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Why are t2 bpos still in the game?

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Venec Rave Technologies Inc. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:45:00 - [61] To the bitter people: get out. Seriously. I want my T2 cheap.
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:12:00 - [62] Originally by: Lady Beauvoir This. Would you invent the T2 light drones I'm building currently, with 20k ISK profit per unit when built with a BPO? Or perhaps my T2 150mm light autocannons, with about 30k profit per unit when built from a BPO (now that I've driven the prices down in Jita)? If you would, why won't you invent these now? There's heaps of ISK just waiting, come and invent! You wouldn't, it's not profitable. Period. The reason these items exists at relatively low prices is the existence of T2 BPOs. If you would like to pay at least double the price on most T2 items, feel free. 30k profit per Item isn't that bad. Let's start calculating ... we say you sell 100 Items a day ... makes 3 millions per day ... 21 millions per Week ... 84 millions per Month. Let's double the price ... makes 190k profit per item ... 19 millions profit per day ... 115 millions profit per Week ... 460 millions profit per Month Now to invention, according to you it costs around 130k to build an Item from a bpo, since you can't say it exactly i'll say it costs around 20% more to invent and build (wich is realy high) ... 156 per Item. If i also want to have 30k profit per Item (21 millions per Week isn't that bad at all) the price will rise up to 186k, or in percent: 16 Now to the point, if i invent, build and sell t2 150mm autocannons, i'll make 7k per Item at a price where you'll make 30k. Just because i haven't had the luck to win the bpo, or because i wasn't silly enough to pay 20b for a bpo. Even with the price before invention (5x more means 685k profit per Unit) i have to sell 30k Items before i'll start making real profit, or to say it in other words, i have to work one year before i'll start making profit. The worst thing is to assume that t2 bpos holding the prices down, invention drop the price and without the bpos the price will just raise to the cost of invention. But it will be never double itself. -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
La5eR	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:50:00 - [63] Instead of removing them or making them high-run, why not just remove the possibility of a BPO drop from all sources. Overtime as ppl cancel their acct(s) itll iron itself out.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:10:00 - [64] Originally by: Bongolus Originally by: Lady Beauvoir This. Would you invent the T2 light drones I'm building currently, with 20k ISK profit per unit when built with a BPO? Or perhaps my T2 150mm light autocannons, with about 30k profit per unit when built from a BPO (now that I've driven the prices down in Jita)? If you would, why won't you invent these now? There's heaps of ISK just waiting, come and invent! You wouldn't, it's not profitable. Period. The reason these items exists at relatively low prices is the existence of T2 BPOs. If you would like to pay at least double the price on most T2 items, feel free. 30k profit per Item isn't that bad. Let's start calculating ... we say you sell 100 Items a day ... makes 3 millions per day ... 21 millions per Week ... 84 millions per Month. Let's double the price ... makes 190k profit per item ... 19 millions profit per day ... 115 millions profit per Week ... 460 millions profit per Month Now to invention, according to you it costs around 130k to build an Item from a bpo, since you can't say it exactly i'll say it costs around 20% more to invent and build (wich is realy high) ... 156 per Item. If i also want to have 30k profit per Item (21 millions per Week isn't that bad at all) the price will rise up to 186k, or in percent: 16 Now to the point, if i invent, build and sell t2 150mm autocannons, i'll make 7k per Item at a price where you'll make 30k. Just because i haven't had the luck to win the bpo, or because i wasn't silly enough to pay 20b for a bpo. Even with the price before invention (5x more means 685k profit per Unit) i have to sell 30k Items before i'll start making real profit, or to say it in other words, i have to work one year before i'll start making profit. The worst thing is to assume that t2 bpos holding the prices down, invention drop the price and without the bpos the price will just raise to the cost of invention. But it will be never double itself. Congratulations, you have just dimonstated that you haven't any idea about the cost of invention and that you really need to read the other posts about it. In your calculations you have totally forgotten the cost of datacores. The price Lady Beauvior was citing is the price producing from a BPO, the price producing from a invented BPC, included the invention process and the failure rate, is at least 230K of an acolyte II (and that is considering a very generous success rate of 75%); an acolyte II that sell at 60K. There the price is dictated only by by the BPO supply. On an average module with around 50% success rate and 1 ME datacore + 1 or another kind of datacore the cost of the invention process is around 3 millions for every 10 run BPC. So as I pointed more than once, if you move all T2 item production to invention the price of most modules will rise and the inventor will not get more isk, as the isk will be used for the invention material. To be a successfull inventer you need to invent what has demand high enough that the price is dictated by invention and not BPO builders. On the "great isk" you feel Lady Beauvoir is making, it is the equivalent of 1 level 3 mission, or 3 BS rats in 0.0. Probably killing 3 BS rats in 0.0 is 3 or 4 time faster than building and selling the drones. (and for the autocannon is the same)
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:28:00 - [65] Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/09/2007 16:28:32 Do you fancy paying 300 millions for a field command ship? Without T2 bpos, that's what you'll have to pay. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:45:00 - [66] Invention should have a small % change of creating a BPO. CCP could monitor/adjust this % to keep a stable ammount of BPOs for the population.
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:00:00 - [67] From what I recall, invention was a tool to... Keep T2 prices in check Once prices are in check, a way to build YOURSELF cheaper ships. What I do not ever recall it being intended for was as a way to make money for the inventor. It was a way to SAVE money as an inventor. Every corp/alliance would have an inventor on staff.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:00:00 - [68] Originally by: Rid*** Valer* Invention should have a small % change of creating a BPO. CCP could monitor/adjust this % to keep a stable ammount of BPOs for the population. slim percentage chance of inventing T2 BPO look this trhead. I am contrary to any % chance on normal invention attempt (it would have all the problems of the old lottery), but would like a focused attempt to create a T2 BPO stating from a T1 BPO.
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:25:00 - [69] Edited by: Bongolus on 21/09/2007 17:28:04 Originally by: Venkul Mul Congratulations, you have just dimonstated that you haven't any idea about the cost of invention and that you really need to read the other posts about it. In your calculations you have totally forgotten the cost of datacores. The price Lady Beauvior was citing is the price producing from a BPO, the price producing from a invented BPC, included the invention process and the failure rate, is at least 230K of an acolyte II (and that is considering a very generous success rate of 75%); an acolyte II that sell at 60K. There the price is dictated only by by the BPO supply. On an average module with around 50% success rate and 1 ME datacore + 1 or another kind of datacore the cost of the invention process is around 3 millions for every 10 run BPC. So as I pointed more than once, if you move all T2 item production to invention the price of most modules will rise and the inventor will not get more isk, as the isk will be used for the invention material. To be a successfull inventer you need to invent what has demand high enough that the price is dictated by invention and not BPO builders. On the "great isk" you feel Lady Beauvoir is making, it is the equivalent of 1 level 3 mission, or 3 BS rats in 0.0. Probably killing 3 BS rats in 0.0 is 3 or 4 time faster than building and selling the drones. (and for the autocannon is the same) Price of datacores wasn't forgotten as you said, they simply just cost nothing (Well you can be that stupid and buy them, but it's not necessary). 21 Million with 1 lvl 3 Mission ... sure. In which game? -.- In 0.0 you can make more than 21 Million with killing just one rat (called officer). I live here since 1.5 years and killed one ... If you are high skilled you can make up to 50 millions per hour with ratting, which is less because you always have the risk of loosing your ship and you have to be aktive all the time. 21 million for just sitting in save space, hitting some buttons and writing bull**** in the Forum is quiet a good benefit... There are exactly three factors that makes invention cost more than bpo production, the rent for the lab- and invention slots, the terrible me level from the copy you'll get and the cost of the additional items. You have a chance of 80% when inventing. This i have calculated. Invention howto -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
DOC PIC	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:30:00 - [70] Please CCP we need to nerf outposts, titans, dreads..no one I repeat no one should have that much isk ..lol REALLY FOLKS THESE POSTS ARE GETTING REAL OLD T2 BPOS ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE SOON SO GET OVER YOURSELVES. MANY MANY CURRENT OWNERS BOUGHT THEIRS CAUSE BUYERS WERE PAYING STUUPID ISK FOR THE GOOD ONES. SO THE LUCKY ONES HAVE ISK TO PLAY FOR QUITE A WHILE!! OOOOOOOOOOH LETS NERF THOSE THAT WON T2 BPOS AND SOLD THEM TOO.. The lottery is gone I have made billions on invention after investing billions made from T1 production. If you want isk go figure a way to make it instead of whining about t2 bpos that yes they still make isk but not quite as much.. Some of us have been here for years 4+ infact and are able to adapt when isk making is nerfed like trading etc. OOOOOOOH NOES I NEED TO BE NERFED , BEEN HERE 4+ YEARS AND HAVE MADE BILLIONS!! OK OFF MY SOAPBOX I GO!

Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:32:00 - [71] Originally by: Bongolus Originally by: Lady Beauvoir This. Would you invent the T2 light drones I'm building currently, with 20k ISK profit per unit when built with a BPO? Or perhaps my T2 150mm light autocannons, with about 30k profit per unit when built from a BPO (now that I've driven the prices down in Jita)? If you would, why won't you invent these now? There's heaps of ISK just waiting, come and invent! You wouldn't, it's not profitable. Period. The reason these items exists at relatively low prices is the existence of T2 BPOs. If you would like to pay at least double the price on most T2 items, feel free. 30k profit per Item isn't that bad. Let's start calculating ... we say you sell 100 Items a day ... makes 3 millions per day ... 21 millions per Week ... 84 millions per Month. Let's double the price ... makes 190k profit per item ... 19 millions profit per day ... 115 millions profit per Week ... 460 millions profit per Month Consider he is limited to build 36 of those auto cannons a day (unless built at a POS), that is a good magic trick you got there by sell 100 a day. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.21 18:00:00 - [72] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 21/09/2007 18:02:00 Originally by: Bongolus Edited by: Bongolus on 21/09/2007 17:28:04 Originally by: Venkul Mul Congratulations, you have just dimonstated that you haven't any idea about the cost of invention and that you really need to read the other posts about it. In your calculations you have totally forgotten the cost of datacores. The price Lady Beauvior was citing is the price producing from a BPO, the price producing from a invented BPC, included the invention process and the failure rate, is at least 230K of an acolyte II (and that is considering a very generous success rate of 75%); an acolyte II that sell at 60K. There the price is dictated only by by the BPO supply. On an average module with around 50% success rate and 1 ME datacore + 1 or another kind of datacore the cost of the invention process is around 3 millions for every 10 run BPC. So as I pointed more than once, if you move all T2 item production to invention the price of most modules will rise and the inventor will not get more isk, as the isk will be used for the invention material. To be a successfull inventer you need to invent what has demand high enough that the price is dictated by invention and not BPO builders. On the "great isk" you feel Lady Beauvoir is making, it is the equivalent of 1 level 3 mission, or 3 BS rats in 0.0. Probably killing 3 BS rats in 0.0 is 3 or 4 time faster than building and selling the drones. (and for the autocannon is the same) Price of datacores wasn't forgotten as you said, they simply just cost nothing (Well you can be that stupid and buy them, but it's not necessary). 21 Million with 1 lvl 3 Mission ... sure. In which game? -.- In 0.0 you can make more than 21 Million with killing just one rat (called officer). I live here since 1.5 years and killed one ... If you are high skilled you can make up to 50 millions per hour with ratting, which is less because you always have the risk of loosing your ship and you have to be aktive all the time. 21 million for just sitting in save space, hitting some buttons and writing bull** in the Forum is quiet a good benefit... There are exactly three factors that makes invention cost more than bpo production, the rent for the lab- and invention slots, the terrible me level from the copy you'll get and the cost of the additional items. You have a chance of 80% when inventing. This i have calculated. Invention howto You are: a) very funny b) really ingenue c) a troll Originally by:** Bongolus we say you sell 100 Items a day ... makes 3 millions per day ... 3 millions a day = 1 level 3 mission = 3 BS, datacores free = you can sell them, so they cost exactly what you dont get from selling, learn some economy. If you use 2 datacores you can sell for 1,5 millions you are using 1,5 millions of resourece. If your invention don't give back those 1,5 millions, you are losing isk, not gaining. You are one of those persons that think that the minerals yourself are free?
DOC DOCCCC	Posted - 2007.09.21 18:14:00 - [73] OMG I JUST MADE 700 MILL LAST MONTH SPAMMING lvl3 MISIIONS CCP NERF ME!!!!!!!!
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.09.21 19:19:00 - [74] Originally by: Bongolus Price of datacores wasn't forgotten as you said, they simply just cost nothing (Well you can be that stupid and buy them, but it's not necessary). Congratulations. you just failed Economics 101. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
pandymen Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.09.21 20:36:00 - [75] Edited by: pandymen on 21/09/2007 20:39:43 I don't own any t2 bpos currently, and I want them to remain in existence. Not a single person in this thread has given one good reason for why they should be removed. The best reason anyone ever said is that it is unfair to everyone else, no risk, only profit...blah blah blah. Unfortunately, they neglect to mention that there is quite a bit of risk involved, because when you buy a T2 bpo for several bil, you kinda take the risk that profit margins on the item will remain stable for a long period of time so that you can recover costs. I can't believe you see no risk in spending 20 bil on a t2 bpo that may or may not be affected by future changes in game mechanics and invention. Besides, everyone is ignoring that "t3" is coming out relatively soon. Once that happens, t2 will most likely not be in as much demand, as they are no longer the best ships. TBH, those against the bpos are simply jealous that some people have t2 bpos that they don't have and weren't around to get in the first place..much like me. This is the same kind of whine people made when heat came out and they didn't want to have to train a rank 3 skill to lvl 5 and it was unfair that older players could use heat and they couldn't You just want an easy way to print money, as you view t2 bpos to be (altho you apparently have no idea how they or invention work). Honestly t2 bpos are not out of your reach. Think of ways to make money other than t2 bpos...get that money, and buy one. It's quite simple, and can be done with only 1 bil or so isk. And honestly, if there was some mechanic that made it much easier to get a bil isk than it is already, inflation would take hold, and everything would cost more simply because ppl have tons and tons of isk to throw around and they wont bother producing t1 stuff as much. That said, look at invention. If you pick the right items, you can make iskloads, it just takes capital to start...much like a t2 bpo would.
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.21 21:23:00 - [76] Originally by: Venkul Mul You are: a) very funny b) really ingenue c) a troll Originally by: Bongolus we say you sell 100 Items a day ... makes 3 millions per day ... 3 millions a day = 1 level 3 mission = 3 BS, datacores free = you can sell them, so they cost exactly what you dont get from selling, learn some economy. If you use 2 datacores you can sell for 1,5 millions you are using 1,5 millions of resourece. If your invention don't give back those 1,5 millions, you are losing isk, not gaining. You are one of those persons that think that the minerals that you mine are free? Quote: You have a chance of 80% when inventing. This i have calculated. Care to give your oh so careful calculation? My experimentations with different combinations and run of more than 100 attempts for every combinations give a success rate way lower and not constant between the different modules. Unless in your 80% figure you are always using best chance decryptors. You told me to read the forum postings and that's what i did, look at the link. The minerals i mine just cost me time, i don't pay something to finish the cycle. The datacores don't cost me time at all. My best Agent give me 2.5 per day for nothing. All i need is the time to fly to him and gather 'em. If i'm going after ridiculous market values and are of that kind most people here accuse me to be, I would have whined a lot in this forum after the Zydrine nerf, 'cause I've lost over 2b on that. I did a calculation, even if it's ingenue as you said, it's comprehensible. You just throwing in numbers without any evidence. And still the point is that this is a game not RL, except for DOC DOCCCC (you realy should get yourself one), and in my opinion it should be fair. But to satisfy all those price whiners i'll change my demand: Take t2 bpos out of the game and change invention in a way that the prices won't go up. And at least: Originally by: DOC PIC OOOOOOOH NOES I NEED TO BE NERFED , BEEN HERE 4+ YEARS AND HAVE MADE BILLIONS!! Originally by: prathe in fact people who can afford tech 2 ships should also be nerfed because it unfair so all tech 2 items should be nerfed to t-1 items and while were at it just because somebody has more sp than me shouldn't mean they can fly better ships then me i want to be able to fly all ships in eve including titan so all ships should be 1 isk and have no skill reqs Stop this kind of postings, that's so stupid. I'm in eve for over 2.5 years, i've made my billions too, i have my carrier and so on, without owning a t2 bpo myself. Everyone who starts playing eve has equal chances. They can skill in that way or another. They can running missions, mine, trade or doing whatever to make their money, which is all fair. Except for the t2 bpos, where some players getting better chances just because of luck. That's the point i wanted to mention, not more not less. I don't mind anyones money if he get it in a fair way, 'cause i had the chance to do it that way too. -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 22:25:00 - [77] Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/09/2007 16:28:32 Do you fancy paying 300 millions for a field command ship? Without T2 bpos, that's what you'll have to pay. That's odd, because that's what we were paying with the BPOs. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ravenal The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.21 23:57:00 - [78] Originally by: Hllaxiu The OP is deluding himself if he thinks that all 0.0 alliances do their t2 business using characters that are in their alliance. they suffer from altsyndrome. .
Benvie	Posted - 2007.09.22 04:20:00 - [79] You really need to learn the concept of opportunity cost. What you're saying is the equivalent of: - I get 3 datacores per day. - Those datacores sell for 5 million on the market. - Instead of selling those datacores I throw them in the garbage and **** on them. - Even though they could have been sold for 5 million, I am somehow not losing money by throwing them away. You're an idiot.
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.22 09:47:00 - [80] Originally by: Benvie You really need to learn the concept of opportunity cost. What you're saying is the equivalent of: - I get 3 datacores per day. - Those datacores sell for 5 million on the market. - Instead of selling those datacores I throw them in the garbage and **** on them. - Even though they could have been sold for 5 million, I am somehow not losing money by throwing them away. You're an idiot. You still didn't get the point, did you? At least, i don't lose money when counting datacores as free. Losing money means i have less money on my wallet than before. Just because these datacores are in the market for 10M or 100M or 1B dosen't mean that they are sold for that price, or are sold in such a number to make more money than using them into invention. It's just a theoretical value, and a ridiculous value too. You can't put it into calculation. They still are free to get. If all people who do invention now start to sell their datacores on the market instead of using them in their own inventions, their price will drop rapidley. I also can start to sell my Zydrine for 4k which theoretical means i'm rich, but it dosen't change something on my wallet, except the loss for the market costs. And in the end it dosen't change something on the point that it is still unfair when u try to build a t2 item using invention compared to building an item with a bpo. -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!

Dread Phantom Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.22 10:03:00 - [81] Originally by: Bongolus Originally by: Benvie You really need to learn the concept of opportunity cost. What you're saying is the equivalent of: - I get 3 datacores per day. - Those datacores sell for 5 million on the market. - Instead of selling those datacores I throw them in the garbage and **** on them. - Even though they could have been sold for 5 million, I am somehow not losing money by throwing them away. You're an idiot. You still didn't get the point, did you? At least, i don't lose money when counting datacores as free. Losing money means i have less money on my wallet than before. Just because these datacores are in the market for 10M or 100M or 1B dosen't mean that they are sold for that price, or are sold in such a number to make more money than using them into invention. It's just a theoretical value, and a ridiculous value too. You can't put it into calculation. They still are free to get. If all people who do invention now start to sell their datacores on the market instead of using them in their own inventions, their price will drop rapidley. I also can start to sell my Zydrine for 4k which theoretical means i'm rich, but it dosen't change something on my wallet, except the loss for the market costs. And in the end it dosen't change something on the point that it is still unfair when u try to build a t2 item using invention compared to building an item with a bpo. I love it, you put so much effort into your trolling, its a thing of beauty
Bongolus Gallente Black Sheep Enterprises Spear 0f Destiny	Posted - 2007.09.22 11:10:00 - [82] Originally by: Dread Phantom I love it, you put so much effort into your trolling, its a thing of beauty How about puting something wise into the discussion instead of just blaming me for no reason? -------------------------------------------------- Rule the hell or serve in heaven!
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.22 11:24:00 - [83] Edited by: Shadowsword on 22/09/2007 11:24:33 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/09/2007 16:28:32 Do you fancy paying 300 millions for a field command ship? Without T2 bpos, that's what you'll have to pay. That's odd, because that's what we were paying with the BPOs. The only command ship that ever went above 200M was the nighthawk. If you want a proof, here's a quick calculation: datacores cost: 25 millions decryptor: 30 millions T1 ship: 25 millions max-run BC BPC: let's say 10 millions. average run obtained per invention job: around 1.4 cost of invention for a command ship: 61 millions. cost of production with a ME -7 print: somewhere around 100 millions. Add to that the fact that 50% of the obtained runs will be fleet command ships, worth on average 90-100 millions. and it's just not profitable to invent them. That means that they're not invented. So, invention has no influence on the current field command ships market value. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
pirategirl85	Posted - 2007.09.22 11:28:00 - [84] Originally by: Jamie 315 Originally by: Bongolus Originally by: Celeste Coeval why are you allowed to post on the forums? Who allowed you to make silly postings? At least i've explained my question, your post is just crap ... Funny thing is your the one that is posting crap. The people with the bpos won them in a lottery that was closed so everyone could get a fair chance (btw your from 05, which means you have had a while to try and win the lottery, did you even try?). If you release t2 bpos on the market it will destroy invention (oops cause and effect). Which will hurt so many people that your small mind can not even begin to understand. T2 bpos used to equal lots and lots of isky in production (3b to 4b a week with a hulk bpo profit). Now they still make some nice profits but nothing compared to what they used to make. Those BPOs are only worth isk to 0.0 alliances (like the ones bidding on it). They don't want to flip the bill for invention and have it possibly fail. They want to be able to click build on any BPO and have it be done asap. Thats why the bpo of a t2 item is worth allot. Now if you look at the profit margin of the bpo you will see yes its a nice profit, but not end of the world. Life ain't fair so why should eve be fair? Should every alliance hold equal space and lose equal amounts of isk in fights and have equal memebers with equal numbers with equal skills with equal standings to caldari state? NO. If you can not figure out how to make isk well tough luck, don't try and get someone to tell you how to. You failed at invention and you want to take it out on the bpo holders? Bitterness I geuss. What did you try to invent anyway? This guy needs his forum account removing with posts like that.


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