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Ed Gein
Dimir Machinations
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:03:00 -
[1]
Because I don't see how these ships can be useful in pvp and marauding is not sneaking into 0.0 and shooting rats. Honestly, I don't care if its bonus reads something to the effect "you lock a ship and it automatically blows up". They have inflated sigs, crap sensor strength, no powergrid, and lower scan resolution than a normal bs (is that really necessary?) Not that I have a problem with this, it could be a huge carebear mission pwnmobile, thats perfectly fine.
What gets on my nerves is there are a ton of average pvpers out there that have had BS5 trained for YEARS thinking they have planned ahead for the day when T2 bs's arrive. That day finally approaches and it seems we are getting the shaft. Don't get me wrong, I am sure the Covert BS's will be ace, but the average PvPer doesn't need a cyno bs (cloaking 5?? sigh). I am not saying hand us a BS HAC equivalent. That would be insanely overpowered. But you have to throw us some bone right? We have waited forever.
Tell me I am wrong devs, call me a noob, and tell me to stfu, because my assumptions are idiotic, and this ship will be useful in pvp just as much, if not more, than a normal BS.
Might as well tell us the ship bonuses now so we can get the whining and complaining out of the way, and maybe you won't have to patch them up a dozen times like the stealth bombers before they are useful.
I would /rant off, but I broke the switch long ago. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight?
The Winner. |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:05:00 -
[2]
did you miss the great big gold barred post that said these are not the final ships stats?
Originally by: Akita T No, it's a trap ! I can tell from some of the modules and from seeing quite a few traps in my time...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:15:00 -
[3]
But they ARE battleship-sized HACs. They have 10% more HP, they have a 25/12.5 resists bonus against racial enemy damages, they will certainly have equal or higher DPS as the T1 ship they're based on (with better ammo usage and cap effectiveness due to decreased weapon number and increased damage bonus), they have better speed, cap recharge, max lock range and max locked targets... and whatever else you could want, including huge cargholds.
Of course, this all had to be counterbalanced somehow, so they won't turn into solopwnmobiles. So they get lousier locking times and crappy sensor strength, so you can JAM them more effectively. They are less affected by RSDs (which will probaby get nerfed even further) as their T1 counterparts, percentually speaking... but they will be much more vulnerable to ECM (which kind of needed a slight boost anyway).
So from where I'm standing, they look perfectly balanced for PvP too. _
Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting... |
Ed Gein
Dimir Machinations
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:16:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme did you miss the great big gold barred post that said these are not the final ships stats?
Yeah, but stats not final, and drastically changing everything on the ship are two different things. From patches past, we know that things rarely change drastically after being put up. And for this to be viable in pvp, multiple stats would need boosted, and obviously were deliberately nerfed. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight?
The Winner. |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:17:00 -
[5]
ok let me be a little more specific, "do not put much weight on these placeholder stats"
you understand better now?
Originally by: Akita T No, it's a trap ! I can tell from some of the modules and from seeing quite a few traps in my time...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ed Gein And for this to be viable in pvp, multiple stats would need boosted, and obviously were deliberately nerfed.
Solo PvP ? Definetely not. Fleet PvP ? Oh, hell yeah. _
Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting... |
Ed Gein
Dimir Machinations
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:22:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Akita T But they ARE battleship-sized HACs.
Their res's don't touch hac levels. Max lock range and targets locked aren't really important to average pvpers. This that do matter, like I said earlier, scan resolution, sensor strength, sig radius and power grid are all crazily nerfed.
Even if the ship has some bonus which makes the fact it only has a few weapon hardpoints, that could make it equal out from a dps standpoint, it wouldn't make up for the lack of pg for things like tanking, nos'ing/neuting, mwd's, injectors, etc...
--------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight?
The Winner. |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:23:00 -
[8]
Whine about ships already?
Nice, pre-emptive whinefest!
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Ed Gein
Dimir Machinations
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme ok let me be a little more specific, "do not put much weight on these placeholder stats"
you understand better now?
These are only placeholders if ccp purposely just made up random stuff to put there to not reveal the true ship stats, which I sincerely doubt. They do bear some indicators to the direction of the final product. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight?
The Winner. |
Ed Gein
Dimir Machinations
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Whine about ships already?
Nice, pre-emptive whinefest!
yeah, its a bit much, but I just fear there aren't going to be any descent t2 bs's for the average, solo/small gang pvpers, something which a lot of us have waited forever for. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight?
The Winner. |
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Sral TBear
letter of marque Plunder-Bears
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:53:00 -
[11]
Ya tech II BS wanna wanna but..
It have to be a capship hunter killar, just between BS and caps ,wooot....that is my Tech II BS not some raven with fancy paint and another 10 launchers Your signature image exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Khes
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:58:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ed Gein
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Whine about ships already?
Nice, pre-emptive whinefest!
yeah, its a bit much, but I just fear there aren't going to be any descent t2 bs's for the average, solo/small gang pvpers, something which a lot of us have waited forever for.
Im just curious on what exactly you did expect when it comes to T2 BS? Just another Raven with just slightly better stats?
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Thoran Karlien
N.U.R.S.E. New EVE Rising
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Posted - 2007.10.05 07:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ed Gein
Even if the ship has some bonus which makes the fact it only has a few weapon hardpoints, that could make it equal out from a dps standpoint, it wouldn't make up for the lack of pg for things like tanking, nos'ing/neuting, mwd's, injectors, etc...
They end up with probably more effective power grid than t1 bs... you will only fit halve the weapons of the t1 bs... if you add the powergrid needs for another 4 weapons to each ship you should easily get more power grid than t1.
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Winters Chill
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.10.05 07:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T But they ARE battleship-sized HACs. They have 10% more HP, they have a 25/12.5 resists bonus against racial enemy damages, they will certainly have equal or higher DPS as the T1 ship they're based on (with better ammo usage and cap effectiveness due to decreased weapon number and increased damage bonus), they have better speed, cap recharge, max lock range and max locked targets... and whatever else you could want, including huge cargholds.
Of course, this all had to be counterbalanced somehow, so they won't turn into solopwnmobiles. So they get lousier locking times and crappy sensor strength, so you can JAM them more effectively. They are less affected by RSDs (which will probaby get nerfed even further) as their T1 counterparts, percentually speaking... but they will be much more vulnerable to ECM (which kind of needed a slight boost anyway).
So from where I'm standing, they look perfectly balanced for PvP too.
The idea of tech 2 presupposes a design improvement not a varient.
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Ed Gein
Dimir Machinations
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Posted - 2007.10.05 07:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Khes
Originally by: Ed Gein
Originally by: Sheriff Jones Whine about ships already?
Nice, pre-emptive whinefest!
yeah, its a bit much, but I just fear there aren't going to be any descent t2 bs's for the average, solo/small gang pvpers, something which a lot of us have waited forever for.
Im just curious on what exactly you did expect when it comes to T2 BS? Just another Raven with just slightly better stats?
I am insulted you think I fly caldari. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight?
The Winner. |
Ed Gein
Dimir Machinations
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Posted - 2007.10.05 07:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Winters Chill
Originally by: Akita T But they ARE battleship-sized HACs. They have 10% more HP, they have a 25/12.5 resists bonus against racial enemy damages, they will certainly have equal or higher DPS as the T1 ship they're based on (with better ammo usage and cap effectiveness due to decreased weapon number and increased damage bonus), they have better speed, cap recharge, max lock range and max locked targets... and whatever else you could want, including huge cargholds.
Of course, this all had to be counterbalanced somehow, so they won't turn into solopwnmobiles. So they get lousier locking times and crappy sensor strength, so you can JAM them more effectively. They are less affected by RSDs (which will probaby get nerfed even further) as their T1 counterparts, percentually speaking... but they will be much more vulnerable to ECM (which kind of needed a slight boost anyway).
So from where I'm standing, they look perfectly balanced for PvP too.
The idea of tech 2 presupposes a design improvement not a varient.
Becareful Winter, you might actually educate them. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight?
The Winner. |
Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.05 08:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ed Gein Because I don't see how these ships can be useful in pvp and marauding is not sneaking into 0.0 and shooting rats. Honestly, I don't care if its bonus reads something to the effect "you lock a ship and it automatically blows up". They have inflated sigs, crap sensor strength, no powergrid, and lower scan resolution than a normal bs (is that really necessary?) Not that I have a problem with this, it could be a huge carebear mission pwnmobile, thats perfectly fine.
What gets on my nerves is there are a ton of average pvpers out there that have had BS5 trained for YEARS thinking they have planned ahead for the day when T2 bs's arrive. That day finally approaches and it seems we are getting the shaft. Don't get me wrong, I am sure the Covert BS's will be ace, but the average PvPer doesn't need a cyno bs (cloaking 5?? sigh). I am not saying hand us a BS HAC equivalent. That would be insanely overpowered. But you have to throw us some bone right? We have waited forever.
Tell me I am wrong devs, call me a noob, and tell me to stfu, because my assumptions are idiotic, and this ship will be useful in pvp just as much, if not more, than a normal BS.
Might as well tell us the ship bonuses now so we can get the whining and complaining out of the way, and maybe you won't have to patch them up a dozen times like the stealth bombers before they are useful.
I would /rant off, but I broke the switch long ago.
Eh, well, because these ships will be invention-only, they'll be even more rare and overpriced when they come out than has been usual.
By the time the prices for them have settled down a bit, you'll just about be finishing Cloaking 5... in fact if you start now, you'll probably be ready in time to pay way too much!
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Big Zulu
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Posted - 2007.10.05 08:30:00 -
[18]
Can i have your stuff?
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iknowWho
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.05 08:36:00 -
[19]
do we know what bonuses they get? cause i havent seen it posted anywhere.
Originally by: Stitcher Hold on, I think it's trying to communicate.....
Bar wheep grada, wheep ninibong?
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.10.05 08:38:00 -
[20]
I don't understand the problem with having BS HACs. Really. Look at 0.0 combat. Its more and more about carriers, dreads, motherships, titans. T1 BS are horribly outclassed there. Having a T2 BS would close the gap a bit so that sub capital ships are viable again.
I'm all for T2 BS, and if people are worried about balance, just make sure their speed is low. Nobody complains about sacriledges being solo-pwn mobiles, people complain about Vagabonds. So the main thing that defines a solo-pwn mobile is the ability to get the hell out of dodge when things get hairy. Like MS in lowsec.
T2 BS would actually make the game more balanced IMO in terms of 0.0 warfare vs capital blobs.
------------------------------------------------
New idea for sovereignty: Sovereignty revisited |
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.10.05 08:39:00 -
[21]
Originally by: iknowWho do we know what bonuses they get? cause i havent seen it posted anywhere.
No info on bonuses yet, afaik... so we don't really know anything important about the new ships yet, tbh.
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Plave Okice
Gallente Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.05 08:44:00 -
[22]
No bonuses, no confirmed stats = stfu no whining, please.
We don't know how they'll turn out, let's just wait and see eh?
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.10.05 08:53:00 -
[23]
Well, since the bonuses are not known, whining is stupid.
At any rate, the T2 Typhoon is going to be just lovely for straight-out pew-pew, really (with a, say, Rof bonus and damage bonus).
The other kind of T2 ships, well, they did state they don't really want a BS-sized solo-pwn HACs (which they could easily turn out to be), and they did state it's geared towards mission runners. The covert-ops BS (judging from the Minmatar one) are going to be very nice for PvP.
Me? Personally, the only thing I'll use are the electronic attack frigates, they seem lovely. Just have to see the bonuses ;)
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Futureface01
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.05 17:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ed Gein
What gets on my nerves is there are a ton of average pvpers out there that have had BS5 trained for YEARS thinking they have planned ahead for the day when T2 bs's arrive. That day finally approaches and it seems we are getting the shaft. ......... But you have to throw us some bone right? We have waited forever.
New ships for PVP'ers : Assualt Ships, Heavy Assualt Ships, Covert Ops Ships, Blockade Running Transports, Dreadnaughts, Titans, Recon Ships......
New ships for Empire Players: ORE Miners
We still run missions in Domi's and Ravens... These 2 ships have been availible since launch. At least one (raven) has been nerfed severely since launch. Whether that was justified or not, the fact remains. 2 (3 if you count CNR) serious mission running ships, the rest of the entire game is all toys for PVP'ers
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.05 17:53:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Tarminic on 05/10/2007 17:53:22 I'll just summarize my feelings about this thread:
T2 Battleships are not, and never were designed to be BS-sized HACs. This has been stated explicitly by the developers over and over for years. Get over yourselves. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Decarus
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:01:00 -
[26]
Ed Gein... Seriously man. I'm ever so much interested in the real horror shows of our century.. but that guy was about as cool as Ronald McDonald. We're talking repressed flesh-eating hillbilly momas boy uncool. What gives?
But on subject: Yeah those stats didn't wow me so much. I claim no ultimate knowledge of how to know decent stats or to catch a ships true vantage point at first glance but they really did look kinda *meh*. Then again we did get a Dev telling us those were unrevised stats so complaining now is also rather *meh*. But rabble, rabble!! nevertheless, cause I can.
~Decarus, DANGER! Highly corrosive chemical material. Contact may cause severe irritation, burns or poisoning. Keep away from children. |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:03:00 -
[27]
Stop discussing the stats of ships that are not finalized yet.
For the love of FSM, what a complete waste of time.
Stop looking into the Cyrstal Ball. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Occara
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Xaen Stop discussing the stats of ships that are not finalized yet.
For the love of FSM, what a complete waste of time.
Stop looking into the Cyrstal Ball.
metawhining sucks.
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Frater Perdurabo
Amarr The Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:36:00 -
[29]
Everybody complaining that the OP is moaning about the ships before they are released and before stats have been finalised is forgetting one vital point: T2 ammo.
Remember when T2 ammo was 1st released onto sisi? The stats were totally out of wack and the devs said 'dont worry, these are just preliminary stats and they will be different once they go live'
They diddnt change, they came out exactly as they were on sisi.
Now in not saying this will happen to the T2 BS, all im saying is that with CCP's track record on this kind of thing i dont blame the guy for pre-emptive whines. Sig->
Good isnt it.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:59:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Becq Starforged on 05/10/2007 18:59:59 Warning: speculation follows
I have a theory about the new Marauder class. I think this ship is intended to be the demi-dreadnaught that many people have mentioned a desire for in many threads. Looking at the ship stats we have right now (which I suspect are at least somewhat close to the final stats), we see that the Marauders have high range, high signature size, and low resolution. These all point to them being specialized in fighting capitals, with reduced ability against battleships and difficulty against small ships. Another interesting thing to note is that all of them have seven high slots, but only four weapon hardpoints, which leads to the thought that their role involves having several non-weapon high slots. The only thing that is missing to make this an excellent ship for an anti capital role is one of the following:
1) The ability to use capital weapons. 2) The ability to use a new 'heavy assault' version of existing battleship weapons. 3) The ability to use siege modules (or a new module with similar effects).
My guess would be #3: 99% or more reduction in powergrid and CPU for the siege module. This explains in part the extra utility high slots and is supported by the skill requirement of advanced weapons upgrades 5.
Combining the bonuses from siege mode with 'standard' T2 assault ship bonuses (damage bonus and ROF bonus, since it derives from the heavy assault ship tree), this ship would be capable of putting out the damage of about 5-6 battleships, but with the siege mode penalties, this massive damage would be useful only against capitals or POSes. (Against smaller ships and not in siege mode, it would be somewhat weaker than a T1 BS.) It would also have a tank vastly superior to a normal battleship, enabling it to go toe-to toe with dreadnaughts with some gang support. Which is where the remaining high slots come in: I think they are intended for logistic modules. A small gang of these ships in siege mode, each repping/energizing the primary, would be a rock-solid core to a larger fleet formation.
There's my theory. This ship would have a place in the front lines of any large fleet. It would be able to support small fleet actions or support dreadnaughts against POSes, but it would shine in anti-capital firepower. With some gang support (for example, from ships with webbers and/or painters) it would also be extremely effective in high-end missions or deadspace complexes, as well.
(As an aside, the other options I suggested would have similar effects; but I'm leaning toward the above description.)
-- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services
At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today! |
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