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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.04 14:50:00 -
[1]
I am positively certain that I am not alone at being infuriated by CCPÆs templated response to reimbursement petitions.
In order not to get this thread locked, I will paraphrase: ôWeÆre sorry, we canÆt verify your loss was caused by any problem on our side, so it must be your PC/ISP/imaginationö.
Reporting to a Senior GM yields a similar response, with the addition that ôeveryone is treated the sameö.
Personally, I donÆt really care if I get the ships back, honestly. But when they are lost because thereÆs a fleet fight going on and the game canÆt take it as advertized, donÆt tell me you donÆt know whatÆs going on, and most certainly donÆt blame me for it.
So change your response template to something like ôYeah, we know there was a big fleet fight going on at the time, but our policy is that we donÆt replace ships due to lag. Sorry. WeÆre working on itö.
You would then have a lot less pilots as frustrated as I am right now.
PS: yes, I ran to the forums instead of contacting the GMs/Kieron, but tbh I sorta don't have faith in the system right now...
- Stop the Feature Glut: Take the API to the Next Level
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.04 14:56:00 -
[2]
Fukken Signed.
Paradox V2.0 is recruiting! |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.04 14:58:00 -
[3]
You don't have faith in the petition system, so your next choice for reliability and valid responses is...the forums? Hoo boy.
Regarding your opinion regarding fleet battles, I don't think there's any hypocracy going on. If CCP claimed "fight 300 vs. 300 with no lag!" then there would be a valid argument, but it's up to CCP's interpretation to determine what "large fleet battles" mean. In either case I doubt they claim that with the intention of deceiving anyone. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Maltitol
Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.04 14:58:00 -
[4]
/signed
lag has been a feature for awhile now.....
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Twin blade
Minmatar The Triangle
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:02:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Twin blade on 04/10/2007 15:02:57 The sever is more than able to take a big fight of like 150+ ships in 1 fight the problem is we the player's don't do BIG we do sever crashing Mega fleet's or like 300+ that the sever can't take.
If you want to play in big fleet fight's do so but when you take part in the 300+ then you got no right to ***** as its your own failt for trying to get that many ships in 1 grid at a time. !
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Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tarminic If CCP claimed "fight 300 vs. 300 with no lag!" then there would be a valid argument, but it's up to CCP's interpretation to determine what "large fleet battles" mean. In either case I doubt they claim that with the intention of deceiving anyone.
Then have them stop saying there's nothing wrong, and blaming the pilots instead.
Originally by: Twin blade
If you want to play in big fleet fight's do so but when you take part in the 300+ then you got no right to ***** as its your own failt for trying to get that many ships in 1 grid at a time.
I'm pretty sure we are not discussing the same game. So, wrong forum.
- Stop the Feature Glut: Take the API to the Next Level
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Twin blade
Minmatar The Triangle
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:10:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Twin blade on 04/10/2007 15:11:33
Originally by: Andargor theWise
Originally by: Tarminic If CCP claimed "fight 300 vs. 300 with no lag!" then there would be a valid argument, but it's up to CCP's interpretation to determine what "large fleet battles" mean. In either case I doubt they claim that with the intention of deceiving anyone.
Then have them stop saying there's nothing wrong, and blaming the pilots instead.
Originally by: Twin blade
If you want to play in big fleet fight's do so but when you take part in the 300+ then you got no right to ***** as its your own failt for trying to get that many ships in 1 grid at a time.
I'm pretty sure we are not discussing the same game. So, wrong forum.
Oh i am sorry i throught we was talking about eve online given that this is the eve online fourms.
But the point is the sever's can take 150 ships in 1 fight quite well when you think about it but its most likey never going to get to the point where the sever's will take the 300+ fight's with out some insane lag.
The GM's have all ways been fair to me i lost a ship due to lag they gave me it back but i would not botherd to waste there time with hey i lost my ship in a 300+ ship fight i want my ship back since it was to laggy. !
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:13:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Andargor theWise
Originally by: Tarminic If CCP claimed "fight 300 vs. 300 with no lag!" then there would be a valid argument, but it's up to CCP's interpretation to determine what "large fleet battles" mean. In either case I doubt they claim that with the intention of deceiving anyone.
Then have them stop saying there's nothing wrong, and blaming the pilots instead.
True, GMs in petitions could take a hint and acknowledge that the lag is not just graphical/local network lag - but then again, they might not even know it unless you explicitly state is was a massive fleet battle and that all players experienced equally large amounts of lag. I don't think they intend to blame the pilots, they just don't believe CCP is responsible for the loss. Everyone knows that a 600-person battle is incredibly laggy and that participating one carries a high risk of getting your ship blown up ten minutes before you even know it's gone, so their policy is to engage at your own risk. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:18:00 -
[9]
Maybe the only thing CCP need to add to the reply is:
"Our log don't have any registered any difference in lag between you or your side and your enemyes or your enemyes side. So as there wasn't an advantage for any side in the conflict we will not reimburse any ship."
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Frangela
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:19:00 -
[10]
signed
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Maybe the only thing CCP need to add to the reply is:
"Our log don't have any registered any difference in lag between you or your side and your enemyes or your enemyes side. So as there wasn't an advantage for any side in the conflict we will not reimburse any ship."
That would be a very good idea actually. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:30:00 -
[12]
I'm sorry that you feel this way but our logs has to show that you lost your ship due to some error for us to reimburse. When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally, you're put in the same queue and dealt with according to the time your petition was submitted in that queue. The same rules of evidence in our server logs apply for everyone.
Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online
Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ |
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I'm sorry that you feel this way but our logs has to show that you lost your ship due to some error for us to reimburse. When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally, you're put in the same queue and dealt with according to the time your petition was submitted in that queue. The same rules of evidence in our server logs apply for everyone.
Kieron, sorry for putting you on the spot, but is it possible for the GMs to sort through the logs to determine if the player was suffering from very large amounts of lag (in a way that cannot be faked by player-submitted logs)? I think a lot of people would be happier if GMs skirted around the problem less. Even an answer like "it is not our policy to reimburse ships due to lag encountered during large fleet engagements since high amounts of lag is anticipated and expected" might go a long way to please more people. Just my 0.02 ISK. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: My GM Reply Sorry, our logs show that we accidentally had the lag switch set to "On". We are sorry for any inconvenience this has caused. The switch has no been set to off. We hope that this solves any and all future problems for you. Have a nice day.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:36:00 -
[15]
how about no more reimbursement petitions at all? would solve all the whiners problems at once!
no more unsatisfactory responses, just the simple "sorry, we do not reimburse, i can point you to a good belt so you can recoup the losses"
Originally by: Akita T No, it's a trap ! I can tell from some of the modules and from seeing quite a few traps in my time...
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I'm sorry that you feel this way but our logs has to show that you lost your ship due to some error for us to reimburse. When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally, you're put in the same queue and dealt with according to the time your petition was submitted in that queue. The same rules of evidence in our server logs apply for everyone.
Kieron, sorry for putting you on the spot, but is it possible for the GMs to sort through the logs to determine if the player was suffering from very large amounts of lag (in a way that cannot be faked by player-submitted logs)? I think a lot of people would be happier if GMs skirted around the problem less. Even an answer like "it is not our policy to reimburse ships due to lag encountered during large fleet engagements since high amounts of lag is anticipated and expected" might go a long way to please more people. Just my 0.02 ISK.
Do I look like kieron to you?
Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online
Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ |
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:39:00 -
[17]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I'm sorry that you feel this way but our logs has to show that you lost your ship due to some error for us to reimburse. When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally, you're put in the same queue and dealt with according to the time your petition was submitted in that queue. The same rules of evidence in our server logs apply for everyone.
Kieron, sorry for putting you on the spot, but is it possible for the GMs to sort through the logs to determine if the player was suffering from very large amounts of lag (in a way that cannot be faked by player-submitted logs)? I think a lot of people would be happier if GMs skirted around the problem less. Even an answer like "it is not our policy to reimburse ships due to lag encountered during large fleet engagements since high amounts of lag is anticipated and expected" might go a long way to please more people. Just my 0.02 ISK.
Do I look like kieron to you?
Whoops. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:40:00 -
[18]
Oh snap!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Aramendel
Amarr North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally
That is true.
Everyone has the same chance of the dice to get a GM who A) does not bother to check the logs and always refuses B) does not bother to check the logs and always grants, C) does not bother to check the logs and grants or refuses depending on the wording and his mood and D) one who *actually* checks the logs.
The reimbusement petitioning system is a gamble, but at least it is the same gamble for everyone
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Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries Zzz
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Tarminic Reasonable question
Do I look like kieron to you?
That is avoiding the issue at hand sir.
Originally by: CCP Morpheus
Post with your alt.
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xOm3gAx
Caldari Stain of Mind
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:54:00 -
[21]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I'm sorry that you feel this way but our logs has to show that you lost your ship due to some error for us to reimburse. When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally, you're put in the same queue and dealt with according to the time your petition was submitted in that queue. The same rules of evidence in our server logs apply for everyone.
Not trying to argue or anything wrangler but thats not entirely true. I've personally been in situations where reimbursement should have been made and wasn't. The reason i say should have been is because the exact same thing happened to a corp mate of the time and he was reimbursed yet i however was not. Mind you this was a few years ago so i am aware that this situation may have changed but there used to be many inconsistancies with reimbursment amongst other things. Again this is not to argue simply making a point that what you stated may not always be 100% true though it should be how things are and most of the time is how things are. -----------
"Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
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xOm3gAx
Caldari Stain of Mind
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:55:00 -
[22]
Edited by: xOm3gAx on 04/10/2007 15:55:23
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I'm sorry that you feel this way but our logs has to show that you lost your ship due to some error for us to reimburse. When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally, you're put in the same queue and dealt with according to the time your petition was submitted in that queue. The same rules of evidence in our server logs apply for everyone.
Kieron, sorry for putting you on the spot, but is it possible for the GMs to sort through the logs to determine if the player was suffering from very large amounts of lag (in a way that cannot be faked by player-submitted logs)? I think a lot of people would be happier if GMs skirted around the problem less. Even an answer like "it is not our policy to reimburse ships due to lag encountered during large fleet engagements since high amounts of lag is anticipated and expected" might go a long way to please more people. Just my 0.02 ISK.
Do I look like kieron to you?
To be honost I was thinking about starting a betting service for whether or not you are his alt -----------
"Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:59:00 -
[23]
There really isn't one single way to handle these things, as every situation are different. And before bringing it up, yes different situations can look the same to you even though the reason behind them are different. In general we do not reimburse due to lag in fleet battles though.
Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online
Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ |
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Snake Jankins
Minmatar German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:01:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 04/10/2007 16:04:32 After the node reinforcement in bkg the day, when there had been 700 people in local before, logging in took me like half an hour, loading all channels and stuff another 5 minutes and then all navigation commands were also 5 minutes delayed, the grid was empty and I couldn't fly anywhere, while I still had like 20 fps. Then took damage and lost my vagabond and petitioned.
Nothing in the logs, must be my connection. Well my 16Mbit connection was fine, like always, so I asked if CCP is sure that their logs don't forget some aspects like lag of the proxy servers or lag due to a few hundred people trying to log in. They just disagreed with my opinion that the logs are missing something important.
edit: A 'We don't reimburse losses in blobfests in general !' would be more believable and acceptable. ___________ I've never been so serious as I am now. No, really. |
Shar'Tuk TheHated
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:08:00 -
[25]
Heres a novel idea. Stop petitioning losses you know wont be reimbursed due to being in a 300+ fleet battle. Your only clogging the petition system. You well know the chances of being lagged to death and can only blame yourself for adding to the problem. No you cant have a due over this is EvE, deal with it.
DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale!
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES! |
icmp
Caldari Screaming Fist
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:12:00 -
[26]
If you only reimburse when the logs show something was wrong, and the logs never show something was wrong, perhaps the server needs better logging..
Originally by: Maimonides Einotar
screaming fist more like screaming devs
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Snake Jankins
Minmatar German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:13:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 04/10/2007 16:15:05
Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated Heres a novel idea. Stop petitioning losses you know wont be reimbursed due to being in a 300+ fleet battle. Your only clogging the petition system. You well know the chances of being lagged to death and can only blame yourself for adding to the problem. No you cant have a due over this is EvE, deal with it.
The game mechanics that leads to these 300+ fleets nowadays, when station systems are attacked or defended, weren't my idea. I'm forced to take part, if I don't want to lose the station. I'd prefer 150 people maximum on one side. edit: And it's not really fun, if you have to partipate in a fight that is totally unplayable to protect your investment. ___________ I've never been so serious as I am now. No, really. |
Caol
UK Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler I'm sorry that you feel this way but our logs has to show that you lost your ship due to some error for us to reimburse. When it comes to petitions we treat everyone equally, you're put in the same queue and dealt with according to the time your petition was submitted in that queue. The same rules of evidence in our server logs apply for everyone.
1) Surely your logs would show: - The time when an attempt to activate a module was made. - The time when the module actually activated. The above would be an indication of the "lag monster". Yes, there is counter arguement that peoples connection and location and ping, etc come into the arguement but these logs would exist for everyone in the system.
2) - Simply put, you [CCP] must know the limits of the technology and when it tells you that there are simply too many people on a grid for an enjoyable performance in gameplay to be experienced. I know this to be the case because nodes have been reset in the past due to the node/server being "unreachable". Isn't it time for CCP to be honest about the limits of the server, limtis we all know are there?
3) - There is a general, not widespread, feeling in the community that petitions are lotteries. That you can be honest and not get your ship back or lie and get your ship back. This also compounds a view, probably not widespread, that a number of GMs get the wrong end of the stick more than they do the right.
4) - Game mechanics induce lag. Whether it is pos modules or station services with insanely high HP, or just the general mentality, you need a blob to ensure a win. Objectives in a constellation that need to be accomplished with x amount of time of each other or all at the same time would help to spread the blob out. No such changes look like being made or having any effect. Server optimizations are all well and good, but game mechanics optimizations should also be considered.
5) - /beg. From my personal view, one of my main frustrations with this game is waiting 2hrs and jumping into a lagged out gate to wake up in your clone bay. You can paint the world of eve as a dark unforgiving place etc etc, but its this kind of thing people will (and have) quit over - the situation is that frustrating.
To then be told there is no record of said occurence just compounds the view CCP just doesn't care about players and the GMs don't know anything about the game wrt to the fights that matter - the fights that determine where you play the game out off a 0.0 pos/station or back in empire/npc space.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:25:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Caol
1) Surely your logs would show: - The time when an attempt to activate a module was made. - The time when the module actually activated. The above would be an indication of the "lag monster". Yes, there is counter arguement that peoples connection and location and ping, etc come into the arguement but these logs would exist for everyone in the system.
Actually, they would just show when they received your request to activate the module and when that request left the server as a yes or no. Which means network overhead lag wouldn't be detected.
Quote: 2) - Simply put, you [CCP] must know the limits of the technology and when it tells you that there are simply too many people on a grid for an enjoyable performance in gameplay to be experienced. I know this to be the case because nodes have been reset in the past due to the node/server being "unreachable". Isn't it time for CCP to be honest about the limits of the server, limtis we all know are there?
They are - thats why they don't reimburse fleet battle losses. They know, and you know, that lag becomes excessive so they are "fight at your own risk"
Quote: 4) - Game mechanics induce lag. Whether it is pos modules or station services with insanely high HP, or just the general mentality, you need a blob to ensure a win. Objectives in a constellation that need to be accomplished with x amount of time of each other or all at the same time would help to spread the blob out. No such changes look like being made or having any effect. Server optimizations are all well and good, but game mechanics optimizations should also be considered.
True.
Quote: 5) - /beg. From my personal view, one of my main frustrations with this game is waiting 2hrs and jumping into a lagged out gate to wake up in your clone bay. You can paint the world of eve as a dark unforgiving place etc etc, but its this kind of thing people will (and have) quit over - the situation is that frustrating.
While true, no one forces you to fight in them...it's your own free will. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Caol
UK Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Caol 5) - /beg. From my personal view, one of my main frustrations with this game is waiting 2hrs and jumping into a lagged out gate to wake up in your clone bay. You can paint the world of eve as a dark unforgiving place etc etc, but its this kind of thing people will (and have) quit over - the situation is that frustrating.
While true, no one forces you to fight in them...it's your own free will.
Eh?
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