| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Topic |
Testosterone Bomb
Red Ballz
    |
Posted - 2007.10.06 13:16:00 -
[31]
Hey there
Well, High Sec Mission Ship Ganks do happen and if the killer is successful he can make a nice bit of ISK when a ship is fitted with a few Billion + ,modules.
An attempt was made on my brothers CNR that fitted with well over 10B in modules, but with my brother he modified his mission fit to try and deal with ganks.
The short was that when a gank attempt was made they could not even begin to really kill his tank fast enough and were killed in the attempt.
Fly Safe
|
Feng Schui
Minmatar
The Ninja Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.10.06 13:25:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Feng Schui on 06/10/2007 13:26:16
 Originally by: Acoco Osiris
Originally by: Feng Schui
Edited by: Feng Schui on 06/10/2007 10:21:23
i'm pretty sure a CNR, with 85 - 90% omni-resists, will have enough of a tank to out-last a typical suicide squad. <--- officer fit tank btw.
Yea, sure, if an actual PVP fleet came in, you probably would not survive, almost 100% guarantee loss, but a small 5-10 man suicide squad? yea, if you're not AFK, you can survive.
Even if you had 90% omni resists and 10k shields, that still only comes to 100k on your biggest buffer. Freighters have like 200k hull. If freighters regularly pop to suicide ganks, CNRs can.
10k shields? huh? 100k buffer?
More like: 16,279 shields with a 189,538 buffer, and can boost for 1203 damage every 4 seconds. Not too mention, it also has:
683 DPS, 3754 Volley damage (which a freighter is lacking a bit).
Comparison Stats:
Take our CNR. 189,538 HP buffer, against 5 suicide gank dominix's, fitted for max damage:
6x 350mm Railgun I's with Antimatter L, 5x Ogre I's, 3x Sensor Boosters, 7x Mag Field Stabalizers.
Each domi would put out 1258 volley damage. A CNR, with the proper omni resists, would only get hit for 126 damage per dominix (this includes the railguns and 5x ogre I's).
You would need 130 dominix's just to alpha strike the CNR's shields away. Not too mention you now need to get through armor and structure.
edit: This is not to say, you won't get ship scanned, and people would actually fit properly to kill you (ie: T2 gear, faction ammo, etc..)
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro (mods@ccpgames.com)
http://dl |
Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
|
Posted - 2007.10.06 14:20:00 -
[33]
To answer your question. You should start worrying somewhere around 3 - 4 bil in modules fitted. Be below that and suicide gankers would take considerable risk if they are going to break even.
Ganks in that magnitude are not something random people do. It takes organization and preparation and a lot of patience so people do it for isk and thus are rather aware about whats worth ganking and whats not.
If you fit yourself just for pimp factor then at some point you might actually become even worth hunting (probing specifically for you where ever you run them and waiting proper opportunity for gank) instead of sitting on gate with scanner out on previous gate to see if something worth it comes along. Reasonable faction fits are not worth ganking (you know, navy launchers and BCU's plus perhaps Gistii booster).
 |
Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
|
Posted - 2007.10.06 14:40:00 -
[34]
As far as numbers go. Approx 10..12 Ravens can reliably gank faction/officer fitted CNR assuming omnitank and active hardeners, less if they know what modules you have on and fine tune their damage types. They can get off 2 volleys before concord arrives (around 7.5..8 sec RoF) if they are lucky then even 3.
They do approx 5500 burst damage per volley (5800 with rage torps or 5600 with faction torps, with 5x BCU II fitted). This will cost them per raven
33 mil insurance
6x 3.5 mil = 21 mil launchers
5x 2.5 mil = 12.5 mil BCU's
approx 5 mil for midslots, say sensor boosters / target painters / whatever
all togehter approx 72 mil per raven.
To be on the safe side let's assume 12 ravens. Thats 864 mil. Well ofc people do not do it for free so there needs to be some modules fitted on that target to be worth poping. Enough of them modules that if reasonable amount of them survives you will break even and make decent profit.
I used Ravens bcos last I heard CONCORD goes now after your drones also and thus it seems better to get the target down before CONCORD arrives. Feel free to correct me if I missed anything important as that exercice is rather theoretical. I don't have practical experience in suicide ganking (kestrel swarms on suspected marco barges do not count I think).
|
Edriahn
Gallente
Bulgarian Mafia Squad
|
Posted - 2007.10.06 15:05:00 -
[35]
You all talk with numbers and stuff, but the game is not just maths.
An officer fitted Vindicator(around 4 bil in fitting) with two reps goes down in around 1 minute to 4 BS and two command dmg dealers. Machariel for example is the same. Most of the people don't do it(ganking faction BS) for profit, but for fun at first place. And most people spend their last money for navy ravens and then fit them with T2 stuff, which is pretty easy to kill. Don't overestimate faction battleships, they are good, but in 10:1 engagement nothing will save you ifthe gang for you is prepared properly.
 |
Lazuran
Gallente
Time And ISK Sink Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.10.06 15:18:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Edriahn
You all talk with numbers and stuff, but the game is not just maths.
An officer fitted Vindicator(around 4 bil in fitting) with two reps goes down in around 1 minute to 4 BS and two command dmg dealers. Machariel for example is the same. Most of the people don't do it(ganking faction BS) for profit, but for fun at first place. And most people spend their last money for navy ravens and then fit them with T2 stuff, which is pretty easy to kill. Don't overestimate faction battleships, they are good, but in 10:1 engagement nothing will save you ifthe gang for you is prepared properly.
reading comprehension FTW ... the OP is talking about "suicide ganking", i.e. in hi sec. CONCORD will save a decent CNR from most 10:1 engagements.
isn't it funny how some people advocate both GTC<=>ISK trades and EVE being superior due to its cruelty and costly losses, when they use the former to circumvent the latter?
|
Hotice
|
Posted - 2007.10.06 15:33:00 -
[37]
It is almost impossible to be ganked in faction ship build for doing missions without put in 10+ ships. Unlike freighter/indy, mission ships are build to take damage. This is especially true when facing a shield tanking mission ship.
I personally only been ganked once near Motsu in my nightmare. The had 2 geddon and 5 domi. However, by the time they got poped by concord, I still had over 46% armor left. I collected a lot of drones/mods from their wrecks. A CNR with faction shield tanking setup is going to be rather hard to take down even with 10 domi I think. 1 t2 DCU will make them go through hell.
To be honest, it is better to bust mission area than ganking missions near gate/stations. A well tanked mission can easily tank entire 5th level AE, that is a lot of dps for players to duplicate before concord shows up. The best would be trying this in .5-.6 space since concord reaction time is slower. Anywhere above .7, it is just a waste of time and isk.
|
Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
|
Posted - 2007.10.06 19:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Hotice
It is almost impossible to be ganked in faction ship build for doing missions without put in 10+ ships. Unlike freighter/indy, mission ships are build to take damage. This is especially true when facing a shield tanking mission ship.
I personally only been ganked once near Motsu in my nightmare. The had 2 geddon and 5 domi. However, by the time they got poped by concord, I still had over 46% armor left. I collected a lot of drones/mods from their wrecks. A CNR with faction shield tanking setup is going to be rather hard to take down even with 10 domi I think. 1 t2 DCU will make them go through hell.
To be honest, it is better to bust mission area than ganking missions near gate/stations. A well tanked mission can easily tank entire 5th level AE, that is a lot of dps for players to duplicate before concord shows up. The best would be trying this in .5-.6 space since concord reaction time is slower. Anywhere above .7, it is just a waste of time and isk.
Yep. It might be harder to gank missionrunner than freighter but it's possible and profitable if it's pimped enough. However tanking ability of ship does not really enter into equation in case of hi sec suicide gank.
10 T2 torp ravens do 60 000 burst damage at whatever reists you are lowest at (assuming they scan you first). Even in sec 1.0 they will get off 2 volleys. In sec 0.7 and lower they might even get off 3 volleys if they are lucky. Against that damage amount ability to tank is mostly irrelevant. It's magnitudes above what even full officer tank can soak up. All that Damage control does is to add approx 10 to 15 k of 'effective hp'. Thats 1 to 2 more ships needed for sucsessful gank.
|
Elmicker
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
|
Posted - 2007.10.06 20:00:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Feng Schui
6x 350mm Railgun I's with Antimatter L, 5x Ogre I's, 3x Sensor Boosters, 7x Mag Field Stabalizers.
Each domi would put out 1258 volley damage.
Max damage would be neutron blasters with AM. The volley damage EFT is serving you does not factor in drones.
|
Feng Schui
Minmatar
The Ninja Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.10.06 23:27:00 -
[40]
true, i was going more of a sniper fit :\
not saying its not possible to be ganked, it is, and if you're running a 200-300 bill setup, expect for people to plan out to gank you.
but a random suicide squad? doubtful.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro (mods@ccpgames.com)
http://dl |
|
Hayward Cyprus
Caldari
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.07 00:33:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Hayward Cyprus on 07/10/2007 00:33:27
Originally by: Xaen
CNR is pure epeen.
I'm perfectly happy with my vanilla raven for missions. Spending that much on a ship just seems foolish to me, but then I treat all my ships as disposable/replaceable.
A 560M ship that has 15% better DPS and 10% better passive tank (on an active tanking ship) than the 91M variety? I'll pass thanks.
But to each their own I guess.
You do realize what that difference in damage means for cutting down the mission running time? I am guessing you don't because 15% more DPS means a lot more than 15% faster missionrunning (try rachen misuna in Raven compared to CNR for show of biggest difference, ofc on normal BS the difference will not be as big).
To the people suggesting Blasters for Domiganksetups, do you all wait in one spot and hope for the CNR to show up exactly there or what? have him jump through like 50 times till you get lucky? And even then, you won't be at optimal with all ships, 350s/425s are way more viable ....
About ganking I would also say Ravens really are the best choice, right after or on par with tempest/phoon.
And you would probably need 30-40 to instapop a CNR, halve it to still have a chance depending on concord reaction time.
|
Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
|
Posted - 2007.10.07 07:35:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Hayward Cyprus
About ganking I would also say Ravens really are the best choice, right after or on par with tempest/phoon.
You got me wondering. Seems that typhoon would be better for suicide gank than Raven (theoretically) as it has 8 hi slots available. It's theoretical burst damage is somewhat higher (by 200 approx) PLUS it has big enough dronebay for 5 sentry drones. However it takes a lot more SP to use it for max effect as one would need to have trained both guns and missiles up to T2 levels for max gank.
Then again it's cheaper on ganking with just t1 guns and ammo is quite viable option also. It would add just few more ships into equation to pop your target. Quess same goes for Armageddon also. And ofc domi, as mentioned above is also quite good at it.
|
Acoco Osiris
Gallente
Sublime.
|
Posted - 2007.10.07 20:44:00 -
[43]
I EFTed all the tier 1 battleships (why spend more ISK than you have to), and the Dominix came out ever so slightly ahead in terms of DPS, but the Typhoon was very close, and the 'Phoon has two advantages. First, it can get much more alpha with torps and arties (though I used ACs in my calcs), and second, its DPS will climb above the Dominix when you factor in overheating (hey, why not?)
------------------------------
One more soldier off to war...
And one Velator in my hangars. |
Tesal
Red Frog Investments
Blue Sky Consortium
|
Posted - 2007.10.07 21:22:00 -
[44]
I don't think they will gank mission ships. The first reason, is they are set up to scan cargo holds, and that reduces the odds of you getting scanned for mods. Second, they are in a "gank freighter" mindset, they build their tactics for that. And 3rd, is economics. They could pop you, but then they would have to sell the loot. Freighter loot is usually a commodity. They can fly to Jita and dump it on the market. With a faction fitted CNR it might take a week to sell the mods, and some of these pirates may not even have contract skills trained. I don't see a pirate ganker doing that, he wants a nice, fat and juicy target that can't shoot back. There is a simple solution to all of this if you are worried, set up a waypoint before you enter every .5 system, and fly gate to gate. No worries then. Honestly though, if you can't afford to lose it, it shouldn't leave the station.
|
Grendelsbane
|
Posted - 2007.10.08 17:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Thrus
Originally by: Vitrael
If you work your ass off for months to afford a ship that just runs missions you deserve to lose it. You need to remember what Eve is all about. 
Yes eve has alot of pvp, no it is not all eve is about. eve has a market with complex levels that i have never seen the like of in other games, addmitedly I haven't played all the MMOs out there but it is quite a trick to learn in and of itself. if you don't like PvE get every one to stop mining for trit for 2 months and watch PvP fall apart.
to contribute something useful. the biggest question in how fast your ship would go down is are your hardners turned on when they lock you? when people first come through a ate it is likely they do not have active hardners activated and are much easier to kill. What damage type are they dealing and what are you tanked for? if they guess right your going down fast, and they can check that when scanning you fittings. the real question is can you tank them until concord arrives?
I don't think most of us here look at mining as "PvE", rather more like economic PvP. When we say "PvE", we mean missioning.
Let's face it, though, there are a lot of pilots who simply have no business in PvP - wrong mindset, poor situational awareness, laziness, impatience, and irrational/impulsive behavior. Missioning allows them to feel all warrior-like as they slaughter waves of autistic NPC battleships. Other pilots use it in place of 0.0 ratting because they have time to kill or can't be in 0.0. It's necessary.
But that doesn't mean we won't sometimes point at your faction fitted CNR and laugh. EVE has so much to offer, yet there are still so many pilots who simply log on, kill NPC's, and leave, just so they can get more l337 gear to... kill more NPC's and get more l337 gear. Missioning for it's own sake is a dead end if it's all you do.
|
Kerfira
|
Posted - 2007.10.08 23:23:00 -
[46]
AFAIK, CONCORD was buffed significantly sometime during the last couple of months. They now jam drones, nuke cap, and arrives much faster than before.....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
|
Caffeine Junkie
Caldari
The Ministry Of Funny Walks
|
Posted - 2007.10.09 00:20:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Caffeine Junkie on 09/10/2007 00:20:10
Originally by: Dubious Drewski
Are haulers the only guys who should be scared?
I've been working my ass off for the past couple of months earning my first CNR, and slowly fitting it with nicer gear, gradually replacing all T2 with faction.
But I recently jumped through the Motsu-Saila gate and I emerged in a cloud of Domis, most with sensor boosters on. (Ok, about 7 or 8 Domis) "Gee, I wonder what they're doing here  " I thought to myself, and continued on.
But then I started to wonder - if my Raven had enough valuable gear fitted, and I was one day chosen for sacrifice, what would it take to suicide gank my Faction fitted CNR?
Assuming I had an omnitank setup and all support skills to 4 or 5.
Would it take five Domis? Seven? Ten? What do you guys think?
Depends.... where do you normally do missions ? 
___________________
Caldari Navy Charon FTW!
Selling Crystal Set |
Bardi MecAuldnis
Amarr
Heretic Army
Fang Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.10.09 06:17:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Feng Schui
Edited by: Feng Schui on 06/10/2007 10:21:23
i'm pretty sure a CNR, with 85 - 90% omni-resists, will have enough of a tank to out-last a typical suicide squad. <--- officer fit tank btw.
That alone would make you a worthwhile target, even if it took 20 BS's to take you out.
---
Amarr/Caldari, and proud of it.
Hey hey let's go kenka suru!
Taisetsuna mono protect my balls!
Boku ga warui so lets fighting!
LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!! |
Vaal Erit
|
Posted - 2007.10.09 10:19:00 -
[49]
I'm suprised people haven't tried this already, to gank a CNR/Raven with tons of faction items. There is a lot of assumptions going on here.
People won't wait at a gate and gank the first CNR that comes in, that probably won't happen, but here's how I would hunt you down:
-Scanner+Prober cov-ops with passive targeter.
-Gank in areas where there are lots of Guristas missions. Gurista missions = CNRs with low EM resistance. If your target has an omni tank, look for a different target. You want the guys who harden for specific missions.
-1 BS with 8 large Neuts. 8 neuts for 600 cap = -4800 cap. CNR has about 6500 cap. Throw on a few neuts onto 2nd gank ship.
-Gank while CNR is DOING the mission. I doubt that most mission runners in high sec bother to stay aligned 100% of the time while in a mission. The time you strike is when he is cleaning up the mission and his cap/shields are fairly low.
-Cov ops should be following and gang should be safespotted really near with lots of sensor boosters, your prey should not be able to escape in time.
-T2 DCU, this is the bane of a gankers existence. With the amount of mission runners, surely there is a few guys with super expensive fits and no DCU II.
-1 Ganked out Torp Raven should do about 5,000 volley damage with a rof of 11 seconds so that's 2 volleys before CONCORD nails you.
-10 ganked out Torp Ravens should do 100k damage which should kill a CNR with 0 cap and hardeners off.
10 ganked out Ravens I dunno what they would cost. You can use t1 Siege laucnhers with t2 BCUs for maximum gankage/isk lost. Maybe 20M-30M per Raven so 200M-300M isk lost. If target has 3B worth of stuff and 1.5B drops then you are really in the money. Not staggering, "omg super money explosion!" but 1-1.5B split between 10-15 people is about 100M per person, not bad if you can setup + gank within 1-2 hrs. Now that I think about it, if you neutralize the CNR's cap, and his hardeners (not DCU I know, I know) turn off right before the torps hit, that would make things a ton easier. Second volley would do full damage and the CNR should pop and more whiner posts in General Discussion will be made and tons of people will get all emo and I'll be all lulz.
|
000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
|
Posted - 2007.10.09 11:17:00 -
[50]
Man, i'm allready wondering when CCP will nerf faction BS, or atleast nerf the LP reqs. cuz these days it seems everybody and their moms are flying one. At 1 point i undocked in the middle of no less then 3 cnr's and2 navythrons.
I wouldn't be surprised if ccp raised the number of LP for a navy BS to 1k points, but i hope that they can wait a little longer so i can cash in on one before that.
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
 |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |