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Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.04 07:32:00 -
[1]
PLEASE please please please don't post another forum post about macros. The people you should be talking to are ingame in the macrointel channel.
Macrointel is a free anti-macro, anti-farmer service provided to you by volunteers in the community such as Camaro, Mongwen, Yorlock, myself, etc, etc.
1. The GM and Dev team DO care. It's just that it's so effing hard to get to them all. Let's all be honest here, macros/farming teams are just like roaches. They have already created the next 3 generations by the time you kill off the first. 2. The best thing you can do to put a dent in their operation is to stalk them and steal from them. Technically, since you've gone from macro/farmer gained ore/ice/what have you to items obtained by piracy through a legitimate game mechanic (stealing)- the loot is yours if you feel right to keep it, but you probably shouldn't. 3. Suicide gank them. If you don't want to, I'd be more than happy to do it for you. 4. No one is going to read your post about macros. Well, a few people will. I know I can't read them all and whatever God I've decided to believe in this week knows I wont. Chances are, people will say "oh GAWD. Another macro post? NEXT" 5. Macrointel, Macrointel, Macrointel. stolen ore/donated isk/other incomes go to funding this "free service" to you. It's free in that you can join the channel and someone will check it out for you at no cost to you and you can go on and play your game. 6. It's still more about keeping the forums clean from 21097102706120560213975120974098 posts a day about macros. Wrangler is a person too. Don't you know he has to READ all this crap??? 7. The mods hate you for posting macro whines. They just aren't going to say it to you. The first thing they say when they see a post with the word "macro" in it is "owhforcryingout... god... what the hell.... gah another one? DAMN IT! What is wrong with these ******s?" and NOT: "OH HOLY CRAP! SEND GMS OUT TO MITSOLEN IN NYXES! WE GOT A LIVE ONE!" 8. Stop saying that the Devs don't care or that they make too much money out of the deal and whatnot. Just stop. The Devs are trying to build the game. Though they don't directly care about FFLJQ of Republic Military School, they care about the methods in which he uses to be able to break the rules and developing a way to stop it in the future. It's all about big picture. 9. It's the GM's who care about macros. They would LOVE to go investigate the MOST LIKELY LEGIT player you just reported, but CHRIST ALMIGHTY, they have a stack of reimbursements to go through. Macros are a low priority because there are bigger problems to be taken care of at that moment.
10. JUST JOIN MACROINTEL AND TELL US WHO IT IS. We'll check it out!
Can we PLEASE sticky this for a week?
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Overd0ze
Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.04 08:00:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Overd0ze on 04/10/2007 07:59:52 Wall of text
But its a good thing. I read the forums at work and tents to get boring with 900 posts about the same thing every day :S
Good service
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.04 08:31:00 -
[3]
OK, one of the best post about macro I have seen. Worth a little bump so maybe we will not see another ten of them before midnight.
I would only really like to see people learning to recognize macros from farmers and learning that the EULA violation is selling isk or using macros, not farming veldspater for 6 hours straight while your main is doing other things.
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Auron Shadowbane
Teeth Of The Hydra R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.04 09:38:00 -
[4]
*friendly bump*
do something other than whine and kill emm
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Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:46:00 -
[5]
:)
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Phyrr
Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:19:00 -
[6]
True dat
The odds on me being here are rather slim evolutionary speaking, yet in the infinite bounds of probability my being here is a certainty. |
Stefx
Gallente Moons of Pluto
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:42:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Snake Doctor Edited by: Snake Doctor on 04/10/2007 16:42:57 PLEASE please please please don't post another forum post about macros.
Did you mean thread?
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Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.05 02:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Stefx
Originally by: Snake Doctor Edited by: Snake Doctor on 04/10/2007 16:42:57 PLEASE please please please don't post another forum post about macros.
Did you mean thread?
Dang. I suppose I did...
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2007.10.05 03:40:00 -
[9]
Bumping this. . . probably could use some glue. . .
I swear I make at least 1 post a week defending legitimate NPC corp barge miners' right to exist. . . -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.05 04:41:00 -
[10]
...ahem....
Rifter Flight Manual! |
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Seriphos
Omega Mining Industrials
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Posted - 2007.10.05 16:39:00 -
[11]
Totally.
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000Hunter000
Gallente Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.10.05 16:49:00 -
[12]
I will say a prayer to my deity of choice so he gives u his blessing and that u may pop lots of macroers/sweatshoppers. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
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Xaldor
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Posted - 2007.10.05 16:54:00 -
[13]
lol so if someone annoys me I can just label them as a macroer and someone will suicide gank them? I'd hope you get some proof before you go all vigilante on someone. :P
How can someone tell that someone else is macroing? When I mine ice it is a long and boring process and I surf the web between cycles, go make coffee, etc. I am going to get paranoid that the thought police might be after me. :P
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Boomershoot
Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.
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Posted - 2007.10.05 17:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Xaldor lol so if someone annoys me I can just label them as a macroer and someone will suicide gank them? I'd hope you get some proof before you go all vigilante on someone. :P
How can someone tell that someone else is macroing? When I mine ice it is a long and boring process and I surf the web between cycles, go make coffee, etc. I am going to get paranoid that the thought police might be after me. :P
point on this. my alt is also a miner (and during the full-moon nights, it becomes a minecan stealer) and it would be a problem that when i mine ice someone from the macrointel channel get the info that i am a macroer and suicide gank him :\
but i'm sure they get proof before acting...maybe?
may use some glue, after all ----------------------------------------------- Forum Warfare - Rank (4) - Level V Forum Warfare Specialist - Rank (9) - Level III Armor Flame Compensation - Rank (5) - Level IV |
Sgt Napalm
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.05 17:02:00 -
[15]
/signed
Good group
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Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.05 17:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Xaldor lol so if someone annoys me I can just label them as a macroer and someone will suicide gank them? I'd hope you get some proof before you go all vigilante on someone. :P
How can someone tell that someone else is macroing? When I mine ice it is a long and boring process and I surf the web between cycles, go make coffee, etc. I am going to get paranoid that the thought police might be after me. :P
Ahh-- see- That's the catch. One of the reason CCP takes so long to identify these people is because of just that- It takes so long.
It's not like reporting them = instant ganking. There's a lot of planning, observation, and, well, "stalkering" (Not stalking) that goes into it. Most of us are familiar with the common macros/farmers and we keep lists. If someone reported is not on a list, we will need to evaluate them.
The good news- If you seem even REMOTELY legit, we leave you alone. If I can time your trips back and forth to the station with a stopwatch to the exact second per cycle every time, you're probably going to be evaluated further.
Most common signs of macro/farmer: No bio. Noob corp. New-ish characters. Gibberish name. No autotarget. Inability to answer attempts at communication. Attempts at communication cause your ship to drift aimlessly... Etc. Just avoid those things and you're probably in the green.
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.05 17:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Boomershoot
but i'm sure they get proof before acting...maybe?
may use some glue, after all
I can assure you that we are very strict about criteria before anyone is labeled anything. It usually takes days to identify someone who can be considered even *most likely* macroing or farming.
Macros are simply against the rules. You can pretty much abuse them as much as you like. Farmers, however, are not explicitly against the rules, but they are not fooling anyone. We know what they're doing with their isk and it IS against the rules. Being online 23/7 is a sure-fire way to get yourself spotted as someone who MAY meet the criteria.
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Xaldor
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Posted - 2007.10.05 17:13:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Snake Doctor
Originally by: Boomershoot
but i'm sure they get proof before acting...maybe?
may use some glue, after all
I can assure you that we are very strict about criteria before anyone is labeled anything. It usually takes days to identify someone who can be considered even *most likely* macroing or farming.
Macros are simply against the rules. You can pretty much abuse them as much as you like. Farmers, however, are not explicitly against the rules, but they are not fooling anyone. We know what they're doing with their isk and it IS against the rules. Being online 23/7 is a sure-fire way to get yourself spotted as someone who MAY meet the criteria.
I am just curious how anyone other than CCP can know for sure either way? They can track bots by command patterns, they are too precise to be human players. How as a player group would you "police" it? I am just curious how you go about it?
I think it is a good initiative, I have been involved in similar things in other games but in those it is a lot easier to tell a bot from a real player. EVE is a bit different, you also have a lot of people that don't speak English playing on the one server, which is not as common in other games.
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Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.05 17:51:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Xaldor
I am just curious how anyone other than CCP can know for sure either way? They can track bots by command patterns, they are too precise to be human players. How as a player group would you "police" it? I am just curious how you go about it?
I think it is a good initiative, I have been involved in similar things in other games but in those it is a lot easier to tell a bot from a real player. EVE is a bit different, you also have a lot of people that don't speak English playing on the one server, which is not as common in other games.
Therein lies the problem: CCP has said in the past that the reason it's so hard to track them is because they don't have any sort of heuristics built in. They can't actually know for sure.
(Continues in reply)
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.05 17:52:00 -
[20]
There are a lot of misconceptions about these players and even the EVE Engine. To understand this, there are some bare minimum facts to know about EVE and said group:
*As far as I (and others) can tell, the EVE engine does not and will not lend itsself to hooks that actual computer operated [Read: AI on any level] bots can use. They are not bots, but simple repeatable macros. Which brings me to the next point about that:
*The only option these accounts are left with is to use a macro, or simulated mouse and keystrokes on a programmed path. Since mining is a relatively simple task, an average macro is easy to set up. It takes about 6 minutes to set up and will run forever if you set it up to do so. The programs you're (!!!not!!!) buying on Ebay and Tault and whatever else are just this. It's a script (or collection of scripts/script generators) that makes you put windows in certain places and makes clicks to them as if you were playing a mining cycle. There is nothing dynamic about it, except for some OCR, limited to looking at colors of certain things on the screen. Even the OCR doesn't work very well. All of the movements these programs provide are preprogrammed and very simple. It's not actually playing the game for you, just repeating itsself over and over. On top of this, chances are it's stealing your password, items, or isk as well.
*Farmers are groups of actual people who are NOT ALLOWED to communicate with the player base. They sit on pcs in some small room somewhere and bring in ISK/LP/Items all day because there are people out there who buy it. Repeated attempts at communication usually end with the entire group logging off at the same time and then returning some time later. When mining, they manage to cluster around a can, and have a hauler to come pick it up when it's full. Sometimes you may get a boss on the line and he will BEG you to leave him alone. Some of these groups admit to farming. Find "Amarr Rose" ingame or "Goole Men" and watch them for a while. Rose is a farmer, while Goole Men is a macro (with some very limited legitimate play involved).
*Mission farmers are also pretty lame. They run level 4's all day so they can sell you your nice shiny CNRs. Most of them fly Ravens and missile spam to death, but are easy to pop if you know how to find them. You can usually inturrupt their missions and steal their loot without them shooting at you. Most of them are simply not allowed to risk any sort of loss. I believe Arkad popped a Raven in his Astarte last night. It was no doubt fitted with decent launchers and fittings. That type of loss is usually *unacceptable*. They hardly EVER fire at you, but will almost always target you.
*Anywhere you find Ice, you're damned well going to find both groups.
*"Good" macros mine ore simply because they can usually do it without being noticed. Without telling you the process of which to make your own (which is surely a TOS violation), a "good" macro has a set of bookmarks that somehow rotate. They fly a smaller ship or barge back and forth and dump at the station when their hold is full. One cycle takes about 7 mintues, and can probably mine up 134k of various ores in 6 hours with an Osprey. These are usually casual players looking to make some cash on the side. They are also the EASIEST to spot. They are back and forth to their bookmarks, rotated or not, over and over with the same interval and can run 23/7 with very little interaction. They are the easiest to screw up, too. If you can catch one outside a station or returning to a station, bump them HARD. They have a limited amount of leeway in their script, so if you mess it up enough, the window positions don't match up and they end up with all kinds of errors on the screen. Usually repeated bumping messes them up so severely that you put their macro so far off track that it becomes useless.
Rifter Flight Manual! |
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Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.05 17:53:00 -
[21]
So there's a little insight. I can't really think of anything else at the moment, but I'm sure it will come to me. If you see anyone in UCAM, they would also have some insights. Camaro and Mongwen specifically. PHPR Freighter is another one.
:) To us, the only "good" macro is a dead one; to spin a cliche, of course!
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Stakhanov
Katana's Edge
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:08:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Stakhanov on 05/10/2007 18:08:05
Originally by: Xaldor lol so if someone annoys me I can just label them as a macroer and someone will suicide gank them? I'd hope you get some proof before you go all vigilante on someone. :P
Who cares ? Players don't have to follow the GMs' rules of engagement , anyone is free to gank anyone for no reason whatsoever. That's the power of player based macro-hunting , you can kill farming ships on the industrial scale and not worry too much about collateral damage. If you're already a pirate , it makes no difference anyway.
Macrointel isn't enough tbh - what Eve needs is an organization that schedules gatecamps to permanently disrupt lowsec macro haulers.
Originally by: F'nog One does not simply log into Jita.
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Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Stakhanov
Macrointel isn't enough tbh - what Eve needs is an organization that schedules gatecamps to permanently disrupt lowsec macro haulers.
Oh, I totally agree. I'm not above piracy, myself. I just try to stay away from the standard over-the-top empire griefing. Low sec is always fair game.
Btw- hats off to The United for a free 30 jump trip the other day ;)
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Hilabana
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:50:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Snake Doctor Edited by: Snake Doctor on 05/10/2007 02:33:09 Edited by: Snake Doctor on 04/10/2007 16:42:57 PLEASE please please please don't post another thread about macros. The people you should be talking to are ingame in the macrointel channel.
Macrointel is a free anti-macro, anti-farmer service provided to you by volunteers in the community such as Camaro, Mongwen, Yorlock, myself, etc, etc.
1. The GM and Dev team DO care. It's just that it's so effing hard to get to them all. Let's all be honest here, macros/farming teams are just like roaches. They have already created the next 3 generations by the time you kill off the first.
2. The best thing you can do to put a dent in their operation is to stalk them and steal from them. Technically, since you've gone from macro/farmer gained ore/ice/what have you to items obtained by piracy through a legitimate game mechanic (stealing)- the loot is yours if you feel right to keep it, but you probably shouldn't.
3. Suicide gank them. If you don't want to, I'd be more than happy to do it for you. 4. No one is going to read your post about macros. Well, a few people will. I know I can't read them all and whatever God I've decided to believe in this week knows I wont. Chances are, people will say "oh GAWD. Another macro post? NEXT"
5. Macrointel, Macrointel, Macrointel. stolen ore/donated isk/other incomes go to funding this "free service" to you. It's free in that you can join the channel and someone will check it out for you at no cost to you and you can go on and play your game.
6. It's still more about keeping the forums clean from 21097102706120560213975120974098 posts a day about macros. Wrangler is a person too. Don't you know he has to READ all this crap???
7. The mods hate you for posting macro whines. They just aren't going to say it to you. The first thing they say when they see a post with the word "macro" in it is "owhforcryingout... god... what the hell.... gah another one? DAMN IT! What is wrong with these ******s?" and NOT: "OH HOLY CRAP! SEND GMS OUT TO MITSOLEN IN NYXES! WE GOT A LIVE ONE!"
8. Stop saying that the Devs don't care or that they make too much money out of the deal and whatnot. Just stop. The Devs are trying to build the game. Though they don't directly care about FFLJQ of Republic Military School, they care about the methods in which he uses to be able to break the rules and developing a way to stop it in the future. It's all about big picture.
9. It's the GM's who care about macros. They would LOVE to go investigate the MOST LIKELY LEGIT player you just reported, but CHRIST ALMIGHTY, they have a stack of reimbursements to go through. Macros are a low priority because there are bigger problems to be taken care of at that moment.
10. JUST JOIN MACROINTEL AND TELL US WHO IT IS. We'll check it out!
Can we PLEASE sticky this for a week?
Edit: Formatting.
bump great post go get them.
¦=knast CCP st÷=va Fj÷lvi og ISK seljandi |
Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.05 20:25:00 -
[25]
Also: Don't forget to petition it.
Rifter Flight Manual! |
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