on high level, you failed bad. Some kind of minigame could be integrated in eve, putting bots out of the way for god :-) It would be like recognizing which asteroid spinning and aiming mining laser somewhere.. or optimizing mining laser circuits... or any other minigame or activity which does make a sense and is enterataining. And it should also include logical aspect so that bots wold fail hard. It would be also good to loose level when failing higher level a lot so you would then stick more on the level you like most as you are able to complete it.
this kind of minigames could be also incorporated in other things in eve, like cloak. After and hour of running cloak a minigame would popup. You have to complete the task in one hour or your cloak would be switched off. It will be switched off also when you would fail the minigame :-))
and this should be incorporated in any game activity which is abused by AFK or BOT. So after while there would be only real people playing the game and not BOTs or AFKers.
Regards
NFP |
TheBlueMonkey
Natural Progression
84
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 17:00:00 -
[190] - Quote
Nfp007 wrote:when i saw this thread it remind me one interesting idea regarding the CAPTCHA against bot and add more fun in the game. Once I was playing a MMO Pirate game. You could do a lot of stuff there, but everything was connected with some kind of logic minigame. As example. You needed to load cannons in your ship. So you had to play a minigame of loading balls into the canon. When you reached next level the minigame changed and was harder. Another level and Harder again. You could be more effective on higher levels, but if you failed on high level, you failed bad. Some kind of minigame could be integrated in eve, putting bots out of the way for god :-) It would be like recognizing which asteroid spinning and aiming mining laser somewhere.. or optimizing mining laser circuits... or any other minigame or activity which does make a sense and is enterataining. And it should also include logical aspect so that bots wold fail hard. It would be also good to loose level when failing higher level a lot so you would then stick more on the level you like most as you are able to complete it.
this kind of minigames could be also incorporated in other things in eve, like cloak. After and hour of running cloak a minigame would popup. You have to complete the task in one hour or your cloak would be switched off. It will be switched off also when you would fail the minigame :-))
and this should be incorporated in any game activity which is abused by AFK or BOT. So after while there would be only real people playing the game and not BOTs or AFKers.
Regards
NFP
I love your optimism but you know all thise things you can do.... someone with sufficient programming knowledge could make a bot do that. |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
1069
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 17:08:00 -
[191] - Quote
Moved from General Discussion. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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Grumpy Owly
306
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 17:46:00 -
[192] - Quote
For reference with this posting: The Mining Buff Fallacy
As to simply asking CCP to provide a monopoly on gaming features and completley remove any semblance of a free and competative market that should remain directly influenced by "player choices", one of the greatest strengths and appeals with EvE gameplay I might stress. I would say you are prescribing a viewed transition for how the game is supposed to be played as a result rather then the current view that players to some extent have some free reign in sculpting and influencing how New Eden operates. This whilst already having a game that deliniates resources opportunities already in favour of the null environment, but isn't being fully utilised. (See linked thread for redistribution of minerals, drone poo and other points associated.) Bounty Hunting for CSM 7
Stop EvE Apathy |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
50
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 18:17:00 -
[193] - Quote
The best part of the OP: replace item drops with BP drops.
If the game depends more heavily on mining, you can bet that more people will mine. |
Tsijha Zirud
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 21:55:00 -
[194] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:The best part of the OP: replace item drops with BP drops.
If the game depends more heavily on mining, you can bet that more people will mine.
Or mineral prices will rise high enough for more people gruntingly agree to mine more, time to stock up on large smart bombs then. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
61
|
Posted - 2012.03.08 22:00:00 -
[195] - Quote
Sounds like a great idea. Bots will always find a way, but anything that makes mining more interesting is great in my book.
now all we need is a better null sec miner and we are all set.
I would love to see a capital mining laser that can be equipped on a Dread.
Same yield as a Strip miners but a Dread can equip 4.
instant solo null sec miner. Massive tank, slightly better yield than a HULK and not available in high sec.
Except for maybe the Veldnaught. |
tomato1
Drama Llamas
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 05:42:00 -
[196] - Quote
How do we do this? The EPIC WIN, I say. What if, while mining some basic ore, you have a chance, however small, of mining some exceedingly valuable alloy or mineral (or whatever)? What if it was valuable simply because it had attributes that were completely unattainable via any other means? Like mineral compression for instance? What if while mining Trit you happen to see some "super-ultra-mega-compressed-hyper-density-quantum-tritanium" (I just made that up by the way) pop up in your cargo hold? What if this stuff converted to 10 MILLION Trit per unit, and you just got 10 units of it in your cargo bay? And guess what the best part is? Each unit only takes up 10m3.
i dont think it should be rarity of rich deposits that make it intresting i think in sence should be a regular thing in sence that as many have said that it needs to be interactive i would like the hulk changed some thing like perhaps astroids are bigger and your ship attaches to the rock you have to scope out the vains of ore and then you have to scan it place the lazor drill and that one cycle would give you enough isk to make you happy and perhaps you have things like crystals breaking if you dont do it quite right im not sure but takes skill..."human skill"..... point being like everyone has said afk mining at least this way you feel like you did something |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
51
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 13:46:00 -
[197] - Quote
Tsijha Zirud wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:The best part of the OP: replace item drops with BP drops.
If the game depends more heavily on mining, you can bet that more people will mine. Or mineral prices will rise high enough for more people gruntingly agree to mine more, time to stock up on large smart bombs then. There are enough people who actually enjoy mining (even in the current implementation) that people who don't want to mine won't have to. |
Tsijha Zirud
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 16:01:00 -
[198] - Quote
Then perhaps mining doesn't need to be saved, instead current being accomplished by a in system space environment that in it's behaviour towards the ship resembles the behaviour of a river, lake, sea or ocean towards a human body with a complex and dynamic rogue drone environmet is a better idea.
It might even be possible to introduce space whales ... as titanic mother drones.
|
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
51
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 16:09:00 -
[199] - Quote
Even people who enjoy mining will be put off from it if the payout is too low. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
152
|
Posted - 2012.03.09 18:28:00 -
[200] - Quote
Rubber asteroids.
If you want to catch bots, just use decoy asteroids. It doesn't matter if they hit it first or last, but the mining lasers will only move one unit of ore per cycle. This should result in it taking until downtime on a single rock.
Part two of the trick, make it a pit trap. Once mining the rock starts, have it spawn copies of itself.
Make the real asteroids visually identifiable, with the fake ones being obvious. Tweak so bots have a very hard time telling the difference. |
|
Bridget Banks
Mirrage Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 17:12:00 -
[201] - Quote
+1 |
Danny Husk
EVE University Ivy League
17
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 18:41:00 -
[202] - Quote
The slag idea has some merit. Fields could become much larger, with a lot more rocks, but have about the same amount of "live" ore in them which you can find only with a survey scanner. Something like 80-90% dead rocks would be plenty to make blind botting a waste of time.
It seems possible to create some sort of captcha-like display of rock "quality" to defeat bots; so have the server send back a package of heavily randomized data that resolves to a small image showing the "density" of ore in a rock, which is easy to visually interpret, but which due to the randomization would be hard or impossible to memory pick or screen scrape. If it used a "heat map" with a random color palette or intersecting lines and shapes, then "density" could be quick and simple for a human eye to read from it, but it would be harder (at least as hard as the usual captcha anyway) to read programatically. |
Danny Husk
EVE University Ivy League
17
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 18:52:00 -
[203] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Make the real asteroids visually identifiable, with the fake ones being obvious. Tweak so bots have a very hard time telling the difference. It might be possible. Memory scraping bots probably might still be able to tell by checking which "set" of textures the client is using to render each rock; and there would be a pretty finite set for art assets. Any simple visual indication like color map would probably be easy to pick out in memory as well, since there would be some set of integers somewhere telling the client "make this rock green" "make this one red."
The same applies to equally good ideas like spin rate, gold flecks, whatever; at some level the client is still going to be mapping numbers sent by the server to art assets stored locally, allowing a bot to memory pick the "ID" or set of IDs that correspond to "make this rock look fake" "make this one look good." Randomizing rock textures at the server level, so that the client gets a pile of graphical data that is hard to programatically break down, is probably not an option. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
310
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 19:01:00 -
[204] - Quote
Danny Husk wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Make the real asteroids visually identifiable, with the fake ones being obvious. Tweak so bots have a very hard time telling the difference. It might be possible. Memory scraping bots probably might still be able to tell by checking which "set" of textures the client is using to render each rock; and there would be a pretty finite set for art assets. Any simple visual indication like color map would probably be easy to pick out in memory as well, since there would be some set of integers somewhere telling the client "make this rock green" "make this one red." Randomizing rock textures at the server level, so that the client gets a pile of graphical data that is hard to programatically break down, is probably not an option.
This is something I stated earlier, whatever the server tells to the client about an asteroid, it can be read from the client memory, and thus is useful to the bots unless it is something a bot couldn't interpretate. EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% non-Highsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-á |
Danny Husk
EVE University Ivy League
17
|
Posted - 2012.03.10 19:07:00 -
[205] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:This is something I stated earlier, whatever the server tells to the client about an asteroid, it can be read from the client memory, and thus is useful to the bots unless it is something a bot couldn't interpretate. True. A small captcha graphic generated on the fly server side, representing rock "quality," and only sent to the client when a survey scan is run, would probably be the only workable option.
If you want to get really fancy about it; make it so that the mapping of which rocks are "live" and which are "dead" in terms of yield is client specific, and persists only until the client warps out of the belt. That would also defeat people who fly ahead of a bot horde fleet-tagging roids for the bots to come and eat, since the set of rocks that will be live for the scout will be different from the set that would be live for any one of the bots. |
specializt
Angry Angels Constructions The Kadeshi
1
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 00:21:00 -
[206] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:a lot of wondeful stuff
i would like to marry you. |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
484
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 00:44:00 -
[207] - Quote
specializt wrote:Mors Sanctitatis wrote:a lot of wondeful stuff i would like to marry you.
LOL. :) Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |
Elisa Fir
Luminoctis
11
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 17:49:00 -
[208] - Quote
+1 and a free bumb; this thread deserves some Dev attention. |
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co. Fatal Ascension
17
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 18:01:00 -
[209] - Quote
Greetings
Not a completely crap idea.
vr East IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES: -á" I drank WHAT?!" |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
161
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 20:57:00 -
[210] - Quote
your intuition idea was at least interesting. but no go.. bots can just use the survey scanner to find the roid with the ore in it.
captcha or what ever it;s called is just a bad idea.. it would make life harder for the miners who don't bot ... right now.. making things tougher on miners would be a stupid idea. With the new inventory system bloat, with the orca hanger nerf disallowing alliance mates from using orca hangers, with the rorq no longer providing it's booster off grid, with the longer hulkageddon, and still no dedicated gas harvesting ship, miners are not feeling much love from anyone right now.
The rare drop thing is nice.. it works on the pavlovian principle of conditioning to make us addicts though.. If it never drops anything good you won't do it.. If it drops every time you hit a rock you won't do it. If it drops occasionally you'll mine all day to get the rare drops. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
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specializt
Angry Angels Constructions The Kadeshi
2
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 21:44:00 -
[211] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:with the rorq no longer providing it's booster off grid Uh ... i dont know on which server you play on but on Tranquiliy the boost still is system-wide. They would cripple mining seriously if they'd do that. Get your "facts" straight |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
488
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 22:15:00 -
[212] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:your intuition idea was at least interesting. but no go.. bots can just use the survey scanner to find the roid with the ore in it.
captcha or what ever it;s called is just a bad idea.. it would make life harder for the miners who don't bot ... right now.. making things tougher on miners would be a stupid idea. With the new inventory system bloat, with the orca hanger nerf disallowing alliance mates from using orca hangers, with the rorq no longer providing it's booster off grid, with the longer hulkageddon, and still no dedicated gas harvesting ship, miners are not feeling much love from anyone right now.
The rare drop thing is nice.. it works on the pavlovian principle of conditioning to make us addicts though.. If it never drops anything good you won't do it.. If it drops every time you hit a rock you won't do it. If it drops occasionally you'll mine all day to get the rare drops.
Small minds... lol. Of course, details like survey scanners would be modified to accommodate the new design. Clearly, bots wouldn't simply be able to use a survey scanner to bypass the game design. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |
Tychus
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.05.28 22:37:00 -
[213] - Quote
I feel that mining is so boring that it causes repetitive stress injury to the brain.
The only way it's palatable to me is if i have a movie or show on my other monitor. Is that worth paying $15 a month for? Early in the thread someone mentioned the task was so boring/repetitive it deserved botting, and i have to respectfully agree. It's essentially less interactive then minesweeper. At least in minesweeper you're active until you finish or mis-click and die. Adding more technical layers just adds to the amount of time and preparation we have to spend before we can click f-buttons on 'roids.
So i propose a different take on mining that i'm sure will make everyone roll their eyes: Bumping rocks.
Eve has a physics model that allows for ship bumping- i've done that plenty. Now lets apply this to 'roids. I could fit strippers, but if i have friends i could take up all my high slots with "Superconducting Magnetic Grapples" that allow me to bump the rocks into a nearby Orca. A few considerations:
1. Mining is no longer just mining. Don't like me pushing your rocks? Get your own Retriever with grapples and push rocks towards your corp's Orca. We're not miners, we're Tritanium rugby players! 2. The Orca would live up up its name, as it could "swallow " larger rocks as the pilot became more skilled. 3. The Orca pilot would just dump the rocks at the station, and since the system knows the size of the 'roids they would be converted into the appropriate volume of ore. 4. Bots could not compete with a "'roid rugby team" due to bots lacking 3-d spacial awareness. 5. A large team could swallow a belt mighty quick, but a large group of miners does that anyway, don't they? 6. Maybe only let mag grapples work in .8 or less systems so true noobs get some ore...
I know its silly. But i bet it would be fun. Maybe we could have leagues.....
T |
MortisLegati
Caldari War Materiel
8
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 13:19:00 -
[214] - Quote
I'm with the OP in saying that industry needs an immediate overhaul. I came to a sudden realization talking with my friends (who play more RIFT than EVE nowadays) that their new gathering mechanic, fishing, was more entertaining and engaging than mining. It was sad. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
290
|
Posted - 2012.05.30 14:15:00 -
[215] - Quote
good idea. +1 I dont do mining but it all sounds like a well thought out concept. |
Edward Khurelem
NIGHTMARE FACTORY INDUSTRIES ROL.Citizens
4
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 04:20:00 -
[216] - Quote
I can honestly say that mining continously for a year (since I started) I have never thought that mining was boring rather relaxing. I like mining because a) I am a full-time uni student with a busy assignment schedule in which I don't have time to pay 100% attention to EVE b) its one of those things that you can switch your brain off for 3 - 4 hours (example) and just chill watching local and watching a movie/completing assignments etc at the same time. c) I like to watch things grow especially my wallet. d) I don't like blowing things up, I always feel sorry for the other person that I destroyed an asset of theirs.
But in saying all of that, Most of your suggestions, like getting a mega-ultimate etc ore that contains better than normal yield would make my wallet grow even bigger so I +1 to that.
Other suggestions like making it more like the PI is interesting to say the least but practically I don't see how it would work the way you said it. The only way this could work is if that there was permanent/achorable mining structures that could be placed on these huge asteroids (un-mininable except through structures) that were bought from a governing body that was yours and yours alone to some extent (they could be taken over through advanced scanning). Its something like what you see in the Planetary interaction aspect of this game of having gathers, silos that you can see as well as supply chains to get the minerals from your gathers to your silos to your pickup/delivery box. These structures would be something that you can see (and naturally would have to put some sort of defences against rats) and through better skills you can create practically create a whole new complex level to mining of best being able to manage your "mIning outpost" as i like to call it.
Not saying that you should totally overthrow the current mining as I actually enjoy it the way it is.
Feel free to tear what i said to bits :) I like criticism
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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
577
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 04:31:00 -
[217] - Quote
Tychus wrote:I feel that mining is so boring that it causes repetitive stress injury to the brain . The only way it's palatable to me is if i have a movie or show on my other monitor. Is that worth paying $15 a month for? Early in the thread someone mentioned the task was so boring/repetitive it deserved botting, and i have to respectfully agree. It's essentially less interactive then minesweeper. At least in minesweeper you're active until you finish or mis-click and die. Adding more technical layers just adds to the amount of time and preparation we have to spend before we can click f-buttons on 'roids. So i propose a different take on mining that i'm sure will make everyone roll their eyes: Bumping rocks. Eve has a physics model that allows for ship bumping- i've done that plenty. Now lets apply this to 'roids. I could fit strippers, but if i have friends i could take up all my high slots with "Superconducting Magnetic Grapples" that allow me to bump the rocks into a nearby Orca. A few considerations: 1. Mining is no longer just mining. Don't like me pushing your rocks? Get your own Retriever with grapples and push rocks towards your corp's Orca. We're not miners, we're Tritanium rugby players! 2. The Orca would live up up its name, as it could "swallow " larger rocks as the pilot became more skilled. 3. The Orca pilot would just dump the rocks at the station, and since the system knows the size of the 'roids they would be converted into the appropriate volume of ore. 4. Bots could not compete with a "'roid rugby team" due to bots lacking 3-d spacial awareness. 5. A large team could swallow a belt mighty quick, but a large group of miners does that anyway, don't they? 6. Maybe only let mag grapples work in .8 or less systems so true noobs get some ore... I know its silly. But i bet it would be fun. Maybe we could have leagues..... T
This is pretty good. "Tritanium rugby players"- I love it lol. Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á Mining, reloaded. -á-áADDICTED. |
Leto Aramaus
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
58
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Posted - 2012.05.31 12:58:00 -
[218] - Quote
mullet nugget wrote: it's like they are more concerned with collecting the botter's monthly fees than pleasing the people who play the game to have fun.
Duh |
Jebediah MacAhab Dallocort
The Scope Gallente Federation
178
|
Posted - 2012.05.31 13:25:00 -
[219] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
Bots shouldn't be able to tell what the roid has in it; Only the server should know, up until the lasers finish cycling and you get your first lumps of slag in your cargo hold. This is basic client/server architecture, here: Only tell the client what it needs to know. How to Improve Quality Assurance at CCP
Professional Programmer, DBA, Game Developer and Systems Analyst |
Austin Knight
Principle Investments Etc. Punkz 'n Monkeys
1
|
Posted - 2012.06.01 00:05:00 -
[220] - Quote
Just chiming in to support this/these ideas...especially those suggestions to turn mining into a more active sport, reduce botting, and create something like a Prospecting Profession. I began EVE life as a miner and am highly skilled at it, but haven't tapped a rock in over a year due to the mindless "harvesting" aspect of it. If it were possible to Prospect for rich ores and/or lucrative but labor intensive ore fields, and then have the option to harvest myself (when I find that especially tasty rock) or sell/contract the locations/BM's to those lucrative "ore fields" that don't interest me personally as a mostly solo player due to the time involved in harvesting the rocks, but which might interest a group operation...I would totally get back into it. I enjoy exploration...but don't do that much anymore either due the the very high frequency of WHs one finds...and although they can ofc be lucrative, I'd prefer to find Mag/Radar sites for the quick PVE/Quick Harvest aspect of them. Prospecting for rich ores/lucrative ore clumps would be interesting to me.
/me supporting this thread
Please consider working some of these suggestions into the game mechanics CCP. |
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Andre II
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
59
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 20:18:00 -
[221] - Quote
I really think it's a good idea, but would it really work? All someone with a bot would have to do if mine the whole belt and go on. |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
361
|
Posted - 2012.06.03 21:12:00 -
[222] - Quote
I was expecting another stupid manifesto/proposal regarding mining, came surprised.
Definitely love the idea. Maybe needs a few tweaks and details, but the concept is solid. +1 "Eve isnGÇÖt some welcoming online utopia: itGÇÖs cut-throat, cruel, atavistic despite the futuristic setting. Give people a sandbox, and theyGÇÖll throw the sand in a rivalGÇÖs eyes before kicking them in the shins and destroying their sandcastle." -Keza MacDonald, IGN. |
Drakarin
Omnitech Corporation Wonder Kids
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 06:30:00 -
[223] - Quote
Kuroi Aurgnet wrote:decent idea, but if only 5% of the asteroids had any ores then only really advanced miners would ever get anything. All those people who have trained for their precious hulks would get all the minerals, and the newer players wouldnt have a chance. great idea otherwise, but maybe that one thing should be changed to like, one third of the asteroids have ores, and there should be a LOT more asteroids. we dont need the amount of ores in the game to drop, it would cause some problems.
Actually no, it would fix them.
I'd rather losing a ship be the painful part of death instead of a negative mark on your KB ratio.
No one cares about losing ships when they have a thousand drakes stored across their account. People hoard, because ships are being created far far too quickly relative to how fast they are being destroyed.
This is an especially big problem for super capitals.
As for the OPs idea, I love it. I hate mining myself, it's boring beyond belief. This wouldn't really change that for me, as 99% of the time I'd still just be sitting there watching a module icon cycle; but at least it would make it a bit more interesting for people who somehow enjoy it now.
Covert Kitty wrote:I love your general idea, however, the problem is that the best bots don't look at the screen at all, they hook python or read memory directly. It would not take long for them to hook in the new information and pick the right rocks directly.
Personally, I think that mining should be replaced with "small holding" you anchor fairly easy to kill structures at the belts, and they mine for you, you just have to do the hauling from time to time. Not unlike moon mining, though at a much smaller scale a tank of say 500dps omni, with about 2-3x the effective of a battleship. This would free up the player to defend it, and open them up as a nicer target for small gangs. Botting for mining becomes obsolete because there really isn't much of anything to automate.
A program complex enough to actively scan direct memory from EvE should be fairly easy to detect on a person's computer, no? CCP should routinely scan for these programs when people are playing their game.
Likely the only way to truly stop bots. |
Drakarin
Omnitech Corporation Wonder Kids
8
|
Posted - 2012.06.04 07:19:00 -
[224] - Quote
Janus Nightmare wrote:Etaoin Shrdxv wrote:I support this thread.
TLDR for lazy devs and csms:
1. Convert rogue drones to pure bounties. 2. Convert mission drops to meta 1d4 bpc's. 3. Establish loot tables with rare drops for miners (for example, a high density refinable that procs about 0.0001 times per mining cycle.) 4. Change the structure of mining to make it fundamentally unbottable. 5. Move a large majority of belts to dynamic grav sites or similar that must be scanned down.
Of these, #1, #2, and #5 can definitely be implemented with existing technology, and by themselves would make EVE a better, more robust game. Gameplay for miners would be much improved.
Keep brainstorming, everyone! I disagree with the underlined part for one reason, and perhaps it's a selfish one. I mine because it's something I can do casually while working on my laptop or another pc. I realize that's not necessarily the way it was intended, but I don't often have the time to completely, actively play and make enough ISK to buy PLEX. By mining while I'm working, I can make enough to buy PLEX for both of my accounts so that when I do get some free time to actually play the game, I can do it. Some of the suggestions, while not bad, would make it more difficult for casual players like me who can't devote every bit of attention to the screen while mining. Now, I know people are going to ride my arse for my comments, and that's fine. Just for the record, I'm not saying that mining needs to be a perfectly safe carebear activity. Not at all, and I've been ganked several times while mining and realize it's likely going to happen again. I'm just pointing out that you don't want to "improve gameplay" for miners too much because it would make it far more difficult for casual players like me to keep playing the game at all. All I'm saying is that there needs to be a balance, because let's face it, some of us like the boring aspect of mining. If I am going to spend more time scanning down grav sights (which I admit I'm not very good at) then I only ask that you make it worthwhile, and have enough ore in there that I can't deplete it with a couple of Hulks inside of an hour like I can some current asteroid belts. I'm not saying I disagree with the concept, just be careful to keep a good balance so it doesn't drive the casual player like me away.
I don't feel like a game feature that allows one to AFK at work and yet still make a billion isk a month is good at all. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
203
|
Posted - 2012.06.05 15:34:00 -
[225] - Quote
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:your intuition idea was at least interesting. but no go.. bots can just use the survey scanner to find the roid with the ore in it.
captcha or what ever it;s called is just a bad idea.. it would make life harder for the miners who don't bot ... right now.. making things tougher on miners would be a stupid idea. With the new inventory system bloat, with the orca hanger nerf disallowing alliance mates from using orca hangers, with the rorq no longer providing it's booster off grid, with the longer hulkageddon, and still no dedicated gas harvesting ship, miners are not feeling much love from anyone right now.
The rare drop thing is nice.. it works on the pavlovian principle of conditioning to make us addicts though.. If it never drops anything good you won't do it.. If it drops every time you hit a rock you won't do it. If it drops occasionally you'll mine all day to get the rare drops. Small minds... lol. Of course, details like survey scanners would be modified to accommodate the new design. Clearly, bots wouldn't simply be able to use a survey scanner to bypass the game design.
how clearly? So survey scanners would have to be crippled? I'm not sure I'm understanding you. if a player can use a modiified scanner wouldn't a bot be able to?
Quote:Small minds... lol. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Kimmi Chan
Illuminatus Reforged The Revenant Order
215
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Posted - 2012.06.29 03:20:00 -
[226] - Quote
Mors,
I've read the OP and will start reading the rest but I wanted to run this by you and get your thoughts in terms of making mining less boring and removing the AFK miner.
Mining Lasers have a max range AND a minimum range - say 5k min and 15k max. As you mine, the asteroid moves closer to your ship. If it comes too close the mining laser shuts down and the asteroid drifts back towards it's starting position. So essentially, mining becomes about "juggling" asteroids.
A narrative:
I land on grid in an asteroid belt. Do a little surveying and pick out 1 or 2 rocks to mine. I target them once I am inside my 15km range and fire up the miners. As I continue to mine the rocks drift towards my ship. Knowing that once they get inside 5km my lasers will shut off and I will lose a cycle I lock up two other rocks and once the first targets are getting close to 5km, I train the lasers on the new targets and mine those while the original rocks drift back to their original position.
Another thought might be heat.
As I mine an asteroid, heat builds up and if not allowed to cool off the asteroid could break apart releasing harmful explosive gases that damage my ship.
I think these types of things could really make mining a more engaging activity and would do much to eliminate the AFK miner who pays or plexes to not play the game. -á"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus |
Deckard BladeRun
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.06.29 06:19:00 -
[227] - Quote
WARNING!!! Noobs prospective providing noob input.
How about having mining be very in depth. Where asteroids have different spots that require different amounts of power used from the laser. As you drill into it you might hit a rough spot and have to increase the mining lasers power then hit a soft spot and have to decrease the power of the lasers. If you do not actively control the lasers they overheat and stop working. Some cool probing style analysis of an asteroid showing the different angles of the rock and maybe have to adjust different settings on your mining lasers.
I am a noob but I did the probing tutorial and it is AMAZINGLY in Depth. You can individually control all these different probes, and each probe can be moved anywhere in the entire freaking solar system in full 3 dimensions, and each individual probe has its own range that can be adjusted, such an incredible variety for something as simple as scanning and probing.
Yet when I have tried the mining it is lock onto asteroid, maybe scan it to see how much ore it contains, move ship into range, hit mining laser, wait for lasers to finish. Maybe transfer ore from a hold to a jetcan, maybe just fill up the hold. That is lame. Maybe get the person responsible for the awesome probing to do some awesome work on mining.
Why can't mining have the amazing intricacy and depth of probing? Analyze the roid, which side would be best to drill from? I need to start out at 85% power because this is a thick tough spot to start drilling but will get me to the meat faster and more efficiently in the long run. Ok I am into the soft density. My meter is going int the blue zone time to drop the power down. 60%....still dropping....reduce power of drill 2 to 35%.....nice...perfect...good job crew.
Maybe people don't WANT mining to be more intricate and in depth. Maybe they like being lazy :( I for one subscribed to this game because I want a challenge. Mining just seems kind of bleh. Even hauling seems more exciting. |
Zaltone
Cur Dogs Incorporated United Sovereigns Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 20:53:00 -
[228] - Quote
What if when you engage the lasers you get a close up of the asteroid and you manually have to move your mouse and cut the ore out. So a shape appears on the asteroid and you have trace it with your mouse if your trace it perfect you get a perfect yield if you don't you get a slightly less yield and if you don't trace it you get half normal yield or none. Make the shapes random and keep the 3 minute cycle and see how much ore you can cut out in that amount of time or till your cargo hold is full. This makes mining way more interactive and better performance would equals more yield.
i at least think this would be more entertaining.
Also maybe as you get to hard types of ore the shapes disappear leave you try and guess the best way to cut it or use like a sensor thing, like we do for pi to see where the best minerals and and have manually cut it out from the asteroid I think the key would be having the player manually cut the ore from the asteroids. I think removing the drone poo was a right step and this would remove the bots i think. Making the belts only easier to find grav sites could make things harder for bots so you have to scan to find a belt before you can start mining. The Dominix is always, the answer the question doesnt matter!!!!!
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Zaltone
Cur Dogs Incorporated United Sovereigns Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 20:55:00 -
[229] - Quote
Deckard BladeRun wrote:WARNING!!! Noobs prospective providing noob input.
How about having mining be very in depth. Where asteroids have different spots that require different amounts of power used from the laser. As you drill into it you might hit a rough spot and have to increase the mining lasers power then hit a soft spot and have to decrease the power of the lasers. If you do not actively control the lasers they overheat and stop working. Some cool probing style analysis of an asteroid showing the different angles of the rock and maybe have to adjust different settings on your mining lasers.
I am a noob but I did the probing tutorial and it is AMAZINGLY in Depth. You can individually control all these different probes, and each probe can be moved anywhere in the entire freaking solar system in full 3 dimensions, and each individual probe has its own range that can be adjusted, such an incredible variety for something as simple as scanning and probing.
Yet when I have tried the mining it is lock onto asteroid, maybe scan it to see how much ore it contains, move ship into range, hit mining laser, wait for lasers to finish. Maybe transfer ore from a hold to a jetcan, maybe just fill up the hold. That is lame. Maybe get the person responsible for the awesome probing to do some awesome work on mining.
Why can't mining have the amazing intricacy and depth of probing? Analyze the roid, which side would be best to drill from? I need to start out at 85% power because this is a thick tough spot to start drilling but will get me to the meat faster and more efficiently in the long run. Ok I am into the soft density. My meter is going int the blue zone time to drop the power down. 60%....still dropping....reduce power of drill 2 to 35%.....nice...perfect...good job crew.
Maybe people don't WANT mining to be more intricate and in depth. Maybe they like being lazy :( I for one subscribed to this game because I want a challenge. Mining just seems kind of bleh. Even hauling seems more exciting.
Basically me and him had similar ideas I didnt read his post completely but I think this would make mining better. The Dominix is always, the answer the question doesnt matter!!!!!
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Nicolas Warrilow
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2012.06.29 21:24:00 -
[230] - Quote
When someone mentioned a Faction-equivalent mining ore, I thought that maybe they could go the route of placing such asteroids in Gravimetric sites and much like doing exploration to find rare mods, specific asteroids with these special rare ores could exist the the Gravimetric sites. |
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