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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Artemis Picoazaksat
Brothers At Arms Nulli Tertius
30
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Posted - 2012.01.23 13:17:00 -
[421] - Quote
What is the difference in Risk-Reward between incursions and a -1.0 dead end system that is cyno jammed and the gate rapecaged by T2 large bubbles with a intel channel? Unless there is a hoard of nullified T3 you are safe to farm that system to your hearts content. I admit I farmed incursion for a while so I did not need to rat and could just PVP until I ran out of isk.
I mean personally I blame Adolf, Communism and Solar Flares but that is just me. |
Morar Santee
15
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Posted - 2012.01.23 13:33:00 -
[422] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Of course bounties account for substantially more of an isk faucet overall than incursions alone. By quite a considerable amount. Oh really? Source? Numbers?
Oookay... so let me get this straight.
1. You are shedding a river of tears because Incursions are such a gigantic ISK faucet. 2. You demand proof that bounties are not, in fact, a bigger ISK faucet than Incursions. 3. You constitute that because there are no current numbers available, you must of course have been right all along. Without being able to provide any hard numbers yourself. At all. Whatsoever.
I'll pay you everything I earned in Incursions last week if you honestly answer this question: Have you ever considered, even for a minute, to pull your head out of your ass - just for a little while - to find out how fresh air smells?
The funniest thing is: I think Incursion rewards were mis-calculated from the get-go. Both in terms of scaling between different types of sites in Incursions and in terms of ISK payout as part of rewards. But then I see these threads, filled to the brim with misinformed, intellectually challenged would-bes, whining about how Incursions are so horrible. And then they either provide completely made-up numbers to illustrate how huge the ISK faucet is, or demand other people provide official numbers to disprove a hypothesis they can't support, when their own made-up **** doesn't cut it.
I can't decide whether I want to laugh about the idiocy of it all or weep for mankind. |
Aruken Marr
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
22
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Posted - 2012.01.23 13:33:00 -
[423] - Quote
Artemis Picoazaksat wrote:What is the difference in Risk-Reward between incursions and a -1.0 dead end system that is cyno jammed and the gate rapecaged by T2 large bubbles with a intel channel? Unless there is a hoard of nullified T3 you are safe to farm that system to your hearts content. I admit I farmed incursion for a while so I did not need to rat and could just PVP until I ran out of isk.
I mean personally I blame Adolf, Communism and Solar Flares but that is just me.
Because we all know that cyno jammers, bubbles and intel channels come free with sov...
But really, the players out in null (not just null, this applies to lowsec and wh space) make it safe for themselves and their alliance. Incursion runners are protected by concord. One is automatic and the other requires effort and team work. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
348
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Posted - 2012.01.23 13:44:00 -
[424] - Quote
Morar Santee wrote:Tippia wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Of course bounties account for substantially more of an isk faucet overall than incursions alone. By quite a considerable amount. Oh really? Source? Numbers? Oookay... so let me get this straight. 1. You are shedding a river of tears because Incursions are such a gigantic ISK faucet. 2. You demand proof that bounties are not, in fact, a bigger ISK faucet than Incursions. 3. You constitute that because there are no current numbers available, you must of course have been right all along. Without being able to provide any hard numbers yourself. At all. Whatsoever. I'll pay you everything I earned in Incursions last week if you honestly answer this question: Have you ever considered, even for a minute, to pull your head out of your ass - just for a little while - to find out how fresh air smells? The funniest thing is: I think Incursion rewards were mis-calculated from the get-go. Both in terms of scaling between different types of sites in Incursions and in terms of ISK payout as part of rewards. But then I see these threads, filled to the brim with misinformed, intellectually challenged would-bes, whining about how Incursions are so horrible. And then they either provide completely made-up numbers to illustrate how huge the ISK faucet is, or demand other people provide official numbers to disprove a hypothesis they can't support, when their own made-up **** doesn't cut it. I can't decide whether I want to laugh about the idiocy of it all or weep for mankind. http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/rgass/fallacy3211.htm Familiarize yourself with that list before sparring with Tippia. Its for your own good. o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
536
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 13:44:00 -
[425] - Quote
minmatarsebiestormale20091011111 wrote:Basicly BrickSquad and co. have killed another mothership thus closing the incursion. Sounds like the intended way of dealing with an incursion, kill it off as soon as possible.
minmatarsebiestormale20091011111 wrote:This is becoming a joke, i get the point that incursions need looking at and balancing. But these idiots cry because they want the whole of eve to play, the way they play. Killing the mom for a laff so the bears cant farm is punishing the normal player. The only reason you're thinking this is "punishing the normal player" is because you want to milk it.
minmatarsebiestormale20091011111 wrote:CCP needs to put a stop to this now!!. If anything make the incursions run a timer of 3-4days before they move, even if the mom hasnt been killed. (As short term solution for now) As I was saying, milking it.
minmatarsebiestormale20091011111 wrote:Also CSM's have been involved in these MOM killing fleets. This shows me they out for their own interests or corp/alliance interests. They are ment to be listening to the community not ruining it. Tinfoil Hats Inc. is thaddaway. Down the hall, second door to the left. |
Morar Santee
15
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Posted - 2012.01.23 13:55:00 -
[426] - Quote
Now.. if you understood what you linked, you would probably realize that half of these points apply to the reasoning of people whining about Incursions.
1. Faulty cause: "There is Incursions, there is inflation, ergo Incursion must have caused inflation."
5. Appeal to Ignorance: "You cannot prove Incursions are NOT a bigger ISK faucet than bounties, therefore they must be." (Which happens to be the topic of my original post. Did you read it?)
8. Faulty Sign: "OmG Incursions - if we don't stop them, Null-Sec will DIE!!!"
9. ad hominem: "lolol incurzun bear tearz! whutevar u say iz teh liess! incursion is EBIL!"
I'd go through the rest of the list, but I can't be arsed. Just... make an effort to understand what you link. |
Nirnias Stirrum
Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
12
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Posted - 2012.01.23 14:00:00 -
[427] - Quote
What im most dissapointed about overall this is that NO ONE IS BLOODY WARDECCING US!! I mean come on people we make you cry, the least you could do is war dec us and fight us to vent your frustration!
On another note, When incursions started i didnt think they would be around all the time, i mean how long will a nation continue invading another nation for? Always thought that after a few months the incursions would stop all together... but maybe thats a bit to realistic?
Imagine the tears if incursions stopped all together? Oh how glorious! |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
89
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 14:00:00 -
[428] - Quote
Morar Santee wrote:Now.. if you understood what you linked, you would probably realize that half of these points apply to the reasoning of people whining about Incursions. 1. Faulty cause: "There is Incursions, there is inflation, ergo Incursion must have caused inflation." 5. Appeal to Ignorance: "You cannot prove Incursions are NOT a bigger ISK faucet than bounties, therefore they must be." (Which happens to be the topic of my original post. Did you read it?) 8. Faulty Sign: "OmG Incursions - if we don't stop them, Null-Sec will DIE!!!" 9. ad hominem: "lolol incurzun bear tearz! whutevar u say iz teh liess! incursion is EBIL!" I'd go through the rest of the list, but I can't be arsed. Just... make an effort to understand what you link. Edit: Wait, was that a genuine warning? I really didn't expect friendly advice in this thread in particular, so please ignore my ranting if that is the case.
That is only 1/7 of the list of logical fallacy
Here is the rest.
.Ad Hominem Ad Hominem Tu Quoque Appeal to Authority Appeal to Belief Appeal to Common Practice Appeal to Consequences of a Belief Appeal to Emotion Appeal to Fear Appeal to Flattery Appeal to Novelty Appeal to Pity Appeal to Popularity Appeal to Ridicule Appeal to Spite Appeal to Tradition Bandwagon Begging the Question Biased Sample Burden of Proof Circumstantial Ad Hominem Composition Confusing Cause and Effect Division False Dilemma Gambler's Fallacy Genetic Fallacy Guilt By Association Hasty Generalization Ignoring A Common Cause Middle Ground Misleading Vividness Personal Attack Poisoning the Well Post Hoc Questionable Cause Red Herring Relativist Fallacy Slippery Slope Special Pleading Spotlight Straw Man Two Wrongs Make A Right
No way I'm typing examples.
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
537
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 14:03:00 -
[429] - Quote
Nirnias Stirrum wrote:What im most dissapointed about overall is that NO ONE IS BLOODY WARDECCING US!! I mean come on people we make you cry, the least you could do is war dec us and fight us to vent your frustration!
On another note, When incursions started i didnt think they would be around all the time, i mean how long will a nation continue invading another nation for? Always thought that after a few months the incursions would stop all together... but maybe thats a bit to realistic?
Imagine the tears if incursions stopped all together? Oh how glorious! There's been tears becuse an incursion didn't respawn for A FULL DAY. |
Florestan Bronstein
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
394
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 14:18:00 -
[430] - Quote
Nirnias Stirrum wrote:What im most dissapointed about overall is that NO ONE IS BLOODY WARDECCING US!! I mean come on people we make you cry, the least you could do is war dec us and fight us to vent your frustration!
answer is that if you are war-decced people in BTL/TDF won't run fleets with you
I had a war going with a dissolved corp once and even that was a huge hassle to get people to accept...
if they would war-dec you they would just make themselves cry for another 7 days^^ |
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Chib
Reliables Inc Initiative Mercenaries
2
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Posted - 2012.01.23 14:23:00 -
[431] - Quote
I applaud D3 (for csm7) in his fine work
whats funny is i was on comms talking to them while trying to run incursions while they were popping the MS at the same time
and i didnt even know it!
bastids stole my isks
but <3 em
|
Allko
Zero Tax services
0
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Posted - 2012.01.23 14:28:00 -
[432] - Quote
So who said there are no Risk Vs Reward in incursions? lol ... have u ever been in a fleet where logis are... i do no... sleeping? :D + trolls+pirates+stuff like disc. etc. I gues some pl just cant get enought of it.... theyre idea of perfect pvp is a lvl4`s and in stead of NPC`s they could shoot at carebears flying arround helpless with faction fitet BS :D |
Traiori
Silverwing Explorers Unfamiliar Presence
8
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Posted - 2012.01.23 14:33:00 -
[433] - Quote
To throw a couple of ideas out here,
Why not have a multiplier on incursion rewards depending on how red/blue the bar is? Rewards start at 100% and decrease to 40-50% over time.
Sure, run sites as fast as you like. You'll still be capped at 40-50m/h income, because, frankly, you've been farming them to death.
Better yet, have a time multiplier on all rewards of the incursion. Take a week over killing the mothership? CONCORD have been instructed that, due to the fact that so many citizens were abducted, they are only to pay out 50% of your rewards. Pay out ISK when incursion is over (remove the 'mothership must be killed restriction' perhaps, so that people can run the odd site and still receive the rewards, even if they can't pull together a fleet capable of killing the mothership. Small gang activity: ninja run incursions in null!) as well, so that multipliers apply to this. Maybe 24 hour grace period of 100%, then a decrease of 1%/hour thereafter.
Or how about we have sec status vary with incursions? Lose 0.1 sec/hour (because variable sec status would make this game interesting) and that way any hisec system will, after a couple of days, be losec. Incursions would probably be tidied up just in time for the sec status to not drop below 0.5, but meh. That's life.
Maybe you could limit the number of sites in total, thereby removing infinite-spawns. Whilst you're at it, limit the number of missions any agent can give out per day. The first removes incursion profiteering, the second means that you have to use - oh noes! - more than one mission agent. Maybe you might have to use more than one corporation to mission with. How terrible for all those people that just want to sit in a single system all day farming l4's.
I digress away from incursions however, so to bring it back to incursions..
Tidy up AI. AI should receive a boost, and start targeting intelligently. Lets have some more jammers, lets have those jammers hitting logi ships and guns hitting a different target to break up the rr chains. The guy who suggested the mothership cynos into whichever site has the highest value ships is a great idea. It would shake up incursions again, and mean that suddenly the incursion is actually more of a problem.
Tidy up the vast expanse of 'known knowledge' about incursions. Randomise spawns slightly. Do the same to all PvE content. I fly in wormholes on a couple of alts, and we do get random spawns there. The extra battleship that turns an easy site into one that actually requires you to wake up a bit in certain C2 anomalies for example. That kind of 'extra on-top' ship appearing to give a boost to dps would be nice.
Decrease the ability to blitz, increase rewards. 3 minutes a site is ridiculous. Maybe remove blitz-ability somehow - accel. gates and multi-room sites? Randomised triggers? Time triggers? Time triggers would be good, allowing smaller gangs without shiny faction fit ships to complete sites only marginally slower.
Maybe randomise how the sites spawn across the constellation. Having a set system for VG's means that you can just sit in that system all day. Create a more dynamic, fluid, feeling to incursions and split up the spawns across the constellation, similar to how explorers suspect wormhole site spawn mechanics work.
GATE RATS IN HISEC because then there'd be another reason for incursions to be dealt with relatively quickly. Make sure these rats scram as well please. It'll keep us all on our toes during incursions.
This post is intended to be a compilation of ideas that I've heard from guys I fly with and things that occurred to me as I read through this thread. There are lots of contradictions, or things that wouldn't work well as one cohesive unit in this post, and - obviously - I don't think that doing everything listed would be any better than doing none of it. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4514
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 14:38:00 -
[434] - Quote
Morar Santee wrote:1. You are shedding a river of tears because Incursions are such a gigantic ISK faucet. 2. You demand proof that bounties are not, in fact, a bigger ISK faucet than Incursions. 3. You constitute that because there are no current numbers available, you must of course have been right all along. Without being able to provide any hard numbers yourself. At all. Whatsoever. 1. No. I'm merely concerned because it looks like it might be one, given the numbers people throw around, but no-one has any actual data on incursions and it would be nice to have some in order to have a sensible debate on the issue. 2. No, I demand some factual basis for the assertions people make, especially in cases when no such numbers have been provided to my knowledge. If someone could provide actual numbers, the comparison is easy since we do have figure for many of the other faucets. 3. No, I merely conclude that the claims being made are unsubstantiated and quite possibly made up.
Quote:But then I see these threads, filled to the brim with misinformed, intellectually challenged would-bes, whining about how Incursions are so horrible. ...and that is why I ask people who make these kinds of claims to provide some data to back up their statements. No matter what it shows, it would be interesting. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Arec Bardwin
Perkone Caldari State
236
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 15:22:00 -
[435] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote: I've already suggested once, somewhere, that the way to fix Incursions is to make the mom hotdrop people once she spawns. It would make perfect sense for her to drop into vanguard sites to defend her minions. This would perfectly bring the risk level up to match the rewards, without some of the crazy 'make incursion areas nullsec' type ideas I have heard.
This is an awesome idea
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
539
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 15:24:00 -
[436] - Quote
Allko wrote:So who said there are no Risk Vs Reward in incursions? Yes, incursion runners are downright heroes, what with all the terrible danger they face. |
Fidelium Mortis
Quantum Cats Syndicate
34
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Posted - 2012.01.23 15:37:00 -
[437] - Quote
@ OP - Have you considered running any of the other incursions that are still active? Or perhaps look into a secondary source of income. ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1650
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 15:45:00 -
[438] - Quote
Artemis Picoazaksat wrote:What is the difference in Risk-Reward between incursions and a -1.0 dead end system that is cyno jammed and the gate rapecaged by T2 large bubbles with a intel channel?
i've never seen a dead-end -1.0 system in sov space, so heh
also, get a spy into their alliance or a blue alliance, take a covops into the system via jump bridge, find ratter, point, light covert cyno for a bomber gang on a blackops
done, cynojammers can kiss my ass |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
248
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 15:53:00 -
[439] - Quote
Making the PVE harder won't make the farming problem go away, unless something is done to incursions to make it possible for incursion runners have to actually shoot other players at some point the risk involved in running incursions will still be virtually nil. |
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
10
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Posted - 2012.01.23 15:59:00 -
[440] - Quote
minmatarsebiestormale20091011111 wrote:
SO CCP SORT OUT THESE IDIOTS WHO ARE RUINING THE GAME
CCP have given you all the tools you need to 'sort them out'. It's not CCPs fault that you choose not to use them. |
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I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
62
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Posted - 2012.01.23 15:59:00 -
[441] - Quote
I think Incursions would be a great way to get the Jove involved with the game. Could have them warp in after a set amount of time and chase the dirty Sansha back where they belong since it doesn't seem Concord is going to do anything about the Sansha. Of course, the farmers still wouldn't like it since they couldn't farm the ISK any longer. ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o )
The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
522
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 16:00:00 -
[442] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:I think Incursions would be a great way to get the Jove involved with the game. Could have them warp in after a set amount of time and chase the dirty Sansha back where they belong since it doesn't seem Concord is going to do anything about the Sansha. Of course, the farmers still wouldn't like it since they couldn't farm the ISK any longer.
-_-
I heard spiolers from the new novel that they are ALL DEAD(didnt rear it yet tho) |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
526
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 16:03:00 -
[443] - Quote
Incursion runners are sociopaths.
All they think about is their own satisfaction. What about the little people, who live in those systems? They have to wait a week to be able to play?
Oh but they could move. Well so could you! You could finish the incursion, then move on to the next.
Right now, whether they care or not, Darius and crew are champions of antisociopathy. |
Krissada
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 16:05:00 -
[444] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote: Right now, whether they care or not, Darius and crew are champions of antisociopathy.
No one mentions me. I think I will join the incursion runners and cry with them. |
Lex Alandar
Whiskey Prospects Luna Sanguinem
4
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Posted - 2012.01.23 16:18:00 -
[445] - Quote
I find it absolutely friggin hilarious that the group claiming bears are making too much risk-free isk are using those same bears to prime their own risk-free blueprint-farming activities.
And you all think it's about nerfing incursions?
ahahahahahahahahahaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
This thread clearly shows the motivation:
-tear collection -as many sansha mom bpcs as the bears will serve up for them
|
Krissada
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 16:20:00 -
[446] - Quote
Lex Alandar wrote: This thread clearly shows the motivation:
-tear collection -as many sansha mom bpcs as the bears will serve up for them
One is correct and the other is wrong. Guess which one you imbecile. |
Dr Jan Itor
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 16:57:00 -
[447] - Quote
Please ELI5 why it is a problem that people are doing incursions. |
The Snowman
xLegion of the dammedx.
24
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Posted - 2012.01.23 17:03:00 -
[448] - Quote
Havoc Zealot wrote:I actually logged in to reply to this thread.
I support these mom killings...they were meant to be killed and not have the lesser incursions farmed. you forgot to log into your dev account to make this statement |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1651
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 17:05:00 -
[449] - Quote
Lex Alandar wrote:I find it absolutely friggin hilarious that the group claiming bears are making too much risk-free isk are using those same bears to prime their own risk-free blueprint-farming activities.
And you all think it's about nerfing incursions?
ahahahahahahahahahaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
This thread clearly shows the motivation:
-tear collection -as many sansha mom bpcs as the bears will serve up for them
revenant BPCs only drop in lowsec incursions, hope that helps |
Katherine Starlight
Apex Tech Xenogenesis Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 18:34:00 -
[450] - Quote
revenant BPCs only drop in lowsec incursions, hope that helps[/quote]
they kill the lowsec ones too afaik.
Darius is a master at collecting tears, i wonder what he does with all of them, take a bath in them maybe? |
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