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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.14 20:57:00 -
[31]
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto stuff
So ambulation is a bad idea because a few immature people will do something that annoys you? ---------------
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.09.14 20:57:00 -
[32]
Honestly I don't complain about ambulation. It really is just eye-candy, but as long as it's not taking away from EVE there's no point complaining about it either. It's there for those who use it, and yet easily ignored for those who don't use it. ___________
Desolacer> Who the heck gives YOU the right to ruin it for others buy blowing them up.
Zaqar> CCP |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive Animal.
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Posted - 2007.09.14 20:57:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 14/09/2007 20:59:34
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Corporate offices - already exist
An icon with your corp name and description under some tab in station is hardly what I, nor CCP, have in mind.
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds NPC greeters - no function that isn't covered by a website
In game, in station greeters will market to the casual browser. Your website will only get hits from corp members, war targets, or people you send that way. Also, IGB and OOG links take away from immersion.
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Personal stores - selling what exactly? Clothes? lol
This is the attitude that kills me. Where has is ever been stated that stores can only sell clothes and puppies and sunshine? Why not battleships, implants, hookers, and beer?
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Casinos - Yeah maybe but again already covered by IGB sites
The immersion issue again, as well as the added security that will come with a CCP endorsed gambling venue. Harder to scam.
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Whole new areas of gameplay - where?
By areas, I meant types.
Meh..
Reasonable responses and that's why I'm undecided.
IF:-
Shops can sell all commodities - that would rock tbh, cos you could hook people into being regular buyers for your sets of stuff or customized (rigged) ships
Decor costs real cash - that would rock cos if you're filthy rich like me you can show it off*
CCP eventually introduce bipedal combat - r0xx00r!
So yeah, there is potential but it's still a worrying development for the reason that it could all just go Sims up!
* Edit: By "real cash" I mean ISK of course, not that I'm an Eve mentalist or anything...
Bandures > Tommy, you like a cowboy harry ) |
milinkoee
Bastage Incorporated THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 20:57:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Wild Rho
Fixing bugs is not a problem solved by simply throwing more people at it, in fact it can have the opposite effect of slowing things down or introducing even more bugs.
Correct not "simply", but more resources being made available to bugs makes it much easier to solve them. Also, while it "can" have the opposite effect, it doesn't have to if those resources are properly managed and the scope isn't allowed to creep into new features.
Basically, the issue is that the "resources" should remain focused on the current issues, before they are freed up to start creating new features.
Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!! |
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:00:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Dristra
Whenever ambulation is brought up, there is a torrent of whines, and people almost claiming that they will quit eve if ambulation arrives.
Why is this? Ambulation is developed by a different group than the people in charge of fixing drones, lag, and the ui anyways...
So it is basicaly just more content, free of charge.
It's not more content. It will not add anything to the game. I fail to see the point of it.
So your avatar will have a a whole body and be able to walk on down to the LP store. How does this enhance my game play?
When it is released people will use it for 2 weeks and then never use it again. I can click on this button for the LP Store or I can watch my character walk to the LP Store. Same result except one takes more time. No thanks.
As for your argument about the ambulation not working on drones/ui or whatever: It's bunk. It's a complete bull**** argument. They could be working on other things or they could be fired and the money used to hire people who could add meaningful content to the game. Hell they could just fire them and give all the other CCP employees a raise or a few cases of beer. I feel that would be a better use of the money.
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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:01:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Nicho Void on 14/09/2007 21:02:54
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Meh..
Reasonable responses and that's why I'm undecided.
IF:-
Shops can sell all commodities - that would rock tbh, cos you could hook people into being regular buyers for your sets of stuff or customized (rigged) ships
Decor costs real cash - that would rock cos if you're filthy rich like me you can show it off
CCP eventually introduce bipedal combat - r0xx00r!
So yeah, there is potential but it's still a worrying development for the reason that it could all just go Sims up!
Totally agree. It's all going to hinge on how far CCP decides to take it. I feel like ambulation will blow if they release some half-assed, gimp version. That's one of the main reasons I'm trying to support it so heavily. If they give it everything they've got, I think we'll all be really impressed.
Originally by: Tunak Talking out of ass
Read a few articles on the features of ambulation before you open your ass checks to spew your ignorant babble please. ---------------
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milinkoee
Bastage Incorporated THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:02:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tunak They could be working on other things or they could be fired and the money used to hire people who could add meaningful content to the game.
Like a scalability expert.
Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!! |
Erlik Draknor
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:03:00 -
[38]
Because they need to fix the lag and bugs before working on some worthless add on bull**** wow like content.
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Amaron Ghant
Caldari b00's Crew
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:06:00 -
[39]
Ambulation?
Meh, just something else to keep station huggers occupied whilst you camp thier station.
Not for it....then again I'm not against it. I would sup with the devil and forget to use a long spoon if it led to me spitting on the grave of nationalism.
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Tunak
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:08:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Nicho Void
Read a few articles on the features of ambulation before you open your ass checks to spew your ignorant babble please.
Links please.
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Wild Rho
Amarr Endgame.
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:09:00 -
[41]
Originally by: milinkoee
Originally by: Wild Rho
Fixing bugs is not a problem solved by simply throwing more people at it, in fact it can have the opposite effect of slowing things down or introducing even more bugs.
Correct not "simply", but more resources being made available to bugs makes it much easier to solve them. Also, while it "can" have the opposite effect, it doesn't have to if those resources are properly managed and the scope isn't allowed to creep into new features.
Basically, the issue is that the "resources" should remain focused on the current issues, before they are freed up to start creating new features.
How do you know said resources are not being properly managed? Fixing bugs does not work to any set time scale. As for the rest it's been stated constantly from the start that the people and resources involved in development have little or nothing to do with those involved in bug fixing as they often require completely different tools and skills (you wouldn't want the graphics designer fixing code bugs unless you were bonkers).
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Tunak
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:13:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Wild Rho
As for the rest it's been stated constantly from the start that the people and resources involved in development have little or nothing to do with those involved in bug fixing as they often require completely different tools and skills (you wouldn't want the graphics designer fixing code bugs unless you were bonkers).
That's not a valid argument. If they don't have the tools or skills to work on bugs they can be fired and the money can be used to hire people or buy tools.
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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:14:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Nicho Void
Read a few articles on the features of ambulation before you open your ass checks to spew your ignorant babble please.
Links please.
Here is a great place to start. No reading required.
This one does require reading. ---------------
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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:16:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Dristra
Originally by: Xaen I don't hate it, I just don't care about it even slightly.
I'd rather have one spelling/display error corrected in in game text than have ambulation.
You say you don't care for it even slightly, yet in this and the "will ambulation work with dx10 only" you post, just to tell us you don't care, oooo, the paradox.
Ok, I lied, I do hate it. I wish I could hate it to death. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not. |
milinkoee
Bastage Incorporated THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:18:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Wild Rho How do you know said resources are not being properly managed? Fixing bugs does not work to any set time scale.
Because the number of bugs and lag related issues have been continually increasing over the last year, not decreasing.
However, that said you miss-read what I wrote. I was simply saying that if you added extra resources to the bug/lag fix teams AND properly managed them, that it would be a positive and not necessarily negative factor on resolving issues.
Quote:
As for the rest it's been stated constantly from the start that the people and resources involved in development have little or nothing to do with those involved in bug fixing as they often require completely different tools and skills (you wouldn't want the graphics designer fixing code bugs unless you were bonkers).
And once again if you would actually read what I wrote you would see that I wasn't suggesting that the "people" working on ambulation should be moved over to the bug fix team. Instead, I was suggesting that many customers would prefer that the "resources" (i.e. dollars/isk) was used instead to hire someone that could help resolve the current issues, before using those resources (i.e. dollars/isk) to hire said ambulation graphic designers.
Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!! |
MITSUK0
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:20:00 -
[46]
Because people have a stunning lack of understaning about how software development works. They have the notion that adding more chefs will infact make the broth better. They are computer gamers! They prbably even looked at a PHP for dummies book once! Of course they know more about software development than profesionals who stake there wages on it!
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Drizit
Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:21:00 -
[47]
Game + ambulation = more lag.
Considering that the game lags enough at times as it is. Add more pressure on the servers and we're going to have a major problem.
I would rather see more resources put toward solving the lag/server problems we have been experiencing lately. If it comes to it, I would rather see Rev 3 delayed until what we already have is stabilised to a satisfactory degree.
--
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milinkoee
Bastage Incorporated THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: MITSUK0 Because people have a stunning lack of understaning about how software development works. They have the notion that adding more chefs will infact make the broth better. They are computer gamers! They prbably even looked at a PHP for dummies book once! Of course they know more about software development than profesionals who stake there wages on it!
I'll wager my bloated software professional wage that I know more about it than you.
Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!! |
Ilvan
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:25:00 -
[49]
Can only speak for myself, but...
It's not 'hate', but 'why?'. I for one signed up for EVE because it's a space game. Ambulation has about zero draw for me, and I'd rather the effort be spent elsewhere.
And lol at the internet psychologists. Don't quit your day job, m'kay?
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MITSUK0
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:25:00 -
[50]
Originally by: milinkoee
Originally by: MITSUK0 Because people have a stunning lack of understaning about how software development works. They have the notion that adding more chefs will infact make the broth better. They are computer gamers! They prbably even looked at a PHP for dummies book once! Of course they know more about software development than profesionals who stake there wages on it!
I'll wager my bloated software professional wage that I know more about it than you.
That wasnt actually aimed at you But you must know what it is like to drag more staff onto a project that is allready behind schedule?
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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:27:00 -
[51]
Originally by: milinkoee
Originally by: MITSUK0 Because people have a stunning lack of understaning about how software development works. They have the notion that adding more chefs will infact make the broth better. They are computer gamers! They prbably even looked at a PHP for dummies book once! Of course they know more about software development than profesionals who stake there wages on it!
I'll wager my bloated software professional wage that I know more about it than you.
A better analogy for software engineering is: Nine women can't make a baby in one month. Same goes for any smallish software project. Bigger (vastly more complex) ones can go faster with more people. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not. |
milinkoee
Bastage Incorporated THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:30:00 -
[52]
Originally by: MITSUK0
That wasnt actually aimed at you But you must know what it is like to drag more staff onto a project that is allready behind schedule?
I agree, my only point is that a company as small as CCP has only limited resources (money, people, management oversight and strategic focus) to go around, and that taking on something as non-core as ambulation can't help but destract resources of all types from resolving the very large scale issues they are having with their core product/application. While simply adding more bodies won't necessarily help, adding a few of the right bodies and keeping the organizational focus on those issues might be a better use of the corporate resources until the issues are resolved.
Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!! |
Wild Rho
Amarr Endgame.
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:33:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Wild Rho on 14/09/2007 21:33:38
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Wild Rho
As for the rest it's been stated constantly from the start that the people and resources involved in development have little or nothing to do with those involved in bug fixing as they often require completely different tools and skills (you wouldn't want the graphics designer fixing code bugs unless you were bonkers).
That's not a valid argument. If they don't have the tools or skills to work on bugs they can be fired and the money can be used to hire people or buy tools.
It's a perfectly valid argument as I already mentioned how simply adding more people does not guarantee that bugs will be fixed faster.
As for your knee jerk reaction of simply firing people and hiring others in their place, that's a poor suggesstion for a number of reasons such as...
- Removing people from content development slows down the development of the game long term and even a bug free game will fail if players feel the world has become stagnant). - Hiring new bug fixing staff requires the new staff to be trained by the existing staff so bug fixing will actually slow down for quite some time. - With more bug fixers working on code there is more room for bugs to be introduced as there are more opportunities for mistakes to be made and the number of extra checks slows down the bug fixing cycle further.
Chances are CCPs bug fixing team is around the optimal size for the workload they have and the game is better off putting up with a few bugs in exchange for constantly growing and improving.
And where did you get this "many customers would prefer" stuff from? Take a survey did you?
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milinkoee
Bastage Incorporated THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:33:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Xaen
A better analogy for software engineering is: Nine women can't make a baby in one month. Same goes for any smallish software project. Bigger (vastly more complex) ones can go faster with more people.
Correct, but a smoking hot scalibility expert and a couple of QA babes might end up pregers faster than the dogs that have been oogling the code base for the last year or so.
Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!! |
Tunak
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:39:00 -
[55]
Thanks. Now try and talk like a civilized adult and hopefully we can have a dialog.
Comments:
"you won't be able to run, only walk" - Anything that has a non ambulatory method of doing it will be used in preference since it will take less time.
"First, corporations will be getting meeting rooms. These will be large conference areas where they can sit at tables, look at computer displays, chat about strategy, and generally hang out. The meeting rooms will have a private corporation-only part and a public foyer where potential applicants can come and meet with current corporation members." This is no new content. Everything listed can be done with the current system. Ambulation gives no functionality gain.
"Also, an NPC can be set up with simple corporation information and answers to commonly asked questions in case no one is handy to talk to them. Players will chat with this NPC by navigating scripted dialogue trees that the corporation can create." Once again how is this an advantage over the current system? The only place I see this applicable is if your corp accepts applications from people you don't know and you have no one online currently. "Players will also be able to walk around the interior of their own ships." This is a complete waste. Since I can't have anyone else on my ship what's the point. "With access to a dressing area, you can probably guess what else will be available: clothes! Players will have access to a huge variety of clothing and accessories to wear on their characters and be able to swap between as many different outfits as they care to buy, as often as they like." Custimization of ship exterior should be placed way in front of having fashion shows. "Venues are simply stores within the game where players will be able to socialize, browse, shop, and gamble." This has possibility. "Everything available for sale in the stores will be player crafted items made from the same materials that are currently traded in EVE." If the items in the store are available on the regular market then it's not new content. If the items are not available on the market but only in the venue people will buy from the market because they won't have to walk there. "Non-player characters (like the informational corporation ones) can be placed in these venues with set dialogue trees to cater to customers when the proprietor is offline or away on business." This would be nice if they could take orders. However with shops and these NPCs all of this could be done with the current engine. Ambulation is not required. "When creating any kind of social space, the developers recognize that the players will need something to do. Shopping and talking aren't enough by themselves. That's why they want to implement games of chance for use in the bars and casinos." Gambling will always have an audience. As for bars. I imagine they will be in the trade hubs. Maybe outposts. But once again. There's no new content. It's simple a different background on the screen. "Emotes will play an important role in character interaction. CCP would like to allow characters to do complex things like shake hands, pat each other on the back, and hug, in addition to more common emotes like waving and bowing." All of this has been handled with text chat for literally decades. Once again no new functionality.
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MITSUK0
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:40:00 -
[56]
When you consider the fact that as far as I am aware ambulation is allmost a sidetrack of code that is in development for another non eve project, that money is allready factored in and being spent. Ambulation allows that money to work for eve aswell as the other game in development.
Ambulation will help attract more gamers = more money = more staff if and when they are needed.
Of course I have no idea what sort of cash flow CCP have so maybe it is a moot point
It seems to me at least that we should all be pleased. CCP are throwing the eve online userbase a bone. Unless my drunken mind is playing tricks and ambulation has nothing to do with any other development projects.
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lin ta
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:42:00 -
[57]
ah ... free of charge? i read in one of the interviews that they are still working on how pricing will be involved so don't assume it will be free. we had a discussion if they might bring something in with the planning room where gang bonus would no longer be calculated on the fly but be a set amount if done in the new corp planning area. reduce lag and encourage paying for the new 'content'.
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Tunak
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:45:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Wild Rho
It's a perfectly valid argument . . .
No it's not. Your argument relies on the stipulation that the ambulation people can only be working on ambulation. They could be doing _something_ else.
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Hasak Rain
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:46:00 -
[59]
lol I can't wait for this to go in. All those geniuses who thought it would be a good idea to make a female character and have been defending that choice all of this time are going to be on here complaining that some Caldari dude grabbed his ass in the station lounge.
And ROFL at anyone who made a cross eyed character.
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milinkoee
Bastage Incorporated THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 21:49:00 -
[60]
Edited by: milinkoee on 14/09/2007 21:51:26 Edited by: milinkoee on 14/09/2007 21:50:37
Originally by: MITSUK0 When you consider the fact that as far as I am aware ambulation is allmost a sidetrack of code that is in development for another non eve project, that money is allready factored in and being spent. Ambulation allows that money to work for eve aswell as the other game in development.
Ambulation will help attract more gamers = more money = more staff if and when they are needed.
Of course I have no idea what sort of cash flow CCP have so maybe it is a moot point
It seems to me at least that we should all be pleased. CCP are throwing the eve online userbase a bone. Unless my drunken mind is playing tricks and ambulation has nothing to do with any other development projects.
Yeah, I got no problem with ambulation per se, but it is more than just monetary resources, it is strategic focus and support, which in a company as small as CCP is bound to be limited. At some point they need to get serious about their scalability issues and take a full dev cycle to really concentrate on refactoring and improving what they already have as opposed to constantly jamming in new stuff, be that ambulation or new core app features.
If they are like most dev shops, their folks assigned to work on the lag and bugs are propbably under constant presure to do 2 or more things at once, which can't help but detract from an initiative to so radically fix their underlying scale issues. I fully understand how hard it is to resist the biz dev guys when they keep promising all the extra subs if they only got these new features, but at some point you have to take a breathe and protect the core.
Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!! |
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