Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
TDRC Holding
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 01:33:00 -
[1]
Metagaming is at an all time high, and has suck to an all time low. My alt corp with only 15 members was recently wardecced. My corp planned an op to move the majority of its assets to another system, away from the area where said deccing corp operated. We were all on the corp vent, and nobody that wasnt in the corp was involved.
Waiting at the gate to ur new home a 10 man wartarget gang was waiting for us. We have operated in this area for awhile and have never seen any of the hostiles even within 5 jumps. We lost the scout in a rifter, and I told the guys in haulers align to the system next door, which has another gate leading into the target system. I was going to go around the hostiles who were camping the incoming, i send a scout in and no hostiles are reported. I warped the gang and we held at the gate for a few moments. When i order the gang to jump local spike with 10 hostiles immediatly. Before there were no other guys but corpmates in system. And before we can warpwe have hostile interceptors scramming us, we lost 2 fully packed itty5's before the rest of us got away.
And today every place we have held a corp op has had hostiles, making it utterly impossible to do things as a corp. My players can operate solo wiothout trouble, and we will never see a hostile, until we try to use corp chat, or our vent to form up. Once an op is announced the hostile appear repidly and prevent us from doing anything.
I want to play the game for what it is, i dont mind the wardec, its the fact that someone will use metagaming tactics such as putting one of thier chars in our corp in order to kill a few carebears.
I think CCP should try to curb this as much as possible. I think that most of this nonsense could be stopped if CCP would implement in-game tools for spying, and in exchange for these also include some tools that would monitor multiple accounts or connections from the same ip address. Something to the effect that if one of your corpmates logs on a character on a different account that is red to you you will have some way of knowing about it.
|
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 01:35:00 -
[2]
And while they at it. let us know who puts the bounties on us
Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking
Originally by: TheDagda *click* For the love of the jovians stops necroing
|
Akane Miyamoto
Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 01:35:00 -
[3]
It really is mostly your fault that you let intel leak to your wartargets you know
---------------
The Miyamotos, Chaper #1
|
Cyberflayer
Vagabonds Unincorporated
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 01:38:00 -
[4]
Stop the communists! - Moto's Sig
|
TDRC Holding
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 01:40:00 -
[5]
Edited by: TDRC Holding on 03/10/2007 01:41:05
Originally by: Akane Miyamoto It really is mostly your fault that you let intel leak to your wartargets you know
Well Thats why i said there should be 2 parts of it, part 1 should be for CCP to introduce in game resources for spying. And then we can counter that with an in game method.
But using multiple accounts and stuff is just utter crap, and i can bet you that most of this comes from 1 joker who has 2 accounts on the same pc, and just logs on to the second account
It would be nice if you could do investigations on your corpmates and see who they have been mailing/convoing, and get some other espionage tools. Instead of the 1 joker with 2 accounts.
Make it take 2 people to spy, and make it so it controlled by game mechanics CCP!
|
Arana Tellen
Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 01:41:00 -
[6]
Vet the chars named "Altspy0004"? Or maybe flush out the spy, or try thinking rather than whining to CCP to hand everything to you on a plate ---------------------------------
Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 800mhh 4-4-4-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home. |
Haerana
The Republican Guard The Sundering
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 01:43:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Haerana on 03/10/2007 01:45:12 getting people into enemy corps is apart of eve. its called gathering intelligence. or spying.
If you really want to keep things secure only use gang chat when discussing stuff in an op and make sure only gang members on the op are in the gang. the same with vent usage. Make seperate channels for gangs and kick out anybody in the channel who isnt in the gang.
if things still keep happening then start looking at gang members who could be spies. etc. in small corps its only a matter of time of whittling it down to find out who it is.
The dieing sounds more like your fault than anybody elses. simple things to take note of. and if you thought you had a leak then trying to get in the backdoor was silly. hell even if you didnt its not out of the question they would take a guess about it and got lucky.
Im not trying to flame but your whining about things that make eve what it is. a complex game full of real ***** who use spies and tactics to kill people. and thats 1 of the reasons i love it.
just fyi. i still know people who have dead alts in newb corps that they use to listen in when they are really bored to find out if theres any newb corp groups gonna go out for some fun to make things interesting for them. now that i see as pretty lame. its much better when you befriend a bunch of people in the newb corp to spy and give you intel on those 1s who spend years in them! they are much more fun to track down an fight :D
|
Thanos Draicon
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 01:43:00 -
[8]
Hate to say it man, but it's no one's fault but your own. Any means you use to communicate, in-game chat, corp-mail, external forums, or ventrillo/teamspeak, maintaining security is your responsibility and not CCPs. What you can do to minimize the effect the security compromise has: -Find a member or two you trust and use them to weed out the spy (specifics of this I'll leave up to you, but it can be done) -Create a private channel for your scouts and you (the FC) and make sure no one else knows where you're going until you tell them to align -Use bait to draw the enemy out and determine their source of intelligence
That being said, it sounds like you, as an FC, handled yourself very well given the fact that your security was compromised and you pulled the rest of the members through with relatively small losses. Adapt and overcome, seek friends if you have to, hire mercs if you have to.
Regarding out-of-game means to assure that your corp members are who they say they are and not a pirate alt - that's your responsibility, not CCPs. --------------- Originally by: CCP Prism X Hey I have an idea: "Let's not endure any more of your spam for the weekend!" Enjoy your time away from our forums.
|
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Frontier Trade League
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 02:16:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Mecinia Lua on 03/10/2007 02:18:08 Sorry to hear about your troubles :(.
Not much CCP will do.
However you might have some luck finding the spy. Depending on how good they are.
The first clue is to try to watch corp chat or the vent server. See if someone is just sitting there. They might be very quiet, more monitoring than anything. That's a possible suspect. Write down their name.
Another thing to do is check to see who joined the corp within the last week or two before the war started. Those people will be suspects too.
How you narrow down the suspect is a bit tricky and I'll leave those details to you just trying to get you some useful starting info.
Almost forgot. Since your at war then you need to adjust your ship fittings. Industrials should have WCS and IS in lows, no extra cargo extenders. Yes I know you carry less but you can survive a lot better.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts. |
GenderBender
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 02:21:00 -
[10]
The age old trick of dispersing different information to different people can work wonders. Cleverly inserting a "don't tell anyone else, but we're doing this" can help narrow things down quite a bit.
|
|
Akira Zendragon
Eve University Ivy League
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 02:30:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Akira Zendragon on 03/10/2007 02:30:53 I think the current level of metagaming can get pretty lame sometimes, especially when it involves hacking of OOG forums and similar stuff. But that's not the case here, so moving on...
I'd like to see in-game mechanisms for espionage and counter-espionage, actually... since just about anything in the game has some form of counter, and espionage is a big part of the game (even if the mechanics are not really there *in game*). The current lack of mechanics pretty much implicates some form of metagaming, and in some situations (like very large corps, for instance) it can be pretty much impossible to find the spy.
As to the OPs situation... it's a pretty small corp, so it shouldn't be too hard to find the spy with some carefully orchestrated bait/misinformation/etc... I'd suggest a canary trap and some bait.
edit: canary trap being just what the previous poster suggested... :) |
Marcus Xavier
Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 02:38:00 -
[12]
I suggest maintaining a secret temporary base far from your home base that contains all the necessary goodies needed to keep the corp running at least a few weeks. If you run into a similar situation, you merely need to activate the base (rent an office) and operate on a "yellow" alert status until the wardec expires. Then, and only then, should you move your assets from your former home. If you need to move anything during a wardec, you should consider hauling using a blockade runner, covert ops, or interceptor. Of course, I'm assuming that you're operating in either low-sec or high-sec.
If you don't play their game, they'll get bored and bully someone else. ---------------- Mutatis Mutandis |
Siege
Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 02:45:00 -
[13]
So, you want to stop metagaming.... by instituting more metagaming tactics such as a system to monitor other players account and IP usage?
Interesting concept.
|
Xaldor
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 02:49:00 -
[14]
Espionage is a part of the game, you should not look for easy fixes to a part of the game which has a lot of appeal, that is the player interaction.
You obviously have disloyal people in your corp, rather than ask for glowing neon signs to the guilty party you should be focusing your efforts on flushing out the rat.
You have to be cunning but you can flush out the dirty rats. People are generally stupid and greedy and will make mistakes. You can test the loyalty of your corp members by giving them the opportunity to betray themselves. If you are smart enough you will create the opportunity for the guilty party to expose themselves. If they hit "every" operation then you break it down into smaller groups and find out which groups have the leak then you can focus on weeding out the rat from the smaller group.
You have to go through the process of elimination, it should be fairly easy to find out the majority of the corp members are loyal. Once you have your loyal base you can at least get the majority of your operation going smoothly again.
|
William Hayes
Caldari Hayes Enterprises
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 03:40:00 -
[15]
I'm not sure exactly what you want the former Soviet Union to do about this problem...
In other news, CCP has joined forces with the NSA and GCHQ to intercept any and all communication between players of EVE Online to prevent people from gaining an unfair advantage over other players who refuse to utilize those social skills typically taught in kindergarten.
|
Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 04:23:00 -
[16]
How is RA supposed to help you?
Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts |
Jacob Mei
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 04:42:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Jacob Mei on 03/10/2007 04:44:55 This sort of thing has existed long before CCP was even formed in game clans that fought with each other in multi player games like quake or age of empires and so forth. Clan A injects Spy B into Clan C to gather intel. In short, so long as the web offers complete and total obscurity, you will have spies.
Best thing you can do is decentralize your information and make friends with other corps who will help you out in times of need or arrange a deal with a merc corp to help fight for you. You would be surprised how fast a griefing corp changes their tune when suddenly its no longer inexperienced players they are dealing with, but professonal pvpers who are getting paid for the kill mails.
If you are worried about ingame:
Set a XP level requirement Suspect all who apply blindly Dont accept anyone under a certain age or has never been in a player corp before
9 times out of 10 btw, the spy is ussually the last person, or second to last person, you brought into the fold.
|
Dimitry Kalashnikov
Dark Tornado Synchr0nicity
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 04:44:00 -
[18]
Metagaming is using out of game tactics for ingame advantage.
Hypothetical example: Lets say this alliance, we'll call them [NOB] is at war with another alliance. They get one of their tech nerds to hack the other alliances vent server during an op to repeatedly crash it. THAT is metagaming.
Placing an alt in your corporation however is using an INGAME tactic to gain an INGAME advantage. I see no problem here. ============================================== Freelancer 2 Petition |
Kazuma Saruwatari
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 04:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dimitry Kalashnikov Placing an alt in your corporation however is using an INGAME tactic to gain an INGAME advantage. I see no problem here.
Its still edging into "metagaming", especially if said alt is on a different account.
Real "metagaming" would involve out-of-game actions to get ingame results, like, say, hacking your corp's TS/Vent and DDoSing it to heck right before a planned op...
...or hacking a FC's PC to render it inoperable.
Both CCP and the EULA are hazy when it comes to both areas, considering that both would not of happened if it were not connected to EVE, and yet CCP has no coverage for stuff out of EVE Online.
But, it still affects the game itself, which is where the line gets really blurry. -
Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online |
codex09
Minmatar Cold-Fury Southern Cross Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 05:02:00 -
[20]
Ok having spies in corps/alliances is all a part of EVE as it is in any game that involves war between 2 or more parties. It is the same in RL only the spies have more to lose if they are caught!
Now you ask CCP to do something about it, exactly what can they do about it other than not allowing a person to have more than 1 account. That will never happen and it is a good thing it will never happen (I don't have 2 accounts either, I only have 1)
Ok now the subject comes down to what YOU can do about spies in your corp. It shouldn't/wouldn't be too hardto flush the spy out it's just a matter of you using your head to work out a way of being shift enough to trick the spy.
you could do something like this.
a)> Go through each person in your corp one at a time and do things with them that would be worth their while in letting the enemy know. (eg. tell them you need them to come with you while you move somethig that is worth a lot of ISK) (this is just an example and although it might work you would need to cutomise it to your corp)
b)> try creating a spy of your own and get it into the enemy corp, then try to find out what you need to know without making yourself known.
there are a lot of ways to uncover spies especially in small corps, it is much much harder in big corps/alliances due to the numbers of people involved but it can be done it just takes a lot more work, time and effort.
Oh also I think your idea of what metagaming is might be a little bit different to what it actually is. Either way try working this sort of thing out yourself rather than calling on CCP to make changes, because if they make changes it is usually a change that doesn't make many people at all very happy. Yes I can understand that having a spy in your corp can be very frustrating but it is all a part of the game when it all comes down to it.
Old Enough To Know Better,Yet Young Enough to Still Learn?! In Space NO-ONE Can Hear You Scream!,BUT on the Forums People CAN see your Whines Even though NO-ONE Cares!?! |
|
Redpants
Gallente Dead Eagle North Star Confederation
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 05:04:00 -
[21]
I agree with you OP. This Soviet metagaming is out of control. Apparently clear to the both of us, the individuals who infiltrated your Carebear alliance are KGB operatives.
I do believe the devs should implement the tools neccesary to combat this in game threat against capitalism at all costs. We've all seen Red Dawn.
Now that you have brought this Red threat to light, I think a similar situation in game must be nerfed to stop the NSDAP. More on that later...
"My once immaculate white pants are now stained from the weak and innocent. I don't wear red." |
Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 05:52:00 -
[22]
Gee, you've been decced, and you're moving tons of material in free to shoot ships. Not the brightest, but at least you did take precautions that should have worked if not for the alt spy/lookout. Simple solution: Use alts to haul (not in any decced corp) and use precautions to protect those haulers. Yes, this is more meta-gaming, but it's a way to counter the logonski trap.
Since you have a spy, talk quietly with the CEO and set up the haul. I would not recommend letting the rest of the corp in on this until the hauling is done. (and don't mention who did the haul either if you'd like to use that method again)
Oh, and since you know your spy is calling in the enemy, see if you can't arrange some mercs to come round and play with your wartargets at the op site. _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
Ilvan
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 06:30:00 -
[23]
'Metagaming' is pretty much required for any sort of espionage.
There's no in-game way to intercept corp comms. There's no in-game way to mask your identity or employment history.
Vent/TS and external forums are pure metagaming and can only be countered by - you guessed it - metagaming.
So stop whining and be more choosy when it comes to hiring people.
|
General Apocalypse
Amarr The Merchant Marines
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 06:53:00 -
[24]
Hire an internal security guy . He'll prolly take care of your corp in 1h max
Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz
Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
|
Anhtarus
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 07:17:00 -
[25]
If you know there is a spy, then why not lay a trap within a trap? make use of this knowledge.
There are sooo many imaginative ways to turn the table for the traitor(s). Did the British/Americans/Germans cry foul when spys operated within their officer corps during World War 2?
There have been suggestions of using Mercs so why not setup a trap using hired help? An ambush is not an ambush if you are expecting the enemy to be waiting.
Me thinks you need to go read some more spy books on espionage and counter espionage....
|
Haks'he Lirky
Dominion Imperium
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 07:25:00 -
[26]
errrrrr
How is having a spy in your ingame corp metagaming?
Infiltration and spying is within and always has been within the defined ruleset of eve, hence it's not metagaming.
|
SoftRevolution
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 07:30:00 -
[27]
Edited by: SoftRevolution on 03/10/2007 07:32:36 Assume any prospective new member is an alt. If they claim to be new see if their general competence and knowledge level tally with how old their character is supposed to be. If they claim to have been around for a while... well, ideally someone you know will know them. Even then I wouldn't "trust" them for a while.
Don't give out details about your operations in obviously insecure channels. Like your open to everyone forum channels. Have a separate officer forum. I'd probably have it somewhere else entirely. The less people you tell about stuff the better. "Three may keep a Secret, if two of them are dead." and all that.
Rotate vent / TS password every few days or after you've had a guest on the server. More often if it's a shared server.
I would give you some suggestions for rooting out your spy but who knows who is listening - note you must do this in a reasonable timeframe because not being able to trust your command structure is damage in and of itself.
|
Ubad
Minmatar Bandits Are Doomed
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 08:05:00 -
[28]
I can see two problems straight away with the "Make a tool that tells me if someone logs on another account"
1. What if you have two accounts and want to play them totally separately? I do this and neither corp i'm in needs to know the other characters name. This character lives in empire with a few close friends the other is in 0.0 space.
This character only runs missions and enjoys the carefree life of empire, let's say a WT of the corp my other character is in spots me is it far that they know they are at war with my other character? I would only know who they are if I set this guy's corp standings to negitive for ALL WT from the other corp.
2. It won't stop anything the spy only needs to be on the character that is in your corp, they could just use a custom chat channel to tell the WT where you are. Unless you want to watch there conversations as well?
|
Kessiaan
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 08:16:00 -
[29]
Stay in the NPC corp if you don't want to deal with wardecs and what goes with them.
Alternately, you could have used better security practices - tell everyone you're doing a hauling op but not to where, telling them you're hauling somewhere and then stop short and have trusted members haul the rest of the way (and to a different system), stagger your haulers so people are only hauling one at a time, hire a merc corp to run an escort, blah blah blah.
|
Wacoede
Amarr Allied Combat Team Endless Horizon
|
Posted - 2007.10.03 08:16:00 -
[30]
an idea for you to flush out the spy is to find a few you know you can trust then go and watch Miami Vice (The new one) and watch it all very carefully you'll soon understand what you need (hopefully)
sorry I cant be more help but as has been stated: don't know who is watching
Eve Mail me and I can give you more details
An Idea about Bounties Version 2 |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |