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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.09.17 05:28:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Death Kill on 17/09/2007 05:30:43 Saw this very interesting documentary last night about what will happen when oil runs out.
Oil production in the west peaked uh (iirc)in the 70's and has slowly started to decrease. SaudiArabia witch now sits on 2/3 of the world reserves is at its peak according to the oil industry itself. And when most of the oil is gone, it would be too costly to extract the small pockets of oil found here and there.
Now a lot of people say that we can find different energy sources. But even if you combine solar power with wind and bio fuwel you would still only have a tiny fraction of the amount needed to continue our current lifestyle. If we were to go nuclear we would need to build 20000 BIG nuclear reactors and it will deplete the world uranium reserves in 20 years.
We are now at the peak of the oil age, the top of the mountain. But now that we are on the top theres downhill all around us, it may be a near vertical fall of it might be smoother, time will tell. One thing is almost for sure and thats that in 3 generations time only 1/10 of the world 1% richest will be able to fly or drive a car.
Theres also those that say that if humans really had to develop technology that can replace oil, they could do it in a decade like in the 60's when Kennedy said the US where going to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. Well think of it more like this, it would be like saying we should colonize Pluto with 100000 humans by the end of the decade....an impossible task.
The US with its infrastructure would suffer a lot as their cities are designed with cars in mind. People in suburbia would be screwed. And cities had to be redesigned in order to house an effective public transportation. Europeans are lucky that way as their cities were buildt before the automobile was invented.
China and India witch today are desperately copying the west in order to become more developed have arrived to the party when the glass is half empty, and their thirst for oil will only increase. Anyhow, this documentary was a real sober reminder of just how much free rides cheap oil has given us, and that its thanks to oil alone that we have seen this remarkable growth here in the west for the past 100 years.
And the most disturbing part was that without all that cheap oil, the world would only be able to support a population of maybe 1-2 billion. Thats a lot less than the 6 billion people that will live here in 2030.
STAND OUT! |
Terail Zoqial
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Posted - 2007.09.17 05:39:00 -
[2]
I thinks it's pretty cool tbh, the end of the oil age.
There have been talks for years about various individuals who have sold their ideas of biofuels etc to the big petrolium complanies, also, the big companies will have alternatives as they still want to be in the fuel game.
Bring on teh revilution
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Tarquin Tarquinius
Gallente Escorts of Eve
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Posted - 2007.09.17 05:42:00 -
[3]
I'm stocking up on Hamster wheels. ------ wait...what? |
Fallen Elite
Four Rings D-L
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Posted - 2007.09.17 05:48:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Fallen Elite on 17/09/2007 05:49:02
Originally by: Death Kill Theres also those that say that if humans really had to develop technology that can replace oil, they could do it in a decade like in the 60's when Kennedy said the US where going to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. Well think of it more like this, it would be like saying we should colonize Pluto with 100000 humans by the end of the decade....an impossible task.
The US with its infrastructure would suffer a lot as their cities are designed with cars in mind. People in suburbia would be screwed. And cities had to be redesigned in order to house an effective public transportation. Europeans are lucky that way as their cities were buildt before the automobile was invented.
And the most disturbing part was that without all that cheap oil, the world would only be able to support a population of maybe 1-2 billion. Thats a lot less than the 6 billion people that will live here in 2030.
Sounds like a bunch of bull**** to me, even electric cars are at a point where they can be mass produced and sold around the globe. They can't replace the oil-based cars yet, for reasons a little more obvious than I could make them, but they're there and available.
However, there's been a rise of alternate energy sources lately, christ, even Sal****er's been found to be incredibly useful as a means of producing energy, whether it's cost effect is still not known.
Once some real development has been put into Nuclear Fusion, enough so that we can create and conserve 100% of the energy produced, we're set for life. ------
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.17 05:56:00 -
[5]
in b4 jim mcgregor ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Tarquin Tarquinius
Gallente Escorts of Eve
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Posted - 2007.09.17 05:58:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Fallen Elite
I believe electric cars for the most part still rely on fossil fuels since the vast majority of our electricity comes from coal and natural gas. ------ wait...what? |
Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.09.17 06:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Fallen Elite
Sounds like a bunch of bull**** to me, even electric cars are at a point where they can be mass produced and sold around the globe. They can't replace the oil-based cars yet, for reasons a little more obvious than I could make them, but they're there and available.
And where do you find this electricaty.... A hole in the ground?
Quote:
However, there's been a rise of alternate energy sources lately, christ, even Sal****er's been found to be incredibly useful as a means of producing energy, whether it's cost effect is still not known.
Once some real development has been put into Nuclear Fusion, enough so that we can create and conserve 100% of the energy produced, we're set for life.
I dont thinky you even read what I wrote. All these alternatives are irrelevant simply for the fact that we have had so much cheap energy, oil cannot be rivaled.
STAND OUT! |
Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.09.17 06:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Terail Zoqial I thinks it's pretty cool tbh, the end of the oil age.
There have been talks for years about various individuals who have sold their ideas of biofuels etc to the big petrolium complanies, also, the big companies will have alternatives as they still want to be in the fuel game.
Bring on teh revilution
Yeah they mentioned bio fuel too, they said it was not really an option as it wont even cover a tiny fraction of the energy need. Also, producing biofuel creates karbon-dioxide.
STAND OUT! |
Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.17 06:21:00 -
[9]
you never told us the name of this documentary so we can evaluate its veracity for ourselves ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.09.17 06:29:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Death Kill on 17/09/2007 06:32:26 I'm desperatly searching for its name, but the stupid online tv guide doesnt have last weeks schedual.
I can say this though, it had expert opinions made by ceo's of international oil companies as well as several professors and stuff. The documentary had no conspiracy elements in it.
edit : A Crude Awakening - The Oil Crash.
STAND OUT! |
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Nova Z
Decorum Inc
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Posted - 2007.09.17 06:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Death Kill Edited by: Death Kill on 17/09/2007 06:32:26 I'm desperatly searching for its name, but the stupid online tv guide doesnt have last weeks schedual.
I can say this though, it had expert opinions made by ceo's of international oil companies as well as several professors and stuff. The documentary had no conspiracy elements in it.
edit : A Crude Awakening - The Oil Crash.
A Crude Awakening - The Oil Crash
also worth a look:
The End of Surburbia .
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.17 06:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Death Kill I'm desperatly searching for its name, but the stupid online tv guide doesnt have last weeks schedual.
I can say this though, it had expert opinions made by ceo's of international oil companies as well as several professors and stuff. The documentary had no conspiracy elements in it.
it could have plenty of so called experts but it could still be an intellectually sloppy mess; with the internet we've seen plenty of free reign given to a lot of indy documentaries but just because you have experts or something to say doesn't mean you're committed to intellectual honesty and balance.
just sayin ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.09.17 06:59:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Death Kill on 17/09/2007 07:00:43
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Originally by: Death Kill I'm desperatly searching for its name, but the stupid online tv guide doesnt have last weeks schedual.
I can say this though, it had expert opinions made by ceo's of international oil companies as well as several professors and stuff. The documentary had no conspiracy elements in it.
it could have plenty of so called experts but it could still be an intellectually sloppy mess; with the internet we've seen plenty of free reign given to a lot of indy documentaries but just because you have experts or something to say doesn't mean you're committed to intellectual honesty and balance.
just sayin
I know what you mean, but this was a propper documentary. Thats why I added the 'not tinfoil' in the topic title ;)
edit : cheers for the links Nova Z :)
STAND OUT! |
zibelthurdos
Archron Dusyfe Industries Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.09.17 07:05:00 -
[14]
the oil peak worry has been around ,well yes since the 70's.
but what most people don't know is great strides are being made in the area of oil shale.
there are huge deposits of it, around 3.3 trillion barrels of recoverable oil, the only reason it's not relied on now is that liquid oil is more profitable. so those of us waiting around for the end of oil and a converison to tinhgs like hydrogen fuel cells will need to wait a couple hundred more years.
Linkage ----------------------------------------------- I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass, and I'm all out of bubble gum" |
Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.09.17 07:09:00 -
[15]
Originally by: zibelthurdos the oil peak worry has been around ,well yes since the 70's.
but what most people don't know is great strides are being made in the area of oil shale.
there are huge deposits of it, around 3.3 trillion barrels of recoverable oil, the only reason it's not relied on now is that liquid oil is more profitable. so those of us waiting around for the end of oil and a converison to tinhgs like hydrogen fuel cells will need to wait a couple hundred more years.
Linkage
Not really, as its not nearly enough to cover our consumption. Also, oil shale devestates the enviroment.
STAND OUT! |
zibelthurdos
Archron Dusyfe Industries Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.09.17 08:05:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: zibelthurdos the oil peak worry has been around ,well yes since the 70's.
but what most people don't know is great strides are being made in the area of oil shale.
there are huge deposits of it, around 3.3 trillion barrels of recoverable oil, the only reason it's not relied on now is that liquid oil is more profitable. so those of us waiting around for the end of oil and a converison to tinhgs like hydrogen fuel cells will need to wait a couple hundred more years.
Linkage
Not really, as its not nearly enough to cover our consumption. Also, oil shale devestates the enviroment.
and we aren't already? ----------------------------------------------- I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass, and I'm all out of bubble gum" |
Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.09.17 08:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: zibelthurdos
and we aren't already?
Both yes and no.
Canadians are strip mining for oil witch just leaves a huge crater the 'size of Texas' (metaphorical speaking) witch kills all local fauna. Imagine this being done on a massive, global scale.
STAND OUT! |
Nova Z
Decorum Inc
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Posted - 2007.09.17 08:27:00 -
[18]
As far as I'm aware, the main issue is not that we're running out of oil (although that is an issue), it's that the rate of oil consumption will soon outstrip supply, resulting in a hike in oil prices and the developed nations scrabbling to control what reserves there are. Which won't be pretty. .
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zibelthurdos
Archron Dusyfe Industries Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.09.17 08:33:00 -
[19]
Edited by: zibelthurdos on 17/09/2007 08:36:10
Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: zibelthurdos
and we aren't already?
Both yes and no.
Canadians are strip mining for oil witch just leaves a huge crater the 'size of Texas' (metaphorical speaking) witch kills all local fauna. Imagine this being done on a massive, global scale.
actually i recall reading an article (i'll find it) about a canadian company that has come up with a way to liquify it out of the shale without strip mining it.
found it it's called In Situ Retorting here bout 3/4 down the page ----------------------------------------------- I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass, and I'm all out of bubble gum" |
Atama Cardel
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.17 08:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: zibelthurdos
Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: zibelthurdos
and we aren't already?
Both yes and no.
Canadians are strip mining for oil witch just leaves a huge crater the 'size of Texas' (metaphorical speaking) witch kills all local fauna. Imagine this being done on a massive, global scale.
actually i recall reading an article (i'll find it) about a canadian company that has come up with a way to liquify it out of the shale without strip mining it.
I think I saw the same article, or at least one about a company that found a cheap way to pull it out of the ground
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Dred 'Morte
Winds of Dawn Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.17 08:45:00 -
[21]
IBJM
zero-point energy > oil
I hate Jacques Archambault |
ReaperOfSly
Gallente Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.09.17 08:46:00 -
[22]
Electric cars aren't really a solution, because you have to hook it up to a big oil or gas powerplant for it's go-juice.
Hydrogen fuel cells sound exciting, but then where do you get the hydrogen from? The most efficient way of obtaining hydrogen is seperating the hydrogen and oxygen in water, but that requires at least as much energy as you get by burning it in the vehicle. And where does that energy come from? Yes. Oil/gas powerplants.
Or maybe this would be a reason to get space travel going again - grab hydrogen from jupiter, put solar panels on mercury hooked up to immense rechargable batteries or something. Hell, why not just stick some really long metal rods to the earth's mantle and get energy from the heat difference in each end of the rods?
I like to think long-term. --------------------------------------------------------------------
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.17 08:56:00 -
[23]
It doesn't look terrible from the snippets I saw, anyway, if you'd like to see an incendiary doc about globalization I'd recommend Darwin's Nightmare.
___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
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Cornucopian
Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.09.17 09:02:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Cornucopian on 17/09/2007 09:04:52
Originally by: Death Kill Edited by: Death Kill on 17/09/2007 05:30:43 Saw this very interesting documentary last night about what will happen when oil runs out.
I used to date the daughter of one of the chief scientists of Shell, and had this very same discussion with him. He grinned knowingly a lot. He's currently working on how to get sand to purify Co2 rich air, to reduce carbon dioxide emitters like factories. A cheap solution would ensure that Co2 emitters like coalplants and stuff like that would not cycle co2 into the atmosphere but would lock it into sand.
He told me that never in the history of man has there ever been a reason to develop technology because something ran out, nor will there ever be in the future.
We didnt invent bronze weapons because of lack of rocks, and we didnt invent steel because the iron ran out. Nor do we devlop new tech today because oil is running out so fast as people would have you believe. Next to oil we use vast quantities of Coal and natural gas, which are the main suppliers of energy in the world, and have nothing to with oil. We're already cutting vast swathes of virgin rain forest in S. America to plant corps for biodiesel and other biofuels. Lexus, Prius, peugot, Porsche and many other car makers are building hybrid cars.
A vast number of logistical companies are in talks to up the percentage mix of biofuel in ocean haulers to 50%.
The main countries producing oil are investing in other things. Dubai is building a tourist trap, A saudi family has built the A1 GP: most rich saudis are moving away from oil. We do know the oil supply is finite, but the technology for other things has been around for quite a long while.
The European Fusion guys plan to have an almost full fusion powercore going as a testbed in 2010: the human race has been tinkering with fusion for a long time.
Oil wont be the end of civilization. Oil will die out, and some corps will die along with it, but in the end I wouldnt worry too much about it. Countries just need to seperate their economy from the price of a vat of oil.
Plastics you say? Most plastics can be made without oil these days. Hell you can make package material and grocery bags from potato skins. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Originally by: Royaldo
complete win by Cornucopian!
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.09.17 09:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cornucopian
He told me that never in the history of man has there ever been a reason to develop technology because something ran out, nor will there ever be in the future.
We didnt invent bronze weapons because of lack of rocks, and we didnt invent steel because the iron ran out. Nor do we devlop new tech today because oil is running out so fast as people would have you believe. Next to oil we use vast quantities of Coal and natural gas, which are the main suppliers of energy in the world, and have nothing to with oil. We're already cutting vast swathes of virgin rain forest in S. America to plant corps for biodiesel and other biofuels. Lexus, Prius, peugot, Porsche and many other car makers are building hybrid cars.
coal only took as so far, it was with oil we finally got a source of cheap energy. And it was from oil we got the high standards we have had for the past 50 years.
Quote:
The main countries producing oil are investing in other things. Dubai is building a tourist trap, A saudi family has built the A1 GP: most rich saudis are moving away from oil. We do know the oil supply is finite, but the technology for other things has been around for quite a long while.
How will tourist traps, A1GP replace energy?
Quote:
The European Fusion guys plan to have an almost full fusion powercore going as a testbed in 2010: the human race has been tinkering with fusion for a long time.
Oil wont be the end of civilization. Oil will die out, and some corps will die along with it, but in the end I wouldnt worry too much about it. Countries just need to seperate their economy from the price of a vat of oil.
Plastics you say? Most plastics can be made without oil these days. Hell you can make package material and grocery bags from potato skins.
Fusion is the holy grail, its harder than you think.
and yes, when oil runs out the standard of living as you know it will drop considerably.
STAND OUT! |
Sir Scorpion
Black Banners
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Posted - 2007.09.17 09:18:00 -
[26]
Problem is a lot of people think that oil is only used for transport or energy, but take a 360 degree look around you and you will find that there are hundreds of thousands of items if not millions that are in one way or the other conceited to oil, the chain has become too long, to simple be replaced. Think about it, lets say your keyboard.
Now itĘs the keyboard is almost 95% made out of plastic right? Now that needs oil, but how did it come here?
Lets say it was made in China, well it got from the port on a truckąsounds ok, but look into it more, how many parts of that truck are made out of oil ? 10k?100k?10m? I am not sure but a lot, what about the road that the truck used? Its made out of tar, so that needs oil, and it needs more trucks, which need more parts that are made out of oil, which are shipped by more trucks on longer roads, trailing all the way back to the sands of the middle east.
That is just a very small fraction of what oil is used for, try and think about it for every thing around and just think back on the process how it got here and how many things used oil to make it available.
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Cornucopian
Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.09.17 09:24:00 -
[27]
yo DK, recheck my original post in this thread, I just updated it with some info.
Oil will not be replaced, as it wont 'run out' for a fairly long time. Nuclear reactors will see increased usage, biomass, biofuel, and hybrid tech is seeing increased application. Oil will still be a valuable commodity, but not the main source of energy.
Hybrid Drives (Lexus) Electrical Cars (the one GM made) Hydrogen Cars (peugot)
Electric scooters (which get used in Europe a lot). There is public transport that runs on excess unsellable WINE. Cars that store energy when they brake, with the use of dynamos, houses with better insulation, reducing heating needs. Higher and stricter emission standards. A few solar panels on your house can be used to heat your water.
Fusion: The ITER project
----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Originally by: Royaldo
complete win by Cornucopian!
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.09.17 09:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cornucopian yo DK, recheck my original post in this thread, I just updated it with some info.
Oil will not be replaced, as it wont 'run out' for a fairly long time. Nuclear reactors will see increased usage, biomass, biofuel, and hybrid tech is seeing increased application. Oil will still be a valuable commodity, but not the main source of energy.
Hybrid Drives (Lexus) Electrical Cars (the one GM made) Hydrogen Cars (peugot)
Electric scooters (which get used in Europe a lot). There is public transport that runs on excess unsellable WINE. Cars that store energy when they brake, with the use of dynamos, houses with better insulation, reducing heating needs. Higher and stricter emission standards. A few solar panels on your house can be used to heat your water.
Fusion: The ITER project
Word. But electric cars need electricaty in order to run, hybrids needs petrol and are designed to cut back on emissions not reduce fuel usage.
The point made in that documentary is that the energy we get from oil is so overwhelmingly cheap and in such large quantities alternative energy sources simply wont be able to replace it.
To put it into perspective : In order to power Paris you would need about 50000 windmills.
STAND OUT! |
Cornucopian
Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.09.17 09:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: Cornucopian yo DK, recheck my original post in this thread, I just updated it with some info.
Oil will not be replaced, as it wont 'run out' for a fairly long time. Nuclear reactors will see increased usage, biomass, biofuel, and hybrid tech is seeing increased application. Oil will still be a valuable commodity, but not the main source of energy.
Hybrid Drives (Lexus) Electrical Cars (the one GM made) Hydrogen Cars (peugot)
Electric scooters (which get used in Europe a lot). There is public transport that runs on excess unsellable WINE. Cars that store energy when they brake, with the use of dynamos, houses with better insulation, reducing heating needs. Higher and stricter emission standards. A few solar panels on your house can be used to heat your water.
Fusion: The ITER project
Word. But electric cars need electricaty in order to run, hybrids needs petrol and are designed to cut back on emissions not reduce fuel usage.
The point made in that documentary is that the energy we get from oil is so overwhelmingly cheap and in such large quantities alternative energy sources simply wont be able to replace it.
To put it into perspective : In order to power Paris you would need about 50000 windmills.
as I said, oil supplies 37% of world energy, coal and gas 50%.... oil has never been the main energy supplier.... it just isnt true.....
Hybrids, which are only a first step, can be sufficiently advanced to reduce fuel usage: the thing is that all the things added together, and the extensive usage of these advances the efficiency and results one gets from such solutions, slowly making oil obsolete.
I'm not saying that oil will die out, I'm saying that coal and gas will grow, as well as nukes and environ friendly low energy usage solutions, reducing the share oil has in world energy usage. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Originally by: Royaldo
complete win by Cornucopian!
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Ray McCormack
hirr
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Posted - 2007.09.17 09:44:00 -
[30]
When the oil runs out, God will save us.
Proud steward of more public ISK than Motivated Prophet. Ask me about Secured ISK Loans. |
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