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The Lamentress
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Posted - 2007.09.27 18:18:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Barrick Stormsworn
See you in space. When I lose my Rifter taking down your Vulture, feel free to call it a victory all you want. It's not my wallet that'll be crying.
Irony.
I am thinking you are Caldari at heart, shaded rogue, the way you measure success in ISK.
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Naughty People
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2007.09.27 18:49:00 -
[32]
Originally by: The Lamentress
Originally by: Barrick Stormsworn
See you in space. When I lose my Rifter taking down your Vulture, feel free to call it a victory all you want. It's not my wallet that'll be crying.
Irony.
I am thinking you are Caldari at heart, shaded rogue, the way you measure success in ISK.
CAIN declared this war to 'punish' Electus Matari. What form do you think they meant that punishment come, if not in ISK and the ability to earn ISK?
In the age of the capsule, what better way to measure the resolve of a combatant than their wallets? Governments own the space, so they aren't fighting over territory. Everyone has docking rights, so it can't be that. And even the most inept capsuleers have little trouble finding crew to serve on their vessels.
Every ship that cannot be replaced due to their expense reduce their former owner's combat ability. Ships that can be replaced tax the moneymaking potential of the parent organization, but since Electus Matari's shipyards are not vulnerable to a military assault, I doubt that the strain is intolerable.
This war will when either Electus Matari or CAIN can no longer bear to sustain their losses. When that happens, one or the other will break. Either Electus Matari swallow their pride and admit defeat, or CAIN will stop trying to pressure them into doing so.
I am, of course, assuming that CAIN is being honest when they say that their invasion of Republic territory and war with a Republican paramilitary was predicated by an attack on their own ships in Tannolen. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time CAIN went to war over a flimsy pretext.
_
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.09.27 19:30:00 -
[33]
At the battle mentioned here, some ships blew up. The beancounting here on who exactly "won" the battle ISK-wise or at least "held the field" when the ISK counting doesn't quite work as expected, is way too much effort put into this incident.
Aside from the gratifying feeling you get when you see the ships of people explode that committed crimes against humanity beyond any redemption (yes, CAIN, that refers to you), it's completely irrelevant.
This war isn't about what damage we do to CAIN. This war is about what damage they do to us, to force us to follow their demands. And about that goal, I am afraid I have bad news for CAIN. Our factories continue to produce unhindered, our haulers fly without problems even right through the few gate camps, our miners kill rocks without even seeing CAIN pilots, our mission runners continue to work for the Republic almost undisturbed, and... oh, wait, one change. Our combat pilots get some training when they feel like it. Thanks for that.
But this thread is not about the inability of CAIN to hurt Electus Matari in any significant way. It is about people freed and returned home. That is important.
Keep up the fight, CAIN.
You will achieve nothing.
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Evanda Char
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.09.27 19:50:00 -
[34]
Have to agree that isk damage is a very poor way to measure success, especially when one side is fighting in the hub of their own industrial powerbase and the other is pulling from a reserve of equipment they moved, or buying from their enemies.
It's about sustainability, and morale.
Our will is not even close to breaking, our crews are volunteers, and as for sustainability, we're absolutely fine.
-Eva-
Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time |
Lux Simian
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Posted - 2007.09.27 19:51:00 -
[35]
I believe our plan was to engage the enemy forces and cause maximum losses. Which would mean our plan was entirely successful. Of course you managed to capture that safe spot, so maybe that was your plan - Good Win CAIN, you totally own that tiny point in space. Definately worth the cost.
I hope it doesn't upset your plan that whilst travelling to said busted safe spot, I created a new one. Or that we were waiting for you to come out of dock range.
I believe the term is Pyhric Victory? Or should that be a Pie Wreck Victory... 
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WraithFire
Cassandra's Light
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.27 20:04:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 27/09/2007 07:58:33
Ladies, gentlemen --
this was just one battle in a long war, even if it was one that at least I personally enjoyed more than the rest of them so far put together. Making too much out of it in either direction is beneath us all.
I thank the GURIS representative for their kind act, but note that freeing slaves does not excuse criminal acts of violence in Republic space, and that issue is still between us and unsettled.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
as a private person
Uncompromising as ever. That kind of feisty resolve will forever be loved by INFOD. 
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Carebears? Where?
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.09.27 20:24:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Or do you openly admit that you are in the Republic space not to bother EM, but as an open attack against the Republic in general? Cause that might change matters.
Think very hard before attempting a response to this accusation, murderers of Dr. Ullia Hnolku.
Congratulations to Electus Matari for what strikes me as a solid victory, both in terms of the damage inflicted to your foes and to the joy brought to our people at the release of our kin.
--
Becq Starforged
proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services
At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today! |
Hakarra Blackwing
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.27 21:11:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Hakarra Blackwing on 27/09/2007 21:16:29
Forgive the intrusion, I shall be brief.
This is an interesting topic as always. Perhaps I am a bit old fashioned, however service in the Federal Navy has given me a fairly basic concept of war.
On the topic of war, what ever the root cause that began the war may be, is not the concept the same? The complete and total annihilation of the enemies forces until they are unable or unwilling to continue the fight.
I was not there to witness this battle, as much as I would have liked to been, however I gather the battle was focused on a point in space whose only significant value is as a staging area. It would seem to me then, that it was a perfect place for two enemy fleets to engage each other without interference from those who would attempt to suppress such actions.
From what has been stated here, this was a skirmish of a larger, and apparently dragging war.
Electus Matari seemed to have been driven back from this little skirmish. Though if what was stated here is true, their losses compared to the losses of the Caldari Navy Independent Reserve are quite unequal. I do not refer to the ISK value of the ships lost on both sides, but their direct ability to effect a large scale battle.
Yes, Electus Matari lost more than a few cruisers and withdrew from the engagement, however their enemy lost a few very vital ships. Even though CAIN may have held the field of battle and claimed a tactical victory, their losses here may come back to haunt them in future battles.
I find the bickering over who "won" each and every little battle to be pointless. Granted some tactical victories can turn the tide of war, however claiming victory of an overall war will ultimately depend on which side surrenders or is annihilated first.
Regards,
Hakarra Blackwing
[[Edit - Spelling]]
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Ryan Darkwolf
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.09.27 21:49:00 -
[39]
CAIN...as I see it, although you "held space" you still lost.
Electus Matari, although having greater numbers, had a technological disadvantage. Your command ships should have been able to hold the fire of their cruisers. Not only that, but you should have been able to take the fleet out.
I have seen a single Harbinger class battle cruiser, with no support take out a gang consisting of 2 battle cruisers and 4 cruisers...and you are telling me that your command ships, along with whatever other advanced ships you had at the time could not handle tech 1 cruisers?
It is a disgrace...use the excuse of "we won because we held onto this space"...I am sure the rest of your corpmates feel the same way about the loss of their crew and ships.
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FREE COOKIES and (>^.(>O.O)> HERE |
Evanda Char
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.09.28 05:29:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Evanda Char on 28/09/2007 05:34:08
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
I am, of course, assuming that CAIN is being honest when they say that their invasion of Republic territory and war with a Republican paramilitary was predicated by an attack on their own ships in Tannolen. Then again, it wouldn't be the first time CAIN went to war over a flimsy pretext.
Mr Ledoux, were you not there in Tannolen with your previous asociates in Star Fraction? Let me see if I can find the thread about it.
(That's not, by the way, intended as any form of smacktalk - I just didn't write down which SF pilots were in the system.)
That said, our refusal to pay a ransom of 50 million isk following that incident is the more direct reason for the war.
Edit: Here it is!
-Eva-
Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time |
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Naughty People
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2007.09.28 06:54:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Evanda Char
Mr Ledoux, were you not there in Tannolen with your previous asociates in Star Fraction? Let me see if I can find the thread about it.
I certainly was, in command of the Rohk-class battleship "Bloodstained Moloch." I recall being very put out with you for getting all the fun for yourselves. I was also put out with Melarius Torvil for showing himself to be as big a fool as the people he fights. All it all, it was a bad night.
Quote:
(That's not, by the way, intended as any form of smacktalk - I just didn't write down which SF pilots were in the system.)
There certainly were a lot of us, and I always was just one among equals there.
Quote:
That said, our refusal to pay a ransom of 50 million isk following that incident is the more direct reason for the war.
And here I thought it was because CAIN's leadership can't grasp the concept of "CAIN has been a valid target for Electus Matari for two years, whether they knew about it or not." Then again, I thought the Gallente-Caldari war was about freedom ... at the time.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.09.28 08:43:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 28/09/2007 08:43:55
Quote:
This war will [end?] when either Electus Matari or CAIN can no longer bear to sustain their losses.
That, or when there is a diplomatic solution.
The hope is not that great as is, of course, as CAIN's current demands are impossible to meet -- not the 50 million isk which we surely would have to spare, but the accompanying apology for defending a Republic Security Services station against foreign paramilitaries when requested to do so. There is no way in this universe that Electus Matari as a Republic loyalist organization can set that kind of a precedence. We cannot in any way imply we would not fully approve of such operations and gladly engage in such again should -- gods and ancestors keep us from it -- need arise.
But little hope does not mean no hope. Maybe CAIN will with time see how unreasonable such a request is -- they claim to be, after all, State loyalists themselves, so they should understand our position -- and simply pull back the war declaration. Or maybe something else unexpected will happen, allowing for a cease-fire and peaceful withdrawal.
For myself personally, a peaceful solution is always desirable for destruction of lives and resources, so you can rest assured that as a diplomat I will do my outmost best to achieve a solution, should CAIN show any willingness to that direction.
Meanwhile, no, I am not running out of ships.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Diplomat, Gradient / EM
--
Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Naughty People
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2007.09.28 08:49:00 -
[43]
Pride is definitely my favorite sin. Unless it's avarice. Wrath and lust take turns on third place, depending on my mood. Ah, so many to choose from. I'm sure you get my point, anyway.
_
Originally by: CCP Prism X
This topic is so full of fail >.<
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Verone
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.28 12:59:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
Pride is definitely my favorite sin.
Being Gallente, I tend to disagree there. Lust, definatley...
Hmmm... Pride isn't too far behind though, I can think of a couple of things that make me real proud.
>>> TRIBUTE TO A FALLEN WINGMAN <<<
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Izo Azlion
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.28 13:27:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Verone
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
Pride is definitely my favorite sin.
Being Gallente, I tend to disagree there. Lust, definatley...
Hmmm... Pride isn't too far behind though, I can think of a couple of things that make me real proud.
Oh Ethan, I'm so glad.
*A quiet chuckle can be heard behind the message*
I suppose for me, it would be achievement. Which, in a way, is pride.
Izo Azlion.
---
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Pliskkenn
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.28 14:43:00 -
[46]
I would argue Wrath before Pride. Its good to indulge in a personal quest of Hatred or Vengence.
---
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.09.28 23:05:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 28/09/2007 08:43:55
Quote:
This war will [end?] when either Electus Matari or CAIN can no longer bear to sustain their losses.
That, or when there is a diplomatic solution.
I propose the following peace terms (to be ratified by both parties):
* Electus Matari and CAIN to mutually cease hostilities against each other.
* Electus Matari and CAIN to each instruct their members to treat members of the other organization as neutrals.
* 50m isk reparations to be paid to CAIN for the loss of the ship that triggered this fight.
* Dr. Ullia Hnolku to be returned, safe and sound, along with any notes or other materials lost when his ship was destroyed in the incident that prompted Electus Matari to fire on the CAIN ship previously mentioned.
I feel this is an equitable arrangement for all involved, and addresses the concerns of both sides. Further, I will provide the 50m isk reparations, should the other requirements be met by both sides.
Who wishes to be the first to sign this accord?
--
Becq Starforged
proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services
At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today! |
Evanda Char
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.09.29 04:54:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Becq Starforged
* Dr. Ullia Hnolku to be returned, safe and sound, along with any notes or other materials lost when his ship was destroyed in the incident that prompted Electus Matari to fire on the CAIN ship previously mentioned.
I would glad to be the first to sign it, but I'll need clarification on whether CAIN will be expected to bear by themselves the cost of discovering time travel, going back in time two years and not murdering him.
-Eva-
Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time |
Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.09.29 18:48:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Evanda Char
Originally by: Becq Starforged
* Dr. Ullia Hnolku to be returned, safe and sound, along with any notes or other materials lost when his ship was destroyed in the incident that prompted Electus Matari to fire on the CAIN ship previously mentioned.
I would glad to be the first to sign it, but I'll need clarification on whether CAIN will be expected to bear by themselves the cost of discovering time travel, going back in time two years and not murdering him.
Other than the exceptions noted (for example, I volunteered the reparations to CAIN), clearly each party would be responsible for upholding their portion of the treaty requirements.
This is only fair: CAIN should have repayment in full for the losses it sustained leading up to the war; so should the Matari people have returned to us the losses which CAIN inflicted prior to open hostilities.
--
Becq Starforged
proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services
At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today! |
Gaius Kador
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.30 17:20:00 -
[50]
Allready discussing terms of surrender amongst yourselves? Take a hint chimps, CAIN is not going to reply on here.
Keeping the thread going by yourselves for an entire page is quite the feat, especially considering your base nature.
Then again, that might just have been what kept you going...
Never underestimate the need to bongo.
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