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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.06 05:00:00 -
[1]
I really don't like Jita, mostly because it is trendy, but also because the competition there tends to have ripple effects on the rest of the market.
I'm curious if any other traders and industrialists would like to create a brand new trade hub?
Part of the attraction of Jita is that it is known to have everything, one stop shopping if you will. I know that Rens already exists, but it would be kind of fun to start from scratch.
Thoughts? <sig>
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Kitex
Blacktag Test Labs
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Posted - 2007.10.06 05:16:00 -
[2]
Not sure if you're entirely serious or not, but oddly enough, the idea does strike me as fun.
Would require quite a few people, but I'm certain there is enough industrial and financial power in this forum to see the job done. Might make for an interesting experiment, if nothing else.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.06 05:18:00 -
[3]
If enough other people were interested I would invest the time in finding the right system and do some trading there myself.
I'm very serious about not liking jita though. <sig>
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Benvie
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Posted - 2007.10.06 05:22:00 -
[4]
You would have to choose some place that has some sort of benefit for buyers. Some location advantage, perhaps near a mission hub that doesn't have a market hub nearby, or near an important passage to 0.0.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.06 05:45:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Benvie You would have to choose some place that has some sort of benefit for buyers. Some location advantage, perhaps near a mission hub that doesn't have a market hub nearby, or near an important passage to 0.0.
I'd prefer to stay neutral of the alliances and not favor one over the other, but if you have some suggestions for systems this could take place in it could be interesting.
The other side of it is if we were to choose a very back water system and provided enough people were involved it would become a semi-private bulk traders market of sorts. This would probably last a little while and then eventually be over run by the public. <sig>
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Ricdic
Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz
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Posted - 2007.10.06 05:50:00 -
[6]
reserving my spot in an 'i told you so' post, as you may see this happen sooner than you think I say no more
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.10.06 06:31:00 -
[7]
Having a Jita is a good thing. If you start up a new Jita and are actually successful then the only thing you'll do is make people move from Jita to the new place. There is a reason Jita exists and is so big. I personally go there about once a month at most and I don't even buy much... but Jita makes the game a LOT better for lots of people as it simplifies a lot of things and saves lots of time.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.06 06:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Shadarle Having a Jita is a good thing. If you start up a new Jita and are actually successful then the only thing you'll do is make people move from Jita to the new place. There is a reason Jita exists and is so big. I personally go there about once a month at most and I don't even buy much... but Jita makes the game a LOT better for lots of people as it simplifies a lot of things and saves lots of time.
The market would be improved with a competitor of sorts. Ideally if half the population that inhabits and frequents jita quit going there and instead went to another hub the market would be all the much better for it. I'm not sure I even really care if the trammy loving carebears from jita move to the new hub. Probably be better if they didn't.
I really like the idea of a bulk traders hub, where say all the buy orders have huge minimum volumes. <sig>
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.10.06 06:53:00 -
[9]
I don't see why it would be good for the economy. I mean there are already a lot of other hubs. The Dev blog showed that other regions make up similar amounts of sales as The Forge.
What I'm saying is that if the big time traders leave Jita then all the small time traders will eventually leave too as the bigger traders leave there will be less and less items available. And once they find out there is another hub that traders go to they will go there.
But you'd have to get a very large amount of traders to move. Traders worth trillions of ISK combined or they wouldn't be influential enough to change the market. I have 20+ billion worth of buy orders up and I am a tiny tiny part of a much smaller market than Jita.
So to sum up:
1) I don't see why it would help to move Jita / try to make 2 Jita's each half the size 2) I don't think you'll be able to do it
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.06 07:29:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shadarle I don't see why it would be good for the economy. I mean there are already a lot of other hubs. The Dev blog showed that other regions make up similar amounts of sales as The Forge.
What I'm saying is that if the big time traders leave Jita then all the small time traders will eventually leave too as the bigger traders leave there will be less and less items available. And once they find out there is another hub that traders go to they will go there.
But you'd have to get a very large amount of traders to move. Traders worth trillions of ISK combined or they wouldn't be influential enough to change the market. I have 20+ billion worth of buy orders up and I am a tiny tiny part of a much smaller market than Jita.
So to sum up:
1) I don't see why it would help to move Jita / try to make 2 Jita's each half the size 2) I don't think you'll be able to do it
Jita has too much of an indirect effect on the rest of this market. This is due in part to the number of people trading there and the massive turnover volume that results from that population. Jita too easily sets the trends for markets in other regions. Breaking the Jita population in half or creating a decent competing trade hub would take away some of the power that indirect effect has. The effect would be more distributed against all the other regions. The distribution among other regions would in turn stabilize prices, which is good for consumers. The markets then become sellers markets, while still being fair to the consumer. The consumers in turn buy more, the producers produce more and so on and so on...
as for #2 of course I can't do it. I would be but a grain of sand in the ocean of the trade market in this. I do know that my trading activity tends to stabilize prices and hold them where they are for longer periods of time.
I know that both of us depend on market instability to make the majority of our isk, but I feel that is a very short sighted approach to the market. I think market stability is much more important to long term profits. <sig>
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.10.06 08:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dr Slurm I know that both of us depend on market instability to make the majority of our isk, but I feel that is a very short sighted approach to the market. I think market stability is much more important to long term profits.
I have not reached a peak in my profits yet... so if using market instability is short sited then I couldn't imagine what long sited is
I am not quite sure why you think stability would be a good thing. It would be for producers and such... but not for traders. Stability leads to smaller and smaller margins.
Instability = good.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.06 09:06:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Dr Slurm I know that both of us depend on market instability to make the majority of our isk, but I feel that is a very short sighted approach to the market. I think market stability is much more important to long term profits.
I have not reached a peak in my profits yet... so if using market instability is short sited then I couldn't imagine what long sited is
I am not quite sure why you think stability would be a good thing. It would be for producers and such... but not for traders. Stability leads to smaller and smaller margins.
Instability = good.
Stability creates a larger market. The larger the market, the larger the potential profits.
Trojan condoms are good example of this effect. They control the vast majority of the condom market. Advertising to steal customers from other condom manufacturers is no where near as effective as trying to get new people to use condoms. So instead of expanding their market share they expand the market in general which has a greater effect.
There are other commodities that I would like to trade, unfortunately they don't have the kind of turn over right now that would make them worth it for me. <sig>
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Barbicane
A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.06 13:37:00 -
[13]
I like the idea of creating a new market hub.
Less competition in Jita means prices will rise all over the universe
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Daerkannon Shimmerscale
Gallente Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.06 16:14:00 -
[14]
Ok, but what about the bulk/volume trader? I go to Jita not because I like it or because I can get the best price there, but because it's the only place that I can go to trade the volumes I deal in in a time frame that doesn't drive me insane.
I can see a secondary hub being setup for ship/module trade and maybe some minerals and other building materials, but frankly for the stuff I deal in Jita is the only place to be and splitting it just makes twice the work for me. Twice the work for 10% more profit doesn't look like a winning equation to me. --- Honest officer, the dwarf was on fire when I got here! Can't find a mechanical engineering agent? Need a non-Caldari Navy agent? http://www.eve-agents.com/ for all your agent needs! |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.10.06 16:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dr Slurm Stability creates a larger market. The larger the market, the larger the potential profits.
You seem to be making the point as to why Jita exists and why Jita is good. Jita is a large market because it is far more stable than the rest of EVE and the profits there are larger if you can keep up. However, it is for these exact reasons that some of us dislike Jita. You can't have it both ways.
You also seem to be missing my point. By trying to destroy Jita you'd only be making a new Jita. There will always be a "Jita", even if it goes by a different name.
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.06 17:08:00 -
[16]
I actually have been doing research on a "New Jita" for a while. It actually started with the thread about where can someone set up 10 jump buy orders and not hit Low sec systems.
The requirements I had was a little different. As I was looking at a place to setup my own personal "shop" rather then a new hub.
It consisted of the following.
1) A lot of Moons. 2) Must be sec status 0.5, 0.6, or 0.7 3) Must have ICE Belts 4) Must be within 10 jumps of a trade hub.
Bonuses are - Has Factors, has labs, has a corporation that I have a high enough standing with free reprocessing or very close to free etc.
I did find such a system, and a system that a 5 jump range is in the main trade hub and the main mission hub, and there are no low sec systems within 5 jumps so a 5 jump range can be set on all buy/sell orders. It is within 4 jumps it has six regional exists to 3 different regions, and within 10 jumps 20 Regional exists to 5 different regions.
Although this is a great system for a personal shop in terms of location and function, it does only have 1 Station and 2 jump gates.
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2007.10.06 18:14:00 -
[17]
O.k. To me a trading hub should be central to everything, how many places do you know with a big market on the outskirts of town? The same should hold true in Eve, if everyone has to travel the same distance to get to it then more people should go to it. I saw this post then i tabbed back into eve (yay for autopilot) opened up the map, looked for the middle of Eve and somewhere like Andrene seems to be about the middle or maybe Dresi which is a lil bit further to the left but then Eve pokes out a lil to the left.
I'm not a trade or someone who's into manufacturing and i spend my high sec time about 5 jumps from jita but i don't think i've ever been there the prices have never been that much better and it's totally lagtastic baby.
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Kitex
Blacktag Test Labs
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Posted - 2007.10.06 18:22:00 -
[18]
LOL @
Quote: Dear Players,
Jita Star System is causing players to get stuck. Please avoid this star system if at all possible.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.06 20:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Dr Slurm Stability creates a larger market. The larger the market, the larger the potential profits.
You seem to be making the point as to why Jita exists and why Jita is good. Jita is a large market because it is far more stable than the rest of EVE and the profits there are larger if you can keep up. However, it is for these exact reasons that some of us dislike Jita. You can't have it both ways.
If we could magically chunk off a third of jita's population and get them to move elsewhere we could create a competing market. When I say larger market I'm talking across all regions. Not just localized to Jita.
Quote:
You also seem to be missing my point. By trying to destroy Jita you'd only be making a new Jita. There will always be a "Jita", even if it goes by a different name.
I don't want to destroy Jita. It can stay right where it is and continue doing what its doing. I would like to see a second competing market of similar size. I know that sooner or later the newly created hub would become over run, but that is acceptable. Then its just a matter of starting over again in a third location.
Originally by: Daerkannon Shimmerscale Ok, but what about the bulk/volume trader? I go to Jita not because I like it or because I can get the best price there, but because it's the only place that I can go to trade the volumes I deal in in a time frame that doesn't drive me insane.
I can see a secondary hub being setup for ship/module trade and maybe some minerals and other building materials, but frankly for the stuff I deal in Jita is the only place to be and splitting it just makes twice the work for me. Twice the work for 10% more profit doesn't look like a winning equation to me.
If the second hub became popular enough (possibly with people like yourself dropping in and picking up a good deal) it could handle that kind of volume. New players are joining Eve all the time. They have to go somewhere and Jita is getting way too crowded.
Originally by: SencneS I actually have been doing research on a "New Jita" for a while. It actually started with the thread about where can someone set up 10 jump buy orders and not hit Low sec systems.
The requirements I had was a little different. As I was looking at a place to setup my own personal "shop" rather then a new hub.
It consisted of the following.
1) A lot of Moons. 2) Must be sec status 0.5, 0.6, or 0.7 3) Must have ICE Belts 4) Must be within 10 jumps of a trade hub.
Bonuses are - Has Factors, has labs, has a corporation that I have a high enough standing with free reprocessing or very close to free etc.
I did find such a system, and a system that a 5 jump range is in the main trade hub and the main mission hub, and there are no low sec systems within 5 jumps so a 5 jump range can be set on all buy/sell orders. It is within 4 jumps it has six regional exists to 3 different regions, and within 10 jumps 20 Regional exists to 5 different regions.
Although this is a great system for a personal shop in terms of location and function, it does only have 1 Station and 2 jump gates.
I can say with certainty that the most jumps you can set for an order without hitting lowsec is 7 and that system has access to 17 other high sec systems (in the same region) within those 7 jumps. The next best is 7 jumps and 9 systems, but the best is 3 jumps with 34 systems.
I'm thinking a new system for a hub would need to have a lot of gates so as to make it harder for warring corps to lock down the gates and surrounding area. <sig>
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.06 21:00:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Gawain Hill O.k. To me a trading hub should be central to everything, how many places do you know with a big market on the outskirts of town? The same should hold true in Eve, if everyone has to travel the same distance to get to it then more people should go to it. I saw this post then i tabbed back into eve (yay for autopilot) opened up the map, looked for the middle of Eve and somewhere like Andrene seems to be about the middle or maybe Dresi which is a lil bit further to the left but then Eve pokes out a lil to the left.
I'm not a trade or someone who's into manufacturing and i spend my high sec time about 5 jumps from jita but i don't think i've ever been there the prices have never been that much better and it's totally lagtastic baby.
Ever heard of outlet malls? BTW looking at the map isn't going to tell you anything, it would need an indepth query into the database. <sig>
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.10.06 21:14:00 -
[21]
There are already smaller hubs that have nearly every item. There are just so many items in the game that to make sure someplace is stocked with them all would take a massive coordinated effort. More than every regular poster on this forum combined could do. I just do not see how the level of effort would possibly pay off.
The only way to get people to go to the new hub would be to offer either higher buying prices or lower selling prices. Why would any rich trader want to lose profits like this and suffer from lower sales while trying to build the hub up?
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.06 21:36:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dr Slurm on 06/10/2007 21:37:19
Originally by: Shadarle There are already smaller hubs that have nearly every item. There are just so many items in the game that to make sure someplace is stocked with them all would take a massive coordinated effort. More than every regular poster on this forum combined could do. I just do not see how the level of effort would possibly pay off.
The only way to get people to go to the new hub would be to offer either higher buying prices or lower selling prices. Why would any rich trader want to lose profits like this and suffer from lower sales while trying to build the hub up?
Long term goals. Larger market, larger profit. Nothing to say traders couldn't trade in both the new hub and jita which would maximize their profits.
I work at a cab company that I own part of. Drivers typically only think about the short term how much is my paycheck, how much am I booking on the meter. They don't often consider the long term goals of growing the business so that we have more fares in a larger area. Whereas I understand that even though it was slow the last couple of months (because of summer) its still important to provide a high level of service ramping up for winter, when we are the busiest. Whereas the drivers would prefer to have fewer cabs on the road so they make more money.
Short term they might be making more money that day in the summer if we pull a bunch of cabs off the road, but long term the whole company looses because we lost good will with customers we didn't service properly.
My Trojan analogy is the perfect argument for this. If you can't see it I don't really care. This will probably never get off the ground anyways. <sig>
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Shiva Shakti
Gallente Hi-Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.06 22:10:00 -
[23]
Thats good idea (tonight Jita froze for a lot of people)
There a simple answer...bring back Yulai, as least there wasn't mission running and all that stuff going on there and I don't seem to remember there being lag there (certainly not to compare with Jita's)
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Crayon Fusillade
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Posted - 2007.10.06 23:07:00 -
[24]
People are talking about having a new trade hub on the outskirts of a region or between other trade hubs. What would be the problem in having a new trade hub 1 or 2 jumps away from Jita?
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.06 23:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Crayon Fusillade People are talking about having a new trade hub on the outskirts of a region or between other trade hubs. What would be the problem in having a new trade hub 1 or 2 jumps away from Jita?
Jita would still have a large effect on it. Which would counteract the point of having a competing market. <sig>
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Fabricati Diem
Burleigh and Strong
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Posted - 2007.10.07 02:40:00 -
[26]
Random thoughts:
New York and Hong Kong both do massive amounts of business. There is probably enough trade in Jita that it could lose a large enough amount to create a new hub, and still remain all that is Jita.
There will likely be a large amount if instability in the initial stages of a new hub. In the unlikely event the majority of trade moved from Jita to a new location, there would be even more instability and price fluctuation.
Given a location, the next step would be massive amounts of minerals and moon materials. There are suppliers and shippers reading this as well as traders. Anyone that wanted to be a part could 'sponsor' part of the market by agreeing to either supply, move, or buy-for-resale a given amount of raw material. For a profit, of course.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.10.07 02:50:00 -
[27]
The biggest problem is that everyone who helps make it a bigger market will be making less money while everyone who doesn't help will make more money. So it is more beneficial to not help and make more money. Then you'll still benefit if the people get the new hub up and running in theory. And if they don't? Well, you're still making good money and they all wasted a few months.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.10.07 03:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shadarle The biggest problem is that everyone who helps make it a bigger market will be making less money while everyone who doesn't help will make more money. So it is more beneficial to not help and make more money. Then you'll still benefit if the people get the new hub up and running in theory. And if they don't? Well, you're still making good money and they all wasted a few months.
You know how you are always whining you have extra ISK kicking around that you want to invest?
This would be the reason to invest in a new market. You can't tell me you get the same margin between all the regions you trade in. I know I certainly don't. So some are better then others. This new region wouldn't start as the most profitable place to trade but you wouldn't have to loose anything my moving there and setting up another shop.
You don't have to sacrifice one option to pursue another. Thus the growing of you operation.
I keep saying this, larger market, larger profit. <sig>
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.10.07 04:04:00 -
[29]
Unfortunately that has nothing to do with the way I trade, so expanding like this wouldn't be horizontal but vertical. This is definitely not something I'd be able to facilitate, it would rely on people who leave their stations.
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Estate
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Posted - 2007.10.07 06:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dr Slurm You know how you are always whining you have extra ISK kicking around that you want to invest?
You don't have to sacrifice one option to pursue another. Thus the growing of you operation.
I keep saying this, larger market, larger profit.
I think this idea is great, but there would have to be a very strong group of building material suppliers as well as resellers, as someone already mentioned. Also, we shouldn't underestimate the power of mission hubs. Missions hubs bring carebears, which have tons of useless crap modules, which attracts recyclers, which creates minerals, which attracts builders, who then make modules and ships which attracts everyone else. The station chosen for this would almost -have- to be a strong mission hub for a major faction in order to succeed.
Otherwise we're working against the natural flow of things instead of with it.
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